Atheist billboard in Paterson draws shrugs from Muslims [video]

[rug]

Wednesday, March 7, 2012 Last updated: Wednesday March 7, 2012, 11:49 PM
BY JOEL SCHECTMAN
STAFF WRITER
The Record

A note of provocation was all too evident when an atheist group put up a huge billboard a block from the area’s largest mosque, saying in Arabic as well as English that religion is based on nothing more than myth.

And provocative it was – but not so much for attendants of the mosque as for the local Christian community that works and shops in this east Broadway neighborhood.

“People either believe in God or not. Why are you trying to change that?” asked Renee Rivera, a 36-year-old office manager from Elmwood Park. “It’s promoting an agenda. Why is it necessary?”

The big green sign with white and gold lettering, mounted above a liquor store at Broadway and East 33rd Street, was put up by the group American Atheists. It says, “You know it’s a myth ... and you have a choice.” It appears about a block away from the Islamic Center of Passaic County, the city’s biggest mosque. Its appearance provoked a civil but spirited debate between the mosque’s spiritual leader and the atheist group’s leader.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/030712_Atheist_groups_sign_aimed_at_Muslims_goes_up_in_Paterson.html

[ellisonz]

1. Watching the video...

...Mr. Silverman can go stuff himself, "I'm not trying to convert anybody" - "I want to convert the closeted atheist"

[rug]

2. Disingenuity is a cowardly and dishonest trait.

[ellisonz]

3. Seriously, what a horses-ass...

...he's not practicing what he's preaching - that's some pretty rank moral hypocrisy.

[2ndAmForComputers]

47. Does that apply to any espouser of a belief...

...saying they want to convert espousers of a different belief to their own belief?

[rug]

49. It has nothing to do with belief or disbelief. It's about lying about your intentions.

A/K/A "Who, me?"

[2ndAmForComputers]

53. If he believes his billboards won't convert any believers, but only affect closeted unbelievers...

...then he's not lying. And that's quite plausible.

Unless you think they CAN convert the faithful. Do you?

[rug]

54. People change their beliefs all the time. Belief and disbelief are quite changeable.

But not with this billboard.

[2ndAmForComputers]

57. Then your accusation of dishonesty and cowardice doesn't hold.

[rug]

58. It does. He denies he's attempting it.

That, or he has a strange belief that already convinced atheists are cowering in closets awaiting only a glimpse of his billboard to release them,

[2ndAmForComputers]

59. You yourself admitted the billboard isn't any good for converting.

Silverman knows that too. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, you know.

[rug]

60. Whatever his expectations, other than publicity, they haven't materialized.

Seriously, there are better ways to get out the message than these predictable billboards with their 48 hour news cycles.

[2ndAmForComputers]

64. "Whatever" his expectations. So you don't know them.

So your accusations are bogus.

[rug]

67. Do you?

If you don't, then by your logic, your defense of these actions is bogus.

[2ndAmForComputers]

69. I didn't jump to conclusions. You did.

[skepticscott]

62. Experience

is the best teacher, wouldn't you say?

[rug]

68. Sure.

If you smell enough shit you recognize it immediately.

[skepticscott]

70. And if you see enough disingenuity

you immediately recognize the cowards and liars whose posting history consists largely of dodging direct questions with passive-agressive BS, and pretending they can't answer when the truth is that they're embarrassed to.

[rug]

71. QED.

[skepticscott]

72. Perfect answer

[Silent3]

11. Really? That bothers you so much?

It's a poor choice of wording, but the second use of "convert" isn't about changing beliefs, it's about "converting" someone from being afraid to admit their lack of belief to not being afraid to admit their lack of belief.

Ooh! So sinister!

Besides, what's so wrong about trying to change someone's mind about anything? If it's OK to try to convince someone to vote for Obama instead of a Republican, if it's OK to try to convince someone to eat less meat or that Michael Manring is the greatest bass player ever, why is it wrong to try to change someone's mind about a religious issue?

I refuse to play along with this stupid meme that the "big problem" with any religious or non-religious viewpoint is efforts to promote that viewpoint. Only forceful imposition bothers me.

