Four ways Martin Luther King Jr. wanted to battle inequality

[azmom]

http://www.msnbc.com/all/mlks-fight-against-economic-inequality

Today, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is most often remembered as a crusader for racial equality, not economic justice. But those struggles were inextricably intertwined for the civil rights leader, whose 85th birthday is being honored this weekend. Even during his upbringing, as he wrote in 1958 [PDF], he knew “that the inseparable twin of racial injustice was economic injustice.”

[JustAnotherGen]

1. He had to get white America to admit that separate toilets were stupid first - and then . . .

Robert Walker




Why MLK went to Memphis



They were black men working hard, still on welfare and the union spit on them




And Dr. King was shot because he dared ask working class white men to give working class back men respect.

I would suggest to the white champion of economic justice that they not co-opt the movement and ideals - but ask - can you help us? We know how to get shit done.

See - our fathers, grandfathers etc etc weren't really Americans until 1965.  And 43 years after being welcomed into America - being given full citizenship - look what happened.

[azmom]

2. Yes, you are right.

You have every right to be angry. I'm a latina and we latinos are also angry at the white racists. I trust Bernie. Bernie is a democratic socialist and a real progressive.
I trust him on the social issues because of the positions he has taken in the past.
The Bernie campaigns needs millions of people to vote. He can't do it without the black vote or the latino vote. Or the white vote. In order to get us all under one movement, He needs to have a broad message to unite us.

[JustAnotherGen]

3. He won't have me - unless he wins the Primary

I'm O'Malley all the way until the end.

I trust him not on positions - but on what he did.

He set the mark to lower the infant mortality by 10% - they dropped it to 21% in MD.
MD had the highest median income when he left office.
They have a 10.10 minimum wage - its a good start.
Top five states for K-12 schools in the country.
He - he gave undocumented residents driver's licenses.
He said we should have been welcoming this children into our arms last summer.
He said he's sorry to Baltimore - he showed up in the midst of chaos because they were more important than kissing the asses of Europeans.

And I'm not angry - I'm energized. Just this morning in this group I posted what we are doing here in my community - what I'm doing.

I am sick and fuckung tired of positions.

Positions are bullshit.

Give me the receipts. What precisely has a candidate done if they have been playing politics for 23, 35, 40 years.

I know what O'Malley has done. And he's the only one who can top Obama's 291 accomplishments in office.

[azmom]

4. I don't know much about O'malley. I'll start

Researching him.

[JustAnotherGen]

5. Go to our group here

We are friendly - and welcoming. And we are all about "I did".

Come the debates all he has to say - I'm in total agreement with you - I did it in MD and I'd like to work with the legislature to roll it out across the country.

He has a strong environmental background - look at that!

[azmom]

6. But is he taking corporate money?

Cause that's a big issue. How can he be responsive to the people?
That's my issue with Hillary.

[JustAnotherGen]

7. Here's a top view

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/here-s-where-martin-o-malley-gets-his-campaign-money-190927070.html

And we will be giving to Generation Forward.

Bernie has $5 dollar donors.

I'd bet that hedge fund broker who gave O'Malley 14K of his $75 million target gave a lot more to Clinton - since Wall Street doesn't want O'Malley. Oh - she also has Harvey Weinstein.

I have Mr JAG wrapped around my finger - and he knows O'Malley will be good for the small business person. I just gotta match that hedge fund donation.

[JustAnotherGen]

8. Oh and he's going to have to

You put your line of work/employer on the donation page.

I work for a company with 140K employees.

[1StrongBlackMan]

10. How will the candidate NOT taking corporate money compete ...

i.e., get elected?

[azmom]

12. How much do you think is really needed. Not 2.5 billion?

[1StrongBlackMan]

18. I don't have a figure; but I know two things ...

the Koch brothers, have pledged to spent $900,000,000, and that is just two individuals; and, second, it would be difficult to meet, even, that number, $40 at a time. (Yes, I know ... If he makes a good showing in NH and Iowa, bigger dollars might start flowing his way; but that is basing everything on a "if".)

[azmom]

21. We Bernie supporters are anticipating a huge fight by the

Money interests. We are not naive. We know it's not going to be easy by any strech of the imagination. What we are counting on is social media. Specially Twitter. Twitter has been effectively used by other movements to communicate and organize the masses.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

155. O.K., but you're going to have to give a little and understand that Bernie may need to take PAC

money. And when he does, don't get angry at him. He needs to do this to WIN. He won't be able to compete if he can't raise the necessary funds.

We need to be realistic here.

It's a sad reality but it IS reality!!

[1StrongBlackMan]

167. I wouldn't be angry for taking PAC money ...

In fact, I would applaud it, as it would be a sign that he is able to adjust to the realities of circumstance.

[azmom]

13. Just please don't vote for Hilary

In Mrs. Clinton's zeal to make the case that experience (hers) is more important than inspirational leadership (Mr. Obama's), she made some peculiar comments about the relative importance of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and President Lyndon Johnson to the civil rights cause. She complimented Dr. King's soaring rhetoric, but said: "Dr. King's dream began to be realized when President Lyndon Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964. ... It took a president to get it done. "

[1StrongBlackMan]

19. I am undecided. And won't decide until March 21, 2016 (the day before the AZ primary date) ...

but what I am doing, is volunteering with the local Democratic Party. CAnd what I WILL do, is vote FOR whomever the Democratic nominee is, whomever that might be.

[Number23]

75. I missed this post from you before, but I have to say that I am extremely uncomfortable with someone

coming into this forum for the first time ever and requesting that the regular posters here not vote for Hillary or not vote for anyone. If you want to advocate for your candidate, that's another thing entirely.

I have absolutely no idea why you would feel that you are more informed on any of these issues than we are, or are in any position to "request" us to do anything.

[azmom]

80. I understand completely and I apologize.

If I have your permission, I would like to advocate on behalf of Bernie.

[1StrongBlackMan]

90. Understand, you don't need anyone's permission to do anything positive ...

in this forum ... Advocating for, from one's own perspective is a good thing, and will be met well ... as opposed to telling/requesting that the group members what is in our best interest; that, is not so good, and won't be met well.

[azmom]

92. Yes, I see the mistake I made.

I did go off on a rant about socialism and capitalism. I need to do more listening. You guys did make me see the light though. I do see now why Bernie needs to start talking about the social issues that we POC face, and not only the economic issue.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

157. Peculiar? No. Racist? YES!! The Clintons were absolutely despicable in 2008. I want my black people

to remember, too.

I also want white supporters to remember and never forget their behavior.

------------------------

Hillary Clinton's dog whistle politics referring to "hard working white people"...

Evidence: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/08/clinton-obama-not-winning_n_100763.html

and here: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Garin_Clinton_won_the_white_vote.html

Bill Clinton's racist statements about Jesse Jackson...

Evidence: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0108/7845.html

and here the audio/video:

Geraldine Ferarro's assertion that Obama's race was the reason why people supported him, even though Hillary enjoyed overwhelming support from black voters initially....

Evidence: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/13/us/politics/13ferraro.html?_r=0

and here on Faux News, nevertheless: Geraldine Ferarro's comments:

Hillary Clinton's alluding to the assassination of Bobby Kennedy during a time when Obama was receiving an unprecedented number of death threats...

Evidence: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/24/us/politics/24clinton.html

And this statement is precisely what turned the Kennedy family against Hillary Clinton for the nomination. Despicable!!!

They all went on Faux News to ridicule and play racial dog whistle politics, knowing that working class white Democrats weren't supporting Obama. For example, Ed Rendell praising Faux News for it's unbiased coverage: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/31/clinton-surrogate-ed-rend_n_94280.html

I have no reason to lie!

The Clintons were disgusting, as were their surrogates and many of their fans.

[marym625]

32. I really like O'Malley

If Bernie weren't running, that's who I would be backing. He's a good guy.

[lovemydog]

14. Thanks. I'm going to check out the O'Malley group.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

154. My former governor. He wasn't perfect. He made some mistakes, but I think he has a better chance...

...to win than Bernie.

[JustAnotherGen]

156. And LS

He admits his mistakes - and he says "I'm sorry".

gwlauren (I think I have her name) is 'stalwart' *I think* against him. It means a great deal to me to get the opinions and thoughts of people who have lived in Baltimore or the state of Maryland.

Thanks!

[shaayecanaan]

180. O'Malley?

The polling is pretty toxic for him amongst a certain demographic.

