Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumGun Range Suicides
Last edited Wed Oct 24, 2012, 01:26 AM - Edit history (2)
http://www.news-press.com/article/20121016/NEWS0110/310160014/Can-t-stop-gun-range-suicides-experts-say?odyssey=mod|newswell|text||s
Suicides like the one Sunday at a Fort Myers gun range, while not common, are difficult to prevent, local firearms experts say.
Richard Arlen Kelley, 75, of Fort Myers, committed suicide at Fowler Firearms and Gun Range on Fowler Avenue. He had taken shooting practice for about 20 minutes, a store official said Monday. Josh Hackman, general manager at the Fowler store, said theres nothing anyone at the store could have done to prevent Kelley from shooting himself.
He came in, showed his ID, signed the waiver, we showed him how to use the gun, and then he shot for about 20 minutes, he said. Then he shot himself. That was it.
The biased spin job of an article goes on to say "The News-Press archives show at least six other similar suicides at gun ranges around the United States in the past three years." Now, we know that's some shabby archives they've got there. A casual look shows more than that. The Scottsdale Gun Club has had half that themselves, for crying out loud.
No, this problem is a lot more widespread than the pro gun crowd would have us believe. That's their strategy, to lie about the extent of a problem and then divide by all the guns in the entire country and say the percentage is insignificant. They combine that approach with the one in the article in which they claim nothing can be done about it. But that's usually self-serving nonsense.
The problem with all their justifications is we're talking about lives, human lives. Renting guns to suicidal people is wrong and every effort should be made to stop it.
What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
Cross posted at Mikeb302000
Reasonable_Argument
(881 posts)A store owner to instantly assess the mental state, with perfect accuracy, of everyone who walks through their doors?
mikeb302000
(1,065 posts)But, an effort must be made. Maybe even a waiting period. Why not require a reservation of 24 hours? Don't you think that would help?
Reasonable_Argument
(881 posts)Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)What exactly are you suggesting? Requiring me to make an advance reservation to shoot at a gun range? Should I sleep over at the range so they can observe me? And no, an asinine, POINTLESS restriction like that would accomplish NOTHING.
mikeb302000
(1,065 posts)Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)I don't see any mechanism in your plan that prevents a suicidal person from using a gun range to commit suicide. It makes it less convenient, but there's nothing there that actually stops him. All it does is completely disrupt the ability of the business to function, which I believe is your real goal in the first place.
Unless I'm totally off the mark here, and resolving suicidal ideation is as simple as saying "just take it easy, you'll feel better tomorrow."
Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to a range that rents firearms? Do you have even the slightest notion of how that kind of business operates?
Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)As always, the intention is not to save lives at all. Gun control advocates are bigger fans of death than they realize, because it gives them bodies to point at while they pitch unrelated schemes to inconvenience, harass, regulate, and prohibit civil liberties they don't approve of.
mikeb302000
(1,065 posts)gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Most people are chilled out by the time they get to the store. Suicide is independent of means.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Pull the other one...
trouble.smith
(374 posts)and this was his only option other than to die slowly and painfully. and if so, wouldn't that suck most of the air out of your premise? Suicide is awful but, for some, it is, regrettably, a reasonable and merciful alternative.
mikeb302000
(1,065 posts)This way it reflects badly on all gun owners and gun ranges. Look how defensive you all are.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Has nothing to do with any other gun owners or gun ranges.
trouble.smith
(374 posts)unsurprising though because, as usual, you don't actually have a legitimate argument to make here. Your premise was chock full of fail from the beginning (as usual).
Francis Marion
(250 posts)How about a cooling off period before crossing the Golden Gate.
You could buy a ticket and submit to a psychological profile before traveling across the bridge the next day.
Before buying a bottle of Boone's Farm, you could get permission from an AA counselor; you could buy it ten days later only if they're convinced you're not about to go on a bender.
People could buy tickets for the Grand Canyon the year prior to when they plan to visit; that way, there will be time for a battery of psychiatric exams and tests which they must pass in order to enjoy a summer vacation.
You really have hit upon a strategy for better living through mandatory benevolent arbitrary caution.
ileus
(15,396 posts)And firearms....
People need to realize the rights they're killing are mine.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)I see nothing wrong with a gun rental at a range. It allows people to try out a gun, and if they like it, they can buy it. If they don't, its a lot cheaper than buying it and having to resell it.
Even if a range didn't rent guns, people could just as easily buy a gun, go to the parking lot and shoot themselves. I know some gun ranges require you to bring a gun, in order to rent one, but that is a policy I disagree with. The first time I rented I gun, I didn't have any, but I bought one shortly after because I liked shooting it.
If you want to lower suicide, we need to fix the damn economy, get people gainfully employed, improve mental health services, I don't think changing gun regulations will have a major impact.
