Wed Jul 30, 2014, 11:23 AM

The burden of proof is on believers

There's been a lot of focus, and reframing the debate to focus on what atheists have to do, and what they believe, and what they have to prove. I just wanted to remind everyone where the burden lies, where it has always lain and where it always will. There has never been any proof put forward that has withstood a minimal amount of scrutiny.

Atheism is a rejection of the claim there is a divine being, not a declaration that there is none. All the favorite atheist boogymen have publicly stated that if there were one shred of evidence they would believe, but guess what?

So please, before we keep on with this trend of reframing debates, and resorting to personal attacks and tone policing, accept the burden of proof and either put up or shut up.

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336 replies	Author	Time	Post
The burden of proof is on believers (Original post)	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	OP
I have no burden here. I am not trying to convince you to believe.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#1
I think the point is	Goblinmonger	Jul 2014	#6
Thanks for your input. This was an excellent OP and discussion.Till it got involved in personalities	Brettongarcia	Jul 2014	#176
Then we need people like you to keep in mind who we are talking about if we happen to	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#74
People like me?	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#76
Yes, because we are talking about people who are not you.	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#77
What are people like me supposed to mean?	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#78
A political minority of progressives who are also religious.	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#79
And the op was not addressing people like me?	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#80
Are you engaged in tone policing or any of the deflection activities I mentioned?	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#82
Then who did the op mean? Only rw believers?	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#83
Is "tone policing" the current meme?	cbayer	Jul 2014	#166
Back story: as I recall, it was ms. cbayer herself that began objecting to atheists' "tone"	Brettongarcia	Jul 2014	#170
Exactly.	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#183
And I will also ask you to back that up.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#199
I don't believe that is accurate, so please don't repeat it without evidence.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#187
Post removed	Post removed	Jul 2014	#193
Wait, you are again accusing me of supporting genocide	cbayer	Jul 2014	#198
By supporting some things uncritically, you end up inadvertantly endorsing the bad things in them	Brettongarcia	Jul 2014	#203
So you are somehow making a link between African Americans and genocide in Africa.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#206
Correction: African Religions. Which have been guilty of bad things it seems.	Brettongarcia	Jul 2014	#211
I think you were over the top and should eithdraw your accusations.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#216
That's a real stretch, Brettongarcia.	pinto	Jul 2014	#208
Wow, just wow! Somethings continue to surprise me here.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#205
I'm rarely surprised anymore, but this one really takes the cake.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#213
He should wirhdraw it. His allegations are disgustiing and over the top.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#214
It makes not a bit of difference to me whether he withdraws it or not.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#218
I have come to expect it from him.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#220
I see a jury agreed and I hope someone posts the results.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#226
Then you should be more accurate and precise when you "slag believers".	rug	Jul 2014	#84
Yet, whenever we point out the god those Tea-RW types are worshipping isn't real its #NotAllReligion	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#85
I get your point but - dareisay - it's an overstatement.	rug	Jul 2014	#86
Who is we? I really like to know who I am dealing with when I respond to an	cbayer	Jul 2014	#167
Was I talking to you?	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#184
Does it matter? You are talking on an open board and anyone can respond to anything.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#192
I was responding directly to Rug's post.	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#200
I never thought it was tailored to me, I just wanted to know who you were speaking for.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#207
