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Related: About this forummalthaussen
(17,175 posts)Hell, he's not even the greatest shortstop.
-- Mal
Elwood P Dowd
(11,443 posts)I would take him over The Scooter or Tony Kubek.
malthaussen
(17,175 posts)His WAR is something like 30 more than Scooter's, and he played in a thousand more games. Definitely a great player, but just barely in the top ten of shortstops all-time, depending on how you measure it.
In fairness to Rizzuto, though, he did lose what would have probably been his three best career years due to the war. But that wouldn't have been enough to put him over Jeter.
Generally, though, I prefer a shortstop who can actually, uh, play shortstop.
-- Mal
wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)the only 2 that compare to him in the same era were larkin and Ripken. All the shortstops in the sixties were pure fielders. Don't even get me started with Wagner. please. I grew up and saw the greatest player Willie mays. you are probably one of those guys who think Aaron was better.
malthaussen
(17,175 posts)For one thing, he was a center fielder...
But I can't name my top 10 shortstops without including Wagner and people who played before I was born. Obviously if you want to limit the discussion only to guys who played since WWII, Jeter's rank goes up. As for the Fifties, I think you forget Ernie Banks, who was at his best as a hitter when he played shortstop (by far), and was a better fielder than Jeter if dWAR is anything to go by. Jeter could never have moved to 1B because he lacked 1B power. And what about A-Rod? He was a decent shortstop before he joined the Yankees. No way Jeter was going to move to third, so Rodriguez got it by default.
Robin Yount? About interchangeable with Jeter as a hitter and a better fielder. Alan Trammell? Not quite as good a hitter, but a better fielder. Ozzie Smith? Best-fielding shortstop ever, and he was a useful hitter. Hell, I'll even throw in J-Roll, since I live in Philly, although he hasn't the longevity or the overall offense of Jeter. And Rollins actually deserved two of his Gold Gloves. Troy Tulowitzki needs to play for 10 more years before he can be part of this discussion, but dang, the kid is good. What is it, three years he's led in range and fielding percentage with an adjusted OPS ten higher than Jeter's? I hope he has a good, long career.
You already mentioned Ripken and Larkin, so I'll just say I think they were both better than Jeter, taking into account that they were both pretty good shortstops and good hitters.
Incidentally, I grew up watching Roberto Clemente, and I don't think he was better than Mays, either.
-- Mal
wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)i always thought he was overrated. He's more famous for breaking Gehrig's record(which there were many times he should have sat as he was injured). Ripken's lifetime BA is 278
Larkin was great but if Derek didn't get injured he would have hit close to 3700 hits and I actually think the year out cost him dearly( he was never the same) his lifetime BA is .312 which is very high and he had 216 hits at 38. A remarkable number. Like many people you denigrate hitting for average and that other people had more power.
Rose had little power and he was a slightly better than average player. Rollins is good but you have to actually must have been kicked in the head by a mule to even mention him with these other players. There is absolutely no chance he will ever even be considered for the hall of fame.Rollins has been done for at least 3 years. His highest average is 295 and his career average is 267. Are you 'effin kidding me.
There is no way trammel was a better player.
I grew up in the fifties so i remember Clemente well. The player left out of these players is Frank Robinson. A great player.
I think Ozzie is the greatest fielder but not as good all around player as Jeter.The other great fielder was Mark Belanger.
i do think yount was a very good player and Banks was great. It is slightly easier to hit hr's in Wrigley than yankee Stadium which is death for righthanders.
malthaussen
(17,175 posts)But it is only part of the package. Rollins hit only .243 this year and Jeter hit .256, but Rollins created more runs. I don't think he's HoF caliber either, unless you define HoF caliber as "better than the worst player currently in the HoF," in which case he's in. And he did win the MVP in 07, lol.
As for Ripken, he led or was second in range in 3 years and was in the top 4 of the league 7 times. Jeter, once. Given that Ripken's fielding percentage is also considerably better than Jeter's, it is easy to say who had the better glove. One stat I'm sure Cal wishes he didn't have is that he leads all players all-time in number of times he hit into the DP. But interestingly, Jeter is pretty bad on that stat too: Ripken hit into an average of 19 DPs/season, Jeter 17.
