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Thu Oct 22, 2015, 10:36 AM

How about a discussion about foul weather riding?

Rain gear, fenders, maintenance, eye wear and whatever.

We have been in drouthy conditions since mid or late June. Today I rode in what the Irish would call a soft day. No fenders on the bike and wore a cheap poncho purchased at the RenFair a couple of years ago.

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Reply How about a discussion about foul weather riding? (Original post)
TexasProgresive Oct 2015 OP
happyslug Oct 2015 #1
olddots Oct 2015 #2
TexasProgresive Oct 2015 #3
w0nderer Oct 2015 #4
happyslug Oct 2015 #5
olddots Oct 2015 #6
TexasProgresive Oct 2015 #7
happyslug Nov 2015 #8
hibbing Nov 2015 #9

Response to TexasProgresive (Original post)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:43 PM

1. This has been discussed, but more about winter and snow biking then rain biking:


Last edited Fri Oct 23, 2015, 05:15 PM - Edit history (4)



I find fenders help a lot in wet weather and a poncho may be the best bike rain gear (it permits air to flow around your body better then a rain jacket and pants).

In snow, I find regular bike tires are fine, but the cars and trucks quickly pack down the snow to ice and then I have to use my studded tires on my bike.. You can feel the increased roll resistance with the studded tires, but when I have them on my bike I do NOT slip in ice.

I purchased mine over ten years ago from Peter White Wheels in New Hampshire. They lasted ten years for I do NOT put them on till long after the first snow (i.e. I only put them on the bike once the snow starts to STAY on the ground as oppose to melting within a day). In Johnstown some years that NEVER happens, so I NEVER put them on. The last few years, that does not occur till after Christmas but is over by the end of February. Thus I have them on my bike less then two months a year (When I take them off, you really notice the difference in Roll Resistance).

Peter whites sells several different types of studded tires, but unless you are going off road in the road and mud, stay with the tires with the least studds:


If you want to go in the snow and mud, here is a photo of the tire to get:


Now, as to fenders. if you buy them make sure the WIDTH of the fender is at least 1/2 inch (12mm) wider then your tire. That will give you an extra 1/4 each (6mm) on each side of the tire when it throw gunk up hopefully into the fender. I am presently using SKS Longboard fenders on both my 26 inch Cannondale mountain bike AND my 27 inch Schwinn (the fenders on the Schwinn are for 700 cc wheels, but the 27 inch and 700 cc wheels are close enough for them to work).

Bicycle tires are traditionally measured in terms of their wheels AND nominal tire. Thus a 26 x 2.25 is actually 26 inch in diameter, but if you use a smaller tire, a 26x1.5 it will be much smaller then 26 inch in diameter. Thus the more uniform measurement is the ISO, which is a measurement of the WHEEL only (no tire):

26 inch = 559 ISO
27 inch - 630 ISO
700 cc = 622 ISO

Notice you have 71mm difference in circumference between a 26 inch wheel and a 700 cc, but only a 8mm difference between a 700cc and a 27 inch. That 8 mm is important, the tires on a 700cc and a 27 wheel are NOT INTERCHANGEABLE, but inner tubes for 700cc can be used in 27 tires. Fenders for 700cc wheels can be used in 27 inch wheels.

Now, I have SKS Longboards on both my 27 inch wheel Schwinn (thin wheels, turn down handlebars) and on my 26 inch Cannondale (wide wheels, straight handlebars). Also remember 27 inch wheels are only 8 mm LARGER then 700 cc wheels.

I mention the above for the SKS Longboards for 26 inch wheels are DIFFERENT then the SKS longboard fenders for 700 cc wheels. By different I mean something MORE then the difference in the fender to work with each wheel. The 700cc Longboards go almost to the ground when you include the mudflap at the rear bottom of the fenders. When I take my Schwinn with its 700 cc Longboard Fenders, the mud flaps at the rear bottom of the front fender hits and bends when I am taking the bike down steps. The mud flap end is about two (2) inches above ground.

On the other hand the Longboard fenders for 26 inch wheels will clear any step, the mud flap's bottom.is about eight (8) inches off the ground and I am NOT the only one to notice this difference, it is made in the comment section on the Amazons web site in regards to the 26 inch longboard fenders. The mud flaps at the bottom of the fenders on my Connodale mountain bike NEVER hit the steps when I take the bike down steps.

