Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumInside the home of crazed Belgian killer who launched grenade attack on Christmas market
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073578/Nordine-Amrani-Inside-home-crazed-Liege-killer-launched-Belgium-grenade-attack.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/12/14/MNQB1MCEN1.DTL
Good thing dope makes people mellow, can you imagine what he'd have done if he was a juicer?
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)I love making my own OJ every morning.
My FIL is none to happy about it. He works for Tropicana.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)How does somebody get rocket launchers?
DonP
(6,185 posts)Or so we've been assured by some former and current posters. They are especially easy to find near the Mexican border and if you have any problem finding them, just look for the guy in the BATFE shirt and he'll hook you right up.
They are usually right next to those cheap and easy full auto conversions kits for Springfield '03s and Winchester '92s.
We_Have_A_Problem
(2,112 posts)Of course its only in America where there's a real "gun problem"...
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I would hope the intelligence services are all over him like a cheap suit. Those weapons need to be sourced and the supplier shutdown.
I don't know what kept him from making a more determined display/stand but from what we're seeing it seems like he was ready to do a lot more harm. It seems this could have been much, much worse -- cold comfort though that may be to those already devastated by this crime.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)There are two launchers in the center of the picture. The one on the left is a M72 LAW Rocket. These are one-shot disposable rocket launchers. Once the rocket is launched the tube is tossed, as it cant be re-loaded. He could have picked up the empty tube at a military garbage dump.
If the LAW is loaded he could have gotten it from military stocks of one of the countries that use it. Perhaps a corrupt soldier sold it.
I cant identify the one on the right, but it looks similar to the LAW. Maybe a LAW variant used by Australia, Republic of China, Finland, Turkey or the UK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_rocket
Euromutt
(6,506 posts)The Soviet answer to the M72: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-18
Note in particular the large decal with operating instructions.
An interesting point there is that both the M72 and the RPG-18 are at best obsolescent, having been replaced by the [link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT4|AT4] and the [link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-22|RPG-22], respectively, from the mid-1980s onwards. Which means that if either or both LAWs are loaded, they probably came out of reserve stocks rather than active stocks, which would make them a bit easier to steal.
The Daily Fail lives up to its nickname once again, though, with the reference to a "hunting rifle" in the photo. You don't even have to know much about firearms to notice the lack of metal parts, such as a trigger, trigger guard, barrel or even the sling swivel on the butt. In short, it's a stripped stock.
The paper does seem to have corrected an earlier error, in the excerpt one-eyed fat man posted, referring to "healing and sexual offenses." In case you're wondering what a "healing offense" is, the Dutch/Flemish word heling means "fencing" as in trafficking stolen goods, and I suspect there was a mistranslation.
one-eyed fat man
(3,201 posts)I had misidentified it as a Yugoslav M80.
Looking closer, I can see it's more likely to be an RPG-18. I had suspected the M80 as it was widely used in the Yugoslav Wars. You have said you spent some time in that area as well. So you would be aware that many ended up in civilian hands and have been used in a number of violent incidents. The weapon has also been used by organized crime.
Euromutt
(6,506 posts)I haven't actually spent time in the former Yugoslavia, but I've spent a few years doing stuff pertaining to that area, albeit from offices in the Netherlands. And yes, former Yugoslav hardware does have a disconcerting way of making its way to western Europe, generally along the same route as heroin.
As I noted previously, the RPG-18 is obsolescent at best, having been replaced by the RPG-22 from the mid-1980s onwards, and I'd guess that Amrani's was probably flogged off by some Soviet soldier in Czechoslovakia or East Germany around 1990, when the Sovs were preparing to pull out of the former Warsaw Pact countries, and a lot of soldiers were trying to make some hard currency by selling off as much military hardware as they could get away with. As I recall, the going rates were 200 German marks for an AK-74 and 50 for a hand grenade.
one-eyed fat man
(3,201 posts)Also got diverted by East bloc intelligence services, primarily the the East German Stasi and the Czechoslovak StB and provided to Rote Armee Fraktion and the Brigate Rosse.
The PLO and Hamas had long been sending Soviet and Czech weapons in exchange for hard currency, as you say, along the traditional heroin smuggling routes through Malta, Sardinia, the Bosporus and the Balkans.
The Serbian Mafia is a major player there and they are quite notorious for assassinations of rivals in broad daylight and in public places.
I have been given to understand that Serbs have surpassed the Russians in Netherlands, Belgium and parts of Germany and share with the Turks responsibility for much of the arms smuggling.
Sounds like the kind of circles Amrani traveled.
Dr_Scholl
(212 posts)You can't exactly just walk into a hardware store and buy them.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...but you can buy probably buy a T-62 or two at your local gun show.
We_Have_A_Problem
(2,112 posts)But you can get a T55 and a T72 here : http://www.mortarinvestments.eu/products/tanks-2
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)... retirement home
That reminds me, I need some megamillions tickets!
We_Have_A_Problem
(2,112 posts)I'd love to have one - think of the possibilities - especially if you love the outdoors and privacy? Hell, I'd love to build a media room in one of those. Imagine the acoustics!
Yeah - i know - not for everybody...
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...the price has been reduced.
We_Have_A_Problem
(2,112 posts)Not QUITE enough....plus there's that whole "moving out to the middle of nowhere" thing.
I love the idea, but since SWMBO does not...well...you know how that works.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...a short 15 mile/35 minute drive from beautiful downtown Plattsburgh!
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...there's room to garden
We_Have_A_Problem
(2,112 posts)Gardening is NOT her style. Shes as likely as I am to want to spend a free afternoon out on the motorcycle. She just wouldn't want to have to drive an hour for her Starbucks fix....
