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rug

(82,333 posts)
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 02:59 PM Apr 2012

Dawkins and Pell battle it out in one hell of a debate

Leesha McKenny
April 10, 2012

It was a match-up made in Q&A heaven: two pugilists of opposing convictions going head-to-head in a debate about the existence of God.

Australia's highest-ranking Catholic and Sydney's archbishop, Cardinal George Pell, spent an hour with evolutionary biologist and celebrity atheist, Professor Richard Dawkins taking questions covering everything from evolution, resurrection and eternal damnation.

Frustration and something bordering on barely concealed mutual disdain boiled over more than once during the ABC television show.

Charles Darwin was claimed as a theist by the cardinal, because Darwin ''couldn't believe that the immense cosmos and all the beautiful things in the world came about either by chance or out of necessity'' - a claim disputed by Professor Dawkins as ''just not true''.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/dawkins-and-pell-battle-it-out-in-one-hell-of-a-debate-20120410-1wlkg.html#ixzz1rfH8lepH

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/dawkins-and-pell-battle-it-out-in-one-hell-of-a-debate-20120410-1wlkg.html

Video:


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Dawkins and Pell battle it out in one hell of a debate (Original Post) rug Apr 2012 OP
From the link tama Apr 2012 #1
Are you telling me that brains decomposing, or "rotting," after death isn't backed up by science? eqfan592 Apr 2012 #2
No tama Apr 2012 #5
So it's just a coincidence that brains do rot and that all consciousness 100% correlates with brains dmallind Apr 2012 #3
"that's all it is" tama Apr 2012 #7
You mean I ask for evidence and refuse to accept woo woo in its place dmallind Apr 2012 #8
I mean tama Apr 2012 #9
This from the one who practically worships Sheldrake's work, and dismisses criticisms made of him? darkstar3 Apr 2012 #10
Wrong. nt tama Apr 2012 #11
So that wasn't you on DU2 continually talking about consciousness as an "epiphenomenon" darkstar3 Apr 2012 #12
Define consciousness tama Apr 2012 #14
I think, therefore people piss me off. It's a close enough definition to work with. darkstar3 Apr 2012 #15
Quite cartesian. :) tama Apr 2012 #16
Sorry, but what is there to cherry pick? eqfan592 Apr 2012 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author tama Apr 2012 #26
The burden of proof tama Apr 2012 #27
LOL! laconicsax Apr 2012 #29
You claim tama Apr 2012 #33
After doing some quick research on this Sheldrake person... eqfan592 Apr 2012 #40
My advice tama Apr 2012 #42
I did read at least one of Sheldrakes responses. eqfan592 Apr 2012 #44
Agreed tama Apr 2012 #46
Do you understand what happens during the decomposition process after death? eqfan592 Apr 2012 #30
Why do you need tama Apr 2012 #31
Guess-project a strawman?!?!? eqfan592 Apr 2012 #36
I don't need to believe anything, now do I? tama Apr 2012 #38
I have no problem with skepticism. eqfan592 Apr 2012 #39
My skepticism tama Apr 2012 #41
Sorry, but I think you're taking things just a tad too far. eqfan592 Apr 2012 #43
What proof? tama Apr 2012 #45
I don't believe there is a "theory of brain reduction." eqfan592 Apr 2012 #48
As you say tama Apr 2012 #53
What evidence is there of telepathy? eqfan592 Apr 2012 #54
I consider the claim tama Apr 2012 #55
Indeed it does require extraoridnary evidence... eqfan592 Apr 2012 #58
As expected tama Apr 2012 #59
Science knows a great deal about skepticscott Apr 2012 #60
Interesting tama Apr 2012 #62
Wow, and there you go way off the deep end. eqfan592 Apr 2012 #61
You make many tama Apr 2012 #63
I think then we are at an impasse. eqfan592 Apr 2012 #64
And thanks to you! :) tama Apr 2012 #65
Ultimately an absurd debate. If one believes in god, then one believes in a being that... Moonwalk Apr 2012 #4
Death tama Apr 2012 #13
Science alway admits to "not knowing" what it doesn't know. It's religion that refuses to admit... Moonwalk Apr 2012 #17
I would avoid tama Apr 2012 #19
Imagine my remorse at losing your respect. Allow me to try and win it back.... Moonwalk Apr 2012 #20
Thanks tama Apr 2012 #24
if you could only say, "some religionists say," we could have a conversation. Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #28
Actually, I don't think he said "religionists" at all. (nt) eqfan592 Apr 2012 #37
I didn't say "religionists." I said "religion" and I didn't say "atheists." I said science.... Moonwalk Apr 2012 #49
No one I've ever heard of now or in histotry, Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #21
Pop quiz: Yes or no? "God can do anything." darkstar3 Apr 2012 #22
No --that is a gotcha question if there ever was one. Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #47
It was a question your assertion set you up for. eqfan592 Apr 2012 #51
Do you believe in bodily resurrection? Leontius Apr 2012 #56
I never said anything about God being a "super human magician." That was your statement darkstar3 Apr 2012 #57
Hmph tama Apr 2012 #25
If you're going to argue here, at least be honest skepticscott Apr 2012 #32
Thanks tama Apr 2012 #35
Are you saying that no one believes Jesus was physically resurrected? trotsky Apr 2012 #34
I didn't make up anything--you just need to read more history.... Moonwalk Apr 2012 #50
You know, the more I read your response to my post, the more absurd it becomes! I mean really.... Moonwalk Apr 2012 #52
Maybe it's just armchair quarterbacking... Silent3 Apr 2012 #6
George Pell was Bishop of Melbourne when i taught at the Melbourn University of Divinity. Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #18
 

tama

(9,137 posts)
1. From the link
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 03:19 PM
Apr 2012

"The clergyman's view that people would return after death in some kind of physical form earlier had been dismissed by Professor Dawkins. ''The brain is going to rot, that's all there is to it,'' he said."

