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Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:08 AM

 

Muslim prison chaplains 'encouraging murder of non-believers'

More than 10% of Muslim chaplains distribute hateful Islamist literature.

At this rate, hard to see how wars of (ir)religion won't be back in Europe?

Muslim prison chaplains have routinely distributed Islamist literature, according to a leaked report.

A review which started in September, commissioned by Justice Secretary Michael Gove, found extremist pamphlets and CDs in more than 10 jails in November.

The material included homophobic and misogynistic sentiments and encouraged the murder of apostates - Muslims who leave or reject the religion, according to the Times.

The report on what was found has not yet been cleared for publication.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/muslim-prison-chaplains-encouraging-murder-of-non-believers-a6990441.html

28 replies, 1666 views

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Reply Muslim prison chaplains 'encouraging murder of non-believers' (Original post)
Albertoo Apr 2016 OP
Cartoonist Apr 2016 #1
Albertoo Apr 2016 #2
trotsky Apr 2016 #7
Albertoo Apr 2016 #9
Igel Apr 2016 #13
trotsky Apr 2016 #14
rug Apr 2016 #3
Albertoo Apr 2016 #4
rug Apr 2016 #5
Albertoo Apr 2016 #6
rug Apr 2016 #8
Albertoo Apr 2016 #10
rug Apr 2016 #11
Albertoo Apr 2016 #17
jonno99 Apr 2016 #12
Albertoo Apr 2016 #18
jonno99 Apr 2016 #21
Albertoo Apr 2016 #23
RussBLib Apr 2016 #15
rug Apr 2016 #16
Albertoo Apr 2016 #19
rug Apr 2016 #20
Major Nikon Apr 2016 #22
Albertoo Apr 2016 #24
Major Nikon Apr 2016 #25
Albertoo Apr 2016 #26
Major Nikon Apr 2016 #27
Albertoo Apr 2016 #28

Response to Albertoo (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:43 AM

1. Gideons encourage stoning

The material included homophobic and misogynistic sentiments.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:46 AM

2. I suppose you yourself can see the difference

 

Distributing the Gideons Bible is like distributing the Pickthall Quran:
both texts are asinine, but so self contradictory and long to read that it doesn't quite matter.

While distributing jihadi pamphlets is spreading condensed interpretations of the 'holy' book with a violent bent. Refined heroin compared to poppy seeds.

In more pragmatic terms: very few Christians reading the Gideon Bible will feel an urge to stone adulterers or blasphemers. I wouldn't guarantee the same about radicalized Muslim inmates in Europe.

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:04 AM

7. I dunno, there are still a number of Christians today who want to kill adulterers and blasphemers.

(And homosexuals, and abortion providers, etc.)

What proportion of Christianity are they? What proportion of Islam are the radicals who want to kill people? I think Christianity may be marginally better only because it's been around several hundred years longer, and has had more time (and specific historical events) that softened it in the West, or at least the most common forms of it.

But because those verses are still there, still part of a book that is lauded even by moderate and liberal Christians as the "word of god," they are still dangerous. Same with the Koran.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:11 AM

9. Oh yes, the 'holy' books are all bad, but Christianity has been beaten back longer and harder

 

Christianity did demonstrate it could act in an extremely repulsive fashion. Pope Francis still carries that flag high (no a word for homosexuals during his tour in Africa)

However, there would be a possible case for saying that among the 'holy' texts, the Quran is as bad as the Old Testament, therefore clearly worse than the vague hippie New Testament. "Kill the infidels" has a stronger flavor than "turn the other cheek".

Anyway, in the here and now, what this article indicates is that the radical branch of Islam is more systematically active than fundamentalist Christians. You don't have 10% of Christian chaplains distributing literature calling their flock to regard favorably acts of violence on apostates and gays.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 12:47 PM

13. They're very, very few.

And utterly isolated, except possibly through social media.

There are more that want them killed, but by the law. As opposed to being empowered to do the executions themselves or by their gangs. (Unless we want to just call the state and federal governments "gangs".)

Xians have a nice cover for not enforcing anything that they or their leaders don't want that even the most profoundly dull can ken. For Muslims, it takes a bit more sophistry to get there--the mechanism is the same ("later revelation supersedes earlier revelation", but showing what's later and earlier and why supersession is required in each case is tougher. At no point can you point and say Muhammed said his kingdom isn't of this world, or that he died to liberate us from the earlier bits (which is where all most of the "kill the kafir!" is).