[ellisonz]

25. Douchebag hypocrisy is bothersome. n/t

[Silent3]

29. So is artificially created hypocrisy...

...pretending something is what it isn't so you can get outraged at it. Very Fox News of you.

[Goblinmonger]

31. Is douchebag Christian hypocrisy bothersome to you to

or just that of atheists?

[ellisonz]

33. Yes. n/t

[Politicalboi]

4. The more people know about being an Atheist

The better. It gives children an open window if they are stuck in a religious family. Atheist are still the "strange" in this country. We have to put up with religion ALL our lives. Even being dragged to church as a child. It should be called what it is, child abuse. Atheists, the other gays.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. "Atheists, the other gays."? LOL!

Not even remotely close. Atheism IS optional.

[immoderate]

9. It's not optional if you have a sense of reality.

--imm

[Behind the Aegis]

30. It is an option, a belief, not like being gay. Unless you believe that to be "optional" too.

[OriginalGeek]

35. Everyone is born atheist.

Atheism is the natural order of things until overturned by outside forces.


But I'm not interested in fighting about whether or not atheism is the other gay - the gay community has enough problems from people who hate them for me to cause extras hurt as one who supports them. I THINK all that politicalboi was saying is that atheist are discriminated against too. Not saying that gay people have it any better.

[Behind the Aegis]

36. And they can CHOOSE to remain so.

I didn't think he was implying gay people have it better, but it was an "apples and oranges" comparision to me.

[OriginalGeek]

40. Yes, You're right

apples and oranges mostly.

Although I think there might be some common ground where places like Bachman's pray away the gay intersect with indoctrination of children (The church I grew up in was very fond of starting kids on it as soon as they could understand spoken language. They were proud of it.)

[Behind the Aegis]

43. I agree with what you said.

I know there is very real discrimination and abuse against atheists. I follow hate crime stats fairly closely. I also know many religious people see atheists as a "challenge" just as they do us (gays, I mean). There are also many atheists who feel isolated, just as many gays do. I can see some commonalities, but to say "atheists are the new gays," is hyperbolic, at best.

[immoderate]

42. Beliefs are below the level of conscious.

I could say I believe in leprechauns, or the world is flat, or that my disembodied spirit will endure. But my conscious mind knows those notions to be nonsense.

I think sexual identity is pretty much developmentally hard wired, and on a deeper level. "Beliefs" seem to be subject to the "conversion" experience. Being gay (or straight) not so much.

--imm

[Behind the Aegis]

44. Not quite....

I could say I believe in leprechauns, or the world is flat, or that my disembodied spirit will endure. But my conscious mind knows those notions to be nonsense.

Your conscious mind only knows these things after other stimuli is introduced. Your conscious mind has no knowledge of any of those things.

[immoderate]

56. My conscious mind knows they are make believe.

I cannot chose to make them real. Does your conscious mind believe in leprechauns? Why not? When did you decide this, and on what "stimuli?"

--imm

[Behind the Aegis]

61. You are all over the map.

Does your conscious mind know the earth is not flat? How did you come to that conclusion? When you were poped out did you know this or did you learn it? Did you recieve an education or did this just suddenly come into your "consciousness?"

[immoderate]

66. Maybe I'm all over the globe.

Isn't your point that I could choose to believe the earth is flat?

I'll try......

Nope, doesn't work.

--imm

[deacon_sephiroth]

13. I would debate that

I was raised in religion, and it NEVER worked.

I attended christian schooling and wanted VERY MUCH to beleive, I wanted to have faith. Faith was exalted as the wonderful amazing trait that all the best people have, and deep down I knew all along as a child that I had none.

I cried myself to sleep at night thinking there was something wrong with me.

Turns out I just had the basic mastery of logic to realize that none of it made any sense, that the far more obvious explanations were being overlooked in favor of the more fantastical.

I couldn't be religious if I tried and I did for many years.

I could go to a church and claim a religion, sing the songs and celebrate the holidays but that's no different that gay men (or women) who get married and have a family and put on the facade because they think they are supposed to, it wouldn't be real. I wouldn't believe it, and I can't believe that you wouldn't understand that.