That is not a scientific skeptical, agnostic and open minded statement from Dawkins, but a statement of strong belief, not different from "Jesus (and only him) was the Son of God".




eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
2. Are you telling me that brains decomposing, or "rotting," after death isn't backed up by science?
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 03:35 PM
Apr 2012

Wow....

dmallind

(10,437 posts)
3. So it's just a coincidence that brains do rot and that all consciousness 100% correlates with brains
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 03:37 PM
Apr 2012

in an unrotted state? I know the "other ways of knowing" fans try to postulate some kind of non-neurological consciousness but it has a)never been demonstrated b) flies in the face of everything we do know about brain function and c) ignores the data that all fully functional human brains have a consciousness and no human consciousness has been demonstrated in a dead human brain. That's a mighty tough coincidence to overcome if you want to posit a post mortem human consciousness, corporeal or ethereal, that survives a rotted brain surely?

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
7. "that's all it is"
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 05:04 PM
Apr 2012

Is the part of the quote that was pure unscientific belief. AFAIK no one is denying the data about various correlations between neural processes and consciouss experiences.

As for your a) b) c) and d), there are lots of conseptual problems and presumptions that need to be clarified to have a rational discussion and e.g. correct the many false claims of your post.

Based on my memories of previous discussions you belong to those who believe strongly in "materialistic reductionism" or what ever, and as a believer react with strong and often rude emotional defense mechanisms when your beliefs are challenged, so I'm reluctant to continue this discussion with you. On the other hand I try to keep open mind about discussion partners and would be happy to be proven wrong about earlier impressions about your attitudes and capabilities towards rational discussion in friendly and polite atmosphere.

dmallind

(10,437 posts)
8. You mean I ask for evidence and refuse to accept woo woo in its place
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 05:35 PM
Apr 2012

That ain't going to change whether you try to reduce it to a "belief" or not. Feel free to "correct" if you can - but use facts not unverifiable unfalsifiable new age gobbeldygook to do it if you expect me to take it seriously. Try that and my "attitude" may well change.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
9. I mean
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 05:40 PM
Apr 2012

that you deny and cherrypick evidence and logic to keep on believing the woo woo you like to believe. Your attitude comes loud and clear, and no need to try to "correct" it as I have no need to try to change your belief system.

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
10. This from the one who practically worships Sheldrake's work, and dismisses criticisms made of him?
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 05:54 PM
Apr 2012

Cherry picking indeed.

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
12. So that wasn't you on DU2 continually talking about consciousness as an "epiphenomenon"
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 06:11 PM
Apr 2012

and frequently expounding about Sheldrake's hypotheses?

I guess usernames are re-usable...

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
14. Define consciousness
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 06:45 PM
Apr 2012

"Mental processes as epiphenomenon of classical neurological processes" is more precise way of describing what Dawkings et alii fervently believe ("emergentism"/"scientism"/"materialistic fundamentalism" etc.), even though that is not even a scientific theory, just a working hypothesis for some scholars.

I don't much care about Sheldrake's hypotheses, I mention him sometimes when asked because empirical data from his studies, among others, falsifies that hypothesis.



 

tama

(9,137 posts)
16. Quite cartesian. :)
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 07:22 PM
Apr 2012

And I agree it's good enough to work with. ... therefore, giving thinking a rest once in a while can lessen the amount of pee in one's head and the amount of stress in the body that make everybody around the pee head feel uncomfortable.

But anyways, IMO fully accepting "I am" (a process of thinking) is a good place to start. Then we can proceed to "And What Else?"...

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
23. Sorry, but what is there to cherry pick?
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 09:36 PM
Apr 2012

You don't have any evidence to cherry pick from in the first place. Thinking that a person who is long dead and who's brain has rotted away wont come back to life isn't believing in "woo woo" at all, it's a logical prediction based off of every scrap of evidence we have available.

Ya know, if you want to believe in something on faith alone, that's fine, but don't act like everybody else is just doing the same thing when they call you out on it.

Response to eqfan592 (Reply #23)

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
27. The burden of proof
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:13 AM
Apr 2012

is on the side of those making the claim of reduction to brain matter, as mr. Dawkins did. And that's the only claim I made.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
33. You claim
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 06:32 AM
Apr 2012

that Sheldrake's new book which rationally and critically questions the presuppositions of materialistic reductionism is "pseudoscience" and as the host of science group have censured discussion about it.

In my book that's the behavior of the guardian of dogmatic orthodoxy, not of critical rationalism and skepticism.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
40. After doing some quick research on this Sheldrake person...
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:24 PM
Apr 2012

...it seems pretty clear that he does not use solid, scientific means to support his ideas. He draws conclusions from studies that don't support the conclusion (his staring tests), uses sample sizes that are far too small (telephone telepathy tests), and etc.

Sorry, but when somebody starts saying that the entirety of the science community is delusional or in denial over their work, that raises my skeptical hackles to no end immediately, and it didn't take much time to figure out that it was with good reason.

EDIT: Here's a great write up on him and the issues with his methodologies: http://calladus.blogspot.com/2006/09/nutty-professor-dr-rupert-sheldrake.html

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
42. My advice
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:50 PM
Apr 2012

is not to accept unskeptically the claims of that article or the validity of the debunking stunts by CSICOP et alii, but carefully read both sides of the various controversies, including of course also Sheldrake's responses to criticism. And NOT to jump to conclusions too quickly.

And certainly not to shut down rational evidence based discussions from science forum, however unacceptable alternative approaches may seem to some dogmatic orthodoxy.


eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
44. I did read at least one of Sheldrakes responses.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:59 PM
Apr 2012

The problem is that Sheldrake seems to be conducting all of his experiments in an extremely limited community, and his methodology is just damned poor. If he decides to place his work through the rigors of the peer review process and it survives, then we maybe there's something to his work. But lets just say I'm not holding my breath.