thank you for your input	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#89
I never said it wasn't. And I am allowed to respond.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#90
I never said you weren't	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#97
I mean I have no burdens to prove anything about my faith here.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#99
ok, but what about other believers who try to push their views?	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#100
If they are trying to convert yes there is a burden.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#101
ok, so you agree with the post	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#103
I think I misjudged what you were saying.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#104
Who is trying to prove anything?	cbayer	Jul 2014	#2
Maybe it was a generalization for crap like this	Phlem	Jul 2014	#5
Ok, let's make our point against Jody Hice then	cbayer	Jul 2014	#24
Really?	Phlem	Jul 2014	#73
Agree, this is not a christian nation.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#159
The real problem is why religion is powerful enough to be used as a weapon, cbayer.	trotsky	Jul 2014	#180
No, the real problem is why capitalist classes concentrate the power in the first place.	rug	Jul 2014	#195
How does the "power" use religions to divide and maintain power? n/t	Fix The Stupid	Jul 2014	#223
Currently, it is used in the U.S. to attempt to control women.	rug	Jul 2014	#227
I agree somewhat.	Fix The Stupid	Jul 2014	#229
Sure.	rug	Jul 2014	#249
Didn't you just post in a thread	edhopper	Jul 2014	#8
That was in a different thread so it doesn't count.	Warren Stupidity	Jul 2014	#10
I posted in that thread but did not endorse that idea.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#23
No you weren't	edhopper	Jul 2014	#25
Did not see that as obvious.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#26
Okay	edhopper	Jul 2014	#53
You are correct, I was not endorsing one model over the other.	Htom Sirveaux	Jul 2014	#117
Well, it either confused people or they saw only what they wanted to see.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#164
I'll be extra careful next time.	Htom Sirveaux	Jul 2014	#165
I think it's great that you write original posts.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#168
I wasn't criticizing at all, sorry for creating that impression.	Htom Sirveaux	Jul 2014	#169
The reason why this is such an important concept, cbayer, as many people keep trying to point out...	trotsky	Jul 2014	#29
thank you for your input	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#91
Yes, there are those here who believe in god.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#162
I think that you put your finger here on exactly who needs incurrs the burden of proof.	stone space	Aug 2014	#308
The burden of proof argument is just a deflection.	cbayer	Aug 2014	#323
You are correct	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#325
There is no there there? Are you sure?	cbayer	Aug 2014	#326
The comment is about not knowing why this thread is posted here	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#312
I honestly did not recognize that his was in response to that particular thread.	cbayer	Aug 2014	#324
I claim the opposite.	stone space	Aug 2014	#307
Well said. Every claim of fact needs evidence. No religious exemption. Where is the meat?	Fred Sanders	Jul 2014	#3
Agree, that is if the claim of fact is made.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#27
Error,	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#75
Error,	cbayer	Jul 2014	#160
"Certain persons...made shipwreck of...faith" (1 Tim 1.19); "test everything" (1 Thess. 5.21).	Brettongarcia	Jul 2014	#163
I realize that.	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#182
I agree that it is meaningless to anyone who doesn't share that belief.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#190
I do. Criteria about how believers make it an issue has been offered in this thread.	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#201
Can you point me to those criteria.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#212
Here's one.	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#219
Most who make "faith" claims turn, and claim holy certainty.Then the Bible sees problems with Faith	Brettongarcia	Jul 2014	#191
thanks.	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#92
I think if you were strong in your belief or understanding	upaloopa	Jul 2014	#4
The mistake is you're labeling atheism a belief.	jeff47	Jul 2014	#11
Well change the word to what?	upaloopa	Jul 2014	#13
Because there would now be proof.	jeff47	Jul 2014	#16
My only problem with your analogy	edhopper	Jul 2014	#14
Hence the quotes around "believe". (nt)	jeff47	Jul 2014	#15
Okay	edhopper	Jul 2014	#18
But did anyone claim to be an ablackmatterist?	cbayer	Jul 2014	#28
