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trotsky

(49,533 posts)
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 12:25 PM Nov 2016

This message was self-deleted by its author

This message was self-deleted by its author (trotsky) on Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:01 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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This message was self-deleted by its author (Original Post) trotsky Nov 2016 OP
Frank Gaffney and Daniel Pipes are, in fact, anti-Muslim extremists. The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2016 #1
Maajid Nawaz is most assuredly not. trotsky Nov 2016 #12
I don't know anything about Maajid Nawaz, The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2016 #31
I'm not disputing that. trotsky Nov 2016 #34
Since I wouldn't know Maajid Nawaz if he turned up on my doorstep, The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2016 #37
Is the Atlantic a right-wing source? trotsky Nov 2016 #41
No, but their article specifically discusses only the inclusion of Maajid Nawaz The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2016 #43
And as I've mentioned, I don't give a shit about those other people. trotsky Nov 2016 #49
The Tablet is a hard-line Likudnik rag regnaD kciN Nov 2016 #51
The attack on President Obama is disgusting. stone space Nov 2016 #2
From the squealing, it sounds like the SPLC hit the mark. rug Nov 2016 #5
I appreciate the work of the SPLC greatly. Goblinmonger Nov 2016 #15
No, I think that list was very well thought out. rug Nov 2016 #47
Based on the responses so far, I would say that this particular attempt guillaumeb Nov 2016 #8
I am merely presenting an article. trotsky Nov 2016 #11
But your "editorial selection" of what articles to present, guillaumeb Nov 2016 #18
Much like someone who celebrates creationists? Goblinmonger Nov 2016 #19
Links to my posts celebrating creationists? guillaumeb Nov 2016 #21
Oh, you know Goblinmonger Nov 2016 #23
An accusation? guillaumeb Nov 2016 #25
I don't care about your personal attacks. Please answer my question. trotsky Nov 2016 #27
Pointing out your tactics and agenda is not a personal attack. guillaumeb Nov 2016 #29
Yes we've identified my awful agenda of wanting to discuss religion in the Religion group. trotsky Nov 2016 #38
Did you read the SPLC on your so-called 'reform-minded Muslim'? procon Nov 2016 #39
Yeah, I did. trotsky Nov 2016 #50
He has a long and colorful -- if somewhat fictional and self-serving -- history. procon Nov 2016 #55
And that means he should be branded an "anti-Muslim extremist"? trotsky Nov 2016 #57
As pointed out you are wrong about Geller. Goblinmonger Nov 2016 #17
I did not see Geller's name on the link. guillaumeb Nov 2016 #20
And they might be wrong about some of them once in a while Goblinmonger Nov 2016 #22
Agreed. I am not arguing the appropriateness of every name. guillaumeb Nov 2016 #24
Neither is trotsky in the OP. Goblinmonger Nov 2016 #26
This message was self-deleted by its author cpwm17 Nov 2016 #9
trotsky saidsimplesimon Nov 2016 #30
Seriously, why are we passing along rightwing propaganda? procon Nov 2016 #33
Look, I'm not posting this as right-wing propaganda. trotsky Nov 2016 #36
This guy is a neocon shill. procon Nov 2016 #52
OK enemies lists it is then. trotsky Nov 2016 #56
What Does Maajid Nawaz Really Believe? struggle4progress Nov 2016 #45
The OP seems to be a rightwing hit piece from Lee Smith, senior editor at the Weekly Standard struggle4progress Nov 2016 #46
I thought a discussion could be had about why such a range of individuals... trotsky Nov 2016 #58
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The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,520 posts)
1. Frank Gaffney and Daniel Pipes are, in fact, anti-Muslim extremists.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 12:30 PM
Nov 2016

And the last sentence, shown in bold type, is just ridiculous. I don't know what this publication is or who's writing it, but it sounds pretty right-wing to me.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,520 posts)
31. I don't know anything about Maajid Nawaz,
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:49 PM
Nov 2016

or why he was included, but Pipes and Gaffney are well-known for their anti-Muslim extremism, and the SPLC was entirely justified in putting them on the list.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
34. I'm not disputing that.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:57 PM
Nov 2016

I'm asking why a pro-reform Muslim has been blacklisted along with those individuals.

Why?