Also, I think we're running the risk of a thread jack here...

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
46. Agreed
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 01:15 PM
Apr 2012

about the thread jack, IMO this should be continued in the science topic.

But I must say in response that from what I've read, I cannot accept your claims about extremely limited community, poor methodology and not working through the rigors of the peer review process.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
30. Do you understand what happens during the decomposition process after death?
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:37 AM
Apr 2012

I mean, you say you're not arguing that brains don't decompose. So after this post I have to guess that you are claiming that a decomposing brain doesn't result in a reduced amount of brain matter over time?

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
31. Why do you need
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 06:00 AM
Apr 2012

to guess-project this or that asinine strawman? To allow you to think that I'm stupid and you are superior? If you don't want to look stupid, just read what I've said.

Again, Dawkings and materialist reductionists like him make claim that is not even a theory, but just presupposition and working hypothesis, and they make that claim unskeptically and dogmatically. That is not science, that is dogmatic belief.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
36. Guess-project a strawman?!?!?
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 11:27 AM
Apr 2012

Here is an exact quote from the post of yours I replied to: "The burden of proof is on the side of those making the claim of reduction to brain matter, as mr. Dawkins did."

My question followed logically from that statement. I honestly do NOT know what you are talking about, and so far, you've made your position about as clear as mud, only making accusations about assumptions without providing evidence nor making your own position clear. Could you please explain what you believe happens to a brain after death that differs from what was said in the video clip?

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
38. I don't need to believe anything, now do I?
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 11:51 AM
Apr 2012

It is perfectly OK to question and criticize a dogmatic belief without offering some other dogmatic belief as replacement. Maybe thats news to you and unimaginable, but it is indeed not only OK but also possible. That's called skeptical agnosticism. And by the rules of the game that people and especially self-identified atheists are playing here, the burden of proof is on those making positive claims, not on those taking the position of skeptical agnosticism.

In this thread I've learned more about dead bodies that don't corrupt, from a google search recommended by an atheist in response to a theist. I don't know what that phenomenon is all about, could be all fraud, could be something that current science cannot explain, dunnowhat. And I'm OK not knowing, or rather not believing that I know the answer. And if my skeptical agnosticism leaves room for Xians making claims of resurrection of Christ, that's not away from me as I can't say for sure that it couldn't happen. I voice my disagreements with Xians if and when I consider what they say something really wrong and harmfull. E.g. salvation only through Christ and Church copyright monopoly bullshit, papal infallibility etc.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
39. I have no problem with skepticism.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:04 PM
Apr 2012

In fact I encourage it. But when there is a large body of evidence supporting something, remaining skeptical for the sake of skepticism becomes a sort of dogmatism all on its own (see: Climate Change Denial).

So let me rephrase my question; On what basis do you remain skeptical of the idea that a decomposing brain results in a reduction of brain matter?

I understand the rules of the game perfectly well. What I don't understand is what it is specifically you doubt, and why you doubt it. You act as if there is limited evidence supporting Dawkins claim, and that Dawkins makes this claim as a matter of belief, one not founded on a body of evidence. I have found significant evidence of brains rotting after death, yet not a single instance of consciousness returning to such a brain after decomposition.

I promise I'm not trying to be intentionally obtuse, I just honestly do not understand what the basis for your skepticism is here.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
41. My skepticism
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:38 PM
Apr 2012

is more of the philosophical kind ("Pyrrhonian&quot than just scientific skepticism. I consider scientific theories just points of view, not something to believe in (unless wanting to experiment what happens by believing in some theory by some degree).

As for biomatter, after it stops moving AFAIK it usually gets recycled into soil pretty much which is nice from the point of view of a gardener. Worm shit crumbs we like best for our plants. But usually does not equal allways and without exception. There can be all kinds of exceptions, "known unknowns" and also "unknown unknowns", and e.g. bodies of "saints" that don't corrupt us usual may be one known unknown. I'm also open to the idea that "vital" information is preserved at the level of e.g. electromagnetic fields or sumfink like that and can reform as more ordinary biomatter not just in the spatiotemporal dimensions and interwals we are most used to, but also other ways (e.g. quantum teleportation where original gets destroyed). Don't really know, but if someone claims to know for sure that it can't happen, I become very skeptical and vocally agnostic. Also I can't say for sure that those who choose to freeze their brains can't be resurrected with some future technological miracle. Dunno. Etc. etc. etc.

So I can think of many possibilities with various degrees of plausibility (leaving those to subjective level), as mr. Dawkings blurts "brain - that's all there is". Which is not acceptable even from the point of view of scientifice skepticism, not to mention philosophical skepticism. I'm the skeptic here and Dawkins the dogmatic believer.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
43. Sorry, but I think you're taking things just a tad too far.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:55 PM
Apr 2012

As far as we can scientifically prove, that IS all there is to it. And that is the realm Dawkins works within. There is this, in my opinion, ridiculous need on the part of some that scientists should be forced to preface every commentary such as this with a "as far as we can scientifically prove" type statement, and I can't for the life of me understand why when that is the basic principle from which scientists are working from in the first place.

Dawkins isn't making a statement based on dogmatic belief, but on what we can scientifically prove at this time. If significant evidence surfaces that would call the current scientific understanding to question and Dawkins ignores it without countering it, THEN you could make the argument that he is being dogmatic, but not before.

We can prove that brains rot away, and we have yet to see any evidence that can stand up to the trials of the peer review process to substantiate any claims of consciousness being passed on through any other means. The burden of proof does not reside with Dawkins as you have previously implied, because he already has proof supporting his statement, but with those making the claims to the contrary.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
45. What proof?
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 01:08 PM
Apr 2012

And more precisely, where is the theory of brain reduction and what are the exact predictions and where have they been tested and what are the results?

