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Wed Feb 18, 2015, 01:03 PM

 

Norwegian Muslims volunteer to protect synagogue


Norwegian Muslims volunteer to protect synagogue

After deadly attack at prayer site, activists intend to form a human ‘peace ring’ of protection after weekend services


By Stuart Winer February 18, 2015, 12:28 pm



In the wake of a deadly shooting attack at a synagogue in Denmark last week, a group of Norwegian Muslims intends to hold an anti-violence demonstration at an Oslo synagogue this coming weekend by forming a “peace ring” around the building.

“We think that after the terrorist attacks in Copenhagen, it is the perfect time for us Muslims to distance ourselves from the harassment of Jews that is happening,” Arshad told the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation NRK in an interview cited by The Local News website on Tuesday.

She noted that the group aimed to “extinguish the prejudices people have against Jews and against Muslims.”

snip----------------

Arshad promoted the initiative as an event on Facebook, and by Wednesday morning over 630 people had indicated that they would attend.

“Islam is about protecting our brothers and sisters, regardless of which religion they belong to,”
the event page explains. “Islam is about rising above hate and never sinking to the same level as the haters. Islam is about defending each other.”



http://www.timesofisrael.com/norwegian-muslims-volunteer-to-protect-synagogue/

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Reply Norwegian Muslims volunteer to protect synagogue (Original post)
stone space Feb 2015 OP
Peacetrain Feb 2015 #1
skepticscott Feb 2015 #2
NYC_SKP Feb 2015 #3
skepticscott Feb 2015 #5
NYC_SKP Feb 2015 #7
skepticscott Feb 2015 #9
NYC_SKP Feb 2015 #10
Warren Stupidity Feb 2015 #11
Leontius Feb 2015 #20
Warren Stupidity Feb 2015 #24
Leontius Feb 2015 #26
skepticscott Feb 2015 #33
Leontius Feb 2015 #56
skepticscott Feb 2015 #57
Act_of_Reparation Feb 2015 #60
skepticscott Feb 2015 #17
stone space Feb 2015 #18
skepticscott Feb 2015 #21
stone space Feb 2015 #22
skepticscott Feb 2015 #29
stone space Feb 2015 #31
skepticscott Feb 2015 #32
stone space Feb 2015 #34
skepticscott Feb 2015 #35
stone space Feb 2015 #36
skepticscott Feb 2015 #37
Warren Stupidity Feb 2015 #25
Lordquinton Feb 2015 #19
okasha Feb 2015 #41
edhopper Feb 2015 #6
hrmjustin Feb 2015 #4
okasha Feb 2015 #8
hrmjustin Feb 2015 #13
MellowDem Feb 2015 #15
hrmjustin Feb 2015 #16
MellowDem Feb 2015 #27
hrmjustin Feb 2015 #30
MellowDem Feb 2015 #39
hrmjustin Feb 2015 #43
MellowDem Feb 2015 #48
hrmjustin Feb 2015 #49
MellowDem Feb 2015 #50
hrmjustin Feb 2015 #51
Leontius Feb 2015 #23
MellowDem Feb 2015 #28
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #45
okasha Feb 2015 #38
MellowDem Feb 2015 #40
okasha Feb 2015 #42
MellowDem Feb 2015 #46
okasha Feb 2015 #52
MellowDem Feb 2015 #54
okasha Feb 2015 #55
MellowDem Feb 2015 #91
stone space Feb 2015 #71
MellowDem Feb 2015 #92
stone space Feb 2015 #97
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #96
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #47
okasha Feb 2015 #53
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #58
stone space Feb 2015 #64
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #65
stone space Feb 2015 #67
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #69
stone space Feb 2015 #70
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #72
stone space Feb 2015 #75
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #80
stone space Feb 2015 #81
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #83
stone space Feb 2015 #85
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #87
stone space Feb 2015 #89
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #94
pinto Feb 2015 #12
cbayer Feb 2015 #14
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #44
trotsky Feb 2015 #59
stone space Feb 2015 #61
trotsky Feb 2015 #62
stone space Feb 2015 #63
trotsky Feb 2015 #66
stone space Feb 2015 #68
trotsky Feb 2015 #73
stone space Feb 2015 #74
trotsky Feb 2015 #76
stone space Feb 2015 #77
trotsky Feb 2015 #78
stone space Feb 2015 #79
trotsky Feb 2015 #82
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #98
stone space Feb 2015 #100
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #101
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #84
stone space Feb 2015 #86
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #88
stone space Feb 2015 #90
Act_of_Reparation Feb 2015 #95
trotsky Feb 2015 #93
Rainforestgoddess Feb 2015 #99

Response to stone space (Original post)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 01:06 PM

1. Not a bit surprised..

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Response to stone space (Original post)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 01:17 PM

2. Apparently even other Muslims

 

See it as inevitable, or highly likely that the dictates of their religion will inspire some of its practitioners to hate, intolerance and violence.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 01:36 PM

3. Obviously, religion does not cause the violent acts. Hate-filled people do that.

 

Muslims, Christians, and non-believers are all capable of horrible acts.