Yes. Everyone did.	jeff47	Jul 2014	#31
They may have been that, but no one claimed it and made a cause out of it.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#37
Which now leads us to divide-and-conquer	jeff47	Jul 2014	#39
I do not want to divide and conquer.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#42
Unite under your way of thinking.	jeff47	Jul 2014	#43
I dont' wish to eliminate those that oppose me, I want to eliminate those	cbayer	Jul 2014	#45
Adding additional clauses doesn't change the meaning.	jeff47	Jul 2014	#51
I'm not a believer. So look and see where your assumptions led you.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#158
Ah it is such a triumph every time you play that card!	Warren Stupidity	Jul 2014	#237
Are you saying she believes in God here?	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#244
I said exactly what I meant.	Warren Stupidity	Jul 2014	#250
She would disagree with you.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#251
She would not be honest in doing so.	Warren Stupidity	Aug 2014	#259
Calling her a liar?	hrmjustin	Aug 2014	#263
What is your point Justin? Alert trolling?	Warren Stupidity	Aug 2014	#264
I think this is an ugly and dispicable tactic on your part. Alert yourself.	hrmjustin	Aug 2014	#265
What? Noting that cbayer springs her clever trap on a regular basis?	Warren Stupidity	Aug 2014	#266
Funny how this tactic is employed by some here.	hrmjustin	Aug 2014	#267
That would be cbayer's spouse, the alleged atheist who hates all the other atheists here.	Warren Stupidity	Aug 2014	#269
I don't think your in a postion to judge others.	hrmjustin	Aug 2014	#270
of course I am.	Warren Stupidity	Aug 2014	#275
I think this point your tactics speak for themselves and it does not reflect well on you.	hrmjustin	Aug 2014	#276
I thought you weren't judging others.	Warren Stupidity	Aug 2014	#277
Warren this conversation is at an end. keep going if you like but I am done.	hrmjustin	Aug 2014	#278
Not it.	Warren Stupidity	Aug 2014	#280
have any proof to back that statement up?	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#295
Read what I wrote.	hrmjustin	Aug 2014	#296
So you don't	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#297
I don't have a star so I can nit do advanced search.	hrmjustin	Aug 2014	#299
No, you're being judgmental.	rug	Aug 2014	#279
FFS, cbayer!!!	trotsky	Jul 2014	#48
Some people here have made clear they want religion to disappear.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#49
There is a big difference between wanting religion	edhopper	Jul 2014	#54
I don't think she meant a purge physically.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#55
So what do you think people mean when you say:	edhopper	Jul 2014	#56
I don't think you guys want us in a bucket.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#58
It still connotes	edhopper	Jul 2014	#60
Ok. I doubt it was meant that way.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#61
Over here! Me!	Warren Stupidity	Jul 2014	#238
Yes Warren.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#239
You have my permission to call me out by name when referring to people	Warren Stupidity	Jul 2014	#241
Thank you.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#242
Because of Hobby lobby's beliefs	edhopper	Jul 2014	#12
Don't you ever want to take stock in your beliefs	edhopper	Jul 2014	#17
Another way of saying that...	gcomeau	Jul 2014	#34
thank you for your input	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#93
I hate to break this to you,	okasha	Jul 2014	#7
And yet - you demand that we respect what you believe.	mr blur	Jul 2014	#19
What is it you think okasha believes?	cbayer	Jul 2014	#30
did you read Okasha's post Cbayer?	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#87
Is there some particular reason why anyone but you	okasha	Jul 2014	#95
thanks for caring so much.	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#98
Of course I read it.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#161
I judged you by your own actions	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#179
Bout of rank hypocrisy?	cbayer	Jul 2014	#189
It's when you attack the way someone says something	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#298
Sometimes the way someone says something should be challenged,	cbayer	Aug 2014	#322
Actually, I demand that you stay out of what I believe	okasha	Jul 2014	#59
could you link that post about your beliefs	edhopper	Jul 2014	#62
My allegedly smart phone can't handle links.	okasha	Jul 2014	#66
I'll look	edhopper	Jul 2014	#67
Interfaith "Religious privilege" thread?	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#300
No if you look in interfaith there is a thread istarted called religious privilege.	hrmjustin	Aug 2014	#301
You're serious?	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#313