This from the PPP poll, 30/06/2015:-



and the polling for Sanders:-



One of the regulars here is fond of saying that DU is an echo chamber. He's right, you know.

[Number23]

9. TELL IT, girl. TELL IT

And Dr. King was shot because he dared ask working class white men to give working class back men respect.

I would suggest to the white champion of economic justice that they not co-opt the movement and ideals - but ask - can you help us? We know how to get shit done.

The DU narrative is that King was only killed because he started to talk about economic justice and march with sanitation workers. He had apparently "moved past" talking about civil rights -- though this was his life's work, had endured COUNTLESS death threats aimed at both himself and everyone he held even remotely dear, and went to jail numerous times for -- and was only deemed a "threat" by white people after he started talking about economic justice.

His decades old work on getting black people a seat at the goddamned table in American life was apparently SECONDARY to his focus on economics rights. And one thing you need to remind yourself about all of this -- most of the folks saying this not only think it's the truth but that it's somehow a COMPLIMENT on the man and his work.

[azmom]

11. That's interesting. I was taught in school that

MLK was focused on race. Later, maybe here, i don't remember, I read about the economic side.
But, you are right. It's the same thing with Lincoln. In school, I was taught that Lincoln wanted to free the slaves, and now the narrative is, the civil war i was about economics.

[JustAnotherGen]

16. I'm from Rochester NY originally

A document was found in the public library a couple of years ago where Lincoln laid out the North buying the slaves their freedom as a way to end the war. Scandalous!

The only thing I can think is it was in the hands of Frederick Douglas - perhaps to publish it in his paper there? Rochester in spite of its riot - which was economic based - has a long history with civil rights and civil liberty activism.

[freshwest]

141. Lincoln's idea was a sound one and Douglas had met him. They may have wanted to do this:

When slaves were emancipated by Act of the British Parliament in 1834, the British government paid compensation to slave owners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_British_Isles

I don't know if the depravity of the Confederacy would have allowed that. And Sherman's plan, which was really the plan of black leaders, also failed:

The Truth Behind '40 Acres and a Mule'

By: Henry Louis Gates Jr.
Posted: Jan. 7 2013

We've all heard the story of the "40 acres and a mule" promise to former slaves. It's a staple of black history lessons, and it's the name of Spike Lee's film company. The promise was the first systematic attempt to provide a form of reparations to newly freed slaves, and it was astonishingly radical for its time, proto-socialist in its implications. In fact, such a policy would be radical in any country today: the federal government's massive confiscation of private property - some 400,000 acres - formerly owned by Confederate land owners, and its methodical redistribution to former black slaves. What most of us haven't heard is that the idea really was generated by black leaders themselves.

It is difficult to stress adequately how revolutionary this idea was: As the historian Eric Foner puts it in his book, Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution, 1863-1877, "Here in coastal South Carolina and Georgia, the prospect beckoned of a transformation of Southern society more radical even than the end of slavery." Try to imagine how profoundly different the history of race relations in the United States would have been had this policy been implemented and enforced; had the former slaves actually had access to the ownership of land, of property; if they had had a chance to be self-sufficient economically, to build, accrue and pass on wealth. After all, one of the principal promises of America was the possibility of average people being able to own land, and all that such ownership entailed. As we know all too well, this promise was not to be realized for the overwhelming majority of the nation's former slaves, who numbered about 3.9 million...

We have been taught in school that the source of the policy of "40 acres and a mule" was Union General William T. Sherman's Special Field Order No. 15, issued on Jan. 16, 1865. (That account is half-right: Sherman prescribed the 40 acres in that Order, but not the mule. The mule would come later.) But what many accounts leave out is that this idea for massive land redistribution actually was the result of a discussion that Sherman and Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton held four days before Sherman issued the Order, with 20 leaders of the black community in Savannah, Ga., where Sherman was headquartered following his famous March to the Sea. The meeting was unprecedented in American history...

There are 3 Sections describing the land to be alloted, amounting to 400K acres, very good land, too. In a meeting of General Sherman, Senators and black ministers, it was decided:

Stanton, aware of the great historical significance of the meeting, presented Henry Ward Beecher (Harriet Beecher Stowe's famous brother) a verbatim transcript of the discussion, which Beecher read to his congregation at New York's Plymouth Church and which the New York Daily Tribune printed in full in its Feb. 13, 1865, edition. Stanton told Beecher that "for the first time in the history of this nation, the representatives of the government had gone to these poor debased people to ask them what they wanted for themselves." Stanton had suggested to Sherman that they gather "the leaders of the local Negro community" and ask them something no one else had apparently thought to ask: "What do you want for your own people" following the war? And what they wanted astonishes us even today.

http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2013/01/40_acres_and_a_mule_promise_to_slaves_the_real_story.html

They wanted Land. The perfect solution for self-sufficiency and freedom from bigots. But then Lincoln was assassinated and conveniently a sympathizer of the South, Andrew Johnso took over and repealed Order 15. The land which the freed slaves were living and working on and running their own government, was taken away. It all goes back to the assassination of Lincoln for political purposes.

Like those of the past century. I've always thought it should have been done and we would not have had to have live with what we do today. The purpose of Order 15 was to forever break the backs of the rebels. I approve.

Sorry, but I've gone:



But I coudn't leave it alone.

[Number23]

47. Of course MLK was focused on race. And race in the United States encompasses a great many

things, economics being one of them.

And yes, people's perception and understanding of history does change over the years. And one way that it does that is when people keep changing/altering someone's very clear message of human rights and dignity for all.

[JustAnotherGen]

15. I don't think many folks making this argument

Get WHAT those sanitation workers WERE.

That's why I placed those images there.

They weren't being treated well by a white establishment union.

They don't understand that two men died due to the worst working conditions that were not tolerated by the union in places where the union and workers were populated by white men.

They were black men being ignored and demeaned by the working class champions.

Had working class white folks been doing the right thing - and not deliberately leaving their colleagues out of the fruits of the labor movement - MLK never would have had to go to Memphis.


He wouldn't have been on that balcony.

[azmom]

20. I understand what you are saying,

and can understand why any black person would be weary in joining up with union people.

I'm Latina, and some hispanics like myself, don't like Caesar Chavez because he turned his back on undocumented workers in order to strenghthen his Union. The undocumented worker was expendable because Union came first, before any sense of justice. White people love Caesar Chavez, so we just go along with it.

I do know that If Bernie cannot get the black vote, he can't win. If white voters and black voters and hispanic voters can't come together and vote for Bernie, we will never be able to change the political status quo.

[JustAnotherGen]

23. Re Chavez - are you familiar with Ralph Abernathy?

He basically 'inherited' Dr. King's work. He was hand in hand with Chavez on wanting to block illegal immigrants from entering the country.

He knew it could be used to drive down what were already slave wages(and treatment) for blacks.

I would suggest (you see my sig line) - don't fall for the MLK lines that are pulled out by well meaning white liberals on occasion. Many are not familiar (in depth) with the movement -

They see what they want to see.
They hear what they want to hear.

Hence - the joke (inside) between me and ilovemydog that's in my sig line!

Now that said - do you know who is persona non grata with Wall Street right now? You might not know O'Malley - but they sure do . . .

He's dangerous. And they know it.

[azmom]

24. If it comes down to O'Malley and Hillary

You better believe I would vote for O'malley. Right now I'm supporting Bernie. I'll keep reading on O'malley.

[Number23]

49. Girl, I have said that same thing so many times my fingers REFUSE to type it again

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=4127

Like I noted almost a year ago, I bet black folks are over represented in the numbers of Tennessee sanitation workers in 2015, let alone 55 years ago.

MLK wasn't out marching for hedge fund managers and university presidents, people! This IS NOT HARD. And I don't understand why some people keep trying (not the OP who actually seems open to discussion unlike others) to act like it is.

They were black men being ignored and demeaned by the working class champions.

And it was not the first time nor would it be the last. One of the many reasons the "it's not race, it's class" folks haven't got a clue.

[azmom]

88. You are right. We need to tackle the social issues.

If Bernie only wants to tackle the economic issue, It's not going to work.
I hope he starts talking about it soon. He cannot not get the black vote.
He can't win without it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

95. My concern/fear is that Bernie (and some of his supporters) is/are unable, or unwilling ...

to understand what Black people's objection to the economic primacy theory/message ... and history of being on the right side of marches or organization memberships or, current speeches on police on Black violence/Black issues is going to help.