Then, of course, you do have to deal with the later bits. The moderation texts alway presuppose domination. So you don't kill X, as long as they don't get uppity and continue to pay their infidel poll tax, or if they leave in peace with you across a border. Of course, this leaves unaddressed the question, What happens if they don't pay the poll tax and do get uppity? Or if they're not living in peace with your natio, ummatuka? Note the rhetoric used by the jihadists in this regard. The moderation texts' majority interpretation today presupposes good will and tolerance and a predisposition not to fight, not to feel the humiliation. But if you're already feeling humiliated, it's easy to displace that humilation to somebody else--in US poltics we do it all the time. (Just look at the Confederate statue issue, school names issue, etc. If not for an underlying sense of being wronged, few would seek out to destroy 100 or 150 year old symbols. They're secondary: current status and economics count for more, but movement on those fronts is largely stalled.)

The Israelite theocracy's take was clear: You fight them in YHWH's name. Mostly the Israelite theocracy is taken as dead and not (yet?) restored. The Xian "theocracy's" take is clear, as well: When persecuted, turn the other cheek; pray for the kingdom to come. (Of course, some are convinced that the kingdom has come and they are the weapon of god; oy.). And some have culturally appropriated the 1970s reconstructionist movement and made it from a grass-roots kind of thing to a top-down imposed new world order. And, yeah, think of that as being a kind of erlebte Rede.)

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Response to Igel (Reply #13)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:02 PM

14. I would probably dispute your "isolated" description of those Christians.

I mean, what about the "kill the gays" pastor who shared the stage with a major party presidential candidate?

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/03/video-reveals-pastor-calls-for-execution-of-gays-then-introduces-ted-cruz-on-stage/

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Response to Albertoo (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:13 AM

3. From the author of Celsius 7/7.

 



Michael Gove makes John Ashcroft look like John Marshall. Gee, I wonder who leaked this unpublished report. The math in the leak does not even support the headline.

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Response to rug (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:42 AM

4. The report was carried by the London Times which is in the habit of checking its facts

 

And Michael Grove did not write the report, he commissioned it.
But I can see your determination to discard the report's contents.
So, all is well, I suppose, and Europe is not at risk from Islamism.

The concept of religion appears to be very dear to you. Do you know why?

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #4)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:50 AM

5. Do post that link then so we can all check the facts.

 

The concept of religion appears to be very abhorrent to you. Do you know why?

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Response to rug (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:04 AM

6. Religions have books full of contradictions which teach nothing new, except violence they create

 

There is nothing valuable in the Abrahamic books which is not common place. The golden rule is universal (and yet is not even mentioned in the Quran). While religions create strife, in the form of in-groups and out-groups: the chosen people, jesus saves, Muslims are the best of creatures, etc.

Now that I answered my own question which you turned back at me, will you answer my two original questions? 1/ why do you think religion is valuable when there is no 'holy' book which makes sense, and 2/ do you challenge the gist of the UK prisons report findings, i.e. that Muslim inmates in Britain (and probably elsewhere in Europe) are being worked by Islamist recruiters?

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #6)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:09 AM

8. Do you have that Times' link yet?

 

I prefer to discuss facts rather than obvious, unoriginal opinions.

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Response to rug (Reply #8)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:15 AM

10. I make efforts only for honest debaters

 

You asked me my own question. I made the first step, answering, and reiterated my question.
No answer, just a haughty assessment.

I'm afraid you'll have to do what I would have done for you given an answer:
you google for the Times link by yourself.

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #10)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 12:22 PM

11. Me too.

 

The key word being honest.

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Response to rug (Reply #11)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:33 PM

17. That's why I used it

 

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #6)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 12:27 PM

12. "There is nothing valuable..." Sounds like an opinion: 'one man's trash is another man's treasure' -

that sort of thing.

While religions create strife...
Correlation does not necessarily equal causation. However, there is a common thread to all "strife" - can you identify it?

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Response to jonno99 (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:44 PM

18. I would be delighted to learn I'm wrong here

 

Show me where a religion has brought something that was not already known to mankind and already fairly well distributed.