Because you say so? Because you can't control the debate?	hrmjustin	Aug 2014	#330
Wrong again.	okasha	Aug 2014	#304
Here's a hint:You can't have a discussion about religious privilege in INTERFAITH	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#314
Interfaith excludes no one but trolls and disruptors.	okasha	Aug 2014	#331
Yo do know atheists posts in interfaith, right?	hrmjustin	Aug 2014	#332
Demand away (it suits you), It would be my pleasure.	mr blur	Jul 2014	#69
But I don't flaunt my beliefs in public.	okasha	Jul 2014	#70
I know you and your partner love to read jury decisions, so here's yours. No need for thanks.	mr blur	Jul 2014	#230
Not my alert.	okasha	Jul 2014	#232
Not mine either. i wonder who your partner is.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#233
Me, too.	okasha	Jul 2014	#235
Think "comedy double act". You three should know -	mr blur	Aug 2014	#290
If there's three of us,	okasha	Aug 2014	#305
Ah there it is again: "I think it's past your bedtime".	Warren Stupidity	Aug 2014	#258
Well, well. Looky here.	okasha	Aug 2014	#310
Wow.	JNelson6563	Jul 2014	#40
but you do care Okasha, this post shows you care so much	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#88
Uhmmm, no.	okasha	Jul 2014	#96
this thread has over 100 replies, obviously your belief holds no merit	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#102
If my "belief has no merit"	okasha	Jul 2014	#255
When has "rug"	skepticscott	Aug 2014	#283
Multum in parvo.	okasha	Aug 2014	#309
I think the minute believers	edhopper	Jul 2014	#9
I think the more pertinent issue is separation of the church and state.	pinto	Jul 2014	#44
this is one of the important reasons I'm posting about this	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#94
the proof	BabbaTam	Jul 2014	#20
And what do you say about people like	edhopper	Jul 2014	#21
Burden of proof is a legal and a philosophical term.	rug	Jul 2014	#22
The tone police will be visiting you shortly because you put up and didn't shut up.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#32
They'd better have a warrant.	rug	Jul 2014	#36
And a straight jacket.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#41
I'll start letting people know "Blues" does not exist. (nt)	jeff47	Jul 2014	#33
Charlie Parker is God.	rug	Jul 2014	#35
No, no, no--Eric Clapton is God. nt	truebluegreen	Jul 2014	#63
How dare you use logic like that you irrational and deluded believer!	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#38
There's a series of books online that says the Bible values science & evidence, over faith. Citing:	Brettongarcia	Jul 2014	#173
This "Dr. Woodbridge Goodman, Ph.D." (sic) ?	rug	Jul 2014	#188
Yes, Dr. Woodbridge Goodman PhD. His books also appear in the Library of Congress.	Brettongarcia	Jul 2014	#209
Frankly, with his "Heaven-Shattering Second View", he sounds like a crackpot.	rug	Jul 2014	#228
Looks like BG	okasha	Jul 2014	#236
I was too polite to say.	rug	Jul 2014	#247
The sheer incoherence is a giveaway.	okasha	Jul 2014	#253
!	rug	Jul 2014	#254
My pleasure.	okasha	Jul 2014	#256
Faith is belief without the need for proof.	Maedhros	Jul 2014	#46
This is a great response.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#47
Religion serves as a code of ethics and moral guidance for individuals.	Maedhros	Jul 2014	#50
I deplore how the Separation clause of the US Constitution has been distorted. (nt)	pinto	Jul 2014	#52
I think Hobby Lobby	edhopper	Jul 2014	#57
It was Citizens United that broke it	okasha	Jul 2014	#64
Citizens United was awful	edhopper	Jul 2014	#65
CU bestowed "personhood" on corporations,	okasha	Jul 2014	#68
No question	edhopper	Jul 2014	#71
I agree.	okasha	Jul 2014	#72
Long term	edhopper	Jul 2014	#81
Sorry, not even close	skepticscott	Aug 2014	#285
Sorry, but it wasn't	skepticscott	Aug 2014	#284
Their moral code is frequently immoral.	Warren Stupidity	Jul 2014	#178
“A farmer went out to sow his seed.	Maedhros	Jul 2014	#197
Your conditiion is manifestly not met. So it is fair to demand proof.	Warren Stupidity	Jul 2014	#177
Demanding proof to what end?	Maedhros	Jul 2014	#194
14 of the current R/T ops about atheists/atheism were posted by non-atheists	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#105
Is that percentage higher or lower than those posted about religion by atheists?	rug	Jul 2014	#106
And look who immediately leaps up to take the bait.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#107
He has a point though.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#108
If you think that you've missed the point.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#110
yes I do care what atheists think. I think I have made that clear.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#111
Others don't.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#113
yes there are atheists who have tried to define me here.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#114