A DUer in commenting on President Obama's Eulogy yesterday, framed the problem issue perfectly:

Achieving economic justice would not change "the subtle impulse to call Johnny back for a job interview but not Jamal". What economic justice might do is give Johnny a living wage while Jamal is still waiting for a call back that never comes. Achieving social justice would give Jamal the same opportunity for the call back as Johnny has.

Until Bernie (and his supporters) understands this basic reality for Black folks, he, and his message, will be missing us.

Pass the word! That message seems to be accepted better from Bernie supporters than from this Undecided ... and Oh, yeah! You might not want to self-identify as a Latina, when passing it on.

[azmom]

99. Man, I'm going to be chased out of the Bernie

Group when all this is said and done.

Did you know that, Bill DeBlasio is endorsing Bernie. I think it's a good sign. Remember how all the racists cops went after him for calling the police out when they murdered eric Gardner.

I think Bill DeBlasio is a good guy. He faced down those racists cops and stood with the black community. Remember how they turned their backs on him. Not only the racists cops, but their whole Union.

Do police unions vote for republicans?

[1StrongBlackMan]

100. Yeah ...

I know DeBlasio is endorsing Bernie and believe both are good men and on the right side of the racism fight.

Speaking of DeBlasio ... take a moment to look at how he talks about economic and social justice as opposed to how Bernie does ... there is a difference, and that explains the Black support for the relatively unknown DeBlasio versus Bernie.

And yes, Police Union members vote heavily republican. My wife did a lot of work with the Tucson Police Dept. and their union ... thing is, they see themselves as special and police union members are largely anti-union for everyone else! Go figure!

[Number23]

112. Great post, 1SB

take a moment to look at how he talks about economic and social justice as opposed to how Bernie does ... there is a difference, and that explains the Black support for the relatively unknown DeBlasio versus Bernie.

Well said.

This thread felt like a disaster in the making but I think it's turned out pretty well. I give serious props to everyone that participated in it and to the OP for starting it.

So glad to be a part of this group. The genuinely last bastion of sanity, historical knowledge, political depth and maturity this web site has.

[azmom]

116. Stuff like this needs to be spoken about in the open.

You always here people say, we need to have a serious conversation about race. But we never do. If we are serious about fixing the problem of racism in this country. Let's start talking and listening to each other.

[Number23]

124. I could not agree with you more.

And speaking for myself, you are welcome in this forum.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

159. Racism in workers rights movement is legendary. Unions were incredibly racist!

[Number23]

163. You know that and I know that

but for some reason, there are a whooooooole lot of people that don't know it. But that never seems to stop them from endlessly pontificating on what MLK was about and stood for.

[heaven05]

59. WORD!

[azmom]

84. I didn't get it until now.

Now, I understand better why Bernie needs to champion the black social issues and not only the economic issues.

He has been weak in that regard. The only time he really said anything about race issues was his speech in Las Vegas.

[bettyellen]

160. Oh boy, you are so getting kicked out of the Sanders group now.

But I have to say I admire how much you have listened and learned here. This thread - and the apology one- have restored a bit of my faith in DU. Many are reacting in anger and closed off and it is really making people wonder WTF their actual game is? It's not advocating for Bernie, it's just being ugly and trying to shut people up.

[azmom]

161. Oh noes. I'll be forum less.

[bettyellen]

162. Unfortunately the founders there seem to be fixated on hating Hillary (and often, Obama) rather than

building up their own candidate. Many post crap about Obama and Hillary being "the same as" republicans.
As a woman, that has got to make you go Hmmmmm. It's past tone deaf- it's ignoring the most reliable Dem voters.
I don't believe they actually want to win at this point. Those that calculate they can without us, are counting on picking up many conservative voters, they have said as much. I don't like that at all.

[Number23]

111. I just have to high five this post again. Because it is simply that good.

Had working class white folks been doing the right thing - and not deliberately leaving their colleagues out of the fruits of the labor movement - MLK never would have had to go to Memphis. He wouldn't have been on that balcony.

Girl, PLEASE don't get me started. Good Lord. I am shaking my head and trying not to bawl right now.

[JustAnotherGen]

113. I'm kind Of done with the nonsense you know?

I'm also distressed by some of the idolization and blind faith I'm seeing.

Perhaps I'm a cynic - but I believe we have to save ourselves. I have very little tolerance for lambs.

[gollygee]

17. That's what I've always seen here too

People act like Dr. King evolved past racism. And that's when he started doing "real work" that meant something, and that's what got him killed. It's obnoxious, and Dr. King must be rolling over in his grave.

[1StrongBlackMan]

22. Don'tcha know ...

The Good Dr. Woke up one Mor Ning and saw the light?

[azmom]

25. Racism is alive and well in DU, no doubt about that.

[1StrongBlackMan]

26. Yes it is; but that is not what I'm talking about ...

I do not see the (mis)appropriation of the Good Dr.'s works and message, as racism ... rather, it is (intentional, or perhaps, unintentional) self-interested, "WhatAboutMeism."

[azmom]

27. Can you explain the concept of "whataboutmeism"?

[1StrongBlackMan]

28. That would be taking a message about or directed to a specific group ...

and twisting it to include one's self. Example: Any thread about male on female domestic violence, will soon find some male who will tell about the horrors of female on male domestic abuse = whataboutmeism; or, any thread about the profiling of PoC will soon be met with a story about a non-PoC that was followed around in a story (though neglecting to mention their multiple piercings, tattoos and the "I shoplift for a living" tee shirt = whataboutmeism; or, the ultimate whataboutmeism ... on a thread discussing "Black Lives Matter", someone is sure to chime in with "All Lives Matter" = whataboutmeism.

[azmom]

29. Ahhhh yes. So in relation to MlK

The non-POC include themselves by stressing that it's about the economic message.

[1StrongBlackMan]

31. Yes ...

Whether that is intentional, is up in the air.

[azmom]

33. I understand now. Did you read my post

About the fight for $15 and and blacks lives matter movements working together?





http://www.socialistalternative.org/2014/12/19/uniting-fight-15-ferguson-fury/

[1StrongBlackMan]

34. Yes ...

That is an important intersection.

[azmom]

35. There has to be a way to unite.

From the article......solidarity against racism is crucial if we are to build a broad, multi-racial mass movement capable of overcoming corporate domination of our economy.

[JustAnotherGen]

30. He never did

The men he was fighting for? The laborers he died for?

They were black garbage men.

They act like it was a bunch of Leonardo Dicaprio and Troy Donahue look alikes running around out there. They weren't.

[1StrongBlackMan]

36. But that ... who the trash collectors were ...

didn't make it into the union newsletter, nor was it specified in the textbooks, because it wasn't important to the WhatAboutMe!

[azmom]

37. I never knew that. I'm sure many don't. Like

You said they rewrite history.

[azmom]

38. I'm getting a better picture now. Thank you

For being patient of my ignorance. You have inspired me to read further about MLK

[1StrongBlackMan]

41. This is one of the purposes of the AA Group ...

to inform those that are willing to be informed.

And we try, really hard to be patient! Though, "it is hard Damned work" to be so, sometimes. (phrase reference: the movie White Men Can't Jump)

[azmom]

44. Well, I thank you again for

Your patience and, thanks to the entire AA Group for imparting your knowledge with fellow DU's.
We do appreciate it.

[JustAnotherGen]

40. You are correct!

And the thing is - I believe in Unions. I do - good, bad, indifferent back in the day - I know there are some benes I get today because of unions. But I'm not keeping quiet anymore.

He died because he was helping black union workers getting the shaft from both the city AND the union!

[1StrongBlackMan]

42. Truth! ...

And this is why so much of the "economic justice is so tied to social justice that they are one in the same" message misses Black folks ... we know that is not true.

[azmom]

69. Latinos too. Look what's happening In Arizona.

A bunch of racist white folks scared of Illegals.

It doesn't matter that I own a nice home and own a nice car. All they see is my skin color.
They want me to prove, I am an American Citizen. Fuck them. Fuck racism.

[1StrongBlackMan]

73. What part of Arizona are you in?

[azmom]

82. I live in Queen Creek. Maricopa county. Home of Joe Arpaio.

[1StrongBlackMan]

83. Ahhh ...

I know the area well ... I travel through it often on my way to Phoenix and Flagstaff.

[azmom]

85. It's still a bit rural and racist as hell.

I would like to leave the state, but I have chronic back problems and the dry heat really helps.

[1StrongBlackMan]

86. I was going to say ...

"Ahhh ... the Home of Country Thunder!" ... but I didn't want to offend anyone.

