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Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
Thu Oct 8, 2015, 11:05 PM Oct 2015

We Need to Talk About Islamís Jihadism Problem

We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
It’s time to confront Islamism head on—without cries of Islamophobia. Holding Islam up to scrutiny, rationally and ethically, must not be confused with anti-Muslim bigotry.

Talking about Islam today is a dangerous business. Disagreements about the role this religion plays in the world have become a wellspring of intolerance and violence. Cartoonists have been massacred in Paris to shouts of “We have avenged the Prophet!” Secular bloggers have been hacked to death in Bangladesh. (..)

For years, Western politicians and commentators have struggled to understand this phenomenon. And many have struggled not to understand it, denying any link between “Muslim extremism” and the religion of Islam.(..)

What most discussions of “Muslim extremism” miss, and what is obfuscated at every turn by commentators like Glenn Greenwald, Reza Aslan, Karen Armstrong—and even Nicholas Kristof and Ben Affleck—is the power of specific religious ideas such as martyrdom, apostasy, blasphemy, prophecy, and honor. These ideas do not represent the totality of Islam, but neither are they foreign to it. Nor do they exist in precisely the same way in other faiths. (..)

The underlying ideology—we call it “Islamism”—has metastasized and must be confronted directly. After more than a decade of conventional, physical wars, we must finally wage an effective war of ideas. Islamism, often referred to as “political Islam,” is the desire to impose a version of Islam on the rest of society. (..) After more than a decade of conventional, physical wars, we must finally wage an effective war of ideas.

Political Islam is an offshoot of religious Islam and draws much of its inspiration from the Quran and the hadith (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad). To be sure, it does not represent the faith in all its forms, but unless challenged, the underlying problems of religious literalism, dogmatism, and pious intolerance are left untreated and continue to spread. A poll in 2014, published in the Saudi-owned newspaper al-Hayat, found that 92 percent of Saudis believe that ISIS “conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law.” Clearly, ISIS has something to do with Islam. (..)

Of course, the Bible contains barbaric passages, as well. But there are historical and theological reasons why Christians and Jews can now easily ignore them. Unfortunately, out of excessive concern not to appear biased, many liberals consider any discussion of the special problem posed by Islamism to be a sign of bigotry. This attitude helps bar the door to reform.

To call ISIS “un-Islamic,” as President Obama has repeatedly done, and as Prime Minister Cameron recently stopped doing, is to play a dangerous game with words. Calling out and combating the ideology of Islamism is the only way that non-Muslims can help those liberal Muslims who wish to reform their faith from within. And failing to do so means abandoning the most vulnerable in Muslim communities—women, gays, apostates, freethinkers, (..)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/15/we-need-to-talk-about-islam-s-jihad-problem.html
We Need to Talk About Islamís Jihadism Problem (Original Post) Yorktown Oct 2015 OP
Why limit it to Islam? Cartoonist Oct 2015 #1
Just say it: Sam Harris is a racist warmonger bananas Oct 2015 #3
Excuse me? Cartoonist Oct 2015 #4
The article in the OP was written by Sam Harris. bananas Oct 2015 #5
Then respond to the OP Cartoonist Oct 2015 #7
No mistake, I was responding to you. nt bananas Oct 2015 #9
Could you elaborate? Cartoonist Oct 2015 #10
And it was also written by Maajid Nawaz. Who are you saying he's racist against? muriel_volestrangler Oct 2015 #17
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, former Muslim, is apparently racist against Muslims too. trotsky Oct 2015 #18
I heard Leslie Hazelton (white) call Ayaan Hirsi Ali (black) a racist Yorktown Oct 2015 #29
That appears to be the desired effect. trotsky Oct 2015 #34
Ayaan Hirsi Ali: a war promoter and the darling of right-wing war-mongering atheists cpwm17 Oct 2015 #31
But is she racist against Muslims? trotsky Oct 2015 #33
I wouldn't think so. cpwm17 Oct 2015 #35
Do you think her experience growing up Muslim should be dismissed? n/t trotsky Oct 2015 #36
She is just one person out of over 1.5 billion people that have grown up Muslim cpwm17 Oct 2015 #37
Would you say she lies more or less than Reza Aslan? n/t trotsky Oct 2015 #38
Cenk Uygur on Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and to a lesser extent Sam Harris: cpwm17 Oct 2015 #32
Islam is a race? trotsky Oct 2015 #11
Heh! Usually I see this arguement in the form... stone space Oct 2015 #12
Are you really loading up with "Islam is a race" ammo? cleanhippie Oct 2015 #13
Offensive and false. stone space Oct 2015 #14
Inoffensive and true. cleanhippie Oct 2015 #15
Couching every statement that you make... stone space Oct 2015 #20
Hemmingway said you should write drunk and edit sober. Act_of_Reparation Oct 2015 #21
Wow, you're in full-auto right now. cleanhippie Oct 2015 #23
Offensive and false, but........ stone space Oct 2015 #24
Your usual incoherence has devolved into stupefyingly funny madness. cleanhippie Oct 2015 #25
Aw geez, you're back again already? trotsky Oct 2015 #16
But Islam ISN'T a race, is it? Surely even you know that? mr blur Oct 2015 #19
Well I'd like to discuss those religions who are destroying antient artifacts yeoman6987 Oct 2015 #26
You probably saw I disrespect most religions Yorktown Oct 2015 #27
Sam Harris Tricks Naive Atheists Into Being Neocons bananas Oct 2015 #2
The presenter of this video said something quite asinine (@3:00+) Yorktown Oct 2015 #28
Sam Harris is a neocon asshole. F4lconF16 Oct 2015 #6
Exercpt here casts serious doubt Harris is a neocon Yorktown Oct 2015 #30
The problem with Sam Harris is similar to Hitchens towards the end, and a lot of people... Humanist_Activist Oct 2015 #8
Sam Harris is awful. Act_of_Reparation Oct 2015 #22

