On "Christian" politicians and preachers screwing around...

[TreasonousBastard]

Most traditional Christianity takes the view that we are basically sinners and have to both watch ourselves that we keep to the straight and narrow, but seek forgiveness when we stray. The question is not whether we will stray, because it is our nature to, but how far and what do we do about it.

So, I have huge problem with anyone who makes a point of what a good Christian he or she is. Part of the point of being a Christian is knowing you're just as likely to be a scheming piece of shit but trying to control it. And in knowing that bragging is considered a sin. Jesus himself made a huge point of the Pharisees proclaiming their great faith and good works to be their direct road to hell. So, the bragging tells us you're a known sinner and probably won't stop.

Do not try to impress me or anyone else with what a great Christian you are, because you will eventually do something ungodly and hang yourself. Screwing around is between you and your wife and none of my business until you made it my business by staking your reputation on it.

If you are running for office, tell us about how you'll fix the roads, get good teachers, hire honest cops, and help us get jobs and housing. If that is your Christian calling, OK, but don't promise us you won't have a girlfriend on the side. We can forgive you if you can't get an education bill passed, but we don't want to get involved in your personal life.

Talking about your great faith while running for office also signals that you have nothing better to talk about.

And preachers... This is your business, and you are a spiritual leader. Just keep it in your pants or get another job. Like politician.

[hrmjustin]

1. I always thought of the church as a place for the broken.

[No Vested Interest]

9. "Broken" includes all of us, to a greater or lesser degree.

Ergo: the church (or place of worship) is a place for all of us.

[Warpy]

2. Christians are the only ones who expect their holy people to be sinless saints

If you've ever dealt with Asian Buddhist monk, you know what I mean, you're never certain if the guy is telling the truth or he's conning you, which is really as it should be. Even Buddha said not to take his word for anything but to check it out for ourselves.

[thucythucy]

3. The idea that American politicians have to proclaim without pause their "faith"

and their "patriotism" has always bothered me. More often than not these are blatant attempts at pandering, not to mention distracting voters from what the real issues should be. I often wonder how many actually believe the words they say.

Jesus himself clearly preferred that people not make a spectacle of their faith, and was obviously suspicious of the motives of those who do. I think the old cliché is true: if Christ were to return today, the religious right would have him crucified.

[No Vested Interest]

10. Faith proclamations by American politicians is a relatively recent phenomenum.

I've been following politics since my childhood in the 40's.
Although we were aware of a politician's religious leanings, I don't recall it as something on which a candidate campaigned.

John Kennedy made an effort in his speech to ministers to deflect attention from his religion.
We knew Jimmy Carter was a committed Christian, but he lived his faith rather than proclaiming it.

[struggle4progress]

4. +

[trotsky]

5. Why do you put "Christian" in quotation marks?

Can one only be a true Christian if they are sinless?

[rug]

6. Math.

[TreasonousBastard]

7. Because there is some question whether the loudly professing Christian is...

actually a Christian. I fall on the side of trusting humility over bombast.

And, no. Some Calvinists believed in predestination of the elect (and therefore perfect by definition) but most Christians accept some version of the Fall where we became essentially sinful and require some assistance from God to properly get it together.

As I thought I said above, traditional Christianity has us as basically sinners, although how we got there is up for discussion, and the whole point of Christ is to redeem us from our sins. Needless to remind anyone, much of the history of the Church has demonstrated our innate sinfulness, but that would tend to support human sinfulness and a more urgent need for salvation.

[trotsky]

11. Why do you think they might not be a Christian?

Are only non-Christians capable of being hypocrites?

[TreasonousBastard]

12. That makes no sense.

[Act_of_Reparation]

14. I think you'll find it does. Quite a lot of sense, in fact.

[trotsky]

17. Let me put it this way.

When a Christian does something hypocritical, at that moment do they become a "Christian" or are they still a Christian?

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

15. St Benedict of Nursa, the founder of the Benedictine order of monks

Said that it is more important to be a saint than to be called one.

Some quite nasty people have been canonized in the Catholic Church. Cyril of Alexandria (c. 376 – 444) was a howling bigot, driving Jews out of his diocese, and inciting the mob who literally tore to pieces Hypatia, the head of the Platonist school in Alexandria. (Many historians believe that the only reason Cyril was not charged in that case is that the civil authorities knew it would cause another riot.) As a young man, Cyril participated in the railroading of St John Chrysostom.

Speaking of John Chyrsostom, he was another bigot who preached some violently anti-Semitic sermons. Orthodox apologists try to claim that he was not bigoted, but their claims are simply not creditable.

St Jerome, the man who wrote the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible circa 410, was intensely misogynistic. He flatly disagreed with Augustine's Contra Mendacium -- "Against Lying" -- in which Augustine considered the question "Is it morally permissible to lie in furtherance of a good cause?" Augustine said no, citing Romans 3:8, "Shall we do evil that good may come of it? Of course not!" and the practical objection that when those who have been lied to discover the lie, they will doubt the goodness of the cause. This put Jerome in the interesting position of saying that lying can be moral. (Jerome once accused Augustine of refusing to respond to one of his letters, refusing to admit that Augustine's response had been lost in the mail.)

[Rob H.]

13. Because

Martin Luther King, Jr. = Christian but George W. Bush = "Christian."

Having your cake and eating it, too, is awesome.

[trotsky]

16. That appears to be the case.

I wish more people understood that no one benefits when we perpetuate the false meme that Christian = good.

[goldent]

8. Part of the problem is us making assumptions

I really don't hear a lot of religious people claiming they are a great Christian. But because they urge us to be Christ-like we just assume they must on the straight-and-narrow. Of course, I don't think they make a big effort to say they are not good Christians.