[azmom]

87. It is that. My daughter is 20 and she can't wait

To get out of arizona.

[freshwest]

153. Maybe it's a function of age. Everyone I knew realized those were black sanitation workers, everyone

It was all about color. All of it.

I don't know how anyone misses this - guess it's the advantage of being alive and aware then. It clarifies the whitewashing now.

No group has pushed for civil rights and equality more than AAs, because equality was survival. Slavery of the sort they endured and which has not been reimbursed - is more to confront than 'immigrants took my job,' low wages, no bennies, long hours and all of tha.

Also affords one the luxury of quoting philosophers in societies built upon slave labor, as if they were the last word. Marx and his friends had the time to meet up and discuss heady matters while they were being financially supported. Marx himself had a wife who was a cleaning woman and supported him. He didn't bother to talk about her needs. How many others refuse to give credit to those who serve them in reality?

Until someone grasps that lack of racial equality has been a deadly thing in this country, they just don't get it. They haven't the need ot address this maddening social construct that confines those who are not white males.

Thus can remain cocooned and clueless and scamper through life with less stress. No wonder they play willfully ignorant. They are allowed to be children.

[Number23]

50. The HELL you say!

They act like it was a bunch of Leonardo Dicaprio and Troy Donahue look alikes running around out there. They weren't.

You mean THIS wasn't the face of 1960s Tennessee sanitation workers??!?!

[JustAnotherGen]

62. hell to the no!!!!! n/t

[heaven05]

39. thank you

Last edited Fri Jun 26, 2015, 08:33 PM - Edit history (1)

THIS is what I've been saying, over and over again. The supporters just don't want to hear anything about civil rights, MLK and how SCOTUS recently has trampled Civil Rights into the dust. They will not acknowledge these facts you are presenting nor that I have presented and will continue to present about racial justice being a key element in any upcoming campaign by ANY Democratic candidate. They just don't want to say it's important, and I do wonder why. That socialist meme of economic justice is important but as I have been telling that group, it won't stop racism. Economic socialism denies the importance of race as a factor in solving the problems of america. So while economic justice is one element when it interferes with democratic, progressive development of policies that can bring about RACIAL justice and social equality, I have to keep looking for the right candidate. I'll only vote for HRC if I'm forced too. Looks like Bernie is falling into that category, but it's still early enough for him to get his act together.

Since all this socialist talk came out of the Russian revolution, I keep wondering if that could possibly be why racial justice is never discussed or dealt with in any urgent way. The equality gained by economic justice does not bring racial social justice or equality. Period. Russia was predominately white, the socialist movement there and in this country has always been predominately white so maybe the importance of race escapes socialists because of the racial makeup and the fact that racial demographic doesn't have to deal with racism? Could that be one reason?

[Spazito]

43. In President Obama's powerful, moving eulogy today he said the following...

"Americans should want to fight poverty with as much effort as they fight hate, and realize that hate isn’t always obvious, he said, “so that we’re guarding against not just racial slurs, but we’re guarding against the subtle impulse to call Johnny back for a job interview but not Jamal.”"

Achieving economic justice would not change "the subtle impulse to call Johnny back for a job interview but not Jamal". What economic justice might do is give Johnny a living wage while Jamal is still waiting for a call back that never comes. Achieving social justice would give Jamal the same opportunity for the call back as Johnny has.

This reality seems to escape those who mistakenly believe economic justice will bring social justice. No, it won't, imo.

[1StrongBlackMan]

46. Yeah, this here ...

Achieving economic justice would not change "the subtle impulse to call Johnny back for a job interview but not Jamal". What economic justice might do is give Johnny a living wage while Jamal is still waiting for a call back that never comes. Achieving social justice would give Jamal the same opportunity for the call back as Johnny has.

And this is why this economic primacy message misses Black folks! ETA: Our reality interferes with that philosophy.

[Spazito]

53. I find it difficult not to get frustrated at the lack of understanding...

of what, I think, is a simple truth, one we know to be true.

[1StrongBlackMan]

56. I suspect for most it's not ...

"A lack of understanding ", it's a "so what! I'll get mine."

[Spazito]

58. Yes, good point, I have seen that attitude far too often when discussing this to...

give the benefit of the doubt I once might have done.

[azmom]

45. Socialism, as I understand it, opposes capitalism.

It believed that racism is caused by the capitalist. The white man wants to make money off of minority labor. sound familiar.
They believe that all races have to come together to oppose the capitalist system.
They believe in free healthcare for all, free education for all, and on taking care of the citizens. They believe we can have all that because they believe the rich should pay for a lot of that.
Bernie says the only reason america does not tax the rich is because politicians are accepting bribes. That's why he doesn't want to take any money from banks, Wall Street or corporation. He is not for sale. He wants socialism not capitalist

[azmom]

48. I'm sure that there is someone here

Who can explain what democratic socialism is. It's not like Russian socialism. Because we can see that is not working well. It's what hey have in the Scandinavia countries. The fact that they are all white and therefore do not split the vote, has a lot to do with it.

The capitalists, bankers, Wall Street, and CEO's hate socialism. That's why they buy our politicians. So they can pass laws that are beneficial to them and not us working folk.

[azmom]

51. Start here:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/socialism

[azmom]

55. Bernie also wants to get money for us by

Cutting the military budget. America has plenty of money. Bernie has a plan to do all of this. He says that when the republicans oppose him, he is going to do what Obama did not do and call for all of us to do a sit in in Washington until they cave,

Bernie says that once he gets elected, politicians will get the message and stop taking bribes.

[JustAnotherGen]

77. Is that what he did when he was a mayor?

Why didn't he ask the socialists to do this as a Senator during the ACA fight?

Can you provide a list of his accomplishments from 1981 through today? By that I mean -

Idea
Bill
Legislation
Implementation

Being actively involved in the grass roots change of a borough of 4500 in a state with a lot of shake downs, scams, and graft (NJ) - even at this level you have those 4 parts of "We did".

I'm not sure how old you are or if you are familiar with Stevie Wonder's more obscure music -

But this election cycle - for me?

You haven't done nothing!




Play the Stevie Wonder Quiz
"You Haven't Done Nothing"

We are amazed but not amused
By all the things you say that you'll do
Though much concerned but not involved
With decisions that are made by you

But we are sick and tired of hearing your song
Telling how you are gonna change right from wrong
'Cause if you really want to hear our views
"You haven't done nothing"!

It's not too cool to be ridiculed
But you brought this upon yourself
The world is tired of pacifiers
We want the truth and nothing else

And we are sick and tired of hearing your song
Telling how you are gonna change right from wrong
'Cause if you really want to hear our views
"You haven't done nothing"!

******************

Tell me to date - specifically - what precisely (give ten things) Bernie has done to change right from wrong.

Marching, chanting, failed bills and legislation are not valid. Did he make same sex marriage the law of the land when he was the Governor of Vermont? < ---- That's kind of a trick question.

I know my selected candidate did that as Governor of MD.


Yeah America! Oh say can you see O'Malley doing things?

[NOLALady]

102. I'd like to add

"Big Brother"....

Your name is big brother
You say that you're watching me on the tele,
Seeing me go nowhere,
Your name is big brother,
You say that you're tired of me protesting,
Children dying everyday,
My name is nobody
But I can't wait to see your face inside my door

Your name is big brother
You say that you got me all in your notebook,
Writing it down everyday,
Your name is I'll see ya,
I'll change if you vote me in as the pres,
The President of your soul
I live in the ghetto,
You just come to visit me 'round election time

I live in the ghetto,
Someday I will move on my feet to the other side,
My name is secluded,
we live in a house the size of a matchbox,
Roaches live with us wall to wall,

You've killed all our leaders,
I don't even have to do nothin' to you
You'll cause your own country to fall

[azmom]

103. That is very powerful. Who wrote that?

[NOLALady]

105. Another Wonder by Stevie...

[azmom]

106. Nothing but truth. We have some big fucking problems

In this country. Can I share this in the Bernie group?

[NOLALady]

107. You can share this

anyplace that you choose.

[azmom]

108. Thank you.

[heaven05]

54. what about racism.