Peter White sells stainless steel made in France Fenders:

If you install fenders, you have to make sure the fender is as close the tire as you can put them WITHOUT coming in contact with the Tire. The Closer to the tire, the less chance Gunk will get around the fender.

SKS also sells a CHAIN GUARD for "10 speed" bikes. SKS has three sizes make sure you pick one that is larger then the largest FRONT gear. Now, SKS chain Guard has a part that needs to be broken off (it is PRECUT) to permit the cables that controls the front gears to have freedom of movement. I had a problem installing the Guard, for it is designed to be held by the front crankset and I had a problem getting if off. I ended up taking the Guard to my local bike dealer who installed it for a nominal fee (I am a steady customer of his so he takes care of me on minor items like that).

The Chain Guard does NOT completely cover the chain like the old chain guards on the single speeds of my youth, but it has kept the chain from putting grease on my pants legs and that is all I can expect from it.

On the downside, the Chain Guard does make it harder to get to the chain when it gets off the front gears. That does NOT happens that often, but when it does the guard is in the way. You can work around the guard but it does add some seconds to getting the chain back in the gears.

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Response to TexasProgresive (Original post)

Mon Oct 26, 2015, 02:54 PM

2. I want winshield wipers for my damned eye glasses


its been a constant search for some fogless goggle type glasses that actually work .

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Response to olddots (Reply #2)

Mon Oct 26, 2015, 04:32 PM

3. Where's Hermione when you need her?

And her Impervius spell. She used this spell to make Harry's glasses repel water during a rainy Quidditch match.

Seriously I've wondered about RainX. Here's a discussion:

Wipers would be nice.

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Response to olddots (Reply #2)

Tue Oct 27, 2015, 12:59 PM

4. if it's REAL glass in the lenses (not plastic)

rain x or a carnuba wax (make sure there is no polish grit/compound in it (most car waxes have that stuff in it and it'll kill glasses) layer will help it run off faster, again __only__ for 'real real' glass , and it can still mess up your surface coating (anti reflex or so)
as always ask optician :-/ my glasses were safe for it 4 years in they haven't shown wear or damage, but..ask ask ask

then again for tropical downpours (what i have to deal with) ..i some times take the glasses off, squint eyes, pedal and scream since i can't see anyway and hope for the best (i think it's the berserker in me) :-p

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Response to olddots (Reply #2)

Tue Oct 27, 2015, 06:15 PM

5. I find the best solution to rain on eye glasses, is a brim...


Last edited Tue Oct 27, 2015, 07:31 PM - Edit history (1)

When I am wearing a brim, I tend to make sure the brim of the hat or the helmet take most of the rain. When I was basic training, the Army was still issuing the Vietnam era Baseball cap. I hated that hat, hard to keep on your head and the brim sat to high above the eyes to keep anything out of the eye.

Now, when the BDU uniform came out in 1981 (Yes it came out under Reagan, but designed under Carter) it brought with it what many people call a "Ranger Hat". It was a much better hat, it sat lower on the head and would stay on your head in moderate wind (something that was NOT true of the Vietnam Era Baseball cap) and do to its design the brim was closer to the eyes, thus blocking sun on sunny days and rain on rainy days. I use it to this day (through the hats I wear today are NOT army color, I find khaki a better color, on the grounds being Khaki, it reflects most light and thus keeps some of the heat of the sun off you in the summer time, remember White reflects sunlight, black absorb sunlight and the original BDUs had a lot of black in them, and we tended to roast in them on hot days, since the 1990s the Army has slowly removed most of the black from their battle uniforms for that reason).

Till I started to wear bicycle helmets in the 1990s, I wore BDU hats more for the brim then anything else (the brim not only can be used to deflect rain from your eyes and eyeglasses, it can be used to reflect oncoming car headlights). My first few bicycle helmets had no brim, so I wore the BDU hat under the helmet, thus I had a brim.

Between using Fenders on my bike, and having a large brim on my helmet I rarely get rain on my glasses (and I have worn glasses since Grade School). Now in recent years I have gone to wearing a full face bicycle helmet. The problem with the full face is in winter when I am breathing heavily going up a grade to my home, the heat from my breath tends to be driven by the full face helmet to my glasses, which then fogs up. In a conventional bicycle helmet the breath goes forward and NOT to my glasses and thus rarely do my glasses fog up when using conventional bicycle helmets.