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,520 posts)
37. Since I wouldn't know Maajid Nawaz if he turned up on my doorstep,
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:02 PM
Nov 2016

you are asking the wrong person. However, I ran his name through the Google machine and found this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/10/maajid-nawaz-splc-anti-muslim-extremist/505685/

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
41. Is the Atlantic a right-wing source?
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:10 PM
Nov 2016

They appear to be asking the same question I am.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,520 posts)
43. No, but their article specifically discusses only the inclusion of Maajid Nawaz
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:18 PM
Nov 2016

on the SPLC list. The article you cited, however, contains the following statement:

The SPLC blacklist list contains practicing Muslims like Maajid Nawaz, ex-Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, foreign-policy think-tankers like Frank Gaffney and Daniel Pipes, and right-wing firebrands like David Horowitz—none of whom could be reasonably described as anti-Muslim bigots.


But Frank Gaffney and Daniel Pipes are not merely "foreign policy think-tankers," nor is David Horowitz merely a "right-wing firebrand." All of them actually are anti-Muslim bigots, and proud of it. This is why I questioned the apparent right-wing slant of the article.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
49. And as I've mentioned, I don't give a shit about those other people.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:40 PM
Nov 2016

I am particularly concerned about what had been a fantastic organization (SPLC) all of a sudden "branding" people for wildly inconsistent reasons. This doesn't make me right-wing, but perhaps it will make me a member of an enemies list as well. I just don't know.

regnaD kciN

(26,044 posts)
51. The Tablet is a hard-line Likudnik rag
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:45 PM
Nov 2016
 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
2. The attack on President Obama is disgusting.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 12:36 PM
Nov 2016
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
5. From the squealing, it sounds like the SPLC hit the mark.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 12:49 PM
Nov 2016
 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
15. I appreciate the work of the SPLC greatly.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:23 PM
Nov 2016

But certainly there is at least one name on the list that doesn't belong. You agree, right? And, if so, why is it not OK to criticize something an otherwise awesome organization does? Much like you and Charlie Hedbo? They are a group of liberal satirists that did something you didn't like. So you get to criticize them. Why not the same standard for the SPLC?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
47. No, I think that list was very well thought out.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:32 PM
Nov 2016

The SPLC has a long history and a well-earned reputation. Charlie Hebdo has a shorter history but its own reputation is also well-earned.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
8. Based on the responses so far, I would say that this particular attempt
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 01:52 PM
Nov 2016

to promote your position is not going very well for you.

The SPLC is noted for its work in the field of hate organizations. Your post shows little understanding of what the SPLC does, and even less understanding about what hate speech is.

And this:

These men and women have shamelessly exploited terrorist attacks and the Syrian refugee crisis, among other things, to demonize the entire Islamic faith.


can be used to describe what appears to be an entire industry of Islamophobes and bigots. I am surprised however, that Pamela Geller's name is not mentioned in this article.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
11. I am merely presenting an article.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:15 PM
Nov 2016

You can attack the source all you want. And I don't deny there are genuine Islamophobic bigots out there. But we should indeed question why someone like Maajid Nawaz, who is actually a reform-minded Muslim, is on this list with them.

Shouldn't we?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
18. But your "editorial selection" of what articles to present,
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:25 PM
Nov 2016

and what sources you choose from, indicates something, does it not?

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
19. Much like someone who celebrates creationists?
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:26 PM
Nov 2016

Just sayin'.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
21. Links to my posts celebrating creationists?
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:29 PM
Nov 2016

I am assuming that your reference to creationists is an implication that I am a Biblical literalist.

I am not, but I take no issue with any person's personal beliefs.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
23. Oh, you know
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:32 PM
Nov 2016

the one where you or your buddies got my post hidden for pointing that out. That one.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
25. An accusation?
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:35 PM
Nov 2016

I have never used the alert feature here in my time here. I dislike the feature. Nor would I suggest to anyone that alerting is a good idea.

If there were an actual threat, that might be a different matter. But insults are part of engaging people.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
27. I don't care about your personal attacks. Please answer my question.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:38 PM
Nov 2016

Why is Maajid Nawaz on this list?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
29. Pointing out your tactics and agenda is not a personal attack.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:47 PM
Nov 2016

It is an observation.