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)1 Bleeding
1.1 Wrist cutting
2 Drowning
3 Suffocation
4 Hypothermia
5 Electrocution
6 Jumping from height
7 Firearms
8 Hanging
9 Vehicular impact
9.1 Rail
9.1.1 Place9.1.2 Method and time9.1.3 Europe9.1.4 Japan9.1.5 North America9.1.6 Reducing the number of rail-related suicides
9.2 Metro systems
9.3 Traffic collisions
9.4 Aircraft
10 Poison
10.1 Pesticide
10.2 Drug overdose
10.3 Carbon monoxide
10.4 Other toxins
11 Disease
12 Immolation
12.1 Volcano
13 Ritual suicide
13.1 Seppuku
13.2 Autosacrifice
14 Starvation
15 Dehydration
16 Explosion
17 Suicide attack
18 Indirect suicide
EX500rider
(10,448 posts)And i don't even want to know what "Autosacrifice" is...
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)No, this problem is a lot more widespread than the pro gun crowd would have us believe. That's their strategy, to lie about the extent of a problem and then divide by all the guns in the entire country and say the percentage is insignificant. They combine that approach with the one in the article in which they claim nothing can be done about it. But that's usually self-serving nonsense.
Perhaps you can cite to how much more "widespread" this "problem" is? Got stats?
Your problem is that this method of suicide is statistically insignificant, and no matter how many times you yell "Suicide!!" in a crowded discussion forum, no-one will give you the unreasoned stampede you want. Speaking of self-serving nonsense. Selling fear... you suck at it.
But since you think it's such an overwhelming problem, please state your proposals to effectively deal with it without trampling the Rights of everyone in the process.
mikeb302000
(1,065 posts)These biased liars said there were 6 cases they knew about. I showed you a place where they've had 3 all in the same place.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)you made a baseless claim.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Richard Arlen Kelley, 75, of Fort Myers, committed suicide at Fowler Firearms and Gun Range on Fowler Avenue. He had taken shooting practice for about 20 minutes, a store official said Monday. Josh Hackman, general manager at the Fowler store, said theres nothing anyone at the store could have done to prevent Kelley from shooting himself.
He came in, showed his ID, signed the waiver, we showed him how to use the gun, and then he shot for about 20 minutes, he said. Then he shot himself. That was it.
The biased spin job of an article goes on to say "The News-Press archives show at least six other similar suicides at gun ranges around the United States in the past three years." Now, we know that's some shabby archives they've got there. A casual look shows more than that. , for crying out loud.
No, this problem is a lot more widespread than the pro gun crowd would have us believe. That's their strategy, to lie about the extent of a problem and then divide by all the guns in the entire country and say the percentage is insignificant. They combine that approach with the one in the article in which they claim nothing can be done about it. But that's usually self-serving nonsense.
The problem with all their justifications is we're talking about lives, human lives. Renting guns to suicidal people is wrong and every effort should be made to stop it.
What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)So what efforts do you suggest?
How is a store employee supposed to know if someone is suicidal or not?
mikeb302000
(1,065 posts)Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)When I visit my relatives in Atlanta, I'm tired of showing up at the indoor range and having to wait for a stall to become available. I would *love* to reserve in advance. They could even set it up on their web site so you can see availability. I think I will suggest this next time I'm in town and go shooting. This would be a boon to customer service.
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)Both you and Baldr Odinson claim your mikeb30200 blog as their own.
Are you and Baldr Odinson the same person?
rl6214
(8,142 posts)Last edited Wed Oct 17, 2012, 05:13 PM - Edit history (1)
Doing a little research, he claims to be a blogger out of Eugene, OR
mikeb302000
(1,065 posts)Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)But you are Baldr Odinson?
I'm just wondering how he claims ownership to your blog.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Kennah
(14,010 posts)4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Renting cars to people who intend to fill them with fertilizer and blow up a federal building is wrong.
Every effort should be made to stop it.
Therefore it should be illegal to rent a car to someone who clearly states in advance that they intend to use it for some nefarious purpose.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)most folks employ, then proclaim "...the problem is a lot more widespread." Is this self-innoculation against sound argument?
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)Lock them away. They're criminals!
Kennah
(14,010 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)...we can't be sure they're really suicidal unless they been charged and found guilty of attempted suicide. If they have, I say kill 'em. They leave us no choice. Even in prison, they may try to repeat their crime.
Kennah
(14,010 posts)petronius
(26,576 posts)won't rent firearms to people who come in alone. I've always assumed that that was an attempt to reduce the (already tiny) risk of a suicide, but it could also be a means to increase the number of paying guests.
Suicide is a horrible tragedy, but it's not a gun problem - solutions to suicide don't lie in the area of gun policy. Rather, it's a question of mental health treatment, family and community support, medical and economic safety nets, etc. And, for those truly at the point of an end-of-life decision, legal assisted suicide should be available.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)that to rent a gun, you need to be with a buddy or have brought a gun of your own. The theory is that your buddy will try to stop the suicide and that if you brought your own gun you will not need one of theirs to kill yourself.