I like the full face, for studies have shown 40% of all head injuries involve the jaw bone and that is protected in a full face helmet, but NOT in a conventional bicycle helmet. On the flats and going down hill, I have no problem with the full face, but going up a steep grade )a 10% grade for one block) when temperatures are just above freezing or lower, I notice my glasses fogging up. I end up just stopping and cleaning my glasses at the top of the grade.

If I avoid steep grades, the speed of the bike and my breathing prevents my glasses fogging up. It is the increase breathing AND slower pace going up those grades that my glasses fog up when wearing a full face helmet.

My point is a full brim and wearing the brim in such a way that rain or snow do NOT hit your glasses is the best way to handle rain and snow and glasses.

People forget that windshield wipers were only invented n 1903, but were hand powered till 1919 (and it was vacuum powered, electric windshield wipers was a 1960s introduction).


Today, most vehicle windshield wipers are electric. Older vehicles could have electric, vacuum, hand or air powered wipers. Air power wipers were popular on trucks with air breaks such as the US Army M356 series of trucks. The US Army M35 2 1/2 ton trucks used air power wipers, I am unfamiliar with the upgrades to the M35s made in the 1990s, which included converting them to automatic transmissions but I am familiar with both the gas and diesel powered versions of the M35 with manual transmissions. The 1990 era upgrade may have included conversion to electric wipers. The original M35 had air powered wipers, with backup manual mechanism, but NO washer, an upgrade may have included not only replacement of the Air driven wipers but the addition of a washer for the front windshield.

In the days BEFORE the interstates and other limited access highway, many truckers (and car drivers) opt for visors over their windshields to keep the rain off the windshields. At speeds less then 20 mph, these visors were adequate (thus quite popular in urban areas in the 1920s and 1930s through most people in Urban area did not embrace the motor vehicle till after WWII). In the 1930s you started to see the first roads actually built for high speed travel as oppose to paving old cover wagon roads, and at that point the visor was found NOT to provide adequate protection from the rain (one result of this is that most states started to require windshield wipers in the 1930s).

My point is a visor (or hat brim or helmet brim) can provide adequate eye protection from the rain and snow if speeds are kept below 20 mph AND you keep your head down. That was true of motor vehicles before their sped up in the 1930s and true of bicycling today.

Remember US 30, the FIRST TRANSCONTINENTAL PAVED HIGHWAY was only finally fully paved in 1935. Till then (and even afterwards), unless you lived in an Urban Area (and most Americans ONLY started to do that in the 1920 Census) you more then not had to travel on a dirt road:


In the Pittsburgh Area, urban areas tended to force Streetcars to maintain the streets the streetcars were on. In such agreement, the 11 feet the streetcars used had to be maintained by them, the other 5 feet, to get two eight foot lanes, were to be maintained by the municipality the streetcars were operating in. In the west end of Pittsburgh the older suburbs in the 1920s to 1950s period never maintained them, thus you had a paved 11 foot section of pavement with 2 1/2 feet of unimproved road between the streetcar tracks and its pavement and the sidewalk. I bring this up to show how slow most roads were pre about 1940. Yes, you had some paved super highways in the 1920s (the "Parkway" Movement started in that period. at first a Parkway was a road through a park, but starting in the 1920s became highways) but as a whole most roads pre 1940 remained dirt roads for use by horse drawn wagons:


Here is a photo of the Streetcar right of way paved, but the rest of the street unpaved:


A Photo of how the ROAD and STREETCAR RIGHT OF WAY should have looked like, the extra 2 1/2 feet on both sides of the tracks paved:

Just a comment on why Visors were competitive with Wipers till you finally had what we would call ROADS and that is not till after WWII.

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Response to TexasProgresive (Original post)

Fri Oct 30, 2015, 10:18 AM

6. thanks the brim is a very good solution


I tossed my brim because I thought it looked dorky ( yeah like it would slow me down as if I was actually fast )

The cheesey yellow rain suits work great too even though they aren't aerodynamic atleast nobody will acuse you of loosing bladder control .

Next up lighting options .......I trust people here more than bike sites that can get hacked .

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Response to olddots (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 30, 2015, 02:13 PM

7. You're such a fun guy olddots.

I guess your wife can put up with it because you spend so much time on the bike.

