Good news. ATF jerks starting to pay for Agent Terry murder.

[E6-B]

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/01/09/finally_atf_officials_involved_in_fast_and_furious_reprimanded

It has been more than a year since his murder. So far these are the small fish.

[X_Digger]

1. Wasn't McMahon promoted / moved laterally?

I seem to recall McMahon, Newell and one other key players moving to cushier spots.

[E6-B]

4. McMahon suspended

As of now, McMahon is suspended.

[PavePusher]

2. Someone will be along shortly to chastise you for your "source" of "news".

Until then, consider yourself duly warned.

Now, go forth, do good works, and do it again.

[Hoyt]

3. Fortunately, most on DU would consider "Townhall" right up there with "Stormfront" and similar sites

I would suggest un-bookmarking it and reading DU or similar sites.

[friendly_iconoclast]

6. Thank God Townhall hasn't claimed 2 + 2 equals four.

We'd all be unable to do our taxes...

[DanTex]

10. You don't need to go to Townhall to find "2+2=4"

The reason you go to Townhall is to find "2+2=5"

[friendly_iconoclast]

12. Do point out any and all inaccuracies in the linked piece.

We'll wait...

[DanTex]

15. Do you also want me to go over to Stormfront or godhates___ and "point out their inaccuracies"?

After all, if the only place you can find an article is on Stormfront, then it's probably a piece of garbage. And if it's on Stormfront and also on a less batshitty source, I don't see why anybody would put the Stormfront link up here on DU.

Do you?

[friendly_iconoclast]

39. Nope, just the actual link in the OP will do. Willful ignorance is not a virtue.

[E6-B]

19. In this case 2+2 does = 4 on townhall.

[DanTex]

25. How do you know? Just because it says so on Townhall?

Can you find some non-right-wing source for this angle of the story? And if so, why not just post the non-right-wing source directly, rather than Townhall?

That's (one of) the problems with linking to these right-wing sources. The facts may or may not be correct, but you can't really have confidence that they are telling the full and accurate story. Even if some of the facts are correct, often others are omitted and the whole story is presented in a misleading way.

A broken clock is right twice a day, but it's still useless, because you can't tell whether it's right at any given time unless you have a non-broken clock to compare it to.

[E6-B]

27. Check Chicago Tribune

[DanTex]

28. So why not just link to the Tribune article instead of Townhall?

Maybe it's because the Tribune article also includes some facts that you would rather ignore.
Or maybe it's not really "just the facts" that you're interested in, it's the commentary that accompanies them: the anti-Obama conspiracy undertones and the gun militancy that you don't get from legitimate news sources.

[rl6214]

34. No facts ignored here

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-rt-mexico-usagunsl1e8c5ci3-20120105,0,3395168.story

[E6-B]

41. Maybe maybe not

Nope. Both article still say that guns were sold to drug cartels

[DanTex]

48. Wonder why you picked the Townhall one which also included right-wing editorializing...

[E6-B]

55. Let me guess? Vast right wing conspiracy?

[rl6214]

23. there we go, right on cue, the ATF apologists have shown up

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. Now that's an idiotic post

Saying Townhall, an infamous RW site, is similar to Stormfront, and that people are better off reading DU, is in no way being an "ATF apologist". You know why? Because it doesn't mention the ATF. It doesn't even mention alcohol, tobacco or firearms. it's just a statement of the bleedin' obvious that every DUer should already know and agree with.

[beevul]

44. The post you refer to...

The post you refer to, and the message it contained, most likely did not have as much to do with the post it was a reply to, as it might seem @ first glance.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but a perusal of this forum, and of the old DU2 guns forum, specifically of threads dealing with ATF and "fast and furious"...might...add some context which, unless you've read them, you'd be missing.

[DanTex]

5. Yay Townhall.com!!!

Welcome to the Democratic Underground. A quick tip: when posting right-wing content from right-wing web sites for satirical purposes, it's usually best to use the tag.

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. Are you claiming it's bogus, or expressing your dislike of the source?

Can we say "genetic fallacy"? Good, I just knew we could!

[DanTex]

9. Yay buzzwords!!!

I wonder if there's anybody the pro-gunners wouldn't stand behind for the sake of the "the cause". Would Stormfront be OK with you? The writings of Tim McVeigh? Westboro Baptist?

