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a quiz and experiment for non-gun buffs/gun control advocates (Original Post) gejohnston Nov 2012 OP
Both, they are not needed for hunting or self defence n/t doc03 Nov 2012 #1
depends on what you are hunting gejohnston Nov 2012 #2
Tell me what you are hunting that a bolt action rifle doc03 Nov 2012 #3
personally, gejohnston Nov 2012 #5
Nothing wrong with semi-auto's for hunting. PavePusher Nov 2012 #10
I don't believe semi-autos are legal in PA and they doc03 Nov 2012 #17
there are usually magizine restrictions gejohnston Nov 2012 #21
I didn't know we were restricting ourselves to PA... PavePusher Nov 2012 #23
I really don't have a problem with semi-autos but to claim you doc03 Nov 2012 #32
DNR won't let you hunt ducks with more than 3 rounds in a shotgun, they sure won't allow SAMs ileus Nov 2012 #38
Part of the problem is that you are confusing hunting with Second Amendment issues. PavePusher Nov 2012 #41
There's no better it's just preference former-republican Nov 2012 #15
You didn't ask which is legal or used for hunting or used for self sefense. fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #16
they are both legal under federal law, gejohnston Nov 2012 #20
In Texas, any center fire rifle is legal for deers... Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #40
What does one "need" then? jeepnstein Nov 2012 #29
But they are perfect for use in a militia. n/t Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #34
For self defence wouldn't a plain old 12 Ga. 870 be a much better choice? n/t doc03 Nov 2012 #4
better than either of these gejohnston Nov 2012 #6
The top one is a fully automatic and doc03 Nov 2012 #8
right, gejohnston Nov 2012 #13
That buttstock on the Mini is what throws it off for me sylvi Nov 2012 #45
Bottom one, because I'm scared of black plastic. Glaug-Eldare Nov 2012 #7
If Apple made it ... holdencaufield Nov 2012 #12
The Apple iGun 5 has GPS, but has no clue where it is JustABozoOnThisBus Nov 2012 #28
I feel that gun owners should be more tightly controlled doc03 Nov 2012 #9
control is a myth discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2012 #11
"I feel that gun owners should be more tightly controlled" holdencaufield Nov 2012 #18
You don't know someone that you just wouldn't want to see doc03 Nov 2012 #22
Nothing but the law. PavePusher Nov 2012 #24
That is bullshit there is no law preventing anybody from doc03 Nov 2012 #30
There are states, like mine, that require background checks for private sales. hack89 Nov 2012 #31
Here we go with the stock Republican argument on everything doc03 Nov 2012 #35
You need to read and understand the Constitution hack89 Nov 2012 #36
What compromises are you open to in return? nt hack89 Nov 2012 #37
None. When that lot say they want 'compromise', they really mean "Gimmee what *I* want!"... friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #43
Re: it would be perfectly legal for me to do so. Trunk Monkey Nov 2012 #33
Incorrect, as I'm sure you know. PavePusher Nov 2012 #39
Not if you knew he was Charlie Manson. GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #42
Wrong. Charlie Manson is a felon, and as such is prohibited by law from purchasing or possession of a oneshooter Nov 2012 #44
There are restrictions on the right of the mentally ill or criminals 4th law of robotics Nov 2012 #49
TAPCO explosion former-republican Nov 2012 #14
The bottom one ... holdencaufield Nov 2012 #19
I never thought it was possible to mistreat a poor defenseless firearm, petronius Nov 2012 #25
It's a Reising .45 not the best example of American ingenuity former-republican Nov 2012 #26
One's all evil looking, the other is only somewhat evil? ileus Nov 2012 #27
Oh My! LawnKorn Nov 2012 #46
the top one is a gejohnston Nov 2012 #47
I cannot afford fully automatic in today's economy LawnKorn Nov 2012 #50
The bottom one 4th law of robotics Nov 2012 #48
no gun control needed MrYikes Nov 2012 #51
Why capitol punishment for a gun-crime, but not for a knife-crime, bat-crime or rock-crime? n/t PavePusher Nov 2012 #53
kicking for further discussion. Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2012 #52

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
2. depends on what you are hunting
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 10:42 PM
Nov 2012

but do you know what calibers they are? Why are they not needed or useful for for hunting or self defense? One of them useful for hunting depending on what and where. If you are talking about deer hunting in Wyoming, you would be correct. Neither would be a legal round for deer, and one would be illegal to possess in the wild. You can take it to the range, but not the sticks.

You can certainly use both for defense. May or may not be the best choice depending on the situation.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
5. personally,
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 10:49 PM
Nov 2012

I hunted with a lever action, and would go back to one, or a Ruger number one single shot, I'm traditional in that way. That is if I took hunting up again. But then, my dream car is a Willeys CJ-3 converted to electric.
But we are not talking about hunting, we are talking about these two and appropriate regulation. Can you tell what action the top firearm is?