Cartoonist

(7,206 posts)
1. Why limit it to Islam?
Thu Oct 8, 2015, 11:44 PM
Oct 2015

We need to discuss the horrors of all deity based religions. Most importantly, we need to demand proof of God before anyone is required to kneel or show respect for religion.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
3. Just say it: Sam Harris is a racist warmonger
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 01:05 AM
Oct 2015
https://bullshitphilosophy.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/just-say-it-sam-harris-is-a-racist-warmonger/

Just say it: Sam Harris is a racist warmonger

Posted by Kevin on August 23, 2012

…or something not easily or meaningfully distinguishable from a racist. As are several other major figures in the atheist movement. And the movement largely refuses to grapple with it.

Recently, Ian Murphy published a controversial article titled The 5 Most Awful Atheists, arguing:

Disbelief in a supernatural creator… in no way guarantees rationality in matters of foreign policy or economics, for example. Many notable atheists believe in some powerfully stupid stuff—likely owing their prominence to these same benighted beliefs, lending an air of scientific credibility to the myths corporate media seeks to highlight, and thereby eroding the credibility of all atheists in the long-term. In other words: The crap always rises to the top.


The people he singles out – Sam Harris, Bill Maher, Penn Jillette, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and S.E. Cupp – make the list primarily as a result of their economic libertarianism, neoconservative foreign policy views, and/or Islamophobia.* The atheist movement of course encompasses people with a wide variety of views and backgrounds and no one could or should dictate which viewpoints should disqualify one from membership in the Atheist Club, but I share Murphy’s concern that racist warmongers like Harris have come to represent atheism in the public eye (which is something I’ve written about previously). It’s incredibly disconcerting that, as Jeff Sparrow noted at Counterpunch, “leading representatives of the movement express ideas that otherwise we’d associate with the hard Right – and are celebrated for doing so.”

And in my experience, atheists haven’t done a good job of confronting that fact. It’s not clear how many atheists share such views (in fact, there’s plenty of evidence to suggest such views are far from universal), but it is clear that many atheists are loath to criticize people like Harris or Hirsi Ali (or even the late Christopher Hitchens, whose much more blatant and disgusting war cheerleading atheists and his other supporters were happy to excuse).

<snip>

bananas

(27,509 posts)
5. The article in the OP was written by Sam Harris.
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:02 AM
Oct 2015

This thread is about an article written by Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/15/we-need-to-talk-about-islam-s-jihad-problem.html

Written by
Maajid Nawaz
Sam Harris

09.15.151:00 AM ET
We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem

<snip>

Cartoonist

(7,206 posts)
7. Then respond to the OP
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:48 AM
Oct 2015

If you made a mistake, that's Ok, I sometimes hit the wrong reply button myself.