Grave Grumbler
(160 posts)ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)some will claim the rule is working.
mikeb302000
(1,065 posts)Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)Is it a possible thing for a gun control law to be unacceptably onerous?
mikeb302000
(1,065 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)...the "Rent a Buddy" shop opens next door.
aletier_v
(1,773 posts)The publicity is terrible, certainly not worth $10 for the rental.
The cleanup costs... police interviews... etc, etc.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)All of the ranges in San Diego have adopted a policy of never renting a gun to a first-time customer who shows up alone.
That's all I have to contribute.
mikeb302000
(1,065 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... but it is inevitable. Statistic show that 97% of all people die at some point in their life -- nothing you do or don't do about firearms will change that statistic.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Your BIAS is showing, mikeb30200.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)They'll need it.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)...is the store responsible for someone commiting suicide?
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)Just as Ruger and Smith & Wesson are responsible.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts).
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)...legal grounds to make that determination?
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)....the gun manufacturer did not rent.
The store did.
What legal grounds do they have to determine whether someone is qualified to operate a gun?
I'm sure a court will tell them if they don't have something already.
Shoot...no pun intended....they can start by simply asking the question.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)...that would be an invasion of privacy.
Perhaps, the same NICS check that applies to sales should apply to rentals?
What do you think?
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)No one is forcing you to rent a gun from a store.
Answer health questions, sign a waiver to protect owner releasing that information and save a life.
Try bungee jumping or sky diving and you can preview the form.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)...saves a life is beyond me. Have a nice night.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)have to show that the clerk would have reason to believe that the person was suicidal, which they can't. Of course, that opens the door to Hertz getting sued for renting to a drunk.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts).
Heck, putting someone in a cab who is drunk can create liability if the person stops and gets out and starts drinking again resulting later in death depending on dram shop laws in your state.
You better believe Hertz faces liability.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Hertz does it every day.
There is no Constitutional right to be able to rent a potential killing machine...car or gun.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)does say something about punishing those who had no knowledge or ability to detect. If Hertz rents a car to a guy who then kills himself by driving like an idiot, the clerk and the company is not responsible for his death, legally or morally. The same applies to the range.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Fact.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)he could be sober before renting then go get drunk off his ass.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Problem solved.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)...is a transfer (permanent or temporary) of possession, under the law for most things.
But my fault, I did forget the thing.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)I'm sure there are good attorneys who can argue either position with or without merit.
But it's naive to think that his heirs lack standing to make a claim against a store who rents a gun and then kills with it. Exhibit A: You may call your first witness......Doctor.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)and the question in reply #1.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Repeat your question.
Question 1 is:
A store owner to instantly assess the mental state, with perfect accuracy, of everyone who walks through their doors?
Who says instantly is appropriate?
Who says 'perfect accuracy' is the standard?
Who says you simply ask them and get a release?
Who says anyone has a constitutional right to rent anything from a property owner?
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Sticks and stones
mikeb302000
(1,065 posts)You don't see it cause you don't want to see it. Anything that reflects badly on guns or gun rights you pretend not to see.
The shooter is responsible for taking his own life. The gun shop is responsible for having given him the means and venue. That's FULL individual responsibility, not the half-assed one that you like which ignores the gun shop's part.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)I doubt it works that way in Italy. Then again, if their civil system is anything like their criminal system
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/12/10/can_anyone_get_a_fair_trial_in_italy
So if some guy buys or rents a car and drives it off a cliff to do himself in, is Hertz responsible? Is the guy at Wal Mart or Ace responsible if he or she sells the rope to someone who uses that means, which is the most common in Europe? See where this goes?
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... and in a fit of despair ... I drive it at 120mph into a concrete abutment.
Now, I'm sure my heirs (well not mine because they're sane people, but someone's heirs) will attempt to sue Avis for damages. However, unless the judge graduated law school on Alpha Centauri, the case will be tossed out of court.
The lessor's duty of care extends to providing a vehicle (or in this case, a firearm) in good working order and to assure lessee can reasonably demonstrate his ability to operate it (in the case of a car, that is a valid driver's license).
Simo 1939_1940
(768 posts)And that includes regulars that all of the employees know.
Francis Marion
(250 posts)as self-abortion, cloaked in saintly, un-opposable 'right to choose!' stridency.
In truth, though, it's just sad and devastating when life ends.
If only they'd choose to talk to somebody instead and seek help, any action that doesn't hurt themselves would be preferable to one bad decision that can never be taken back.
It's pitiful to leave such havoc for family, passersby, not to mention first responders, to deal with.
Give it some more time. Things will get better. We want you here with us.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)
Union Scribe This message was self-deleted by its author.