And your question should properly be directed to someone who complied the list. I also would question his inclusion. This below,

Why I, as a Muslim, believe the veil must be barred in our schools: A provocative view from Islamic thinker fighting for Glenda Jackson's seat


can be read at the link. One could make the argument that this call for banning the veil is an attack on the rights of Muslim students.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2508476/Maajid-Nawaz-Why-I-Muslim-believe-veil-barred-

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
38. Yes we've identified my awful agenda of wanting to discuss religion in the Religion group.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:03 PM
Nov 2016

Guilty as charged. Continuing to attack me with the constant refrain of me having "tactics and agenda" is tiresome and pathetic. It tells me that you are wholly unable to support your position with facts and must lash out.

The guy made an argument for not allowing veils in schools. How exactly does qualify him as an "anti-Muslim extremist"?

procon

(15,805 posts)
39. Did you read the SPLC on your so-called 'reform-minded Muslim'?
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:03 PM
Nov 2016

Seems like a his agenda is somewhat more akin to a avaricious grifter out to line his own pockets.

https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/field-guide-anti-muslim-extremists#gaffney

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
50. Yeah, I did.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:42 PM
Nov 2016

And I still have questions: What about that makes him an "anti-Muslim extremist" that needs to be lumped in with people like Pam Geller? Can you please tell me?

procon

(15,805 posts)
55. He has a long and colorful -- if somewhat fictional and self-serving -- history.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:55 PM
Nov 2016

There are several indepth articles chronicling his act, I linked to one in my reply below. Read them, not just the glitterati puff pieces, but the hard nosed articles that dig past the easy applause lines.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
57. And that means he should be branded an "anti-Muslim extremist"?
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:57 PM
Nov 2016

Equated with individuals like Pam Geller? Please help me understand. What is going on here?

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
17. As pointed out you are wrong about Geller.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:24 PM
Nov 2016

And, why can't the be criticized by people on DU for putting a name on the list that has no reason to be there?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
20. I did not see Geller's name on the link.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:26 PM
Nov 2016

The SPLC is taking a stand against hate speech. Sometimes that stand might make some people uncomfortable and resentful.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
22. And they might be wrong about some of them once in a while
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:31 PM
Nov 2016

I agree that they are wrong about one of them in this instance. (Hint: it's not Geller)

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
24. Agreed. I am not arguing the appropriateness of every name.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:33 PM
Nov 2016

That is up to the SPLC.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
26. Neither is trotsky in the OP.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:37 PM
Nov 2016

So why do you come at him like he is. He is talking about one specific name all other this thread. I tend to agree with him that that name doesn't belong on there. If you don't know anything about that person, that's fine. But then stop making it sound like trotsky is trying to support anti-Muslim hate groups. Because he isn't. To say he is would be an actual straw man argument.

Response to trotsky (Original post)

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
30. trotsky
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:47 PM
Nov 2016

I support the Southern Poverty Law Center. I will flag this for research and appropriate response, after the election.

procon

(15,805 posts)
33. Seriously, why are we passing along rightwing propaganda?
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 02:56 PM
Nov 2016

This should have been a tip; "foreign-policy think-tankers like Frank Gaffney", yeah? And then there us this gem, "the world’s most influential anti-Muslim extremist—President Barack Obama".

Who makes up this shit? The writer is Lee Smith, someone whose bio lists him as a senior editor at the Weekly Standard and a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute, and now its here on DU!

Read the SPLCs article on Frank Gaffney, think-tanker extraordinaire:

https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/field-guide-anti-muslim-extremists#gaffney


Frank Gaffney Jr. is a former Reagan administration defense official who is gripped by paranoid fantasies about Muslims destroying the West from within, suspicious that Barack Obama was actually born in Kenya, and...

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
36. Look, I'm not posting this as right-wing propaganda.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:00 PM
Nov 2016

Please feel free to analyze my entire posting history if you think I'm some secret right-wing troll. I think you will find the complete opposite.

I'm asking here why someone like Maajid Nawaz is put on a list of "anti-Muslim extremists."

What purpose does this serve? Shouldn't we analyze this? Who will be blacklisted next?

procon

(15,805 posts)
52. This guy is a neocon shill.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:48 PM
Nov 2016

Since you omitted any personal commentary in your OP, readers will tend to think that you agreed with the subject as presented. I have no way to know your intent, history or purchase other that what I see, but having done a bit of research on the fellow, by my own analysis, I agree with the SPLC.