You know when you're of a certain age no matter what we wear we are dorky. I have ceased to care.

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Response to olddots (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 2, 2015, 06:35 PM

8. Lights? I thought we talked about that before...


Last edited Tue Nov 3, 2015, 10:20 AM - Edit history (6)

I know it was a subthread but it was talked about:



Now, in my youth (the 1970s) I used a cheap generator to power the lights. That generator had the tendency to tear apart tires. In the 1990s I used various lights, including a Sears Die Hard rechargeable light (which had a wide light, one side affect of it was drivers of automobiles thought it was a motorcycle light and actually cut their high beams for me, something I never had drivers do when using regular bicycle lights).

In the mid 1990s I broke down and purchased a Schmidt Son generator. I had read about how good high end generators were, so I decided to buy one. The SON is a product of Germany and is a generator located in the front hub (Schmidt use to sell a barrel generator that was powered by a roller that ran on the tire, like my old cheap generator, but I opt for the SON for it was a hub generator).



I liked the SON and abused it. Schmidt only guaranteed them for three years in the 1990s (the Guarantee is presently five years) so after ten years of abuse, my first one died. I purchased a second one in 2005 and I am still using it. I liked it for it provided two to three hours of lighting that I needed. The battery and rechargeable lights of the 1990s could NOT do that. Remember in the 1990s we are talking about Incandescent lights only, and those lights just ate up battery power. A generator light could go all night, for you generated the power as you moved along, thus you could have battery lights all night (or day) long.

The down side of generator lights, is the only one worth getting tend to be high in price. Yes, there were cheap generator, but most slow you down do to their poor construction when they were not tearing your tires apart. The high end generators, were and are a lot easier on biking. I replaced a front Shimano XTR front axle, with a heavier wheel and a Schmidt SON generator hub and I notice NO difference in biking (Schmidt says they is a slight decrease in performance between the XTR front hub and the SON Hub but I notice no difference). Given my previous experience with low end bike generators this was a pleasant shock. I am still using a Schmidt SON on my bike.

Now, if you had asked my in the 1990s what was the best bicycle light to get, i would have said the Schmidt generator with a Busch and Muller light. As to tail lights, but the 1990s LEDs have come to dominate the tail light market. LED taillights, being turned on for two to three hours a night, could last a month without having the batteries to be replaced.

Since the 1990s, LEDs have slowly improved. I notice LED on Bicycle tail lights in the early 1990s, in large tractor trailers by 1995 and in automobiles tail light by 2000 (Yes, large trucks had them first, given most large trucks only last about 18 months and truckers do NOT want to be stopped for a dead tail light, they had incentive to adopt LED lights). Please note mid size trucks travel half the distance most cars (and light trucks) travel in a year, but tractor Trailers do three to four times (and often more) miles then Cars do in a year. Thus a lot of mid size trucks on the road still use Incandescent lights. but almost all of the Semis use LEDs (Trailers also last longer then the 'Tractors" that haul them, so many trailer still have Incandescent lights)/

Anyway, LED HEADLIGHTS for Bicycle started to come out about 2000, but were expensive and inferior to Incandescent lights of 2000. By 2005 LED lights for Schmidt Generators lights were better then the Incandescent lights for the Schmidt, thus when I purchased my second Generator I also purchased a LED Light for the Generator. The reason why LED lights for the Schmidt was superior to Battery LEDs as late as 20905 was simple, people with high end generators were willing spend a lot more money on a light then people looking for a battery light. Given this willingness to spend more money, high end LED light makers catered to the people willing to spend the money. Thus as late as 2005, I would say Generator Lights were still heads and shoulders above battery lights.

I can NOT make the same claim today. Today, you can purchased a very good LED light, with more power then a Generator Light can produce and that light provide power for 6 to eight hours before it needs new batteries or to be recharged. Thus the main advantages of Generator lights is gone. On the other hand the secondary advantage, that you do NOT have to check the battery to make sure you have lights, remains (Generator lights just need the bike to move to have light, dead batteries is NOT a concern for someone with a Generator).

Side note on Lumens, Lux and Candela:

Lumen is the measurement of total light from a source:


Lux is the measurement of light per area:


The Germans tends to use Lux, for they want to measure the usable light as oppose to total light output. The US, Japan and most of the rest of the world tend to use Lumens for total light tends to provide larger numbers then usable light measurements.