I mean, let's see... Joe Stalin? Mao Zedong?

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 01:53 PM

5. Do you dismiss completely the possibility

 

that feelings about their religion can be exactly what fills some of those people with hate? "Hate-filled" people aren't born that way and don't just become that way in a vacuum. Something inspires the hate in every one. Is it impossible that religion is that something for some of them?

Do you have any evidence that Stalin specifically was inspired to horrible acts by his lack of belief in any higher power than himself? Like direct quotes from him?

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 02:33 PM

7. Not born in a vacuum, that is correct. Millions of peaceful Muslims, Christians, etc. are models.

 

In fact, all leading religions promote peaceful coexistence despite the fact that some of their dated writings include very hateful passages.

The people who abuse the local religion to brainwash people to do their bidding are not really acting in good faith, they are evil to begin with.

Nobody suggested that Stalin's evil was inspired by his lack of belief in a higher power, so I don't feel inclined to do any research.

My point is simply that religious types don't have a monopoly on doing evil things to millions of people.

But, come to think of it, had they been provided with a healthy spiritual upbringing, maybe those millions would never have suffered.

On that we can agree.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 03:18 PM

9. What we agree on is that you dodged every one of my questions

 

Try again.

Do you completely dismiss the possibility that feelings about their religion can be exactly what fills some of those people with hate? Yes or no?

Something inspires the hate in every one. Is it impossible that religion is that something for some of them? Yes or no?

Do you have any evidence that Stalin specifically was inspired to horrible acts by his lack of belief in any higher power than himself? Like direct quotes from him? Apparently not a shred. Which leaves him in the class of birdwatchers, stamp collectors and opera lovers who have committed horrible acts.

And just to re-iterate, as stated in the OP, directly from the activists:

if anyone wants to commit violence in the name of Islam you will have to go through us Muslims first.” What they're doing is admirable, but they explicitly acknowledge that the reason for doing it is their clear recognition that SOME Muslims are being inspired to commit violence because of their religion.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #9)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 03:56 PM

10. "In the name of Islam" done by corrupted & lost souls or be a false flag, they ain't real adherents.

 

Zo:


Do you completely dismiss the possibility that feelings about their religion can be exactly what fills some of those people with hate? Yes or no? Yes, they are doing it wrong and probably know it.

Something inspires the hate in every one. Is it impossible that religion is that something for some of them? Yes or no? Yes, impossible, they are hateful first and find religion later, or are indoctrinated by usurpers

Do you have any evidence that Stalin specifically was inspired to horrible acts by his lack of belief in any higher power than himself? Like direct quotes from him? Apparently not a shred. Which leaves him in the class of birdwatchers, stamp collectors and opera lovers who have committed horrible acts. You wrote: "Apparently even other Muslims see it as inevitable, or highly likely that the dictates of their religion will inspire some of its practitioners to hate, intolerance and violence." Inevitable? Highly Likely? Nah, I don't think so and my evocation of Stalin was just to make the counter case that religion isn't necessary for evil to occur and may, and probably does, prevent evil from happening more often than not.

And just to re-iterate, as stated in the OP, directly from the activists:

if anyone wants to commit violence in the name of Islam you will have to go through us Muslims first.” What they're doing is admirable, but they explicitly acknowledge that the reason for doing it is their clear recognition that SOME Muslims are being inspired to commit violence because of their religion. See the subject line of this reply.

If Stalin had been raised in a loving family with a benevolent spiritual base, maybe he'd not have been so ass-nasty.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 04:04 PM

11. Stalin was raised orthodox christian.

 

next.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #11)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 07:39 PM

20. And people never change do they?

 

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Response to Leontius (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 08:23 PM

24. um, an assertion was made that was testable and shown to be false.

 


If Stalin had been raised in a loving family with a benevolent spiritual base, maybe he'd not have been so ass-nasty.