I know what Bernie is and I understand the politics of socialism as applied to the capitalist system. And socialist want those policies you mentioned enacted for the social/economic welfare of all citizens. Fine and dandy. But if free education is still denied the POC because of entrenched racist values that will keep POC out of those classes-colleges because of some state legislation, that legally denies POC their right to that education, like as happened in MICHIGAN a few years back, free college won't mean a damn thing. If those free hospitals are not in the black community, not going to help the black family who has not the money for a cab and has to wait for the bus for a 30 mile round trip. Won't do a damn bit of good. "Take care of citizens". Okay I'm all for that. Taxing the rich at a fair rate, fine. Jobs creation, fine. All that given the peculiar state of racism in america will not make johnnie reb pull down his flag, will not stop johnny cop from executing and providing summary punishment and death to POC. It will not stop racists from committing church murders or burnings. What policy(s) does Bernie want to put in place to stop that? Why are you socialists so reticent in admitting that this area of american life is intrinsic to the long term growth or demise of this country, progressively and liberally?

I have been to Bernie meetings and questions such as I have posed here, causes a lot of consternation when I ask what are we going to do to get policies in place to guarantee racial justice. Always, economics and that is just plain bullshit. There is no we given the dancing around those questions cause. I am talking to people who eyes are opening in regard to the lack of importance the Bernie camp puts on racial justice as one important component of any progressive/liberal campaign in motion now.

[azmom]

61. He wants to tackle that too.

But think about it, what is the thing that unites, blacks, Latinos, and whites


He needs all these votes, he has to campaign on an economic message. If he starts talking "black lives matter". The white Union guy won't vote for him.
Same thing with the brown vote, say amnesty and it loses the white Union guy.

It comes down to, do you trust this old white guy to champion "black lives matter just like he will the minimum wage issue. For that answer look at his record. Not what he says. Look at his voting record on AA issues.

[heaven05]

64. yeah fine

same old song and dance. I know his record and it's gotten to the point where 1963 doesn't mean a thing. June 17th, Mother Emanuel Church, Charleston, S.C means everything to me. Policies is what counts, if black lives don't matter to the white unions guy, I just hope he's not handing out union jobs. But you're right Bernie doesn't have to worry about racism as well as the hundreds of thousands of socialists democrats following him. I really don't know about the union guy, he's not in my corner either if he won't want to acknowledge racism as a serious problem in this society. That means when it comes to helping a POC get equal job equality, that could be problematic for the union guy, in my book. If Bernie mentions amnesty, the hundreds of thousands of Latinos that usually vote RW, will be in his corner, so in the end POC and the racial problems will be marginalized again and won''t matter to Bernie, because he'll have the white and Latino vote. The complete failure of socialist democrats and their supporters to understand just how important a problem continuous murderous racism is to me and others makes "whataboutmeism" ring true, more and more. It won't matter to Bernie whether he gets my vote or not, from what I am beginning to glean from Bernie meetings and threads like this.

Damn the racist white voter whether he will or will not vote for Bernie if he speaks out on the issue(s) surrounding black lives and it's not just about equal pay or job and social equality. Bernie better step up to the plate soon or just go ahead and say black votes don't matter, same difference. on edit: he could say something as simple as he would make sure case after case after case concerning Civil Rights and POC, those rights that have been gutted and scuttled by SCOTUS and the RW hate machine, will be back before SCOTUS time and time again. That would help me to have something to make me believe he gives a real damn about CIVIL RIGHTS and racial equality. NOT SOCIAL or ECONOMIC rights and equality. No one talks of the retrograde decisions by the so called justices of the SCOTUS.

[azmom]

65. Bernie knows he can lose the black vote over this strategy.

Bernie will have to address it at some point. Until then, stick to O'malley. That will force him to say something.

Clinton is winning the hispanic vote, the only way to bring us in is immigration reform. He already promised us, latinos that. I guess the Union white people are cool with that. The problem is hispanics prefer Clinton. They never heard of the guy, and all spanish media talks about is Clinton and Donald trump.

Right now, he only has the white vote.

[heaven05]

66. I'm not sticking with anyone

no real "champion" yet, and given the nature of american politics and race, probably won't have one. Everyone too afraid of losing this vote, that vote, because of that damn race problem and those black people. I'll probably just end up in central america somewhere sticking my middle finger up whenever someone speaks of this hypocrisy called america and it democracy.

[azmom]

81. It is frustrating.

[JustAnotherGen]

79. JAG being a jackass here!

We should start by embracing citizen-funded elections, to reduce the outsized influence of special interests and the very wealthy in our politics. Small donors should have their contributions matched by six-to-one or more, and be rewarded through a refundable tax credit that encourages more people to give and participate. And we should make it easier, not harder, to vote – by modernizing registration, restoring the Voting Rights Act, and tearing down barriers like ID requirements that make it difficult for people to exercise their most fundamental right.

Someone isn't afraid to ask for our vote - so we can continue to vote.

[azmom]

94. I think all three have the same position on that.

[JustAnotherGen]

98. Then why isn't it on his web site?

If you don't have it in writing - you don't got nuttin'!

[heaven05]

101. truth

[DemocratSinceBirth]

122. The heterosexual white working class male...

The heterosexual white working class male is unlikely to vote Democratic because that would mean he is simpatico with women, glbtq people, African Americans, Latinos, Asians, and Jews and despite barely having a pot to piss in he thinks he's better than those people.

If you read about the great populist movements of the nineteenth century they all feel apart because to too many poor and working class whites, race trumped class...



Barack Obama has proven twice we can win elections without them.

[azmom]

125. The heterosexual white working white male

Is slowly being relegated to the Republican Party.

The non-racist, believe in equality, white working males are Progressive Democrats -
This would describe Bernie. And there are others out there. For us, minorities it does not feel like it, but there are.

What Bernie is trying to do is get all working class people under one umbrella. Being working class is where we all intersect.

The question is, if Bernie wins, will he only address The needs of heterosexual, white working men, and leave us out. Can we trust this old, white man?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

126. Barack Obama has won twice without the white working class male-Joe the Dumber Plumber.

He has given us the map, the blueprint, the formula... Why would we discard a proven map, blueprint or formula in favor of a unproven one?


Again, to the working class white male the only thing he has going for him is his race and his gender and because of that he doesn't want to be part of a coalition with African Americans, Latinos, Asians, glbtq persons, women, and Jews because he consciously or subconsciously thinks he better than them because he's white and male. It's all he has left,

[1StrongBlackMan]

145. Good Point ...

And, perhaps:

the working class white male the only thing he has going for him is his race and his gender and because of that he doesn't want to be part of a coalition with African Americans, Latinos, Asians, glbtq persons, women, and Jews because he consciously or subconsciously thinks he better than them because he's white and male.

It's worse ... Perhaps, he is stubbornly fighting a/the realization that his fortunes are DEPENDENT upon that coalition. That HAS to be a real downer!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

146. I/we should be careful...

It's not all working class white males.. But it's true for those working class white males who vote GOP in spite of their economic interests.Going to college doesn't necessarily make you enlightened nor does not attending college make you unenlightened...


Anyhow...

Team Obama has given us a map and directions... Most folks who think they have the route all figured out and ignore maps and directions end up lost.

[1StrongBlackMan]

148. True ...

It's not all working class white males..

[azmom]

127. There is only one Barack Obama

Neither Hillary, Bernie or O'Malley come close to his greatness.

No one else will be able to replicate what he did. It's not going to happen.

[JustAnotherGen]

78. Can I speak to these things - a few?

Our country was built on the belief that no matter who you are or where you were born, your hard work should pay off. But for too many of our children, that promise is out of reach from the very start. We must close the gap by making access to safe and affordable childcare and pre-K universal, and college debt-free for all. We should also modernize high school, empowering every student to graduate with a year of college credit, an apprenticeship, or a certificate or credential for a high-pay, high-skill job.

A year of college credit - this was close to how I graduated with a ton of AP at a parochial prep school. Every college bound high school graduate should have this opportunity whether it's at the Aquinas Institute or Wheatland-Chili, or Wilson Magnet. Our parents pulled us out of WC - I went to AQ - my brother Wilson. If your school district is failing - and you don't have the time or money to haul your kids around, pay tuition - you're screwed. That's not fair.

An apprenticeship opens the door to asking money - real money - fresh out of high school.

A certificate or credential - ditto job ready.