Cartoonist

(7,206 posts)
10. Could you elaborate?
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 07:28 AM
Oct 2015

I don't see any relationship to what you posted and my remark. I am not Sam Harris.

muriel_volestrangler

(100,511 posts)
17. And it was also written by Maajid Nawaz. Who are you saying he's racist against?
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 11:05 AM
Oct 2015

He's a Muslim too, though he has many disagreements with extremist Muslims.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
29. I heard Leslie Hazelton (white) call Ayaan Hirsi Ali (black) a racist
Sat Oct 10, 2015, 07:01 PM
Oct 2015

Next time someone says something I disagree with, I'll call them a racist.

Should work (in a Leslie Hazeltonesque kind of logic)

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
34. That appears to be the desired effect.
Mon Oct 12, 2015, 08:03 AM
Oct 2015

Call 'em a racist, that means you can dismiss everything they say. The charge doesn't have to make any sense at all - BONUS!

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
31. Ayaan Hirsi Ali: a war promoter and the darling of right-wing war-mongering atheists
Sun Oct 11, 2015, 10:36 AM
Oct 2015

and an employee of the neoconservative pro-war think tank: American Enterprise Institute.

So it's no surprise that she is a fan of Henry Kissinger, the same Henry Kissinger who has been involved with more death and destruction than any other living person in the world:
[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
37. She is just one person out of over 1.5 billion people that have grown up Muslim
Mon Oct 12, 2015, 09:15 AM
Oct 2015

and someone that also has a history of lying. She may have had some bad experiences. It's hard to know where the truth begins with her.

The war-mongers love her because they were able to find one person, out of the over 1.5 billion, that tells them what they want to hear: Muslims are an inferior people and war is the answer.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
32. Cenk Uygur on Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and to a lesser extent Sam Harris:
Sun Oct 11, 2015, 11:39 AM
Oct 2015

The stupid runs strong in the comment section.
 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
12. Heh! Usually I see this arguement in the form...
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 09:46 AM
Oct 2015

..."Mexican is not a race", from racist xenophobes, while they bash immigrants from, say, Guatemala.

Islam is a race?


But I'm sure that you think you are being clever, as do they.



 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
20. Couching every statement that you make...
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 12:54 PM
Oct 2015

...in the language of your fundamentalist religion in conversations with nonbelievers may seem inoffensive to you, but to those of us atheists who don't believe on your Gods of Metal and who don't support your Gun Rites being shoved in our faces again and again, it comes off merely as an exercise in religious privilege.

Inoffensive and true.


Nor does your continued offensive use of the fundamentalist language of Gun Rites against unbelievers add much credibility to your false statements.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
24. Offensive and false, but........
Sat Oct 10, 2015, 11:27 AM
Oct 2015
Wow, you're in full-auto right now.





...this line does at least contain the beginnings of a productive idea...

Best slow down or you'll melt the barrel.


That's an idea worth exploring, cleanhippie.

Ii is reminiscent of this idea, another good one:


"When you hold one of these weapons, you know it has been an instrument of death. The challenge it to rid it of it's negative energy."






cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
25. Your usual incoherence has devolved into stupefyingly funny madness.
Sat Oct 10, 2015, 12:24 PM
Oct 2015

Your love of the grey metal gives fundamentalists a bad name.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
16. Aw geez, you're back again already?
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 10:07 AM
Oct 2015

Learn anything on your latest involuntary vacation?

I think the racists are the people who assume all Muslims are darker-skinned.

 

mr blur

(7,753 posts)
19. But Islam ISN'T a race, is it? Surely even you know that?
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 12:37 PM
Oct 2015

Oh, and neither is Christianity. Or Catholic. Or ignorance.

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
26. Well I'd like to discuss those religions who are destroying antient artifacts
Sat Oct 10, 2015, 12:27 PM
Oct 2015

Who are killing teens due to their beliefs, killing Christians. After that then we can discuss the other religions that are just annoying.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
27. You probably saw I disrespect most religions
Sat Oct 10, 2015, 06:16 PM
Oct 2015

This OP was just prompted by the new book by Harris and Nawaz.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
2. Sam Harris Tricks Naive Atheists Into Being Neocons
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 01:02 AM
Oct 2015


Sam Harris Tricks Naive Atheists Into Being Neocons
Sam Seder
Published on Jul 31, 2015

A listener IMs into the show to discuss Sam Harris' appearance on Dan Carlin's podcast...