Show me the fully developed theory, all I have heard so far are promises of such theory somewhere in future - and dogmatic belief in the working hypothesis that has not delivered anything worth calling a theory. No theory, just excuses and promises.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
48. I don't believe there is a "theory of brain reduction."
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 01:36 PM
Apr 2012

We still don't have a working definition of what "consciousness" is, if that is what you are getting at. But what we do know is when a person dies, that consciousness ceases to be as far as we can measure, and we have yet to see evidence of consciousness existing elsewhere outside of a biological mechanism.

If you want to claim that consciousness can exist elsewhere and/or be returned in some form, then you need to define a mechanism for its being able to do so (something a certain somebody we were discussing up-thread has failed to do, which is another major strike against him), and have a testable means of proving its existence.

EDIT: Actually, forget the mechanism, even just demonstrating that it can and has happened would be enough to show it is possible, even if we don't yet understand the mechanism.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
53. As you say
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 05:24 PM
Apr 2012

there is no working definition of what to measure to begin with, so what's the point of making claims of that undefined unmeasurable ceasing or continuing?

Also the position of agnosticism not denying that something may be possible (which would be claim of impossibility or active disbelief) does not need to define a mechanism for potential possibility. There is lot of middleground between impossible and positively proven/probable.

As for evidence that you are so interested in, what comes first to mind are clinically brain dead patient (brain frozen for duration of surgical operation) having recollections of the events during the operation that were verified by the medical staff present, telepathy, memories and physical marks of other lives, etc.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
54. What evidence is there of telepathy?
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 05:31 PM
Apr 2012

And memories of other lives, for that matter? Do you have a link for this person who had their brain "frozen" that still remembered events from the surgery? And was there no other explanation offered?

I didn't say consciousness was totally immeasurable, because it's not. We can see the brain activity that is at the very least partially involved in it, and can measure it.

As a wise man once said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so if you are going to promote an idea such as this, you better have some damned extraordinary evidence to support it.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
55. I consider the claim
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 06:36 PM
Apr 2012

"brain and that's all there is" extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence.

Yes, there there are correlations between various mental states and measurable brain activity. A resent study showed that psychadelic drugs producing altered states of mind that are sometimes given also religious interpretations in fact shut down activity in brain areas linked with poorly defined "consciousness" (I would guess what is actually meant is the faculty of linguistic/conseptual interpretation that creates narrative over sensual events or "inner dialogue" but can't say for sure). The study was quoted IIRC in the DU science group.

Pam Reynolds case:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html
More:
http://members.multimania.nl/titusrivas/nobrainactive.html

You could have found these as well as I :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation_research
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

And as for telepathy Sheldrake has been already mentioned.

And also non-rotting "saints".





eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
58. Indeed it does require extraoridnary evidence...
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 08:59 PM
Apr 2012

...so it's a good thing there already exists some extraordinary evidence to support it.

Dealing with both the Pam Reynolds case as well as NDE's in general, we have no reason to assume the experiences that Pam Reynolds had took place during her time of brain inactivity. We already know biologically what is happening to people who experience NDE's, and I'd wager the same took place here. It is also possible that her brain activity wasn't as fully stopped as they believed, and that a very low level of activity remained during the surgery. As for her experiences, she already had an idea of what was going to occur during the surgery, and she may have even seen some of the tools that were used prior to the surgery. Her brain could have reconstructed the rest.

Reincarnation does have some interesting evidence, but it's not very solid and much further study would be required before it would constitute proof.

Incorruptible corpses are explained through a variety of means. A site that gives a quick run down is this: http://listverse.com/2011/04/19/10-mysteries-and-their-most-logical-explanation/

Incorruptible Corpses are corpses that have been ‘preserved without embalming or any other artificial means’. The most famous is St. Bernadette Soubirous (above), who died in 1879. Her face and hands are made out of wax. The wax was added because her face was emaciated when she was first dug up. Other incorruptible corpses give off a sweet odor, similar to embalming fluid. Others still are due to how they were buried, in alkaline soil, with a lack of oxygen and bacteria and worms.


As you said, we've talked about Sheldrake previously, and even though you deny it, his methodology IS very poor from a scientific perspective. He often fails to allow for controls, does little or nothing to eliminate observational bias, and his collection of data regarding psychic dogs is largely gathered from surveys filled out by the general public with absolutely no controls whatsoever, and thus must be completely discarded. He also now seems unwilling to open his research up to the peer review process, instead choosing to publish his work to the general public, which is an awful indicator of major woo. Maybe this will change with time, but right now he's going in the wrong direction with his work, becoming more secluded from the rest of the scientific community.



 

tama

(9,137 posts)
59. As expected
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:04 PM
Apr 2012

you ask for evidence (which, judging from your response you were allready familiar with) only to explain it away in defence of your own bias. And that's OK and not worth going into debate, as all the evidence (including and especially neurology) points that we humans do cherrypick evidence and valuate its plausibility according to our preconceptions.

My situation is somewhat different in regards of evaluating e.g. Sheldrake's evidence, since I'm over the debate of possibility and plausibility of telepathy (and some related phenomena) through personal experience, which I see no point of denying myself and doubting it just reasonably, at the same time accepting that from other points of view how I experience this world would be just "anecdotal evidence" not worth of a second thought. So my interest in Sheldrake's studies, quantum mind hypothesis etc. has been the question 'what can science tell me more about how I experience this world, to relate with with various other narratives and traditions and can science open up new avenues of experiencing and building more coherent and inclusive world views?'.