As for the strife, it's apparently inherent to abrahamic religions as they all appear to clearly delineate the in and out groups: us vs them. But then again, I am all ears if you can show me that Islam is inclusive of unbelievers or that Jesus will save those who do not believe in him (for that Jesus part, I am sure you are aware lots of apologetic literature firmly states it's Jesus's way or the highway)

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #18)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:27 AM

21. "As for the strife, it's apparently inherent to abrahamic religions..." Is that surprising?

Strife can be found in most any human activity where opinions differ - from politics to sports, to the sciences both hard and soft. Why should we expect religion to be free from strife?

As far as inclusivity or exclusivity, why should this be an issue when we are trying to arrive at truth? When I replace the break pads on my car, there is only one way for the calipers to fit. And if I find myself lost in a cave, should I rail against the unfairness of there being only one way to get out?

Show me where a religion has brought something that was not already known to mankind and already fairly well distributed.
You've mentioned Jesus a few times. I'm curious, can you provide an example of a fundamental claim he made that was "already known... and...fairly well distributed"?

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Response to jonno99 (Reply #21)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:56 PM

23. Surely you jest

 

You mentioned sports. Tennis or golf players shake hands at the end of a match. You don't see Tiger Woods saying Rory McIlroy that he's an infidel who must pay the jizzya with willing submission. You don't see Fernando Alonso (a high priest in the Holy Church of McLaren) say it's McLaren or the highway, and that Kimi Räikkönen and Ferrari are infidels which will burn in F1 hell. Nothing is as gratuitously divisive as religion.

You've mentioned Jesus a few times. I'm curious, can you provide an example of a fundamental claim he made that was "already known... and...fairly well distributed"?

Since all gospels are at least half copied from Mark (who was he?), and since Mark contains obvious mistakes (geography) and tall tales (healings, resurrection), I would like to know what part of the gospels are quotes of a real Mr Jesus. And then which quotes you consider to be both reliable and bringing innovative moral insights.

To be fair, I like the story of Jesus and the woman taken in adultery
If only because it kind of nullifies the Old Testament and the Quran.
Alas, I hear it's probably not even an authentic part of the original John
(John whose book must have been written under the influence of serious weed smoking)

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Response to Albertoo (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:18 PM

15. when in fact it's the weak-minded believers

who should be eliminated. You notice I said "eliminated" and not "murdered."

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Response to RussBLib (Reply #15)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:32 PM

16. How do you think they should be eliminated?

 

What's your solution?

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Response to rug (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:45 PM

19. Education

 

Evolution is a good cure for the Adam myth which Islam clings on to for dear life.

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:48 PM

20. What's his?

 

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Response to Albertoo (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:18 PM

22. Threatening apostates is a defining feature of cults

It should also be pointed out the Christian bible also has a pretty dim view of apostasy.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #22)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:59 PM

24. But the 'Bible' is two books which contradict each other

 

‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’ 8 And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus straightened up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ 11 She said, ‘No one, sir.’ And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.’

is a 'slight' contradiction of the injunctions to stone adulterers and blasphemers in the OT.

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #24)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 12:32 AM

25. Even both of those books individually frequently contradict themselves

For example, Matthew and Luke both give different genealogies for Jesus, neither of which qualify him as the messiah, not to mention that Jesus was allegedly fathered by the holy poltergeist, which would also disqualify him as the messiah.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #25)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 12:36 AM

26. Oh yes, absolutely

 

The 4 versions of the 'resurrection' are all different:
zero, one, two angels, zero, two, four women, take your pick.

As for the genealogies, they go through Joseph who didn't have hanky panky with Mary.
It's Mr Holy Spirit who had the fun (and should be stoned for adultery with Mrs Mary)

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #26)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 12:43 AM

27. Here's the really fun part

Matthew and Luke are the only two gospels which even mention a virgin birth and one of those refers to Jesus as the "son of Joseph".

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #27)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 07:01 AM

28. It goes on: the 'virgin birth' is due to a misplaced mistranslation

 

It tries to link Mr Jesus (if he existed) to Isaiah 7:14 which may or may not refer to a virgin edpending on the translation of the word almah, and which anyway did not refer to a 'messiah' so far later after Isaiah.

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