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
21. there are usually magizine restrictions
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 12:44 AM
Nov 2012

I do know Wyoming and Florida have a five round limit on any detachable box magazine regardless of action.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
23. I didn't know we were restricting ourselves to PA...
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 12:49 AM
Nov 2012

and I'm not sure what you meant by the second half of your statement. Were you refering to manual bolts or semi-auto's?

doc03

(35,144 posts)
32. I really don't have a problem with semi-autos but to claim you
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 10:27 AM
Nov 2012

can't put (any) restrictions on (any) gun because someone thinks they need one is bogus. I need a surface to air missile because I want to hunt ducks. Why can't I have a hand-grenade it would make bass fishing a lot easier. The state of PA doesn't permit semi-autos for deer hunting and they have magazine restrictions and the hunters get along just fine. Here in Ohio modern rifles are not permitted to hunt deer and you are limited to three rounds. It's the same with congress, you have one side that that is owned by Grover Norquist and they think it's either my way or the highway. We have people that are owned by the NRA so we can't get any sensible gun laws passed. I own guns and support the 2nd amendment but I don't have any problem with some sensible gun laws. The big hole in the gun laws is what they call the gun show loophole (any private owner can sell a gun to anybody they want with no background check). I wouldn't sell a gun to any of the 4 people I know that have murdered people but what if a person doesn't know that or doesn't care?

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
41. Part of the problem is that you are confusing hunting with Second Amendment issues.
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 12:18 PM
Nov 2012

The Second Amendment has nothing to do with hunting.

And that "loophole" isn't really what you claim it is. It's not that no back-ground check is required, private sellers are forbidden by law from accessing the system to run one. Most of us would be quite happy to run such check if we could. We'd also be happy if the restrictions were "prohibited persons" were a little less arbitrary and there was a process to apply for re-instatement of Constitutional Rights after being punished for a crime.

Fix those and you solve most of the problem. The rest of your rant is mere hyperbole with no relation to reality or current law. You could fix that as well, with a little study.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
20. they are both legal under federal law,
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 12:42 AM
Nov 2012

although different federal laws apply. Both are legal for self defense. As for hunting, it depends on what and where. Since I don't hunt anymore, I have not researched Florida's law in depth, but I do know neither round is legal for deer or larger in Wyoming. Wyoming game regulations require the casing to be at least two inches long and at least .23 caliber. The top one uses a .45 ACP pistol round and the other uses the same round as an M-16, which Wyoming Game and Fish views as not powerful enough to kill a mule deer or a proghorn. The top one, when it comes to Wyoming, can not be possessed in the wild. You can own it, just can't take it out in the sticks. Wyoming law prohibits any full auto in the wild. You can take it to an established range, but not what they call "forest or field" which is pretty much anyplace out of town.

But the point was, I was expecting folks to say the bottom one needs to be more tightly regulated because it looks like an "assault weapon" while the other would be OK because it looks like a proper sporting carbine instead of an antique submachine gun.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
40. In Texas, any center fire rifle is legal for deers...
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 12:09 PM
Nov 2012

Increasingly, hogs are hunted using AR platforms.

jeepnstein

(2,631 posts)
29. What does one "need" then?
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 09:10 AM
Nov 2012

If we determine our Civil Liberties by a needs test, what is acceptable in your opinion? Do we also apply a needs test to our other rights? Are some people going to be allowed more rights because they need more?

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
6. better than either of these
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 10:51 PM
Nov 2012

especially if you lived in an apartment with thin walls. but we are talking about appropriate regulation. I will give you a hint, they are treated differently under current federal law. I think you are missing the point of the exercise.

 

sylvi

(813 posts)
45. That buttstock on the Mini is what throws it off for me
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 04:07 PM
Nov 2012

I like this setup from Archangel better:


[IMG][/IMG]


Though it only works on the Ranch Rifle model.

Glaug-Eldare

(1,089 posts)
7. Bottom one, because I'm scared of black plastic.
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 10:54 PM
Nov 2012

I don't know what all the metally bits do, but the plastic bits make it look like something out of a scary gun movie!!!

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
12. If Apple made it ...
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 11:27 PM
Nov 2012

... you could get it in white.

And it could still only have one button.

On the down side, it would know where you are all the time and you could only use authorized ammunition.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,282 posts)
28. The Apple iGun 5 has GPS, but has no clue where it is
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 07:55 AM
Nov 2012

unless you download GoogleMap app.

GoogleHunt will soon display the location of deer in your area.

doc03

(35,144 posts)
9. I feel that gun owners should be more tightly controlled
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 11:03 PM
Nov 2012

than the guns themselves. For one thing used weapons can be bought and sold by individuals
with no checks whatsoever.

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
18. "I feel that gun owners should be more tightly controlled"
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 12:24 AM
Nov 2012

Wouldn't it be nice if we could tightly control everyone who doesn't believe the same we do?