[friendly_iconoclast]

11. I notice you're not actually *disputing* what was said in the link...

...merely kvetching about the source. Let's take that approach to something you said, shall we?:

I wonder if there's anybody the anti-gunners wouldn't stand behind for the sake of the "the cause".

Like Michael Bloomberg? Founder, financier, and chief mouthpiece for MAIG?

Sauce for goose, meet gander...

[DanTex]

13. I notice you're not actually *answering* my questions...

Seriously, how far is too far. If someone starts linking to Stormfront here on DU, are you gonna be like, "well, yeah, they're a bunch of white supremacist assholes, but they LOVES THEM SOME GUNZZZZZ". Where's the line?

Also, re: Bloomberg... Nice Try!!!

[gejohnston]

14. who ever is competent and half way honest on the issue.

About the only issue maybe (never read townhall)
Do you think Media Matters or Crooks and Liars are going to honestly report this? No. These are the guys that can't bother to be consistent about Bush's terrorist list or bother to ask the ATF "this Al Qaida guy says you can legally buy machine guns without background checks, is that true?"
One is hypocritical and the other is demonstrably false, am I supposed to believe them simply because of the source? By your logic, you should be against the AWB because it was Bill Bennett's idea.

[E6-B]

18. I'm no white so what is your point?

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. I apparently missed your condemnation of MAIG due to their ties to Bloomberg.

Perhaps you could repost it?

[DanTex]

47. I notice you're not actually *answering* my questions...

[friendly_iconoclast]

65. Either a site has factual information, or it does not. Period.

Who runs it is irrelevant in that instance.

I would have preferred the Chicago Tribune had been the link, and in similar cases I've gone and found non-RW links (when available) and posted them.

In any case, the source is irrelevant as you have disproved neither the Townhall one nor the Chicago Tribune article
Scant wonder you carp about the source, as you apparently can't deny the substance of what was said.

MAIG would be still be full of shit no matter who was running it. The fact remains they were created and are funded by Michael Bloomberg, so all the
bug-eyed outrage over sources is more than a bit hypocritical.

[Hoyt]

16. I think we all should be condemning the source, don't you?

What's that about a broken clock?

[DanTex]

35. It is really a shame that nobody on the pro-gun side is willing to condemn this.

Some are even defending it.

Townhall is pretty bad. Is there nobody who's willing to say "I support gun rights, but really DU should be a Townhall-free environment"?

[rl6214]

37. I posted I would not link to them

I found the Chicago Tribune link and posted that BUT I think we are all smart enough here to recognize what a site is and take it for what it's worth without getting all bent out of shape over it.

[DanTex]

50. I'll ask again, if the link was to Stormfront, would you feel the same way?

And if not, do you really know what Townhall is about? Do I need to give examples of some of the garbage that they publish? OK, I will.

You see, overt racism is generally frowned upon these days. Not that racism isn't still around, but it's tough to write an article called, let's say, "The Philosophical Tyranny of the African-American Agenda" and get it published in anywhere remotely credible.

However, very sadly, homophobia (along many other prejudices) is still pervasive in "mainstream conservatism", and if you google the above title with the word "homosexual" in the place of "African-American", then you'll find a link to Townhall. I hope you'll just take my word for that, and I'm definitely not going to provide a link, but I'm right.

Now, if you'd like to explain to everyone here why we should tolerate links to sites with this kind of garbage, I'm all ears. Please go ahead and explain how "tyrannical" the "homosexual agenda" is. Otherwise, how about we agree to keep links to Townhall and other bigoted websites away from DU. If there's a Tribune article, post the tribute article. I have no problem with that. But I do have a problem with Townhall.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

60. I'd say...

...that while there are some news sites more in keeping with liberal causes, indicting the news simply due to the source after the story has been verified by at a liberal friendly media outlet is flogging a dead horse. Get over it.

Continuing to stump here for townhall free links is rather non sequitur. Why not pursue this in GD, the lounge or H&M? Perhaps obfuscation is your game?





WAIT! Better make sure that doughnut isn't from a right wing baker.

[DanTex]

62. "there are some news sites more in keeping with liberal causes" = LOL

The whitewashing is strong in this one...

What I'm indicting is the practice of linking to Townhall. And so should you be.

For example, Townhall recently ran a story titled "Court ruling threatens NY gay 'marriage' law". Now, I imagine that they got some of their facts right -- I'm sure there was actually some court ruling -- but I'm also sure the story was anti-gay in its commentary and intonation, including the fact that "marriage" was put in quotes. If someone were to post that story here, I really hope you wouldn't try and defend it with the same BS about how "the story has been verified at a liberal friendly media outlet".