I said nothing about the ability of people to change, I merely pointed out that the idiotic assertion about stalin was based on false assumption.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 08:39 PM

26. You've not shown that he was raised in a loving family or a benevolent spiritual base

 

His family could have been hateful bastards and the monks could have beat him daily so as not to "spoil the child". I don't know and you've shown no facts to say this is not what happened in is childhood.

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Response to Leontius (Reply #26)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 10:11 PM

33. The assertion assumed that he wasn't

 

without any evidence that he wasn't. That's where the fucked-up reasoning lies.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #33)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 05:51 AM

56. And the counter-assertion assumed that he was

 

without any evidence that he was. That's where the fucked-up reasoning lies.

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Response to Leontius (Reply #56)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 06:23 AM

57. It assumed no such thing

 

it stated the known fact that he was raised orthodox Christian.

Next.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #57)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 09:41 AM

60. He wasn't simply raised Orthodox.

He began attending Tiflis Spiritual Seminary in Tblisi when he was sixteen years old. We have it on good authority the Russian Orthodox Church served as the Romanov family's official PR firm in Imperial territories--a fact our friends here like to overlook whenever the topic of religion in the Soviet Union arises--and that the Russian priests who ran the seminary routinely pumped the student body full of pro-Russian and anti-Georgian rhetoric.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 07:00 PM

17. Thanks for confirming

 

that your entire argument is just one steaming pile of No True Scotsman crap. For those interested in rationality, let's make it clear and simple:

Claim: Islam isn't inspiring people to hate and violence and can't possibly be.

How do you know? People who say they are Muslims are committing acts of violence and saying that it is because of the dictates of their faith.

Claim: Those aren't TRUE Muslims and what they're practicing isn't TRUE Islam.

How do you know it isn't TRUE Islam?

Claim: If it were TRUE Islam, it couldn't be inspiring people to violence, because TRUE Islam can never inspire people to violence.


In other words, transparently using your conclusion to try to prove itself. Dopey, circular, fallacious thinking, not worthy of being taken remotely seriously.

Of course,that's not even the full depth of the nonsense you're spouting. You also have this deluded notion that there is some pure, holy ORIGINAL version of Islam (or other religions) for these people and their religion to have been corrupted FROM, which is codswallop. It assumes (without any proof) that Islam and other religions are anything but entirely human inventions. If the original "pure" version is just a human invention, then it is no more legitimate as a religion than all of the "corrupted" versions which were other human inventions. Even if you don't want to call those other versions by the original Islam (r), that doesn't alter their legitimacy as alternative religions one bit, any more than the legitimacy of Lutheranism as a religion is called into question by someone calling it a "corrupted" version of Catholicism (which as we all know, since it tells us so, as you do, is the ONE TRUE CHURCH).

And if it's leaping to your mind to argue that a "legitimate" religion could never espouse hate and violence, don't waste your time. That's just more NTS bullshit. Nowhere in the definition of "religion" is it required that something can only espouse goodness and benevolence to qualify. Anyone with the least knowledge of religious history knows that many of the gods humans have worshipped through the centuries have been anything but good and benevolent. Maybe you WISH religion were that way, and maybe you think religion OUGHT to be that way, so that you can feel all fuzzy-wuzzy about it, but big, fragging hairy deal. That has just exactly zero to do with how religion IS, as real people practice it in their real lives in the real world.

Of course, even if the "pure" version of a religion was actually handed down from an actual omnipotent, goddish being, you have zero evidence that that version is what's being practiced in the 21st century (when most of us live). There is no way to know that the "original", "god-given" version wasn't much harsher, and that a few good-hearted humans softened it up a bit before passing it on, somewhere along the way. In either case, saying that some religious believers are "doing it wrong" is just bunk. There is no single, unquestionable, objective, original core of "it" that you can point to at the center of ANY religion for people to be doing "right" or "wrong", your wishes and wants to the contrary being, as noted, utterly irrelevant to actual religious practice and belief.

As far as people being "corrupted", sure they have. That's the point. The plain simple fact is that religion does a really fracking good job of manipulating and corrupting people. That's why it's such a shitty thing in so many situations. When you start selling people on unalterable, unquestionable dogma, when you start telling people that their orders come from an all-powerful being, it's easy for them to rationalize the most horrible shit imaginable, in ways that no other way of thinking can inspire.

I think we're done here. I'm going to leave you Bobbing in the water. Try to keep your socks dry!