What option do I have? Self-delusion? Brain Washing? I hear the relgious right has camps to FIX me... sound familiar? Sound "remotely close" yet?

[humblebum]

20. Yes, the idea that there are such camps does sound "remotely close." They

have been used to cure people of their religious tendencies for decades.

[Humanist_Activist]

37. No it isn't, I can't believe in a god no more so than I can...

believe in a flat earth or a geocentric universe. I can pretend to believe, but that's simply being in the closet.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. And that is your choice.

[Humanist_Activist]

39. How is saying I can't believe something a choice?

I guess I could hit myself in the head with a hammer until my cognitive functions make critical thinking impossible. I don't think you understand, I TRIED to believe, and I couldn't, and its not like my story is unique.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Because belief is a CHOICE.

You and the others are conflating belief and knowledge. You may believe you can't believe in a higher power, but you can. You CHOOSE not to do so, which is fine.

[Humanist_Activist]

45. How can I choose? Really, I'm all ears...

you have to understand this, its not a belief, its a lack of belief due to doubt and skepticism. Its this combined with the lack of evidence and knowledge of a deity that makes me an atheist. I'm incapable of faith, in other words.

[Behind the Aegis]

46. And that lack of belief? That's a CHOICE.

You CHOOSE not to believe based on things you have LEARNED, not things which are innate. I doubt you are incapable of faith. Faith isn't only for religion.

Is an Israeli attack on Iran imminent? I DON'T BELIEVE it will happen. I don't KNOW that it won't, but based on what I do know and what I drew from that knowledge, it has led me to NOT BELIEVE an attack is imminent.

[Humanist_Activist]

63. Really? I have a question, can you believe that Sasquatch, the Loch Ness Monster,

Fairies, Dragons, etc. exist?

How about Zeus, Anubis, Ahura Mazda, etc. can you choose to believe they exist as well?

Think about it.

[Behind the Aegis]

65. Yes, I can believe all of them exist.

Does it make it so? No. But, belief is forumlated by other information, how it is interpreted, and whether one chooses to believe or not.

[Humanist_Activist]

77. I'm going to have to call bullshit on that, right now, choose to believe in Zeus with all your heart

Go ahead, start praying to him, and be sincere about it, no fakery. You just said you could, so do it, convert.

[2ndAmForComputers]

48. Making me believe in a god will be just as hard as making me attracted to a different gender.

Even if I wanted to.

There comes a point when it's no longer a choice. Can you choose to believe California is North of Oregon?

[Behind the Aegis]

50. Just because it is difficult, doesn't mean it isn't a choice.

You may feel like you have no choice, but in reality, you do.

Can you choose to believe California is North of Oregon?

Of course one can believe that; doesn't mean it is correct or factual. Just like people believe the earth is 6,000 years old. Like the others in this sub-thread, you are conflating belief and knowledge; they aren't the same thing.

[2ndAmForComputers]

51. Wow. Well, here's another thing I believe and can't choose to not believe.

Not giving due respect to the external reality is BAD. In other words, solipsism sucks.

[Behind the Aegis]

55. That may be, but at least you owned up to your choice.

[CJCRANE]

73. I agree with you.

Most people don't choose their sexuality - it just happens.

I think it's similar with belief or lack of belief, it just dawns on you that you're a believer or an atheist. It's not a conscious choice between two equally valid or possible options.

However, I'm not sure calling atheists the 'new gays' is a helpful idea in general.

[SATIRical]

32. Evangelical Atheists

Are no better than Evangelical Christians...

[skepticscott]

74. In a word: Bullshit

if Christian fundamentalists had their way in this country…I mean REALLY had their way, with no Constitution, no secular courts, no organizations championing freedom of religion and separation of church and state to get in their way, these are just a few examples of the way things would be:

-Daily religious instruction, prayer and Bible study would be required in all schools.

-Church attendance would be mandatory.

-Only Christians would be allowed to serve in elected office or as judges.

-All laws and all science education would have to conform with the Bible and meet the approval of religious leaders.
-Artificial contraception would be illegal.

-Divorce would be illegal.

-Blasphemy would be illegal.

-Working on the Sabbath would be illegal (except for football players and NASCAR drivers).