From my point of view the part of the scientific community that you refer to is free to believe as they believe, as are religionists etc. But I cannot consider them respectable authorities of any kind in relation to how I experience. They can try to seclude Sheldrake et alii, and like you try claim that all anecdotal evidence, me included, "must be completely discarded", and show contempt for class betrayal of "publishing for the general public", they can censure and suffocate discussion and play their petty games of petty politics, but so what? That priestly class of scientific community you refer to does not accomplish anything worth my respect, it just seclude itself from the general public and community of men and other sentient beings into ivory tower of defense mechanisms. And when they talk down to me from the ivory tower from the presumed position of authority, they deserve no respect from me. I respect the people, members of scientific community included, who talk with me, not down to me. And maybe you are not very different in that respect.



 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
60. Science knows a great deal about
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:32 PM
Apr 2012

how people "experience" (including you, whether you like it or not), including quite a bit about the cognitive and and perceptual biases that we are all subject to. Which is why no one takes your or any other single person's experience as the last word on anything universal and objective. You're free to believe whatever woo woo you like in between your ears, but it qualifies as nothing else based on your say-so.

And if your feewings are hurt by being talked down to by people who know you're wrong, tough. The likelihood of a proposition being correct is not affected in the slightest by the attitude or demeanor of the person making or defending that proposition, though I'm sure thinking so makes it easier for you to dismiss what you'd rather weren't the case. Attitude is never evidence. Not no way, not no how.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
62. Interesting
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 08:14 AM
Apr 2012

Cognitive biases and perceptual biases can be called attitudes. Attitude of infatuation with propositions - making propositions, attacking propositions, defending propositions, making judgements about plausibility of propositions, is a cognitive bias to begin with, attitude which affects also perceptual biases.

We have different attitudes. Your cognitive bias directs your perceptions and attention heavily towards propositions and the game of judging propositions. Game of trying to convince and/or not to be convinced about truth value of propositions. Game of make believe. I can and do play the same game quite often, it's very addictive, especially when you get to play the role of the skeptic refuting propositions you don't like for this or that reason. Disagreements energise debate, they produce more and more words and propositions to agree with or refute. Often that energy leads to learning more about this world, often it leads to emotional frustration. When it leads to emotional frustration, better to stop playing the game of make believe and continue communication on other levels. E.g. just speaking for myself, sharing my point of view, without playing the game of convincing. So I'll just leave that game behind and continue telling what I can about telepathic interactions.

Remembering world is not just propositions about world, propositions are just one class of positions of participatory interactions. In my experience and according to other evidence I'm aware of, telepathic interactions are primarily bodily sensations interacting with mental images and between or via strong emotional bonds, not sending and receiving propositional sentences. So the cognitive bias of searching for propositions to refute or believe in can and does turn attention away from more sensuel levels of interactions, directing and limiting the field of awareness and thus affecting the perceptual bias, what sensual perceptions enter the conscious linguistic narrative we - or part of our brains - tell about and over the world.







eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
61. Wow, and there you go way off the deep end.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:32 PM
Apr 2012

Actually, I wasn't all the familiar with the arguments, outside of NDE's. I had to do some research of my own.

Part of being a real skeptic is looking for causes outside of the paranormal that could explain a particular situation. You call this "explaining away." I call it being a reasonable, rational person. If you want your evidence to hold up, it has to be such evidence that it CAN'T be explained away logically as something else other than what you are claiming. That I could do it so easily, and not with woo but with actual, demonstrable causes only underscores how weak the evidence actually is.

As far as your comments on anecdotal evidence, I was actually speaking of a specific study that was run that involved people signing up on a website to do observational work, with no controls put into place, and no science background to speak of necessary. This evidence must be discarded because such observational work isn't the sort that can be done by just anybody and maintain any level of credibility, and was basically just a round about way of doing an opinion survey.

I don't hold scientists who publish books to the general public in contempt. But I do question the credibility scientists who ONLY or PRIMARILY publish books to the general public. The general public doesn't serve well for a true peer review process. And that process is there for him to avail himself up if he so willing, which he his not, per his own words, and that harms his credibility.

Your attitude towards the scientific community mimics that of creationists such as Ben Stein. If you want your ideas to be accepted, you have to provide evidence to convince people that they deserve to be accepted. It has nothing to do with "petty games."

The fact that instead of countering my points you went on the defensive and accused me of bias only serves to underscore your own confirmation bias (something we can all fall prey to). Honestly, I think it'd be pretty damn cool of some of these things (especially telepathy and reincarnation) were real, but so far compelling evidence that it is has yet to be produced.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
63. You make many
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 10:25 AM
Apr 2012

good and valid points. I've discussed our cognitive and perceptual biases in more depth in my response to Scott above, so I'll just say that being aware that we all have our biases is not an accusation. And as for evaluating evidence, it is possible to refute each and all piece by piece by skeptic procedures of reasonable doubt. But as for my "confirmation bias", it is the sum of all of my experiences, including all that I have read, all discussions I've had, all sensations I've shared, the state I am now, not just thoughts and brain but all members of this body and all the layers of electromagnetic fields of this body, all the perceptions, all the information present and all that cannot be named and defined, this whole. And of course it is impossible to express this bias in few words on a discussion board, and as a believer in "theory of mind" I project something similar to your bias, a holistic bias that cannot be expressed in words.

And this bias says about science, that as much as I enjoy learning from scientists and scientific theories, the social reality of academic life or "scientific community" is another thing. There is too much of petty politics of power hierarchies, authoritarianism and silly attempts to define the boundaries of science into academic hierarchy, peer review process, some paradigmatic orthodoxy. And according to my bias I consider all attempts by individuals to speak for the whole of science and scientific communities with all the variety of biases and points of view as delusional dishonesty. Attempts to define science are as futile as attempts to define religion, and when someone tries to speak for Science or scientific community as whole, I see no real difference in someone claiming that he is the Only True Prophet of God. Silly arguments from abstract noun authority turned into some sort of Super Ego. From my bias I consider that a sign of semireligious Scientism and I don't like that attitude because what I like more is the childish curiosity and wonder and power of imagination together with genuine humility and ability to share and communicate ideas to others in lucid way that I consider the mark of truly great scientists.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
64. I think then we are at an impasse.
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 11:17 AM
Apr 2012

We obviously have fundamental disagreements here (especially about the peer review process and science in general), and I think that further discussion will only lead to a build up of animosity, as both of us have made our primary points.