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 07:30 PM

18. If you want to know what Islam is about, ...

 

...it's right there in the article.

These Muslims have already explained it to you.

“Islam is about protecting our brothers and sisters, regardless of which religion they belong to,” the event page explains. “Islam is about rising above hate and never sinking to the same level as the haters. Islam is about defending each other.”

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Response to stone space (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 07:39 PM

21. Wow…how did anyone know what Islam is about

 

before that article came out? Have all of those Muslims been wasting their time on the Five Pillars all these years? Have all those Muslims in all of those holy wars and jihads been "doing it wrong" before you came along to clue everyone in?

Yet again, the way YOU think Islam SHOULD be or wish it was is utterly, totally irrelevant.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #21)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 07:43 PM

22. Dudes with the guns have been doin' it wrong.

 

That's my takeaway from this.

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Response to stone space (Reply #22)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 09:53 PM

29. Yeah, if they'd just stick to swords and beheadings

 

Everything would be hunky-dory. In your world, anyway...

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #29)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 10:00 PM

31. You really hate these people, don't you?

 

Yeah, if they'd just stick to swords and beheadings


How does their religious act of nonviolence hurt you in any way, shape, or form?

Why do they inspire such venom and anger?

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Response to stone space (Reply #31)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 10:08 PM

32. Where did I say it did?

 

I didn't. I said just the opposite. The "venom and anger" part about what they're doing is just you making shit up.

It's your obsession with bringing your gun crap into the religion group that inspires scorn.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 10:12 PM

34. Look at your reaction to their words.

 

“Islam is about protecting our brothers and sisters, regardless of which religion they belong to,” the event page explains. “Islam is about rising above hate and never sinking to the same level as the haters. Islam is about defending each other.”


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Response to stone space (Reply #34)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 10:18 PM

35. Yes, I said "What they're doing is admirable"

 

Shoot me.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 10:20 PM

36. "Yeah, if they'd just stick to swords and beheadings"

 

That's venom.


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Response to stone space (Reply #36)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 10:24 PM

37. And if that had referred to the people in your OP

 

you might have a point. As it is, you're just slathering at the mouth, looking for anyone or anything to lash out at.

You need to stop sitting at your computer and clicking Refresh every 10 seconds and work on your reading comprehension before you make any more bogus accusations.

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Response to stone space (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 08:24 PM

25. Islam is also about chopping off the heads of 21 coptic christians because, you know, "love".

 

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 07:34 PM

19. You wouldn't happen to be Scottish

Would you?

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:12 PM

41. As I'm sure you've noticed,

ss's goalposts are so mobile he's had them motorized.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 02:26 PM

6. you forgot

the 'sarcasm' thingy.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 01:40 PM

4. Believers are not blind.

 

We know that there are people who will do violence in the name of religion.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 02:54 PM

8. And we also know

that in some few, their atheism is at the root of hatred for religion and religious people. The lack of a "Big Book of Atheism" hand-waving is no.more than distraction.

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Response to okasha (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 04:55 PM

13. Absolutely!

 

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Response to okasha (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 05:32 PM

15. It's not a distraction...

It's you redefining atheism to make a false comparison. It's an age old strategy. Atheism says nothing about hating believers.

Atheism not being a belief system is a HUGE difference, not a distraction.

The fact that the Abrahamic religions are belief systems, all of which are explicitly hateful, bigoted and violent in ther texts IS a big deal for followers of those religions. The most dishonest choose not to see that reality, the more dishonest may make the false comparison you do.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #15)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 05:48 PM

16. We are well aware what atheism is.

 

As a general rule atheists don't get violent in the name of atheism or an anti-religion kick but this case might be different.

The man was an anti-theist and it is possible he killed these people because of their religion.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #16)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 09:19 PM

27. It's possible he killed them...

because of religion, but neither atheism or anti-theism are belief systems instructing him to do so. Whatever bigotry or ideology he followed that made him think killing others was OK is to blame. He said he was a liberal and supported gay rights, but neither says anything about killing religious people either.

The Abrahamic faiths, on the other hand, say a lot about killing unbelievers, and homosexuals at that, and lots of people. It's a false comparison.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 09:58 PM

30. What is a false comparison?

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #30)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:02 PM

39. Comparing atheism...

as if it is a belief system with religion.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #39)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:38 PM

43. I didn't say it was. i said I think his anti-theism had something to do with it.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #43)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:01 AM

48. Anti-theism isn't a belief system either...

And it also says nothing about hating believers or killing them.