By 2018 with the right candidate - we have young people ready to attack our crumbling infrastructure.

https://martinomalley.com/vision/

ETA - I can't find this on Sanders site. I can't find anything that relates to what we are trying to accomplish in our borough there. My two Town Council Candidates - we had a cook out for last summer. Who could donate could - but we had other new residents (we had only lived here 7 months when we had it) who were thankful for the opportunity to meet council candidates. We raised about 3200 - but spent 2K out of our pockets hosting it. The return for the investment in a community of 4500 is "big money". And if O'Malley comes to NJ - I would do the same for him. The visual of standing on the front door step of The Forans of NJ old homestead (look up Arthur, Walter aka Moose) - when Reagan took that picture in 1979 . . . It would be a big bird flip to the Republicans.

[azmom]

89. I think all three candidates are talking about the importance

Of education and how expensive it is now. They all have some kind of plan to make college more affordable. I know Bernie is talking about expanding on what Obama has already proposed, two years free college to 4 years free college.

[JustAnotherGen]

96. Martin O'Malley has told me specifically what he wants to do

You guys keep focusing on college.

Black kids in Mississippi received a sub par education and they are NOT prepared for college in September 2017.

They are not.

You guys need to stop pretending that all things have been equal! Jesus fucking Christ!

All three don't -actually four - with a Webb announcement coming - don't have jack shit.

One. O'Malley. Admitting we failed poor kids in Urban and rural areas and how we can give them a shot at making a good living.

The college plan only? Those college kids can't get to work anytime soon.

You do realize your candidate has three points on his website and that's it?

You - have a job. You need to harass him into being specific.

Call me a cynic - I'm not falling for his call for idolatry.

[Number23]

52. Someone in this forum posted a great post that says that for many white Americans

economics is quite simply, the only issue they have to deal with. It's here http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=16206

They don't have to deal with economics AND racism like poc do. They don't have to deal with economics AND gender or sexual orientation discrimination. And even within movements that are created to tackle those issues, mainstream (white) perception is the norm. This is why every sub-group movement in this country (gay rights, women's rights, disability rights etc.) has had minority subgroups within the subgroups.

So economics is their most pressing concern. They view everything through that narrow view. Which is why when other people try to even talk about the other issues we face ON TOP of economics or, within the subgroups, the issues they face ON TOP of whatever the communal discrimination faced is, they are viewed as "manufactured outrage" or "distractions."

And we need to remember this every single time someone churns out the idiotic "race was created by the 1% to divide this country." That's never been close to how it works.

[heaven05]

57. Interesting and rings true

given the fact that racism has never been taken seriously by the majority of white people in this country. If it had it would be, at the most, a marginal problem. Which it isn't, amerika 2015. I'm noticing people are ON IT! I love it. on edit: I like the "whataboutmeism" mentioned in this thread..

[azmom]

60. No, you have it all wrong. Bernie is a socialist.

Read my other messages and start looking into their whole philosophy. Socialists want equality in every sense of the word.

I believe that Bernie will prioritize the needs of us latinos and AA's. He just can't say it in his speeches cause that would alienate the racist Union man, cause he needs them too to win. He needs whites, blacks, latino and women. He needs a mass Turn out from us like we did for Obama.

The 1 percent (mostly white men) don't want Bernie to win. Bernie has finally exposed how they are in charge of our government, and that many politicians on both parties, republican and democrats have been taking bribes. They call it campaign financing.

They are trying desperately to not have people know about Bernie and his socialist ideas.

[Spazito]

63. Ummm...

I believe that Bernie will prioritize the needs of us latinos and AA's. He just can't say it in his speeches cause that would alienate the racist Union man, cause he needs them too to win.

There is so much wrong with this, it is truly jaw-dropping.

How is this different than be happy with the back of the bus, "racist Union man" take priority.

[azmom]

67. I see what you are saying.

But, that's the strategy he is using right now.
Stay with o'malley so he is forced to address the issue. He will have to. He needs the black vote.

[Spazito]

68. With all due respect, it is a very bad strategy n/t

[azmom]

70. Read this, it was in the Bernie Group

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/06/bernie-sanders-plan-to-beat-hillary-clinton

[Spazito]

71. Forgive me but I see nothing in the article that is relevent to our discussion...

if I am missing it, I would appreciate your helping me by pointing out where the article addresses the issues faced by the black community.

[azmom]

72. You are right. I misread something.

Like I said, keep the pressure on. He will have to adress it.

[greatauntoftriplets]

109. Amen!

It reeks of "back of the bus" or even "under the bus".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

123. Barack Obama has given us a formula to win without the working class white male..

Why would we abandon it, pray tell?

It's also a vanishing demographic that grows smaller with every election...

The prudent thing, imho, is to use the formula of the man who won two elections with a heterogeneous general electorate than the formula of a man who has only won with a small homogeneous one.


I am comfortable going into 2016 with the Obama Coalition of The Ascendant; African Americans, Latinos, Asians, glbtq people, millennials, women, and professional class white males.


If the working class white males want to go down with the Titanic (GOP) that's on them.

[azmom]

128. Barack " the man" is what held

Everything together. He is special.

Hillary, o'malley , nor Bernie Can get that demographics.

We need the white, heterosexual, male vote of the Democratic Party. Are some of them bigots and racists. Yes there are. I'm not sure why they vote democratic.

Did you know that police unions vote republican. They are Union, but they are so fucking racists, they cannot even vote with their democratic brothers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

129. The data suggests elsewise

Fully 95% of the Democratic primary voters who backed Mr. Obama in that 2008 nominating contest said they planned to support Mrs. Clinton, the former secretary of state, in 2016, according to an analysis of the new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll by Hart Research Associates, the Democratic polling firm that conducts the survey with Republicans at Public Opinion Strategies.

Mrs. Clinton, the front-runner for the Democratic nomination, draws much of her early strength from the same voters who elevated Mr. Obama to the White House in 2008 and kept him there in 2012. Some 78% of 2012 Obama voters view Mrs. Clinton favorably. Her support is even higher among African-Americans and core Democratic voters.[/i


http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/06/26/obama-supporters-plan-to-back-clinton-wsjnbc-news-poll-analysis/


Here's another important dynamic to understand: Hillary Clinton outperforms a generic Democratic presidential candidate. While she leads Bush/Rubio/Walker between 8-14 points, a generic Democratic presidential candidate barely beats a GOP generic candidate, 39%-36%. And the difference comes from the key Democratic-leaning demographic groups. A generic Democrat has a 16-point lead among those 18-34 (46%-30%), but Hillary's average lead over Jeb and Rubio here is 29 points (58%-29%). A generic Democrat has a 62-point lead among African Americans (69%-7%), but Hillary's lead against Bush/Rubio here is 87 points (91%-4%). And a generic Democratic candidate holds a 9-point lead among Latinos (40%-31%), but Hillary's average here against Jeb/Rubio is 42 points (65%-23%).


http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/first-read-most-important-number-nbc-wsj-poll-n380181

[azmom]

130. I voted for Obama and was looking

Forward to a Hillary/castro ticket. A woman and a hispanic. This Latina was in heaven.

In terms of polls, it is to early to tell. Sanders is new to most voters. His economic message is very attractive to minorities. White people think that they are suffering economically but they have no clue what our minoritiy communities are going through.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

131. All I will say, amiga, is if I was building a coalition...

All I will say, amiga, is if I was building a coalition I would go to every group in that coalition and tell them that they matter and by working together we can win the election and gain the power necessary to address their needs.

[azmom]

132. I would too. That's a great message

But I am not a biggot or a racist.

Biggots and racists would hate that message. And, I think we already discussed why I think they need to be part of our coalition.

Bernie has to win the early states in order to get more endorsements, and move on to other states. Those early states are Lilly white.



Obama's coalition will not work without Obama. The guy is a rock star.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

133. If you remember, it was Hillary who was the rock star among Latinos in 2008.

Hispanics voted for Sen. Hillary Clinton over Sen. Barack Obama by a margin of nearly two-to-one in the race for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, according to an analysis by the Pew Hispanic Center of exit polls taken throughout the primary season. The Center’s analysis also finds a sharp increase in Latino electoral participation in 2008, with their share of the Democratic primary vote rising in 16 of the 19 states for which exit polling makes it possible to compare 2008 and 2004 turnout shares.

Latino voters were especially important to Clinton in the mega-states California and Texas, where their share of the primary vote rose dramatically between 2004 and 2008. In California, Latino voters comprised 30% of the turnout (up from 16% in 2004) and in Texas, Latino voters comprised 32% of the turnout (up from 24% in 2004). Clinton would have lost both states were it not for the strong support she received from Latinos.






Barack Obama received 71% of the Latino vote in 2012:

http://www.ropercenter.uconn.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2012/

Hillary can reach those numbers.