Such harmony

doc03

(35,144 posts)
22. You don't know someone that you just wouldn't want to see
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 12:46 AM
Nov 2012

carrying a gun? A person that is seriously mentally ill, a murderer can just buy a gun from someone advertising in the classifieds with absolutely no background check. I personally know two guys that decided they wanted to kill a black person and they gunned a high school
student just walking down the sidewalk. Both of them have been released from prison and nothing keeps them from going to a gun show or buying a gun out of the merchanette with no background check.

doc03

(35,144 posts)
30. That is bullshit there is no law preventing anybody from
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 09:54 AM
Nov 2012

buying a gun off a private owner. I could sell a gun today to Charlie Manson if he was not in prison and it would be perfectly legal for me to do so.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
31. There are states, like mine, that require background checks for private sales.
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 10:06 AM
Nov 2012

it is not something that bothers most gun owners.

However, it has to be done on a state by state basis - it is not a federal issue.

And since the state has no idea what guns are in the state and who owns them, such a law would be very difficult to enforce.

doc03

(35,144 posts)
35. Here we go with the stock Republican argument on everything
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 10:46 AM
Nov 2012

leave it up to the states. What good would it do in my tri-state area if two states had such a law and one didn't? I can get in my car and drive to all three in 30 minutes. Do you agree with Romney that Romneycare is good in MA but to have Obamacare nationally is bad? That's why we fought the civil war unless you believe the Faux News version of history, the south thought they should own slaves (States Rights). There are some things that require a national law. This is my last post on the subject it makes no point to argue with people that aren't open to any kind of comprimise on an issue it's like the teabaggers in congress it's our way or the highway.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
36. You need to read and understand the Constitution
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 10:57 AM
Nov 2012

the federal government cannot regulate intrastate commerce. Why do you think the federal government presently regulates every aspect of gun sales except private intrastate sales

 

Trunk Monkey

(950 posts)
33. Re: it would be perfectly legal for me to do so.
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 10:33 AM
Nov 2012

No, Actually, it wouldn't since you would know that he is a prohibited person and even if you didn't recognize him it would still be illegal for him to purchase the gun.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
42. Not if you knew he was Charlie Manson.
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 12:48 PM
Nov 2012

If you knew that then you would be responsible. He would need to give you a phony name.

At a gun show if you buy from a dealer then you have to go through the background check. Most sales are through dealers.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
44. Wrong. Charlie Manson is a felon, and as such is prohibited by law from purchasing or possession of a
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 02:14 PM
Nov 2012

firearm. To sell it to him is also illegal if you have previous knowledge of him being a felon. If you do not then is a felony for him to obtain, or purchase a firearm.

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
49. There are restrictions on the right of the mentally ill or criminals
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 06:58 PM
Nov 2012

here's the catch though: they have to be diagnosed as mentally ill, and they have to be tried and convicted first.

That's what most people seem to overlook.

They ask how could Loughner get a gun since he was so obviously insane. Do we allow the deranged to carry freely!?!?!?

Except he was never actually diagnosed as such prior to getting a gun. So as far as the law was concerned he was just another citizen.

The alternative would be to assume everyone is mentally ill and unworthy of rights until they can prove otherwise.

That would cut done on some problems. It would also lead to fascism. So that's not really a great option.

petronius

(26,580 posts)
25. I never thought it was possible to mistreat a poor defenseless firearm,
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 12:59 AM
Nov 2012

until I saw that bottom picture. Gawd, that's fugly! (Although the top one's no prize either...)

 

former-republican

(2,163 posts)
26. It's a Reising .45 not the best example of American ingenuity
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 01:18 AM
Nov 2012

The Thompson replaced it but it did see combat.

ileus

(15,396 posts)
27. One's all evil looking, the other is only somewhat evil?
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 07:09 AM
Nov 2012

No wait........one was designed to kill on wasn't ?

Hold on.....guns kill people. They're both the same.



I've got it this time...the one with the folding and/or adjustable stock, detachable magazine, pistol grip, rails, flash hider and super scary black plastic stock should be more tightly controlled. Just the looks of that beast makes me want to hide.

LawnKorn

(1,137 posts)
46. Oh My!
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 05:38 PM
Nov 2012

One of them required the killing of a tree to make the wooden stock
The other one required drilling for oil to make the plastic stock.

I am going to have to have both of them in order to do a fair evaluation. How much do they cost?

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
47. the top one is a
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 06:52 PM
Nov 2012

Reising model 50 submachine gun. I have not seen one on gunbroker, but not cheap if you can find one. Then there is NFA. The other is just a Ruger Mini-14 not sure where the furniture came from.

LawnKorn

(1,137 posts)
50. I cannot afford fully automatic in today's economy
Sat Nov 3, 2012, 05:41 AM
Nov 2012

I guess I will just have to petition for the repeal of laws restricting private ownership of submachine guns. Until then, I can go to the local gun shop and check out Mini-14s, of which I do not currently own one.

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
48. The bottom one
Fri Nov 2, 2012, 06:54 PM
Nov 2012

because it looks scarier. And with that black finish and pistol grip is like 57% deadlier and stuff.

MrYikes

(720 posts)
51. no gun control needed
Sat Nov 3, 2012, 06:39 AM
Nov 2012

A person shall be put to death quickly if in possession of a firearm while committing a crime.

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