Thank you for the generally amiable discussion.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
65. And thanks to you! :)
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 11:32 AM
Apr 2012

We can consider our differences fundamental disagreements or complementary viewpoints. I prefer the latter.

Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
4. Ultimately an absurd debate. If one believes in god, then one believes in a being that...
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 04:29 PM
Apr 2012

...can preserve a brain from rotting or restore one that has rotted. I mean, this is nonsense. If one is going to have faith in "magic" then why try and argue it scientifically? Or debate against science come to that as science can't have more power than magic? And if one is scientific, why argue with someone who believes in magic rather than science? They have, by definition, already rejected the "facts" in favor of their belief in a higher power which can ignore or overcome facts like "brains rot." Yes?

I mean the Archbishop starts off the debate with the false fact that humanity went suddenly from evil to good when Rome changed over from Pagan to Christian This shows that even when it comes to history, he's going to stick to what he believes to be true, not what we know to be true. Fact is, Christianity did not magically change the habits of humanity in regards to things like keeping slaves, abusing women, or killing children. All these continued on for centuries after Christianity had taken over the western world. And fact is, pre-Christian civilizations had as many moral and just and good men and women as post-Christian civilizations. If this man isn't aware of this, or has decided to ignore such facts for what his faith tells him, then all debate with him is ultimately pointless.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
13. Death
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 06:34 PM
Apr 2012

What ever is the historical background of the story about Christ resurrection, the phenomenon of of death experience itself is not unique:

"On 9 July 1967 in Saanen, Switzerland, on his forty-ninth birthday, U.G. Krishnamurti died. What brought about this death? What brought him back to life? 'I don't know. I can't say anything about that, because the experiencer was finished. There was nobody to experience that death at all,' says U.G. He insists that it was completely a physical and not a psychological death. From that point his life was not under his control, nor was there any entity controlling it. 'What I am left with is a sort of burnt-out case. The flame still burns. Whether these dying embers of life would have any impact on others or society is not my concern.'"
http://ug-k.blogspot.com/

'I felt something happening inside of me: the life energy drawing to a focal point from different parts of my body. I said to myself, "Now you have come to the end of your life. You are going to die." Then I called Valentine and said, "I am going to die, Valentine, and you will have to do something with this body. Hand it over to the doctors; maybe they will use it. I don't believe in burning or burial. In your own interest you have to dispose of this body. One day it will stink. So, why not give it away?"' Valentine replied, 'U.G., you are a foreigner. The Swiss government won't take your body. Forget about it.' The frightening movement of his life force had come to a focal point. Valentine's bed was empty. He moved over to that bed and stretched out, getting ready to die. Valentine, of course, ignored what was going on. She left. But before she left she said, 'One day you say this thing has changed, another day you say that thing has changed, and a third day you say something else has changed. What is all this? And now you say you are going to die. You are not going to die. You are all right, hale and healthy,' saying this, she left the room. U.G. continues his account:

Then a point arrived where it looked as if the aperture of a camera was trying to close itself. It is the only simile that I can think of. The way I am describing this is quite different from the way things actually happened at that time, because there was nobody there thinking in such terms. All this, however, must have been part of my experience, otherwise I wouldn't be able to talk about it. So the aperture was trying to close itself, and something was there trying to keep it open. Then after a while there was no will to do anything, not even to prevent the aperture closing itself. Suddenly, as it were, it closed. I don't know what happened after that. This process lasted for forty-nine minutes—this process of dying. It was like a physical death. U.G. says that even now it happens to him:

My hands and feet become so cold, the body becomes stiff, the heartbeat slows down, the breathing slows down, and then there is a gasping for breath. Up to a point you are there, you breathe your last breath, as it were, and then you are finished. What happens after that, nobody knows.

When U.G. came out of this his landlady said that there was a telephone call for him. He went downstairs in a daze to answer the phone. He didn't know what had happened. He had been through a physical death. What brought him back to life, he didn't know. How long it lasted, he didn't know. 'I can't say anything about that, because the experiencer was finished: there was nobody to experience that death at all...'


Just one story and there are many similar. Add the near death experiences and all that jazz... The point? There can be lot to dying that current scientific theories have no clue about, maybe some theory some day can explain more, without calling such events miracles and creating authoritarian religions based on them. But until then, best to keep open mind and admit not knowing.

Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
17. Science alway admits to "not knowing" what it doesn't know. It's religion that refuses to admit...
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 07:32 PM
Apr 2012

...that it doesn't know. There-in lies the problem. Religion says "This is what happened. Miracle, Period. God. Period." Facts to the contrary don't matter. if they did, Creationists wouldn't have a museum insisting the world was only 6000 years old, no matter what the facts tell us.

Science, on the other hand, never says it "knows" till it has the facts to prove that it's right--and even then it allows for room for the conclusion to be wrong or re-adjusted. Like finding a fossil that changes just how old the estimation of how old modern humans are (that happened recently). Scientists can theorize, but they can never say "This is the truth" until concrete evidence says so. This has nothing to do with keeping an open mind, by the way. It has to do with not imagining fantasies, only jotting down what is known and drawing a conclusion from those puzzle pieces.

As for this story, of course people are brought back to life all the time. Many a paramedic has done so. Why do you assume science doesn't understand this? YOU don't, but there are plenty who do. It's a little different from a rotting body being resurrected like that of a zombie by--according to the bible--magic. No ambiguity about that. No "who knows how it happened?" Man dead absolutely for this long, man brought back to life thanks to power from a supernatural being. That is the story, no evidence required to prove any of it true--it is true. Period.