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...bought me a Keurig; $5 buys me 10 cups of coffee.
I pretty much only hits Starbucks in the airport or sometimes when I go to philly.
one-eyed fat man
(3,201 posts)The place has a runway, even a Cessna 172 will get you NYC, Boston, Quebec in no time. If you can afford the spread you could afford to buy yourself a cool airplane.
We_Have_A_Problem
(2,112 posts)and that I could afford the spread...
I don't exactly have that kinda coin in the couch cushions...
one-eyed fat man
(3,201 posts)either, but I know how to fly....and how to work on old warbirds. Up in that part of the country, a Beaver on amphibious floats would be the ultimate RV.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...that would "fly" in the Winter.
Euromutt
(6,506 posts)The T-62 was a piece of crap, particularly because of the automatic case ejection system on the main gun. It meant that after every shot, the gun went into this automatic cycle of going to maximum depression (disabling the power traverse in the process), ejecting the case through the ejection port on the back of the turret, and resetting itself. Because this was Sov kit, it was slow and while the gun was cycling, you were a sitting duck. Also, because it was Sov kit, the ejector often missed the ejection port, resulting in a hot 115mm shell case bouncing around inside the crew compartment.
It's telling that the Israelis actually took T-54s and T-55s they'd captured off the Egyptians and Syrians and used them themselves (as the Tiran series), even going so far as to upgrade some with new guns, optics, electronics, and engines (the Ti-67 series). They tried doing something similar with the T-62, but after building a few prototypes, they judged that particular game wasn't worth the candle and used the rest as gunnery targets.
I use an old-fashioned safety razor, and I buy Israeli-made blades which come in packs of 100, which retailer gets in cases of 10,000 (100 packs of 100 blades). I like to joke they're made of recycled T-62s.
one-eyed fat man
(3,201 posts)Rocket launchers in the picture appear to be a US made M72A1 LAW on the left and a Yugoslav M80 Zolya on the right. They are roughly contemporaries and were designed as handheld anti-tank rockets roughly the same role as the old bazooka or the RPG.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M72_LAW
These weapons were unique in that the launcher was also the shipping container for the rocket. A soldier opened up the tube, fired the rocket and destroyed the empty launcher. They were not intended to be reused, but once fired the empties were often used to train recruits how to use them. Some places the empties were sold as display pieces.
Without closer examination it would be difficult to say whether those in the picture are live or not. The controls on the LAW by NATO would likely have been pretty good. On the other hand, military hardware from former Warsaw Pact countries not so much. Odds are both are empty but a slim possibility exists that the M80 is live. Given Amrani's penchant for dealing in illicit goods like drugs and weapons, it would not be a big stretch that he might trade drugs for weapons from someone in the former East bloc.
As a practical matter, almost any open tube of the right diameter could be used as a rocket launcher. Hamas, the Viet Cong, and countless "Liberation Fronts" have used improvised launchers for Katyusha type 122 mm rockets. A simple set of cross sticks pointing the rocket in the desired direction and at the correct elevation is sufficient. By using a time fuse to delay the launch, counter-battery radar is rendered ineffective in that there is no one to shoot back at despite the radar letting you know where the rocket was launched.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-battery_radar
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)It's the bland leading the blind.
BTW -- I spend a considerable amount of time googling details about your posts to find out what you're talking about. "counter-battery radar"? oy!
We_Have_A_Problem
(2,112 posts)With a story about evil weapons?
You're kidding right?
It could have been a piece of PVC painted to look like a launcher for a Halloween costume, and some reporters would still call it a missile.
one-eyed fat man
(3,201 posts)the reporter would likely be a lot more qualified to comment on the quality of Amrani's dope than the condition of his weaponry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service#Belgium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis#Belgium
I'd lay odds the reporter was more likely to have spent his college years partying than as a draftee in the Belgian army so as far as first hand knowledge goes...
Euromutt
(6,506 posts)The Daily Fail says it's a "hunting rifle," failing to observe the lack of trigger, barrel or any other metal parts.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...were used by VC to rig booby traps by loading the empty tubes with armed grenades. The tube would hold closed the lever and a trip wire would overturn the tube and release the grenade(s). This lead to the need to destroy the spent M72s.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)..."Where there's a will, there's a weapon."
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)by people named Will.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...yield a very contentious "Bill"
Upton
(9,709 posts)A grow of that size is obviously not for personal use, but for monetary gain..
one-eyed fat man
(3,201 posts)Cultivating that much weed would require initiative.
ileus
(15,396 posts)Euromutt
(6,506 posts)The Dutch Volkskrant reprints a story from Flemish newspaper Het Laatste Nieuws.
After being convicted on weapons charges in 2008, and being sentenced to 58 months in prison and an 11,000 fine, Amrani was released in October 2010 on parole. Conditions of his parole included avoiding using drugs and alcohol, not looking up old friends, having a source of income and a fixed abode. A "justice assistant" (parole officer) assigned to monitor him focused only on the last two. Because no explicit authorization was given, the parole officer could not monitor whether Amrani was trying to possess drugs or weapons. The police for their part failed to keep tabs on Amrani because of a guideline instructing police not to monitor parolees unless a complaint is filed against them.
Which is how he was able to set up an indoor cannabis plantation and again acquire a load of weapons.
Evidently, the Belgian criminal justice system failed to learn the lessons it should have drawn from the [link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux|Dutroux affair]. I'm all for leaving a convict alone when he's completed his sentence and notionally "paid his debt to society," but when you're out on parole, that debt is not yet paid off. Moreover, this guy had a sufficiently long prior record that you could fairly call him a "career criminal" and you have to seriously wonder who thought it was a good idea to let him out on parole in the first place instead of keeping him in for his full sentence.