The question of Smith vs Jeter is interesting, because it raises the issue of whether the greatest fielder at his position is better than a player who hit much better. (Can you say Bill Mazeroski?) Nobody has quite figured out yet a truly satisfactory way of computing the importance of fielding compared to hitting. Currently by the Total WAR computation, Smith edges Jeter, 76.5-71.7. If you just consider hitting, though, it isn't even close: Jeter's oWAR is a very respectable 95.3, and Smith is half that at 47.8. But if being the best fielder is enough by itself to get into the HoF, then why didn't Belanger make it? He even has a better lifetime range than Ozzie. Of course, as a hitter he wasn't much better than Jim Palmer. I don't think there's much question that Ozzie is a worthy HoFer, but I doubt anyone would seriously suggest Belanger.
Trammell wasn't as good as Jeter, but it's closer than you might think. His defense brings his total WAR up to 70.4. As a hitter, he didn't shine in any of the glamor stats, but he did hit .300 or better in 7 of his 20 years, which is pretty darn good for a shortstop. I'm surprised he hasn't gotten more HoF love. He's better than most of the shortstops in there.
Most shortstops of HoF caliber have their ratings significantly boosted by their defense. Jeter is a HoFer strictly in terms of his offense. So any comparision with shortstops based solely on hitting (excepting guys like Wagner and Vaughan) is going to find Jeter near the top. But Jeter's defense actually subtracts from his total value. It's really kind of amazing that he was a SS at all. The fact that he played 20 years solely at that position suggests that there is still a lot we need to figure out about defensive value.
-- Mal
wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)How many plays do you really have over the course of a season where a step really makes a difference. On the other hand offense really makes a difference over the long haul. What is most important is do you make errors or not. jeter was not a defensive liability. If Ripken was so mobile then why was he hitting into so may DP's It was because he isn't as fleet as foot as you think he was. How many white really fast guys do you know?
My Dad played service baseball in the forties against the major leaguers. i trusted his knowledge more that anyone I ever knew. We came from a baseball family and I was in the clubhouse on Stan Musial night in the Polo Grounds in 1963. I have a ball signed to me from Stan the Man with it personalized to me.
The shortstop he said that was great and never mentioned was Marty Marion. I have 16 signed baseballs from the late 40's. One is worth $10,000.
malthaussen
(17,175 posts)Ten shortstops better than Jeter overall, counting offense and defense? Look at the JAWS ratings. In order, Wagner, Rodriguez, Ripken, Davis, Yount, Vaughan, Banks, Smith, Appling, and Dahlen. That's 10. They also have Trammell higher than Jeter, but I don't know how they come to that conclusion. Half of those played before either of us was born.
Range is a function of quickness, not speed. I don't make up Ripken's range figures or Jeter's. They're readily available. If you think range and defense aren't important, then obviously you are not going to value good range. And again, Ripken's fielding percantage is better than Jeter's, so your point about not making errors rather loses its strength.
Marty Marion was another classic case of all glove and not much hit. I'd guess Stan was talking about his defense.
-- Mal
Auggie
(31,133 posts)Thanks for posting El.
malthaussen
(17,175 posts)Evaluated on the basis of WAR, anyway. He actually beats out Yogi by a good bit.
-- Mal
Yavin4
(35,421 posts)Jorge Posada is his best friend, so of course he's going to say that Jeter is the best. That's what friends do.
KO is great, but he's also nutty as a fruitcake. Ask Jenk from The Young Turks.
El Supremo
(20,365 posts)Sure, Jeter wasn't the best. But why is he getting all this adoration? It has reached the level of Canonization.
Auggie
(31,133 posts)the Yankees, MLB, media, souvenir whores, and Jeter himself.
Olbermann -- what a hero. Count on him to shout out the emperor has no clothes.
El Supremo
(20,365 posts)Auggie
(31,133 posts)This is over-the-top
Yavin4
(35,421 posts)Joe Namath had a so-so career, but he's still beloved in NYC.
Yavin4
(35,421 posts)Admit it.
El Supremo
(20,365 posts)He practically calls Yankee Stadium his home.
wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)It invalidated his rant. Also he compared Jeter to positions who have been usually sluggers. shortstops until recently are not sluggers. his lifetime average is very good. .312 is the third highest average for a shortstop. That is how he should be compared.
this is much more accurate
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/derek-jeter-vs-hall-of-fame-shortstops-1.8899728
El Supremo
(20,365 posts)It favors long time players who were not replaced much.
fishwax
(29,148 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)then they missed one hell of a career.