Anti-theism would have as much to do with this as his support for gay marriage. Or his claim of being a liberal.

If a supporter of gay marriage killed a homophobic bigot because of his stance on gay marriage, would gay marriage support be the root cause of the killing? That's what you're equating. And it's still a false comparison, even with anti-theism replacing atheism.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #48)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:04 AM

49. I understand that. that is why I said HIS anti-theism.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #49)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:10 AM

50. Anti-theism is anti-theism...

Even if he hated Islam as part of his anti-theism, he'd have to go one or two more isms to get to hating Muslims and wanting to kill them.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #50)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:13 AM

51. That is true.

 

Violence among non-believers against believers is very rare as far as I know. I think I remember only one incident from last year.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #15)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 07:47 PM

23. Atheism is a belief system.

 

The basic premise of which is there is no god. From this position your world view is formed just as it is formed by the opposite position of there is a god forms another type of world view. These two opposing foundations allow someone to build the superstructure of their world view from this.

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Response to Leontius (Reply #23)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 09:20 PM

28. It's the lack of belief...

It's not even a single belief, much less a system of beliefs.

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Response to Leontius (Reply #23)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:49 PM

45. My LACK of belief in god(s) forms nothing of my world view, outside answering whether or not

I choose to follow any religiously-inspired social morals/laws. That's it.

Everything outside that single question, the response of 'no' and disregard of all the shit religious people bolt onto their 'yes', forms nothing at all about the rest of my worldview. I had to construct that worldview by myself.

Try it, you might like it. It's like having all the source code yourself, rather than licensing a copy of windows from someone else who can't explain the entire package to you either.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #15)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:01 PM

38. Read my post more carefully.

I didn't redefine atheism. I didn't make a sweeping conclusion about all atheists. I didn't say hatred is the universal end product of atheism. I said that for some few atheists--the bigots among them-their atheism is indeed at the root of their hatred for religion and believers. And yes, the hand-waving about no common textual source of atheists'ethics/morals introduces an extraneous, false premise--that such a textual source is necessary for distorting simple lack of belief--and is indeed an attempt to distract.

The shortcomings of fundamentalist Abrahamic religions are irrelevant to any statement about atheism. Your remarks constitute nothing but further attempts to distract.

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Response to okasha (Reply #38)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:06 PM

40. How can atheism...

a lack of belief, be at the root of hatred for believers? It's completely non-sensical, unless you redefine it.

If an atheist killed out of bigotry, then bigotry would be the root cause. Atheism doesn't condone bigotry. It doesn't condone anything.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #40)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:15 PM

42. Read the post more carefully.

You're still waving your hands.

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Response to okasha (Reply #42)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:55 PM

46. No, you are...

you claim atheism can be the root cause for hatred. That's a non-sensical claim, and you haven't explained it either. It isn't possible based on the definition of atheism. Atheism isn't a root cause of anything.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #46)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:13 AM

52. You'te demonstrating cognitive dissonance.

I'm talking about how atheism interacts with various personalities, not how it applies to all. It's a range that's clearly demonstrated in posts to this group. Obviously you don't care to acknowledge that and continue hand-waving.

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Response to okasha (Reply #52)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:22 AM

54. Atheism is simply the lack of belief...

it doesn't "interact" with personalities. What "interacts" with personalities is prejudice and bigotry, and if this was a hate crime, those would be the cause. Atheism says nothing about either. It doesn't condone or criticize bigotry. It's a lack of belief in a very specific claim. That's it.

Would you say support for gay marriage can be the cause for hatred? That seems non-sensical. It's a position on one issue.

Would you say liberalism can be the cause for hatred? That's a much vaguer term, and refers to a certain ideological preference, but even that doesn't make sense based on common definitions of liberalism. I'm sure conservatives would define it in such a way to say yes though. They have done so for support of gay marriage as well. It's a distortion of definitions and positions and even just non-sensical claims in order to pin the blame on something they disagree with.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #54)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:27 AM

55. Or maybe it's intellectual dishonesty

you've got going.

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Response to okasha (Reply #55)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:21 PM

91. How?

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #54)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 11:50 AM

71. Atheism is not "simply" anything

 

The notion that atheism is somehow more simplistic that religion is silly.

Individual atheists may be simplistic, but that's also true of religious folks.





