Have you ever heard a conservative Christian quote Jesus?

[CJCRANE]

I'm no theologian but I remember a few things that Jesus supposedly said such as...

"Love thy neighbor"

"Love thine enemy"

"Turn the other cheek"

"Blessed are the peacemakers"

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

"What ever you do to the least of these is what you do to me"

But I don't recall ever hearing a RW Christian quoting any of these sayings.

Maybe it could be a challenge:

"Tell me what Jesus said. I'd like you to tell me all the things you know that Jesus said. I'm all ears".

See how long they can last before they have to quote something from the Sermon on the Mount.

[pnwmom]

1. Or "render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's" -- i.e., quit complaining and pay your taxes.

[appleannie1]

2. 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'"

[Ecumenist]

19. Love this quote! Just one thing....It's " you did it FOR me" but it's abeautiful

quote. I wish that the "so'called" fundie rightwing hypocrites lived what they claim to believe in.

[safeinOhio]

3. It is very easy to get a Bible

that shows the actual words of Jesus highlighted in red. Ask if they are Christians and then ask to show quotes in red.

[eomer]

22. The red words in the Bible are not the actual words of Jesus.

One quick way to prove they can't be is to notice that the books of Matthew, Luke, and John have three totally different quotes for Jesus' last words:

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.
Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

It is finished.
John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/lastwords.html

The Gospels were not actually written by the men to whom they're attributed (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) but rather by men who lived during the early centuries of Christianity and in many cases they contain not the teachings of Jesus but rather the teachings of those early Christians, which are not always the same.

[CJCRANE]

23. But as far as Christians are concerned

they are the words of Jesus.

If they are going to base their lives on following the Biblical Christ then they need to know and practice the sayings that are attributed to him in the Bible.

[eomer]

28. Problem is that the Bible is an incoherent, inconsistent mess so picking and choosing is inevitable.

I personally think it is better to teach the truth about the Bible and try to get people to look beyond it for sources of truth and wisdom.

[safeinOhio]

29. I usually tell them to read

the book Misquoting Jesus.

[eomer]

31. We agree. (eom)

[appleannie1]

4. "Judge not, that you be not judged.

For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?

You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye"

[Ecumenist]

20. Annie, I LIKE YOU!!! LOL!! This is what I throw at them EACH AND EVERYTIME I hear some

of my "Christian" relatives talking crap about people they consider themselves to be better than.

[handmade34]

5. what I learned in Seminary...

all that Jesus meant to say is "Life is a bitch, we need to help each other!"

I took that to heart

[cbayer]

36. That pretty much distills what I was taught as well.

And it resonates with the first principle of Buddhism. Very easy one to use for guidance.

[dmallind]

6. Sure

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” (Matthew 5:27-28)

If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children
and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. (John 2:4)

[Dragonfli]

14. That is my experience as well. /nt

[CJCRANE]

24. That's the thing...

fundamentalists pick out a couple of phrases and ignore everything else.

It's like claiming to be a fan of Lord of the Rings and then saying it's all about Tom Bombadil.

[Goblinmonger]

32. It's not like there is just those three

and they would say you are ignoring the parts they like in favor of those that support your agenda. Which is true. Which is why the Bible is a horrible mess as a guidebook.

[CJCRANE]

39. But I'm talking specifically about the the things *Jesus* said in the *NT*

not stuff in the OT, not stuff in Paul's letters or Revelation but the things Jesus *Christ* said that Christians supposedly base their lives on.

The things Jesus said are well-known to most people, even non-christians.

So why is it that fundamentalist Christians who insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible never quote the phrases Jesus is most famous for?

"Love your neighbor" / "Love your enemy" / "Turn the other cheek" / "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

[al_liberal]

7. Nope.

Not once. They sure bitch about the government and the left a lot though.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. Ask them if they are familiar with Matthew 25:31-46.

If they aren't, remind them what it says:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

And then ask them why, if Jesus wanted us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and look after the sick and the stranger and the prisoner, they are resisting all efforts to do that.

I think the answer you'll get is that people should help the poor through private charities, but not involuntarily through the offices of the government. And then you can ask them if their church would, or even could, pay the medical bills of any ill or disabled members who had lost their jobs and their insurance. Do they think all the needy people in America can be helped by bake sales and raffles? If not, what would they suggest, if government shouldn't do it and private charities aren't enough - considering that Jesus said those who don't help the poor will go to hell?

[chknltl]

9. knr, bookmarked for your post. thank you. n/t

[Igel]

40. Judge not.

They don't do it, that's their problem.

Doesn't stop you from doing it. Doesn't give you any basis for bludgeoning others and forcing them to do it. (As though forcing them to help the poor would earn any celestial brownie points in any event. Or your forcing them to help the poor would redound to your virtue.)

[laconicsax]

10. You're assuming that conservatives can read.

How can you expect someone to quote a multi-volume novel when they can't read.

[aka-chmeee]

11. My Sister in law is just positive that Jesus

said "Give a man a fish and he will eat today; teach him to fish and he will eat every day."

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. Well, you know Jesus really enjoyed quoting Chinese proverbs.

[laconicsax]

15. Makes sense since Jesus was actually Chinese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ChineseJesus.jpg

[CJCRANE]

26. Well there are some people

who think that Jesus' teachings have many things in common with Buddhism. But of course Buddha was Indian.