Among the contacts Nawaz made through Pandith was the Gen Next Foundation, a philanthropic network closely aligned with the neoconservative wing of the Republican Party, which helped set up Quilliam’s American branch. Since 2011, the Quilliam Foundation’s American offices have been physically shared with Gen Next. Gen Next executive members include senior Bush administration officials and Tea Party activists such as Adam Stryker, vice-president of Americans for Prosperity, the fundraising super PAC that functions as the main political arm of the billionaire Koch brothers.



And:


As he followed the money, Nawaz drifted further into the reaches of the neoconservative infrastructure. He was hailed by the neoconservative Gatestone Institute, whose senior fellows are a gallery of Islamophobes from John Bolton... The Bradley Foundation, one of the right-wing organizations identified by the Center for American Progress as a top sponsor of America’s burgeoning Islamophobia industry, gave Nawaz’s Quilliam Foundation $75,000.
(



http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/self-invention-maajid-nawaz-fact-and-fiction-life-counter-terror-celebrity

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
56. OK enemies lists it is then.
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:56 PM
Nov 2016

BTW - I suggest you read the comments section of that article.

struggle4progress

(118,196 posts)
45. What Does Maajid Nawaz Really Believe?
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:28 PM
Nov 2016

BY NATHAN LEAN
January 27, 2016

... Nawaz broke ranks with Hizb ut-Tahrir the same week that his Newham College classmate and ex-party member, Ed Husain, rose to quasi-stardom with the publication of his kiss-and-tell memoir, The Islamist, a stirring defection story of a Muslim extremist who had come clean ...

Nawaz has said that his approach is one of dialogue and seeking common ground. That’s music to the ears of many who are turned off by polarized debates about religion and politics. Yet for all the right notes that he hits (public “conversations” with controversial figures, and calls to reject racial profiling) Nawaz’s stated mission is at odds with many of his actions. He’s wheedled Western politicos who advocate draconian policies that target Muslims, and he indulges the worst offenders when it comes to anti-Muslim prejudice ...

Some of his most vocal supporters .. include New Atheists that seem to take great pleasure in lambasting Islam. There’s a strong current of affection that flows between Nawaz and Sam Harris, who calls the religion the “mother lode of bad ideas” and has advocated racial profiling and torture (Harris has donated $20,000 to Quilliam). HBO’s Bill Maher, famously hostile toward Islam, wished that there were “a thousand” of Nawaz, while Richard Dawkins (“to hell with their culture”) lauded him as a “truly moral & brave man,” and urged his online flock to support Nawaz’s failed 2015 parliamentary bid. The ex-Islamist has even cozied up to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali-born activist who once tagged the Muslim faith as a “nihilistic cult of death” that should be “defeated” by any means necessary, including militarily.

That Nawaz enjoys the company of such a galère isn’t the problem. He’s not guilty by association. He’s guilty of giving life to their extreme ideas. In 2009, when his Quilliam associate Ed Husain advocated spying on British Muslims, Nawaz chalked the ensuing controversy up to the bellyaching of a “pro-Islamist brigade.” The next year, he sent the country’s security and terror chief a McCarthy-esque list of Muslim groups that the government should be wary of lest their non-violent views morph into violent ones. Nawaz’s organization, along with a software company, developed “radicalization keywords” used in a computer program that monitored the Internet searches of school kids and flagged would-be extremists for investigation. And Tommy Robinson, the former leader of the far-right, anti-Muslim English Defence League, alleged Quilliam paid him thousands of pounds to resign in a move that many saw as a bribe: Robinson stepped down, and Quilliam took credit for bringing about his departure. The money, Robinson said, went to pay “my wife’s rent and help with basic bills, <and> in return Tommy Robinson would be their poster boy” ...


https://newrepublic.com/article/128436/maajid-nawaz-really-believe

Maybe he's nothing but an opportunist who's found a way to make a living by cuddling with bigots


struggle4progress

(118,196 posts)
46. The OP seems to be a rightwing hit piece from Lee Smith, senior editor at the Weekly Standard
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 03:30 PM
Nov 2016

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
58. I thought a discussion could be had about why such a range of individuals...
Wed Nov 2, 2016, 04:00 PM
Nov 2016

are being put on an "anti-Muslim extremist" blacklist.

I was wrong.

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