In the present case, the Townhall version of the story included right-wing commentary and conspiratorial allegations about how ATF agents were pushing for gun control. It was most certainly not simply a news story -- as I hope you're aware, you hardly ever get straight news from places like Townhall. Please stop playing dumb.

If people are going to be linking to right-wing sources, I'm going to point it out. And if nobody on the pro-gun side has the decency or honesty to condemn the right-wing links, then I'm going to point that out as well.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

63. "What I'm indicting is the practice of linking to Townhall."

Why? Do you think others here have the some perspicuity impairment?


I'm coming from the angle that facts are facts and that impugning the source because it's right wing, fox news or Hitler distracts from the topic. Repeated attempts to change the topic just look disingenuous but have a nice day.

[ileus]

8. This is good news...

[Hoyt]

17. Good news?

[E6-B]

20. Someone lied and 300 Mexicans and a Federal Agent Died

Yes it is the start of good news.

[Hoyt]

21. So you don't like Hispanics and/or border agents and/or ATF agents?

I'll wait for some more of your posts to see if you deserve a welcome to DU.

[X_Digger]

22. Do feel free to read again what was said.

You might even be able to connect it to the post you responded to without looking silly.

[div class='excerpt'] So you don't like Hispanics and/or border agents and/or ATF agents?

Here.. let me connect the dots in case you're having difficulty..

"Good news. ATF jerks starting to pay for Agent Terry murder."

" This is good news..."

You show confusion..

"Someone lied and 300 Mexicans and a Federal Agent Died"



A person with a grasp of the English language would understand that the poster thinks that it's a good thing that those responsible for the death of 300+ people is facing the consequences.

How you got from that series of posts to your inane assertion is beyond me.

[rl6214]

24. I feel the same way, are you going to call me a racists or a bigot also?

[Hoyt]

31. So far I have not seen you posting links to Townhall.com.

[rl6214]

33. and you won't BUT you didn't answer the question

[Hoyt]

40. I applaud the ATF for trying a sting to stop guns flowing to Mexico.

I don't have inherent disdain for them like so many here. Hell, most gunners here will run off at the keyboard in support of a compound living racist who was willing to sell illegal weapons to undercover agents -- Randy Weaver.

Stings go bad, it's what they do to correct things. They have indicted people and more will come. Fire those who made a mistake and then get back to work seeking out those who don't abide by gun laws and are willing to traffic in illegal weapons.

Again, I applaud the ATF's efforts just like the US Postal Service.

[beevul]

45. Revisionist history.

"Hell, most gunners here will run off at the keyboard in support of a compound living racist who was willing to sell illegal weapons to undercover agents -- Randy Weaver."

Thats quite a claim. Of course, that which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. You sit there and make the claims you do, without knowin or citing any of the facts involved in the claims you make, while those that do back up with they say with evidence, proof, and documentation, are "runing off at the keyboard in support of a compound living racist". Support of fact and truth, do not favor anything or anyone, except fact and truth, hoyt. Leave it to you to revise factual history and then claim otherwise.

And then theres the laughable part - "compound living". L A W L.





Really hoyt? A cabin in the woods is now a "compound"?

Is there anyone here besides hoyt that thinks that the actual cabin in the woods where it all took place - those are photos of it - is in any way a "compound" as hoyt uses, and all of us know, means by the word?




LOL.

"Stings go bad, it's what they do to correct things. They have indicted people and more will come. Fire those who made a mistake and then get back to work seeking out those who don't abide by gun laws and are willing to traffic in illegal weapons"

Stings, have mechanisms to make them work, and cooperating with other nations should other nations be geographically involved.

Fast and furious had none.

Those " indicted people" you mention, oddly enough, were only indicted AFTER fast and furious became public knowledge.

Lest you forget, Dodson had some of the suspects under surveilance for days, and was told NOT to apprehend, even though legally speaking, he had them dead to rights.

Things, like the way you characterize F&F as something it wasn't...something it could not have been, in fact,...is why you get labelled ATF apologist, hereabouts.

"Again, I applaud the ATF's efforts just like the US Postal Service."

If the US postal service were encouraging mail fraud would you support that?