[kestrel91316]

12. Nope. They love to quote Paul and the apostles and Leviticus.

And Genesis. But they conveniently ignore the actual words of Christ.

[lunasun]

16. Paul and Leviticus Yep the only parts that support their crazy talk so that

is the only part they pay attention to

[laconicsax]

17. .

[eomer]

25. We don't know the actual words of Jesus. And the teachings of Jesus are not that easy to know.

That's because Christians of the early centuries CE were making it up as they went in order to counter their critics from both within and outside Christianity. The original authors of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (who were not actually Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) and the various scribes who "helpfully" modified those books over time would not have ever met Jesus, much less heard all those quotes, and their teachings are flavored by their own beliefs at the time and in the context of each one's community and critics, which were not the same as those of Jesus himself or of each other.

There are significant differences between the teachings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Some of the teachings of Jesus are probably in there somewhere if we can somehow filter them out; the actual words of Jesus are probably not, except in perhaps a small number of exceptional cases.

[CJCRANE]

27. That's all true

but the reality is that most religious believers base their belief on a holy book so it's not unreasonable to expect them to know what's actually in the book, especially fundamentalists who espouse a 'literal' interpretation and claim to use that book to directly guide them.

[eomer]

30. We sort of agree, but it leads me to a different conclusion.

If they start to know what's actually in the book, and they're paying attention, then they will have to conclude that the Bible can't be counted on as a source of what's true.

In other words, it's a difficult sell to get them to agree that "our" choices in the pick-and-choose game are the right ones. On what basis when the whole thing is incoherent, inconsistent, and therefore unreliable? In a way it would make us not much better than them. If we are to find truth we need to first respect the incontrovertible truths we find and go from there. And one of these truths is that the Bible was made up by people at different times and places and is filled with things they invented only because they were convenient arguments, not because they were true. This includes many of the "teachings of Jesus" that we would cite if we were to go the route you've proposed.

[CJCRANE]

33. I see what you mean.

Maybe I'm just like them - I see what I want to see. As William Blake once said 'both read the Bible day and night, but I read black where they read white'. This does feed into the (strangely postmodern) conservative view that there two sides to everything, two versions of the truth or more accurately two types of propaganda with no real truth inbetween (e.g. Fox News vs the 'liberal media').

[eomer]

34. Thanks for the quote, I wasn't familiar with that.

Here's a larger excerpt:

THE VISION OF CHRIST that thou dost see
Is my vision’s greatest enemy.
Thine has a great hook nose like thine;
Mine has a snub nose like to mine.
Thine is the Friend of all Mankind;
Mine speaks in parables to the blind.
Thine loves the same world that mine hates;
Thy heaven doors are my hell gates.
Socrates taught what Meletus
Loath’d as a nation’s bitterest curse,
And Caiaphas was in his own mind
A benefactor to mankind.
Both read the Bible day and night,
But thou read’st black where I read white.

http://www.bartleby.com/236/58.html

I personally don't see that there is any authoritative source to look to, Bible or other. For me the best philosophy is to be good to each other just because in the end it is best for each and all of us in the living of our lives. To be "good for nothing" as the minister of my UU congregation preached a few Sundays ago. That's what I would tell Christians or non-Christians if I were engaged with them on this subject.

[kestrel91316]

35. Well I am referring to the RED LETTER parts of the bible which are the purported words of Christ.

Of course we don't know the ACTUAL words of Christ. For that matter, AFAIAC we don't know that Christ actually existed.

But I do find wisdom in those red letter parts, which (unlike most fundies) I HAVE ACTUALLY READ.

[eomer]

37. I agree and find wisdom there too, but also find things in red letters that I don't accept.

Excerpt from Matthew's Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:17-32 RSV
[font color="red"](17) “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
(18) For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
(19) Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(20) For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
(21) “You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’
(22) But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.
(23) So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
(24) leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
(25) Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;
(26) truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
(27) “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
(28) But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
(29) If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
(30) And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
(31) “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’
(32) But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
[/font]

[kestrel91316]

38. Yeah, that's a REAL troublesome passage. Heaven knows who wrote it.

One of many reasons I am not a christian per se.

[eridani]

18. I once met a fundy whackjob who refused to believe that the Beatitudes--

--were in the New Testament.

[Ecumenist]

21. Oh my God, REALLY?? SMDH eom

[Igel]

41. Take the Sermon on the Mount.

Blessed are the poor.

Because they have a shortage of money? Or is it "blessed are the poor in spirit"--which is certainly a theme, in any event, the listeners would have recognized. When you're plump and prosperous it's hard to be humble. There's a real gap as far as how left and right interpret that particular bit. Neither side's much into humility, anyway.

Blessed are the righteous.

But what's does "righteous" mean? What would it have meant to Jewish listeners at the time? Hardly Christian, left or right.

Blessed are the peacemakers. I don't see any on left and right. Lots of insults and abuse. Lots of judgmentalism. Not a lot of peacemaking.

Turning the other cheek was limited in extent. It's not for things like being mugged, unless you're mugged for Christ.

As for "love they neighbor" that's from Leviticus. I've heard it referred to on DU as the greatest commandment, which is funny since the NT narrative says it's the second commandment and "like" the greatest commandment. I figure Jesus can quote himself, though.