Filling in for Sam Seder: Majority Report contributors Matt Binder and Michael Brooks

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
28. The presenter of this video said something quite asinine (@3:00+)
Sat Oct 10, 2015, 06:54 PM
Oct 2015

"if you want to know about Islam, ask a Muslim"
By the same token:
"if you want to know about Nazism, ask a Nazi"
"if you want to know about Maoism, ask a Mao"
"if you want to know about Christianity, ask a Crusader"

Islam, as it is understood today thanks to billions of petrodollars invested in a literalist reading, is currently imperialistic. Most muslims today will give a far more narrow minded than -say- the mutazilas would have in the 8th to 10th century.

But I doubt the presenter of this video even knows who the mutazilas were.

The movement emerged in the Umayyad Era, and reached its height in the Abbasid period. After the 10th century, the movement declined. It is viewed as heretical by some scholars in modern mainstream Islamic theology for its tendency to deny the Qur'an being eternal, and to allow for the possibility of free will and thus opposing the strict determinism of mainstream thought. In contemporary jihadism, supposed allegations of being a mu`tazili have been used between rivalling group as a means of denouncing their credibility.




F4lconF16

(3,747 posts)
6. Sam Harris is a neocon asshole.
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:24 AM
Oct 2015

After the shitshow with Chomsky where he defended Bush's intentions in Iraq, I decided to ignore him entirely. His arguments were crap and Chomsky really tore him a new one without even trying. Good thing, too--Chomsky's time is far too valuable to the rest of the world to spend it refuting utter BS.

Just goes to show that being an atheist means only one thing: you don't believe in gods. Period.

You can still be a warmongering, war-crime excusing, Islamophobic sack of crap while being an atheist.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
30. Exercpt here casts serious doubt Harris is a neocon
Sat Oct 10, 2015, 07:16 PM
Oct 2015

I do not see an Israel-worshipping neocon writing what Harris wrote:

Judaism is as intrinsically divisive, as ridiculous in its literalism, and as at odds with the civilizing insights of modernity as any other religion. Jewish settlers, by exercising their "freedom of belief" on contested land, are now one of the principal obstacles to peace in the Middle East.


 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
8. The problem with Sam Harris is similar to Hitchens towards the end, and a lot of people...
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 03:59 AM
Oct 2015

9/11 kinda broke them.

Smart people, stupid ideas, particularly when it comes to Islam, its like they lost their reason.

The biggest problem is this, and this is true of everyone who is so concerned about everything from Islamic terrorism to the so called Islamic invasion of Europe. Islam is not an existential threat to modern nation states. There is not going to be a huge, USSR threat coming from ISIS or any other radical and terroristic group. Nor do Muslims, in general, pose a threat to anyone.

However, this isn't to say Islam is harmless, it is obviously not, but the ones most victimized by radical Muslims are other Muslims, sometimes even ones who share the same radical beliefs, but are of a different gender. In the areas of the world where radical, fundamentalist and strict Sharia Law Muslims propagate, they are a localized threat.

Islam is a religion full of harmful, outdated and primitive ideas about a lot of issues, a problem it shares with Christianity and Judaism, unfortunately, radicalism simply occurs more often in Islamic majority societies than it does in the other two. Though there should be increasing concern over Jewish settler and Ultra-Orthodox terrorism and discrimination along with radical Christian violence discrimination as well. Particularly in Israel and Sub-Saharan Africa.

Obviously, due to the great moderating effect of secularism in most nations that are majority Christian, the radicals of such countries are very isolated, almost powerless, and generally not active. It seems the problem is the lack of secularism, pluralism, and institutions to strengthen these that is causing problems the world over with religious violence and oppression.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,065 posts)
22. Sam Harris is awful.
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 08:20 PM
Oct 2015

I'm probably going to part ways with more than a few of my peers here, but I really, really, cannot stand the man.

It's bad enough that he says some of the most downright awful things, but that he, a proponent of rationalism, seemingly lacks the capacity for critical self-reflection is doubly infuriating. It's like it never occurs to him that he could be, ya know... wrong.

And, as an aside, 9/11 doesn't explain his obtuse statements on women in atheism.

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