[gejohnston]

46. if it were the DEA instead of the ATF

and the facts were the same, would you be saying "right on"? As it if it were a DEA sharp shooter that shot Mrs. Weaver or any other unarmed woman holding a baby would you be just as OK with that?

[Hoyt]

49. All accomplices on compound harboring an illegal gun trafficking racist who put them at risk.

[beevul]

51. Now you're saying weaver was a gun trafficker?

Cite please.

Oh, heres a picture of that "comound" for your viewing pleasure:




Sure looks like a compound to me. Not.

It must be nice when words take on whatever meaning you see fit to give them, rather than dictionary definitions:

Compound

1. A building or buildings, especially a residence or group of residences, set off and enclosed by a barrier.
2. An enclosed area used for confining prisoners of war.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/compound

See a large barrier around that cabin did ya?




Maybe you think grizzly adams lived in a "compound" too...


Harboring

2. To provide a place, home, or habitat for

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/harboring

Those in the "compound" could not have been "harboring" weaver, since it was weavers home.

Accomplice

A person who helps another in committing a crime

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/accomplices

Lets see, how did that go in court...hmm...let me think...oh yeah:






I dunno about you, but me? I'd be downright embarrassed to be seen in public uttering utterances that were so far removed from reality as to be 100 percent fictitious.

But hey, such practices made the gun control movement the mighty monolithic potent political force it is today, right?



Carry on soldier. keep fighting that culture war.




I know, I know...assault clips...and...theyre the choice of criminals and gangbangers...and the nra...and...and...50 bmg rifles will shoot down aircraft in flight...and are a danger to satellites...and...and...you love guns because your "lacking" below the waist...and...the nra...and...and...gun idolatry...and...yup...yup...and...lunatic asswipes...and...and...chuck norries TM...and...and...pistols in your pants...and...the nra...and...festooned with firearms...and...and...promenading publicly with guns...and...and...we need reasonable restrictions...and...republicans suck but republican paul helmke and sara brady are great...and...the nra...and...glock handguns aren't suited for hunting or self defense...and...and...FIFTY CALIBER TERROR...and...and...a well regulated militia...and...walter mitty wannabes...and...and...the nra...


On edit:

As an afterthought, I thought it would be worth pointing this out:

The feds entrap weaver, and you call him a gun trafficker...yet when the feds themselves DELIBERATELY traffick thousands of guns to a foreign nation, with no method or mechanism to track them, and the group supervisor is "giddy" about reports of those guns being used by cartels...you call it a "botched sting".

Says about all that needs saying, right there.

[Hoyt]

52. Yes, that pesky little thing about agreeing to sell altered shotgun to undercover agent.

Agent met at a "social" thrown by Aryan Nation.

[beevul]

53. Yeah, about that that assertion...

"Weaver was charged with multiple crimes relating to the Ruby Ridge incident, a total of ten counts including the original firearms charges and murder. Attorney Gerry Spence handled Weaver's defense, and argued successfully that Weaver's actions were justifiable as self-defense. The judge dismissed two counts after hearing prosecution witness testimony. The jury acquitted Weaver of all remaining charges except two, one of which the judge set aside. Weaver was found guilty of one count, failure to appear, for which Weaver was fined $10,000 and sentenced to 18 months in prison. The reason he failed to appear was because he was officially told the court case was on the 20th March when in fact it was on the 20th February. He was credited with time served plus an additional three months, and was then released. Kevin Harris was acquitted of all criminal charges"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Weaver

Huh, I guess you know more and better than courts of law.

Pesky little things like fact and truth...who needs em, right?

[Hoyt]

56. Oh God, the defenders of Randy Weaver are back.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

59. More like....

the people who prefer to deal in fact aren't letting you spread your fantasy unchallenged.

Besides, whether or not you agree with Weaver's choice to live as a separatist, at the end of the day, that was HIS choice. He did not ask the rest of the country to change to suit his ignorance and prejudices (unlike certain members of this forum), but rather, he made the effort at his expense to move to an environment in which he did not have to deal with people he did not like. That is his absolute right and honestly, anyone who supports individual rights and freedoms should support such a thing.

Weaver did nothing illegal. PERIOD. His wife and son were executed by government thugs who were ultimately never called to account for their actions.

[beevul]

73. Providing fact and disproving your fictions defends no one...

Providing fact and disproving your fictions defends no one.

It does serve to highlight your apparent level of interest in "good faith", and your preponderance to revising historical fact into hysterical fiction.