They tried to redefine your christianity?	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#116
One member here tried to tell me I was not really a Christian because I don't believe the rule book	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#119
So one atheist tried to do it to you one time.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#122
Not just once. people here have tried to define me many times.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#123
Did they say you weren't really a christian?	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#125
No he was trying to say Christianity is following the rile book and my faith is a theist faith.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#127
One time.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#130
I said it happened with others as well. I am not recounting every story because it woukd take too	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#133
Are your beliefs repeatedly questioned in this forum?	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#144
Yes they are. I accept that as a part of this forum.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#146
I'm not talking about why you believe but what you believe.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#148
Thanks my friend.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#149
Questioning belief is good, telling you what you believe not so much.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#151
Yes it is always good to question our views and to have them challenged.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#153
Let me see, is Gomer considered stupid or a liar?	rug	Jul 2014	#128
I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#132
no but it is insulting.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#134
Yes it is.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#138
Thats ok I made peace with the poster.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#139
I'm glad.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#141
Thank you. I appreciate your kind words.	hrmjustin	Jul 2014	#142
But it's pretty damned close to calling someone stupid.	rug	Jul 2014	#136
Ah, I see you have no answer.	rug	Jul 2014	#109
10 of the current ops are yours.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#112
At least. And you still haven't answered the question.	rug	Jul 2014	#115
Actually I have to feed the dogs and horses right now.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#118
Do you object? Do you have a monopoly on the topic?	rug	Jul 2014	#120
Name one atheist who posts threads at the same rate as you.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#124
That's not the question.	rug	Jul 2014	#126
Which individual atheist posts about religion as obsessively as you do about atheism?	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#129
You really shouldn't say "individual atheist" and "we" in the same post. It makes one wonder.	rug	Jul 2014	#131
Name the atheist who has as many threads about religion as you do about atheism.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#135
State the percentage of religion posts by atheists.	rug	Jul 2014	#137
You can't name an atheist who posts as obsessively as you do.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#140
You'd better check the jurors' faces before you rest on that.	rug	Jul 2014	#143
No jury needed, the numbers speak for themselves.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#145
What numbers? You haven't provided any.	rug	Jul 2014	#147
You have 10 ops about atheism/atheists on the first page.	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#150
Why are you striving so hard to not answer the question?	rug	Jul 2014	#152
A post by a non-atheist claimed that they don't give a damn what we believe	beam me up scottie	Jul 2014	#155
Regardless of why you posted, you still did not answer the question.	rug	Jul 2014	#156
That "you" is addressed to Lordquinton,	okasha	Jul 2014	#243
Religion affects all our lives.	trotsky	Jul 2014	#181
Sorry to hear you're puzzled.	rug	Jul 2014	#196
Depends on who is doing the arguing, doesn't it?	Htom Sirveaux	Jul 2014	#121
This message was self-deleted by its author	Phlem	Jul 2014	#154
thank you for your reply	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#171
In your opinion, is writing or publishing books attacking theism or defending atheism	Htom Sirveaux	Jul 2014	#172
here's the atheists "burden" answered for you.	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#174
Asking what counts as evidence is not a strawman.	Htom Sirveaux	Jul 2014	#186
Let's go back further than, say, last tuesday	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#272
What does "the floaty way the term is used now" mean?	Htom Sirveaux	Aug 2014	#273
Given that you just avoided a direct question	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#294