Here is a table converting the two, through please note a Lux is defined as "The lux is one lumen per square metre:


More on Lumens and Lux:


To add to the confusion you have the Candela, or the measurement of light per a solid angle.


US Headlight regulations use the Candela in its regulations on Automotive headlights.

Conversion between Candela and Lumens:


Please note to use the above conversion you need to know the angle the light is being measured.

Now, the US tend to use Candle power (Which is NOT the same as Candela, through both are based on the concept of light produced by a Candle) which is defined as One (1) candlepower equals 12.57 lumens (Please do NOT confuse Candle Power with Candela, defined above):


I also found a conversion between Lumens and Watts, based on various light sources (including LEDs). Please note this conversion is an approximation for these two SI measurements are measuring two unrelated measurements, Light and power. Power is used to produce light, but the conversion factor varies between how the power is being used to produce light and that varies even between the same means of the conversion. i.e. the conversion used 60 as the rate a LED converts watts to lumens, but an LED could produce 50 Lumens or 70 Lumens depending on the actual LED bulb being used. Thus use this conversion as a guideline not as an absolute number when you use the conversion.


Someone once corrected me that Watt is NOT a measurement of power, but that is NOT what Wikipedia says:

"In physics, power is the rate of doing work. It is equivalent to an amount of energy consumed per unit time. In the SI system, the unit of power is the joule per second (J/s), known as the watt in honour of James Watt, the eighteenth-century developer of the steam engine."


Here is the US Regulations as to Auto Headlights, its used Candela when setting forth what a US Headlight is suppose to produce, and then uses watts to set how much power is being used to produce the light produced by a headlight:


Please be careful when reading the above regulation, the Regulation cite the number "55", "70" etc in Table IIa and that seems to indicate WATTAGE NOT LUMENS. Then in later table CD or Candela is used, but only for light at a set angle, NOT total light from that headlight.

Thus 20,000 Candela (A number listed in the tables for headlights) converts to 8 lumens at 1.3 degrees.

Using the above conversion program, a 35 watt headlight (Typical Low beam for a Automobile) will produce 525 Lumens in a conventional Automotive headlight. A 55 Watt Headlight (Typical High Beam) will produce 835 Lumens in a conventional headlight.

I bring this up for you can see 525 Lumens is what most cars are producing with low beams, and 825 lumens are what most cars are producing with high beams. In my opinion any headlight for a BICYCLE should be at or below 525 Lumens for high way use (unless you have quick way to turn it off or otherwise NOT pointing the light at an auto driver). Please note, given the above conversion program and its error rate, 600 Lumens is a good cut off for "Low beams'.

I bring this up, for I have a tendency, even in the 1990s, if adding a "High Beam" to my bicycle, in the form of a helmet mounted headlight. I liked them about 1000 Lumens and used them as high beams. I like them on my helmet for when I car approached me from the front I would turn my head to the side of the road and NOT blind them (I turned if off in areas with streetlights, I live in a mix urban-rural area, I also did not use the "High bean" in areas with extensive auto traffic).

Today, you have to go with LED headlights. Try to get one with at lease 500 Lumens if traveling on roads without street lights. On roads with Streetlights 100 Lumens will do for on such streets the main purpose of a headlight is to be seen NOT to light up the road in front of you.

On roads without street lights and low traffic a mix of a 500 Lumen and a 1000 Lumen headlight are ideal, just remember to turn off the 1000 Lumen Light when you have oncoming traffic (or at least turn it away from such drivers). Please also remember the 500 and 1000 lumens are GUIDELINE numbers not absolute numbers, thus a 600 lumen with a 1200 lumen high bean would work for most people on roads without streetlights.

One last comment. It is ILLEGAL to use flashing lights in Germany. The reason for that rule is when people see something flashing, they tend to be drawn to it. Thus flashing lights tends to draw drivers to you on your bike and you really do NOT want that. Thus do NOT use flashing lights.

Sidenote. Germany has made an exception to its ban on flashing lights. Someone had produced a generator power lights on the peddles of a bicycle, with the generator inside the peddle. It is a small generator and can not produce the power to provide full power, thus the exception. This is the only legal flashing light one can use on a bicycle in Germany:


As between Generator, rechargeable and battery lights, some comments:

Generator: expensive, reliable, questionable cost to benefit ratio today.