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Response to stone space (Reply #71)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:23 PM

92. It is more simplistic...

It's simply the lack of belief in gods. Individual atheists will have very complex ideologies or beliefs, but atheism isn't either.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #92)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 04:08 PM

97. No more simplistic than religion.

 

Of course, many view religion is a simplistic manner as well.


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Response to stone space (Reply #71)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 04:06 PM

96. A-theism. Without theism.

It's really that simple.

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Response to okasha (Reply #8)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:00 AM

47. That wasn't the point in the link between religious sources, and religious implementers of violent

religious ideas.

The point was that atheists share no common source, and no common ideals. You get 10 different atheists in a room, you can get 10 entirely different worldviews on the topic of violence.

Most (but not all) of the typical religions in the world today are steeped in violence deep in their (claimed) histories. Looking specifically at the Abrahamic traditions, there are entire chapters in the old testament full of god killing people himself, people killing people at god's behest for what they thought, and people killing people at god's behest due to the physical space they occupy. Their source material gives them rules on when it is or is not proper to kill someone. Surely you've seen different groups of Christians wrangling over whether the bible supports or detracts from even the idea of Capital Punishment by the state?

To some degree, there's a sharing of doctrine/ideals from adherents to various faiths. An atheist can be *anything* because everything beyond the question of 'is there a god' is fully disassociated from their lack of religion. One lends nothing to the other.

A secular humanist, on the other hand, is an atheist that may share a great number of ideals.
An anti-theist, perhaps shares some with other anti-theists as well. I wouldn't bet on being able to enumerate too many of them though.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #47)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:21 AM

53. See posts 42 and 52.

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Response to okasha (Reply #53)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 08:41 AM

58. Atheism doesn't 'interact with personalities' any more than any other idea.

It's just an idea. A limiting one, too.

At most, it tells me where I DON'T get the rest of my worldview.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #58)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 10:45 AM

64. No more, but also no less.

 

Atheism doesn't 'interact with personalities' any more than any other idea.


You can't really divorce atheism from the atheist. Atheism is a cultural phenomena, like anything else. And culture does indeed interact with personalities.



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Response to stone space (Reply #64)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 10:50 AM

65. I would say it CAN be a cultural phenomenon.

But it doesn't have to be. I've always been an atheist, and I didn't get it either transmitted to me, or cribbed it from society as an idea I could adopt. I simply have always been unimpressed by supernatural claims.

But I would agree it CAN be culturally transmitted. But it is not absolute, and there are plenty of atheists out there for whom their non-belief is not a conscious/meaningful part of the their cultural identity at all.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #65)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 11:22 AM

67. I've been atheist as long as I remember, also.

 

But it doesn't have to be. I've always been an atheist, and I didn't get it either transmitted to me, or cribbed it from society as an idea I could adopt.


And my wife has also been a Catholic as long as she can remember. (In both cases, more than half a century.)

We are both pretty much just like you in that regard.

But, like you, we both exist within a culture, and our personalities interact with our atheism/Catholicism.



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Response to stone space (Reply #67)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 11:45 AM

69. How is it possible to 'be a catholic' as far back as one can remember?

Probably a question for a different thread maybe.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #69)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 11:49 AM

70. The same way...

 

...it is possible to be an atheist as far back as you and I can remember.

How is it possible to 'be a catholic' as far back as one can remember?


People are people. And they have many similar experiences.



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Response to stone space (Reply #70)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 11:57 AM

72. That doesn't make any sense.

If you're 2 years old, and have no concept of god, you are by default, an atheist. (lacking belief.)

How does one teach a kid how to be a catholic or that they 'are' a catholic prior to the age they start remembering stuff anyway?

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #72)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:05 PM

75. It makes perfect sense once you realize that...

 

...Catholics are just as human as atheists, and have many of the same experiences as we do.



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Response to stone space (Reply #75)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:26 PM

80. Uh. No.

When I say I've always been an atheist, it requires no conscious adoption on my part. When I was 2, I was an atheist because I didn't know anything about a god. I hadn't made a conscious decision to identify as an atheist, I simply was. If you don't believe, you're an atheist. It doesn't matter if you don't believe because you didn't know there was anything there to believe in.

How does one adopt a faith at an age before they can remember anything?

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #80)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:29 PM

81. My wife's experiences are as real...

 

...as your experiences and my experiences.

I'm not sure why you find that so hard to believe.

It all part of the human experience.

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Response to stone space (Reply #81)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:55 PM

83. Fascinating that you keep using the word 'experience'.

Before one can adopt an idea and invest belief/faith in it, one must experience it to even be aware of it, yes?