No, thank you!	Htom Sirveaux	Aug 2014	#311
You're correct, but I try anyways	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#316
I'm not shy about discussing reasons to believe that God exists.	Htom Sirveaux	Aug 2014	#318
You don't understand your own question?	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#319
I see, so your contention is that "caused by God" doesn't have a real meaning.	Htom Sirveaux	Aug 2014	#321
You have several logic holes	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#328
First, I didn't presuppose a creator, I made an argument for a creator.	Htom Sirveaux	Aug 2014	#333
There is no evidence that there is intelligent life anywhere in the universe.	cbayer	Jul 2014	#202
Intelligent life on other planets	phil89	Jul 2014	#210
And a god is at odds with the laws of physics or reality?	cbayer	Jul 2014	#217
You don't think gods are supposed to be supernatural	phil89	Aug 2014	#271
Well there you go, just reduce the definition of "god" to something that doesn't	Warren Stupidity	Aug 2014	#281
You just committed the same blunder again.	Warren Stupidity	Aug 2014	#282
There is intelligent life in the universe	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#287
You don't know if there is intelligent life in the universe other than on this planet	cbayer	Aug 2014	#291
Ok, step by step logic here	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#292
The discussion is about intelligent life in the universe other than on this planet.	cbayer	Aug 2014	#320
No, it is not. Those believers do not care what the non-believers think of them.	MADem	Jul 2014	#157
thank you for your input	Lordquinton	Jul 2014	#175
Neither side cares--that's my point. They both think the other is WRONG.	MADem	Jul 2014	#231
No, you are mis-characterizing the situation	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#317
No, I'm not. Just because you insist that people "have to prove it" doesn't mean that they	MADem	Aug 2014	#336
Except we live in a society subject to laws based on unsubstantiated claims	phil89	Aug 2014	#302
Of course it is.	Iggo	Jul 2014	#185
I don't think you understand the concept of 'belief'.	Erich Bloodaxe BSN	Jul 2014	#204
See Post 73: technically, "faith" claims assert no certainty, and no proof. But in actuality?	Brettongarcia	Jul 2014	#221
Maybe, if there were a burden of proof, which there isn't.	Starboard Tack	Jul 2014	#215
They do, if it's a basis for legislative advocacy/lobbying.	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#222
I don't see how that obliges anyone to prove anything regarding their personal beliefs.	Starboard Tack	Jul 2014	#224
If the Roman Catholic Church had its way, I would not have been allowed to create 9	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#225
What does that have to do with personal beliefs?	Starboard Tack	Jul 2014	#234
Their followers lobby, donate, and vote for laws to constrict my activities according to their faith	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#240
That is your right.	Starboard Tack	Jul 2014	#245
"It's a personal decision."	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#246
If that's what they are doing. I don't see anyone here doing that. Do you?	Starboard Tack	Jul 2014	#248
I don't see anyone here doing it. But I do see people here deflecting and defending when I point it	AtheistCrusader	Jul 2014	#252
What "moral lobbying"? What "authority"?	Starboard Tack	Aug 2014	#257
I have fucking explained this to you too many times to count.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2014	#260
Their "source" is faith.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2014	#261
We finally passed I-1000 over their objections.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2014	#262
Glad you won.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2014	#268
thank you for your input	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#274
I'm sorry, but I tried reading that 3 times and ended with a headache.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2014	#286
I'd suggest glasses, or grammar school to learn what punctuation is (because there was plenty there)	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#288
Sorry. I'm wearing glasses and the punctuation isn't helping.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2014	#289
So I'm assuming you have absolutely no counter to anything I've said	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#293
OK. Good morning!	Starboard Tack	Aug 2014	#327
You contradict yourself here.	okasha	Aug 2014	#334
It's a rejection of the claim a god or gods exist.	phil89	Aug 2014	#303
It is a rejection of the belief that a god exists.	Starboard Tack	Aug 2014	#329
The burdern of proof lies with anybody who wishes to convince others of his or her beliefs.	stone space	Aug 2014	#306
thank you for your input	Lordquinton	Aug 2014	#315
Thank you for your input.	stone space	Aug 2014	#335