Rechargeable: Intermediate in price. If LED (and only buy LED) reliable and can last six to eight hours on a charge. Downside, must be recharged, can not just buy new batteries. Upside, USB power sources are world wide today, you just have to purchase a converter from whatever is the local power source to the USB cable.

Battery powered lights: Cheap, but have to buy new batteries when the old battery run out of juice. This can be minimized by buying rechargeable batteries, but the newer rechargeable using USB cable can be recharged almost anywhere given a power source and a converter from that power source to a USB cable. Just a comment that I would opt for a LED with a USB rechargeable battery over a Battery powered Light,

I like my generator lights, and I will continue to use them (and may even buy a replacement when it goes bad) but I believe the most cost efficient option for lighting is a LED Light with a USB recharging option. Name brands I am NOT that big on. Before the LED revolution I used Nite Rider lights in addition to my generator light. I like pushing made in US things and Nite Rider is Made in the USA:


I notice Nite Rider has 600 Lumens lights for road use and 3500 Lumen lights for off road usage. The 3500 lumen had only a two hour life expectancy, so I will tend to say it is to much for to little UNLESS you are going off road biking at night (3500 Lumens is WAY to bright to be used on any roads with oncoming traffic). I am sorry, I tend to go off road at night only on full moon nights and then I do NOT ride but I also do not use any lights (You be surprised how much you can see at night with a full moon, if you let your eyes adjust to the lack of light and such adjustment takes 30 or more minutes of NO light to make such an adjustment). The Full Moon will provide more then enough light if you leave it (Please note, the full moon will NOT provide you enough light to RIDE at night without a light, but the full moon will provide you enough light to WALK without a light except in areas with heavy tree cover).

Remember your night vision. On one bike ride I take, I ride to the Staple bend tunnel outside of Johnstown. When I hit that tunnel during daylight hours, my headlight looks weak as I bike through that tunnel. One time I road back, but by the time I reentered the tunnel it had turned dark, and my light appeared much brighter then it had earlier in the day. This was due to my eyes had adjusted for the decline in sunlight with the setting of the sun. I bring this up for when you go through tunnels, you need more light during the day time then at night do to your eyes, in the daylight hours, not adjusted for the darkness of the tunnel, but at night the tunnel is just a little bit darker then outside the tunnel, thus your eyes had time to adjust to the lower level of light and the light in the tunnel appears greater.

Snow on the ground also increase your night vision. I have gone cross country snow shoeing without lights with a full moon and snow on the ground. You can even travel in tree covered area, provided the trees are NOT evergreens. Last winter I even was able to take photos inside the Staple Bend tunnel due to the reflection of light from outside the tunnel, reflection caused by snow cover.

Just a comment on night time riding. On pave roads or bike paths, lights of 600 lumens or less are good enough, it is only if you are going on single tracks through the woods that you need more light. People who are doing such single track night rides are the ones buying Nite Rider 3500 lumen lights, the rest of us do not need that much light.

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Response to olddots (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 12:59 AM

9. Lights and Weather

I pass riding in the rain, it is just not fun, not that I haven't done it. You can buy all the fancy stuff you want, but from my experience you still feel like you are riding in a plastic bag and sweat like crazy for anything longer than a short ride.

I actually like riding in the cold though. Went out today for a long ride and it was 22 out. Layering and wool socks I find work good for me. As for layering on cold days, a baselayer, a polyester shirt, a light biking jacket and I absolutely love Bontrager thermal jersey over that. They are all relatively thin, but my core never gets cold. My toes sometimes get a bit chilly though. Lobster claw gloves if it gets below 20. A MUST have is an under the helmet hat. I have one I got from Performance that comes down over my ears. Also, for below 20 I wear a gator thing that covers my nose and face.

I got tired of buying cheap lights so I splurged this fall. For my headlight I got the Light and Motion Urban 600, bright as all heck. However, on brightest it only lasts a bit over an hour. That is fine with me as I only ride at dusk on the way home from work. I'm not sure what taillight I got, but is nice one too.

I've only been commuting and recreational riding seriously for about 6 years, so just my two cents.

I may have already posted in this thread, but it is too late and I don't want to go back after typing all this up.


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