How likely is it, that this experience of Catholicism is the VERY FIRST experience ever, that a child could remember?
That seems a strange order of operations.


Or are you suggesting that children who are catholic are born with an innate knowledge and adoption of the catholic faith?

That would be an interesting claim.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #83)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:00 PM

85. I find it odd that...

 

...when you relate your own personal experiences, you seem surprised to learn that others have had similar personal experiences.

Usually people are surprised when others have different life experiences than they have had, not when they have similar experiences.



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Response to stone space (Reply #85)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:07 PM

87. A similar experience would be that at some point going backward in their memory

they would remember a time BEFORE they actively adopted a faith.
I remember a time going back before I was aware of, and rejected the idea of faith.


If a person were to claim they ALWAYS had faith, going back to birth, that would not be a shared experience.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #87)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:14 PM

89. Ok, I misunderstood you.

 

I've been an atheist for as long as I can remember.

You remember a time when you made a conscious decision to become an atheist.

Our experiences are indeed different.

My wife's experience is more parallel to my own experience than to yours.



I have known Catholics who have also made a conscious decision to become Catholic, for whatever that is worth, so your experiences are still not really unique to atheism.

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Response to stone space (Reply #89)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:59 PM

94. No, now you are misunderstanding me.

I've been an atheist for as long as I can remember.

You remember a time when you made a conscious decision to become an atheist.


I remember a time before I was aware of the concept of atheism, OR gods, and had not yet chosen between because I was fully unaware of either choice.

Once I became aware of a choice, I made it. Prior to making that choice, I was an atheist without knowing it, because theism requires belief, and I had none. A-theism, without belief. I was without theistic belief before I knew there was a theism/non-theism to choose from.

Were you always aware, as far back as you can remember, that other people had religious belief (exposure to the idea) and that you were by choice, an atheist because you rejected their expressions of faith?

I remember a time before I could even read or write, and that's about when I became aware of other people believing in religious stuff like, angels and whatnot. Once aware of it, I always rejected it as nonsense.

Essentially, I was always an atheist, because that is the default position before you even know that there is anything to *be*. Again, atheism is a lack of belief. Belief is a positive, overt, adoption of faith in... something or somethings..

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Response to stone space (Original post)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 04:17 PM

12. Kudos for the mutual support and anti-violence focus.

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Response to stone space (Original post)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 05:26 PM

14. That's what it's all about.

Those that want to continue to voice hateful rhetoric and build walls instead of bridges will get what they deserve.

In the meantime, I'm with these people. Together we are unbeatable. Build bridges not walls. Leave the ones that don't want to cross behind.

Nice to see you back. Hope you have been well.

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Response to stone space (Original post)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:46 PM

44. Still haven't figured out how to post with the site's copyright policy?

Don't willfully and habitually infringe on others' copyrights.

To simplify compliance and enforcement of copyrights here on Democratic Underground, we ask that excerpts from other sources posted on Democratic Underground be limited to a maximum of four paragraphs, and we ask that the source of the content be clearly identified. Those who make a good-faith effort to respect the rights of copyright holders are unlikely to have any problems. But individuals who willfully and habitually infringe on others' copyrights risk being in violation of our Terms of Service.


You must have forgot during your 'absence'.

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Response to stone space (Original post)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 09:34 AM

59. I'm glad that they have chosen a positive interpretation of Islam.

Unfortunately their interpretation is just as valid as the monsters who lop off heads.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #59)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 10:30 AM

61. My interpretation of atheism is also different from Craig Hick's...

 

...interpretation of atheism.

But they are most certainly not equally valid.

Unfortunately their interpretation is just as valid as the monsters who lop off heads.


That's not a statement of fact.

That's a value judgment, and a value judgment that empowers and elevates those who choose the path of violence, and which promotes hate over love.

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Response to stone space (Reply #61)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 10:33 AM

62. Well that's another thing you're confused about.

There is no "interpretation" of atheism. If you don't believe in gods, you're an atheist.

And yes, it IS a statement of fact I made. It's true for any revealed religion - you cannot prove that someone didn't get direct divine communication from the god to clarify or even change any piece of recorded information about the religion. That's how those religions started - if you declare divine revelation null and void, along with it goes the entire religion.

Good luck with your crusade. You seem to have alienated pretty much everyone by now though. No wonder you found yourself on a vacation.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #62)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 10:37 AM

63. Your double standard is not nearly as objectionable as...

 

...your attempts to promote and legitimize murderous ideologies as being somehow "equally valid" to nonviolent ideologies.