-Abortion would be illegal and punishable by death.

-Known homosexuals and atheists would be imprisoned or killed. Homosexual activity would be illegal and punishable by death.

-Extramarital sex would be illegal and punishable by death.

Now....tell us what the worst-case scenario would be if “evangelical” atheists had their way about everything, and then tell us which world you’d rather live in

[humblebum]

6. Oh, atheists are advertising alright, and yes they do have their right, but their message

is anything but positive. IMO, you can only shoot off so many of your toes before it becomes impossible to walk.

[Shadowflash]

7. Really?

Their message is 'anything but positive'?

How is the message of 'you don't have to live your life as a slave to an antiquated world view created by illiterate bronze-age goat herders' NOT a positive message?

I found that not having to constantly worry about keeping some cosmic deity happy or suffer for eternity quite uplifting.

The message of religion is the one that's anything but positive.

[humblebum]

10. You just validated my opinion. One fact you may not

be aware of is that not everyone shares your POV - myself included.

[deacon_sephiroth]

15. one fact YOU may not be aware of

not everyone that DOESN'T share your point of view is, negative, or "shooting off toes", as someone so recently and non-sensically put it.

I mean let's try that analogy for one second... atheists putting up billboards to raise awareness is "shooting off toes" who's toes? Our own? As Atheists, how does putting up a billboard remove any of our digits with firearms? And if we keep doing it we "won't be able to walk." What walking? where? What will happen to us as a consequence of these billboards that will prevent us or anyone from being mobile??

Do you read the things that you type?

[humblebum]

23. Actually, that was meant as hyperbole if you didn't catch on. Any

stronger or more descriptive opinion would most certainly not be allowed here.

[deacon_sephiroth]

26. that doesn't change the fact that it's nonsensical

Unless it was also ment to be nonsensical, in which case I did not catch on... nor see the point.

[humblebum]

27. Perhaps it's a sectional or cultural thing. I don't know. But,

if the intent of these advertisements is to present a more positive view of atheism, then the opposite is the result. Atheist groups need to fire their PR people. There. Is that easier for you to make sense of?

[pokerfan]

28. the only people blowing off their toes these days

seem to be the holier-than-thou religiously motivated politicians.

<insert pretty much any Saintorum quote here>

[Shadowflash]

16. I'm fully aware

That not everybody shares my point of view. I didn't claim that and that wasn't even the point. Way to change the subject.

I was responding to your assertion that the atheist message was 'anything but positive'. I even provided 2 examples to back back up my refutation of your claim. You provided no examples, at all, to support yours.

[Goblinmonger]

12. Oh, great, now they're targeting Muslims.

Wait...why didn't you go with that response on this thread? Didn't give you the subtle rhetorical response you got off the other one?

Edited to change "did" to "didn't" due to my idiocy.

[humblebum]

14. I wasn't aware that I gave that response

on this thread. What the rest of your blather is about, I have no clue.

[Goblinmonger]

17. Way to be coy. You jumped in with that on the billboard in a Jewish neighborhood.

Why not that argument against the atheists now? Do explain.

[humblebum]

21. Why are you arguing another thread here? However,

the sentiment expressed is certainly applicable here, too.

[2ndAmForComputers]

52. Please elaborate on what you think makes the message "anything but positive."

(Not that I don't know already, but I want to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.)

[Dorian Gray]

8. I don't understand

why the non-reaction is the surprising reaction. I would think that's how most people would respond to billboards. Of any type. Religious message or non-religious message.....

[Shadowflash]

18. You'd think.

It's pretty much how I respond to religious (and other) billboards.

[deacon_sephiroth]

19. THIS JUST IN!

Today is kind of a slow news day and nothing much is happening in places we were hoping it would.

[SATIRical]

34. It was meant to anger and inflame.

Fail on the part of that Atheist group.

[Dorian Gray]

75. But it didn't

people ignored it.

And the atheist group had a right to post the billboard as long as the billboard company agreed to it. I think this shows how ineffective billboard advertising really is.

[SATIRical]

76. You asked why the non-reaction was surprising

And the answer is because the folks that put it up expected and wanted it to enflame and enrage.

I'm just answering your question.