Chasing white working class male voters is a quixotic mission... They have shown no inclination they want to be part of a coalition that includes many African Americans, Latinos, Asians, glbtq persons, women, and college educated whites.

And in any case the white male who hasn't attended college is a dying demographic that is going the way of the dinosaur.

[azmom]

134. Nothing has been the same since the economy crashed.

POC communities have been dessimated.

I am not saying, that we should not care about social issues or prioritize the economic over the social issues. I happen to think we can have both with Bernie.

Bernie is a real lefty on both of these issues. It's in his blood. Do I wish it was in his campaign, of course, I do.

Look at his voting record on all the progressive issues, economic and social. He has never waivered. Never sold out. The guy is worth like 300k. He has not used his position to rake in the bucks, like many do. He has always voted his conscious.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

135. Many working class whites believe that...

Many working class white males believe that their woes can be attributed to Latinos, legal and undocumented, taking their jobs, and sucking their taxes in welfare dollars when they don't or can't work.

If throwing them under the bus is the cost for their support is it worth it?

Many working class white males believe that African Americans are slothful and on welfare and those that have jobs probably benefitted from affirmative action.


If throwing them under the bus is the cost for their support is worth it?


Many working class white males believe there is something intrinsically wrong with glbtq people.


If throwing them under the bus is the cost for their support is it worth it?


To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin Barack Obama has gifted us "a winning coalition if we can keep it."

[azmom]

136. Real change has been painfully slow. If we can rebuild the coalition, and

Hillary wins, we will get more of the same thing. Sloooooooow progress. republicans will block everything, just like they did Obama.

Bernie's plan is to fuck with the whole political process. Bernie is talking about mass demonstrations in Washington to make things happen. An Occupy movement but with minorities included. Or a civil rights march with whites included. That is how real progress is made.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

137. He has to win the election first...

Bush* received 40% of the Latino vote in 00 and 44% of the Latino vote in 04. The Dems need to hit at least 65% to win. If Latinos couldn't connect to Gore and Kerry against Bush ll in sufficient numbers how they will they connect to Bernie in sufficient numbers if he is running against Bush lll or Rubio?

BTW, the numbers among Asians were very similar...Gore and Kerry did well but not well enough..


We can lose everything in this election; ACA, expanded Medicaid, amnesty...

Too risky...

I will vote as if my vote for the loser will result in my demise and the people I love demise and vote accordingly.

[azmom]

138. It's fucking risky.

It's scary as shit. We win big or we lose big.

Many in the Bernie camp think is going to be a piece of cake. It's not. It's going to take a lot of work and grassroots organizing.

[azmom]

139. And this article is on Bernies BetonBernie site

http://m.thenation.com/blog/175888-timid-supplication-justice-will-not-solve-problem

[bettyellen]

164. and you can repeat all those points and make them about poor single moms- or competing with women

in the workplace. It's the same assholes who resent that women need birth control and or pre natal healthcare.
They really want to be the only breadwinners so they can continue to look down on all of us.
I was pretty bummed when Bernie was in Wisconsin and said nothing about the rights women are losing there.
I don't want to here this states rights / the president can do nothing crap. He can't do a lot of things because of congress- and his supporters are fine with THAT, as long as he is talking about it.

I know he's got a great Naral rating but the part where he is dismissive of "identity" politics both scares me and makes me think he will not have our backs. Women's reproductive rights need to be a big priority.

[BainsBane]

152. No we don't

Their votes are not more equal. They are not the majority demographically. We don't need them to win a federal election. For all the complaining about the Democratic party being too much like the GOP, why are you all now trying to convince us that Republican voters are more important than the constituencies who have long voted for Democrats? Fuck the racists. Why should the rest of us forsake our interests so a self-entitled minority feels comfortable? The entire suggestion is offensive. If that truly is what Sanders is after, that is disconcerting. That strikes me as a very good reason NOT to support him.

[Number23]

74. You are the only person in this thread talking about Bernie Sanders.

And the fact that you seem entirely comfortable with his putting minority issues on the back burner in order to not offend "white union workers" is pretty damn telling if you ask me.

[azmom]

93. I am trying to advocate for Bernie. I'm just

Not doing it well. I see now, that The Bernie has to lead with the social issues and not the economic issue if he hopes to get the black vote.

[JI7]

76. why are you talking about Bernie Sanders in reply to that post ? do you think it's ok to be racist

if one isn't in the 1 percent ?

[azmom]

97. No. I don't believe anyone should be racist.

I believe in equality, in every sense of the word. I'm sorry if it came accross that way.

[JI7]

110. and yet you are worried about offending racist whites

[Starry Messenger]

114. I hate to butt in on a subthread.

Your friendly neighborhood union organizer here. Also a socialist. I have to echo that I really hope this is not Bernie's strategy: "He just can't say it in his speeches cause that would alienate the racist Union man, cause he needs them too to win."

I'm not one of his supporters, but he is missing on an opportunity to reach deep into the African-American and Latino community, since polling shows that the demographics with the highest support of socialism are these two groups. I know there is a left-wing romantic notion that speaking to progressive economics only will recapture the New Deal Joe Lunchbox white voter, but sometimes you just have to let some people go. If they listen, they listen.

But jettisoning the race issues will also alienate white workers who are allies on those issues. Just some food for thought.

Also, great thread! I go back to lurking now.

[azmom]

117. You are Union and a socialist, but not

Supporting Bernie? How is that possible?

[Starry Messenger]

118. I have a long response about that here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=16437

[azmom]

120. You made some valid points. I can respect

Your position. Thank you for sharing that.

[BainsBane]

151. Hillary says it

for some reason, she isn't worried about the racist vote. So does O'Malley for that matter, as do virtually all Democrats. They don't court racists votes.

[azmom]

168. Skinner knows more about politics than I do.

Here is what he posted in regards to Bernie saying the nation had to apologize for slavery.

"Sanders has nothing to lose from saying it, but Hillary has to think about how it would play in the general election. I have little doubt that both Hillary and Bernie believe that the United States should apologize for slavery, but obviously it is a highly controversial issue. I suspect Hillary Clinton would prefer to avoid it, as the general election politics are tricky.

This is a fairly ingenious way for Bernie Sanders to appeal to African American voters, who overwhelmingly support Hillary."

He seems to be saying Hillary would prefer not to speak about the matter of slavery if she didn't have to.

Take it for what it's worth. As a POC, I don't trust any politician. I truly believe they would all sell us out if they needed to.

[BainsBane]

169. Yes, I read Sanders statement

In that same interview, he declared that his economic message covered black folks, as though there were nothing else to address. FWIW, I happen to think apologizing for slavery is less important than addressing current conditions of the AA community. What difference does an apology make if one is not willing to redress the wrong? Of course, what really matters is what African Americans think about that.

[azmom]

170. I agree with you. There are many factors

That come into play when selecting our candidate, and it is for each one of us to decide.

[1StrongBlackMan]

171. Thank you ...

FWIW, I happen to think apologizing for slavery is less important than addressing current conditions of the AA community.

I do, too.

[randys1]

172. Apology means JACK without action, and I am not picking on Bernie here, I am picking on

white America which thinks all we have to do is apologize to you.

Fuck that.

We gotta do a WHOLE lot more than that.

[bettyellen]

166. "He just can't say it in his speeches cause that would alienate the racist Union man, cause ...

...he needs them too to win"

This is what I am afraid of. That's not progress.

[azmom]

91. It's true. I'm latina so i qualify as a POC and I see the same thing.

The white man doesn't want to deal with our issues. As long as they get theirs.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

158. I hear many white liberals especially make this false claim. It seems as though it absolves them

them examining their own racism. We all have to deal with this at some point. Racism will never be eradicated if we continue to pretend that it doesn't exist; or, that economic justice is a primary goal over racial/social justice.

[randys1]

173. WTF NO NO NO he did NOT focus on economic justice AT ALL in comparison to what his life work

actually was all about


the way you wrote it here it really pisses me off that anyone calling them-self a liberal would say that

These people need to read a fucking book once in a while

[azmom]

104. I have to leave for the weekend. I enjoyed talking

To all of you today. Have a great weekend everyone.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

115. Two points...

Point one

I don't believe African Americans , Latino Americans and undocumented Latinos aspiring to become citizens are hostile to capitalism. They just want to ensure that the rules are the same for everybody, everybody has a fair chance to get a piece of the pie, and there is a robust safety net for those who are left behind.