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Response to stone space (Reply #63)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 10:50 AM

66. Aw, that's a lovely straw man you've constructed.

Nice to see your tactics haven't changed. I'm sure you will be duly rewarded once again.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #66)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 11:23 AM

68. Not a straw man. You said it here:

 

Unfortunately their interpretation is just as valid as the monsters who lop off heads.


This is a reflection of your own personal value judgment, and most certainly does not correspond to my own atheist values.



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Response to stone space (Reply #68)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 11:58 AM

73. Nope, you're dead wrong once again.

Saying that the interpretations are just as valid (which they are) is not the same as saying the ideologies are equally valid (which they are not).

You lose. Again.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #73)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:01 PM

74. We have different atheist values.

 

I value non-violence.

You find violence and non-violence equally valid.



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Response to stone space (Reply #74)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:05 PM

76. Again, you're so terribly wrong.

But continue in your crusade.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #76)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:11 PM

77. "Unfortunately their interpretation is just as valid as the monsters who lop off heads." (nt)

 

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Response to stone space (Reply #77)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:13 PM

78. I'll redirect you to this:

"Saying that the interpretations are just as valid (which they are) is not the same as saying the ideologies are equally valid (which they are not)."

Want to shut me up? Prove that the extremist interpretations are wrong. Go ahead.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #78)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:25 PM

79. I'm not shutting you up.

 

Attempting to shut off atheist criticism of Gods and Idolatry is your specialty.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218182449#post19

Some Gods are beyond criticism, I guess.



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Response to stone space (Reply #79)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:29 PM

82. LMAO!

You are so funny!

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Response to stone space (Reply #74)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 04:09 PM

98. Non-violence isn't an 'atheist value'.

It's a value that you, an atheist, might ALSO hold, but atheism and non-violence have zippity-do-dah to do with each other.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #98)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 04:12 PM

100. Non-violence is most certainly an atheist value.

 

This nonsense about atheists lacking moral values is a myth.

Of course we have morals values, just like religious folks.



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Response to stone space (Reply #100)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 04:31 PM

101. You just mix unrelated shit all the time. Stop that.

Yes, we have morals and values.

But they don't come FROM ATHEISM.
The only input Atheism has on our morals and values, is a disqualification of readily-available sets of morals and values created by religion.

Atheism doesn't tell me I shouldn't steal someone's stuff, or kill them, etc. My morals and values came from other places. Wholly unrelated to a belief or non-belief in god.


a-the-ist
[ey-thee-ist]
Spell Syllables
Synonyms
Examples
Word Origin
noun
1. a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.


Theists get some set of rules/values/laws from their religious doctrine/commandments, etc. Atheism provides none. You can borrow from others, you can crib them from secular sources, or you can create your own. But that doesn't make them ATHEIST VALUES.

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Response to stone space (Reply #68)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:58 PM

84. The point is, your atheist values aren't any use in deciding the validity of Muslim beliefs

and it's not about trotsky's personal value judgements either.

You are claiming that you get to say whether the entire world's religious beliefs are valid or not, and also that anyone who says that religious people get to decide that their own beliefs are valid are making a 'personal value judgement'.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #84)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:06 PM

86. Of course my atheist values are of use.

 

The point is, your atheist values aren't any use in deciding the validity of Muslim beliefs


The may not be the alpha and the omega, but they are certainly of use.

Just like these folks' Islamic values are of use.

It's the lens through which I view the world.

If my atheist values are not of use, then my atheism is an impoverished atheism indeed.

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Response to stone space (Reply #86)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:13 PM

88. They're how *you* view the world; you don't get to be the judge of "valid Muslim beliefs"

You are not in charge of the world's religions.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #88)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:18 PM

90. Yes I do. Everybody does.

 

It's a part of being human.

We all bring our values to the table, and we use those values for purposes of discernment.

Because atheists are human, atheist values matter, too.




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Response to stone space (Reply #90)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 02:21 PM

95. Then my vote is for ice cream.

Everyone got that? Ice cream is now a fundamental tenet of Islam. My discernment has spoken.

Now will one of you clowns please pass me the fucking gummi bears?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #88)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:26 PM

93. My vote is for performance art at this point. n/t

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Response to trotsky (Reply #93)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 04:10 PM

99. I shall do an interpretive dance

To represent this conversation.




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