Think a minute hoyt. Really and truly think a minute.

Do you really think that posting things which are fictitious gets you or your views anywhere?

Do you really think that posting things which are fictitious isn't going to be noticed hereabouts?

Do you really think that posting things which are fictitious serves ths "pro control" side of the debate?



I'll step outside the debate for a minute, make this very plain, and against my better judgement, give you a few kind words of advice:

Every time you are proven wrong, it serves as an example to readers, which speaks to your credibility. The more examples you provide, the less weight well read posters of ANY view will give to your posts.

Oh sure, you can accuse me of "defending" weaver, but anyone reading knows full well that isn't the case. What I did, in posting what I posted, was prove you wrong, in a host of ways, and in doing so, crumble what little credibility you have left, just a little more.

The kicker is, I was able to because you opened the door for me.

Think long and hard about posting fictions like you have, because doing so only harms you.

Substituting fiction and hubris for fact and reason is not a winning strategy.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

54. Well except that...

...he wasn't actually convicted of anything...

But hey - why let facts get in the way?

[E6-B]

26. What I said, you your thinking.....

This is what I said:

Someone lied and 300 Mexicans and a Federal Agent died.

What your thinking:

Racism,bigot, and anti government.

BTW my father is not white.

[Union Scribe]

29. Hoyt you should apologize for calling a DUer racist

with absolutely no evidence for your smear.

[Hoyt]

32. I might have jumped a bit -- But when someone "new" links to townhall.com, you have to wonder.

It's not a Web site frequented by most here. But then I've seen some really surprising things over here in the gun forum.

[rl6214]

36. Yet you don't apologize

[E6-B]

42. Holder victim of racism...... Oh pleeeeeze....

“This is a way to get at the president because of the way I can be identified with him,” Holder said, according to the Times. “Both due to the nature of our relationship and, you know, the fact that we’re both African-American.”

http://www.theusreport.com/the-us-report/2011/12/19/embattled-ag-holder-plays-the-race-card-again.html

He is under scrutiny because he is incharge and his crew f-ed up.

[rl6214]

43. Agreed

[Hoyt]

57. At least they were trying to control gun trafficking and not out promoting more guns for everyone.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

61. Ends justify the means, eh?

So you're fine with government totally ignoring the law, acting with no regard for human life and killing people as long as it is done in the name of {insert cause you support here}?

Wow - well -as disgusting as that idea is, at least you're honest.

[rl6214]

72. Proof?

They didn't track them, they didn't have a system in place to track them, all they allowed them to do is be sold and walk across the border. I'd say that's a pretty big failure all across the board.

[oneshooter]

67. It seems that he likes the taste of his toes. n/t

[Simo 1939_1940]

71. Speaks volumes. NT

[SteveW]

64. I think it's OK to do that. In this group. nt

[Wistful Vista]

58. Do you have any wind triangles on yer face? haha

(This isn't any sort of insult, if you don't get the joke, it's because of a strange coincidence)

[friendly_iconoclast]

66. That, or he's from Renton, Washington...

[Wistful Vista]

68. Now it's my turn to be puzzled...

I can't make the connection!

[friendly_iconoclast]

69. Sorry, airplane geek joke:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-6_Mercury

Boeing E-6 Mercury

The Boeing E-6 Mercury (formerly E-6 Hermes) is an airborne command post and communications relay based on the Boeing 707-320....

Like the E-3 Sentry airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft, the E-6 is adapted from Boeing's 707-320 airliner. The first E-6 made its maiden flight from Boeing's Renton Factory on 19 February 1987, when it was flown to Boeing Field, Seattle, for fitment of mission avionics, being delivered to the Navy for testing on 22 July 1988. The E-6A, which was initially named Hermes, entered service with VQ-3 on 3 August 1989, with the second squadron, VQ-4 receiving its first E-6As in January 1991, allowing the EC-130Q to be phased on in June that year. The E-6A was renamed Mercury in Autumn 1991 by request of the US Navy. Sixteen were delivered up to 1992.

The E-6B is an upgrade to the E-6A....All 16 E-6A aircraft were modified to the E-6B standard...

[Wistful Vista]

70. Ohhhhhhh, well I guess I'm not as good as I thought on aviation trivia! :D

The E-6B "computer" was such a fixture for me when I was an active flight instructor 5 thousand years ago, it's what I immediately thought of. Thanks for the poop.