Response to Lordquinton (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 11:26 AM

hrmjustin (71,265 posts)

The burden of proof is on believers

1. I have no burden here. I am not trying to convince you to believe.

6. I think the point is

176. Thanks for your input. This was an excellent OP and discussion.Till it got involved in personalities

74. Then we need people like you to keep in mind who we are talking about if we happen to

76. People like me?

77. Yes, because we are talking about people who are not you.

78. What are people like me supposed to mean?

79. A political minority of progressives who are also religious.

80. And the op was not addressing people like me?

82. Are you engaged in tone policing or any of the deflection activities I mentioned?

83. Then who did the op mean? Only rw believers?

166. Is "tone policing" the current meme?

170. Back story: as I recall, it was ms. cbayer herself that began objecting to atheists' "tone"

183. Exactly.

199. And I will also ask you to back that up.

187. I don't believe that is accurate, so please don't repeat it without evidence.

198. Wait, you are again accusing me of supporting genocide

203. By supporting some things uncritically, you end up inadvertantly endorsing the bad things in them

206. So you are somehow making a link between African Americans and genocide in Africa.

211. Correction: African Religions. Which have been guilty of bad things it seems.

216. I think you were over the top and should eithdraw your accusations.

208. That's a real stretch, Brettongarcia.

205. Wow, just wow! Somethings continue to surprise me here.

213. I'm rarely surprised anymore, but this one really takes the cake.

214. He should wirhdraw it. His allegations are disgustiing and over the top.

218. It makes not a bit of difference to me whether he withdraws it or not.

220. I have come to expect it from him.

226. I see a jury agreed and I hope someone posts the results.

84. Then you should be more accurate and precise when you "slag believers".

85. Yet, whenever we point out the god those Tea-RW types are worshipping isn't real its #NotAllReligion

86. I get your point but - dareisay - it's an overstatement.

167. Who is we? I really like to know who I am dealing with when I respond to an

184. Was I talking to you?

192. Does it matter? You are talking on an open board and anyone can respond to anything.

200. I was responding directly to Rug's post.

207. I never thought it was tailored to me, I just wanted to know who you were speaking for.

89. thank you for your input

90. I never said it wasn't. And I am allowed to respond.

97. I never said you weren't

99. I mean I have no burdens to prove anything about my faith here.

100. ok, but what about other believers who try to push their views?

101. If they are trying to convert yes there is a burden.

103. ok, so you agree with the post

104. I think I misjudged what you were saying.

2. Who is trying to prove anything?

5. Maybe it was a generalization for crap like this

24. Ok, let's make our point against Jody Hice then

73. Really?

159. Agree, this is not a christian nation.

180. The real problem is why religion is powerful enough to be used as a weapon, cbayer.

195. No, the real problem is why capitalist classes concentrate the power in the first place.

223. How does the "power" use religions to divide and maintain power? n/t

227. Currently, it is used in the U.S. to attempt to control women.

229. I agree somewhat.

249. Sure.

8. Didn't you just post in a thread

10. That was in a different thread so it doesn't count.

23. I posted in that thread but did not endorse that idea.

25. No you weren't

26. Did not see that as obvious.

53. Okay

117. You are correct, I was not endorsing one model over the other.

164. Well, it either confused people or they saw only what they wanted to see.

165. I'll be extra careful next time.

168. I think it's great that you write original posts.

169. I wasn't criticizing at all, sorry for creating that impression.

29. The reason why this is such an important concept, cbayer, as many people keep trying to point out...

91. thank you for your input

162. Yes, there are those here who believe in god.

308. I think that you put your finger here on exactly who needs incurrs the burden of proof.

323. The burden of proof argument is just a deflection.

325. You are correct

326. There is no there there? Are you sure?

312. The comment is about not knowing why this thread is posted here

324. I honestly did not recognize that his was in response to that particular thread.

307. I claim the opposite.

3. Well said. Every claim of fact needs evidence. No religious exemption. Where is the meat?

27. Agree, that is if the claim of fact is made.

75. Error,