Point two- James Earl Ray was a unreconstructed racist and assassinated Dr. King because he was black and not because he was in Memphis to agitate for union workers of all colors.

[azmom]

119. The whole world is waking up and everyone is becoming more

Aware that there are alternatives other than capitalism. If you ask me it has brought ruin to millions of people. Look at what the bankers and their ill are doing to the poor people of Greece.
Unbridled capitalism is killing us here too. It's time we start looking for real solutions and not on propagating a system that we know is failing.

And don't be so quick in thinking Latinos will not be open to socialism. In the last presidential election Mexico had a socialist on the ticket. He did not win. But that's only because of all the corruption in the system.

[BainsBane]

140. 1917

1949, 1959, 1979. You may just be waking up, but significant populations led revolutions against capitalism starting 100 years ago.

How do you propose to do away with capitalism by voting for a president of a capitalist state, who is bound by the US Constitution, the quintessential capitalist document? How much are you willing to sacrifice for equality? Chances are good your income is well above the global average? Do you make more than $10k a year? If so, you are above global median household income. Are you willing to live on less for equality? Or are you simply looking to see the white middle class regain its position atop the capitalist world order? I haven't seen any critiques of capital among the Sanders crowd. I have seen anger that a certain segment of the population doesn't have it as easy as it used to. I see a lot of talk about taxing the rich, not the middle class or upper-middle class (despite the fact we all pay historically low taxes). I see talk about making sure Americans remain wealthier than the rest of the world rather than establish principles of equality. Because if we are talking about true equality, many people on DU need to prepared to sacrifice a great deal. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025249316 I don't see any signs of that.

[azmom]

142. Democratic socialism is what I seek.

Maybe I went too far, with my attacks on capitalism. You can have democratic socialism in a capitalist system. The two can co-exist, and they do.

[BainsBane]

143. Then don't talking about people being fed up with capitalism

as though that has anything to do with the US election because clearly it doesn't. "Democratic socialists" are politicians elected to representative government in a capitalist state. Socialism does not rise or fall based on an election. It is an economic system in which workers control the means of production. That is not what Scandinavian countries have. They have capitalist systems in which property is still private and capitalists continue to profit from the labor of workers. Those countries simply have a more significant safety net to assuage the excess of capitalism.

What you do or don't seek, however, isn't related to the election. Sanders isn't proposing anything approaching socialism, which is why much of the socialist press doesn't regard him as a socialist at all. And then there is the fact that he can make speeches about anything and it amounts to nothing if it can't get through the House and the Senate. If elected, he would face the same constitutional restrains that Obama does. For all Sanders' decades in congress, he has succeeded in getting two post offices named. He hasn't gotten any economic or social reform bill through congress, and there is nothing to indicate he will be any more successful when he isn't in the House or the Senate than when he is. But of course you won't have to worry about anything of that because chances of his winning the nomination let alone the general election are slim.

[JI7]

144. yes, if people were serious they would start at lower offices

from local councils to mayor to state legislatures . yet there is rarely any discussion about these races.

most people even here follow politics through large corporate media .

in california many of the positive statewide bills started at smaller local levels such as the bans on plastic bags by large businesses. and the raising of minimum wage to 15 dollars in los angeles.

[JustAnotherGen]

150. +1

[randys1]

175. If I understand you correctly, then yes, a bunch of capitalists (so called liberal whites supporting

Bernie) are complaining about capitalism but not because they dont like it but because their slice of that pie has shrunk.

If that is your point, I like it, I hadnt thought of it exactly like that before.

As a quasi socialist myself, who sees the need for some capitalism but far less than we have now, this makes sense.

I am still going to support Bernie, but your rational makes sense.



p.s. there are almost no actual capitalists on DU, to be a capitalist you have to make your money off of money, basically, and not labor

[BainsBane]

176. That is not Marx's definition of capitalism

Last edited Fri Jul 10, 2015, 07:09 PM - Edit history (2)

Capitalism is based on the exploitation of labor, a stage of history in which workers became alienated from the means of production. So, for example, instead of a cobbler making a pair of shoes from start to finish, he works in factory where he made only part of the shoe, repeating the same task over and over again. He doesn't own or sell the shoe. The industrialist owns what the worker produces; he controls the means of production. Finance capital and the increasing globalization of production has altered the dynamic, but industrialists are also capitalists, not just financiers.

What I am saying is that capitalism is built around inequality, and has been since its inception. It is dependent on the exploitation of labor. Our nation was borne from liberalism, the political corollary of capitalism. Notions of individual rights as opposed to the collective good provide a political and cultural context in which capital thrives. Yet those rights, liberty for some, depended on exploitation of many. The very notion of freedom for white propertied men was juxtaposed in contrast to black slavery, and slavery in fact made freedom possible for whites. (This relates to the history of white indentured servitude and how it came to be replaced by African slave labor, well established in the academic literature).

My point is this. We see here people here talk about a recent decline in the middle class. That is indeed true if one is talking primarily about the white male middle class and upper-middle class. Those people, however, imagine their experience to be universal, when it is not. They talk about the "real" Democrats like FDR who cared about "the people." Yet those were years in which the Democratic party presided over Jim Crow. Basic civil rights and the ability to prosper economically were denied to the majority of Americans: people of color, women, LGBT.

I see people outraged that they have begun to feel like what it is like to live in America, to be subject to the inequality that is at the core of our nation. I don't see a critique of capitalism itself or even an understanding of how deeply inequality runs through our society. In fact, some perpetuate that inequality even through their political protest by arguing that racism is a "distraction" from what really matters. What they are saying, though they may not be aware of it, is what really matters is them. As they insist racism and patriarchy are of lesser consequence or even mere "distractions," they deny central axes of inequality that shape people's lives and insist the only issues that matter are those than pertain to their own lives. That kind of statement is only possible through entitlement. No black person would imagine that the racism he experiences on a daily basis was universal to all Americans, regardless of skin color. No LGBT person would imagine that the bigotry they face applies equally to straight people. The statement that the only issues that matter are certain economic conditions (foreign policy is usually included too) is possible because they wrongly believe their experience is universal. Yet when they are told repeatedly it is not and but still persist in the claims, it, to my mind, becomes willfully exclusionary.

My critique really isn't about who you support for president. I really don't have an issue with people supporting a different candidate. That is their choice. What bothers me is they insist the way they frame politics is the only possible one. For upper-middle class people to lecture me about being aligned with Goldman Sachs because I don't share their contempt for Clinton is really the limit. They have no idea what it's like to live as a poor person in America, and their protest is about their class standing, even as their income is substantially higher than the national average and more than I myself can ever imagine earning. (I'm not saying this is all Sanders supporters, but rather applies to a couple who are particularly insulting of those less economically fortunate than themselves). People should vote however they choose. Support Sanders, O'Malley, Webb, whoever they want. But don't come and tell me theirs is the only way of seeing the world and that I'm aligned with corporate America because I don't share their assessment of particular members of the political elite.

[randys1]

177. That too, my bad, you are right, money off of money and exploiting labor, either way we got

very few of them here and even less on the rightwing boards I frequent.

This is a long post you have, I am known to be very lazy (read for a living, sort of) but I read it all.

I am reading all of your posts from now on, from start to finish.

How a person as bright and tuned in and mature as you is not enjoying more of our economy, is proof in and of itself how broken and bad capitalism is.

[BainsBane]

178. I'm doing fine

I have enough to live on. I don't want for necessities. I'm a lot better off than where I started.

[1StrongBlackMan]

147. LOL ...

How do you propose to do away with capitalism by voting for a president of a capitalist state, who is bound by the US Constitution, the quintessential capitalist document?

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to laugh; but, I've been asking this question for a while now ... It smacks of pure wishful thinking. And, again, If your plan starts with "if only ..." or is dependent upon an unlikely, or series of unlikely, event(s) ... it is not a plan; it's a wish.

[JustAnotherGen]

149. That's an interesting link BB

Thanks - kind of helps me to see where some of the folks here are coming from.

[randys1]

174. And because the FBI paid him to do it. I have NO doubt about that

[azmom]

121. Please read this

Thread on Bernie's social activism record. It will give you a glimpse as to the man that he really is. His campaign may suck, but he's great.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/128017387

[bettyellen]

165. and go back and read the responses- how many are slamming Obama? Hillary? Maybe half.

Fools are trying to get to the White House without us.

[randys1]

179. The slamming of Obama and Holder is really something to behold.

Something about these Black men they dont like