Thus, religion closes its mind to there being any other answer. Now, we will grant that Science is skeptical of such answers created out of whole cloth and wish fulfillment with no evidence to back them up. However, putting such answers at the very back of the line as what possibly happened isn't so much close minded as arranging according to what is most probably vs. least probable. Given the story you offered in response, it's clear what YOU want to be the most probable answer. But science doesn't work that way. It doesn't go for the answer you want to be the most likely answer, nor what it wants to be the most likely answer; it *must* go for the answer that the evidence suggests is most likely. Until there is evidence, the scientists have to say, "We don't know...and neither do you."

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
19. I would avoid
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 07:51 PM
Apr 2012

using both science and religion as personified subjects of sentences, that's sort of deification and IMO quite unnecessary. Also, unless I want to be snarky or just an asshole (can do both), I try to avoid making claims about opinions and views of others without asking. You did so about me more than once in the post above, and I don't like it - and that makes me like you less. And when I like you less, I don't feel like sharing more with you.


Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
20. Imagine my remorse at losing your respect. Allow me to try and win it back....
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 09:00 PM
Apr 2012

...and explain why I said what I said about you. See, when someone asks others to be "open minded" and then offers up a site that touts a guru and mysticism, it kinda sets off alarm bells. This is because most people who put up that combination are not asking their audience to be "open minded." What they're usually saying is "I'm sure you don't want to be thought of as 'closed minded.' To prove you're not, accept that this alternate answer, the one I favor."

I will, however, take you at your word that you didn't mean it like that. That you really do want us to be open minded. But are you really sure about that? Consider. If I'm going to be really open minded then I must accept every possibility as being equally likely, no matter how weird or absurd. So. Let's take the guru there. We've one answer to why he came back to life. But there are others. For example, maybe he sold his soul to the devil and the devil brought him back to life and now he's all evil. Or maybe he lied and made up the whole thing with some help from others to back him up, and it's all to get money and fame. Or maybe he's got some strange zombie virus and he's not really alive, he's "walking dead."

Open minded means that I must give every possibility an equal chance of being right. So, whatever you happen to think is the truth, thats +1. Which means the chance that you're wrong is "Infinity-1." That means that you're more likely to be wrong than right..if I keep an open mind.

If, on the other hand, I go for a scientific mind, then the equation changes. Science gives more weight to what is likely given what we factually know. Thus, if you tell the science-minded that you believe the guru's coming back to life had something to do with brain chemistry or lower body temperatures, then the science minded will weight that possibility as *more* likely--not equally likely--to devils and demons. Because science has done experiments where frozen things come back to life, etc. Thus, if your belief is based on anything remotely backed up by facts and evidence, you have a greater chance of convincing the science minded that this might be true then you have of convincing the "open minded" that it's true.

So, what do you really, honestly want from us? Do you want us to be "open-minded"? All possibilities possible no matter what? Science-minded? Weighing likelihood and giving more weight to those with factual evidence behind them? Or semi-open-minded, meaning accepting only those alternative views that people of certain spiritual faiths believe? If "semi" which ones should we accept and which reject? Speaking of which, you'll forgive me for asking this but, as you say, I don't know you: have you considered that the guru's miracle might have a scientific explanation? It would, after all, be unfair of you to ask that the science-minded consider a spiritual explanation without, in turn, requesting that the spiritual consider a science explanation.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
24. Thanks
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 11:39 PM
Apr 2012

I didn't intend UG's description of his "calamity" (as he called it) as anything but than just one anecdotal description of an experience that he named "dying" - I chose that because it's the most "clinical" and down to earth description of such experiences that I know of. Never met the man and seems quite an asshole, but also asshole in quite entertaining way - to my tastes. I like especially the anti-guru and anti-religion attitude that UG spreaded with mighty ass-hollerism. How should UG's (and other similar) anecdotal evidence be interpreted - in terms of scientific and other explanations? Up to you, really, I have no agenda to sell this or that interpretation or explanation to believe in. Perhaps most "open-minded" approach would not to interprete at all... or as you say, consider all interpretations equal.

I can speak only for myself, and what I like about the story and the guy is that assuming (ie. just speculating) that if there was a Jeebus guy who experienced something similar, then it seems at least that unlike that Jeebus guy, UG did a lot in word and deed not to start another religion, but called his experience physical and natural - even though he trashed also science as well as everything else.

And believe it or not, I consider myself "science-minded" and not religious at all - though I don't deny the value of rituals that create social cohesion and help to keep up healthy relation between a community and ecosystem. I just don't equal science with materialistic and reductionistic presuppositions - nor the social hierarchies of academic establishments. I like to be in dialogue with various scientists and their theories including the "fringe" and wild ones, and incorporate what I gather from the dialogue to how I experience and communicate - which includes sort of "test-driving" some theories to see how (occationally) believing in them (or rather my limited comprehension of them) affects the way I experience. In this experimental dialogue I discard the approaches based on the materialistic and reductionistic presuppositions from the test-drive believing, primarily because from my point of view they are not fun and interesting enough, don't open up new spheres of experience and/or fail to explain how I'm allready experiencing. I can entertain rational doubts towards my own experiences as well as the next guy, but in the end I prefer the degree of self-confidence that says that if a theory considers my experiences impossible, fuck that theory, I falsify it. And so with good conscience I can't recommend accepting such theories - or rather their presuppositions - to others, and occationally feel the need to speak against them, especially when presented as unquestioned authoritarian truths.




Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
28. if you could only say, "some religionists say," we could have a conversation.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 12:31 AM
Apr 2012

If I said "atheists say", and quote Ayn Rand, you would be right to come back at me for misrepresentation.

Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
49. I didn't say "religionists." I said "religion" and I didn't say "atheists." I said science....
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 02:03 PM
Apr 2012

Religion does say "This is the truth, period." If it doesn't, then how is it a religion? All religions, by definition, have tenants of belief, don't they? If you believe them, you belong to that religion. If you don't, then you don't--for example, you can hardly say that you are a christian by religion if you don't believe in the holiness of jesus. And these essential tenants aren't flexible--which is why you end up with schisms. Because those who disagree with the tenants must start their own church based on different tenants. For example, you don't say "god is love, but that's not an absolute..." You say, "god is love," and that's the religion's tenant. It's accepted as a fact, right? No evidence required, no vote taken. And if someone in that religion says, "You're all wrong! god is hate!" then he usually has to leave and start his own religion. The religion isn't going to say, "okay, let's look at the evidence, do some research and tests, and re-assess our tenants on what god is accordingly...." That's not religion.

Science says, "we have theory one, theory two and theory three for what this is. Let's look at the evidence and see if it proves any of them right. If it doesn't then we will reject them all and formulate a new one given what we know...." Science lets the evidence tell us what is the truth. It doesn't state a truth and then ignore any and all evidence to the contrary. It doesn't let tenants of faith dictate what it concludes. Which is why science is more open-minded than religion.

Individual Scientists, however, can certainly be closed-minded. Just as individual religionists may be open-minded. But that's pretty obvious, isn't it?

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
21. No one I've ever heard of now or in histotry,
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 09:13 PM
Apr 2012

holds that God can preserve a brain or keep it from rotting. Nobody.

If you are going to argue here, at least be clear about what theists believe, and don't make up silly things to prove a point.

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
47. No --that is a gotcha question if there ever was one.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 01:27 PM
Apr 2012

The notion of God liberals hold does not see God as a super human magician.

As long as you insist on the superman notion of God, you will never move on to where religion has been headed. Ihope you have not been stuck with the same scientific notion or you would be with the flat earthers. But then you like the old religious notions. They are far easier to attack.

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
56. Do you believe in bodily resurrection?
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 07:14 PM
Apr 2012

Or do you believe resurrection is just a spiritual phenomenon?

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
57. I never said anything about God being a "super human magician." That was your statement
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 08:44 PM
Apr 2012

and yours alone. I simply asked you if you believe that God can do anything. It doesn't matter what you think the nature of God is, it matters only what you think he/she/it can do.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
25. Hmph
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 11:44 PM
Apr 2012

Aren't the brain freezing and preserving technoscience corporations promising Deus ex Machina after life (for cash) also included in the "Panentheistic God" of your theology? Never heard of them?

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
32. If you're going to argue here, at least be honest
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 06:25 AM
Apr 2012

Please don't pretend that you've NEVER in your life heard of the concept of incorruptibility.

A simple Google search of "saints bodies not decomposing" will show anybody that might have been inclined to take you seriously how ridiculous your denial is. There are a lot more people than "Nobody" that believe this, as you darn well know.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
34. Are you saying that no one believes Jesus was physically resurrected?
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 07:07 AM
Apr 2012

Because after being dead for three days (one and a half if you want to be precise), Jesus' brain would have begun rotting. To resurrect his physical body, the Christian god would have had to repair that damage.

I know that you and your fellow ivory tower theologians don't believe in a physical resurrection. But you simply cannot wave away the fact that hundreds of millions do.

Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
50. I didn't make up anything--you just need to read more history....
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 02:15 PM
Apr 2012
No one in history has ever believed god could keep a brain from rotting? Seriously? Then what about all those pilgrims you read about, through out history, who went to holy sites where they swore a saint's body was preserved from rotting and decay? There are hundreds of stories that religious people sincerely believe about miracles involving god preserving a body from rotting after death. And I don't think any of them say, "god kept the body whole, no decay...except for the brain...."

No one you have ever heard of now or in history may hold that god can preserve a brain from rotting, but I assure you, there are plenty of accounts of people who held that god could do that, and there are plenty NOW who hold that god can do that. Here, now and maybe even living next door to you. They believe god can do that, they believe god has done that.

So if you're going to argue here, at least be clear about what theists have believed and still often do believe. Don't make silly assertions that have no basis in fact.

Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
52. You know, the more I read your response to my post, the more absurd it becomes! I mean really....
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 05:01 PM
Apr 2012

You expect us to believe that no theist you've ever heard of in the here and now thinks the god they believe exists can preserve a brain or keep it from rotting? Where have you been living? Under a rock? Because I get this feeling that unless you are the only theist you've ever heard of, I could find someone you've heard of who believes god can do that.

And your assertion is even more ridiculous if we take the second half "no one in history...Nobody"! Dude, seriously? So, you're saying that no one in the whole history of humankind, not one who ever believed in a god would agree that god can stop a brain from rotting or restore it? Billions of theists over the history of mankind believed god could create the universe, perform healing miracles, bring the dead back to life...but somehow stopped short of believing that god could prevent a brain from rotting? Is that seriously what you're asserting?

If so, then you must be from an alternate universe, because not a word of that is true in this one.

Silent3

(15,148 posts)
6. Maybe it's just armchair quarterbacking...
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 04:44 PM
Apr 2012

...something that's too easy to do without the pressure of cameras and an audience, but, as much as I like Dawkins, I can't help but feeling when I'm listening to things like this that I could do a better job of answering some of these questions.

Heck, I even think I could have pretended to be a Catholic and answered some of the Cardinal's questions better than he did.

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
18. George Pell was Bishop of Melbourne when i taught at the Melbourn University of Divinity.
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 07:44 PM
Apr 2012

Last edited Tue Apr 10, 2012, 09:14 PM - Edit history (1)

Catholics come in very different flavors--here and in Australia. Pell--we called in "Pell Pot"--is a right wing very conservative part of the church. If Santorum represents that position in the US, Pell represents something far to the right of Santorum. Those of us on the theological faculty represented Christians he wouldn't even talk to. His elevation to the chief of Australian Catholicism was a blow to the liberal wing of the church. I hope Dawkins gave him a run for his money.

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