Gun control laws not seen as stopping "mass murders:"

[Eleanors38]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201207/mass-murders-are-the-rise

"I won’t bother to give examples of the numerous reports, studies and opinions. However, the gun laws are relatively unchanged over the last few decades. Over this time period, some states have stricter gun laws while others have become more relaxed. Regardless of how you feel about gun control in general, there is no correlation between gun control strictness and mass murder. For more see: Gun Control or Carry Permits Won't Stop Mass Murder."

That referenced article is here:

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-07-20/opinion/opinion_fox-mass-murder_1_gun-control-gun-rights-groups-gun-owners

"Tighter restrictions on gun purchasing -- for example, eliminating multiple gun sales and closing the gun-show loophole -- may help reduce America's gun violence problem generally, but mass murder is unlike most other forms of violent conflict.

"News: Shooting turns theater into surreal horror -- 'This is real'

"Mass killers are determined, deliberate and dead-set on murder. They plan methodically to execute their victims, finding the means no matter what laws or other impediments the state attempts to place in their way. To them, the will to kill cannot be denied.

"Mass shootings have been exploited just as effectively by pro-gun groups to promote legislation allowing ordinary citizens to carry concealed weapons in public places. Concealed-carry proponents suggest that an armed citizenry would deter criminals or at least reduce the death toll."


The writer holds out the possibility that "tighter restrictions... may help reduce America's gun violence...," though the Center for Disease Control "found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent outcomes. (Note that insufficient evidence to determine effectiveness should not be interpreted as evidence of ineffectiveness.)"

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

While Mass murder (defined by the FBI as four or more killings in one incident) has gone up somewhat, the numbers remain rather steady over the last few decades:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/dark-knight-shooting_n_1689505.html

Between 1980 and 2008, 4,685 people died in 965 mass-murders, a Scripps-Howard study of FBI data revealed. Despite recent headline-grabbing incidents -- such as Binghamton in 2009 and the Tucson shooting in 2011 that nearly killed for Rep. Gabrielle Giffords -- group murders have remained close to the average of 20 a year for decades, according to USA Today.

_______________
The remarkable thing about these articles is the rather uniform agreement that gun laws or the lack of them will have little or no effect on mass murders. There is considerable room for healthy debate about the phenomenon of modern mass murders since the latter part of the Twentieth Century; what causes them, who are the kind of people who commit such crimes, popular media influences, proper mental health treatment and interdiction, etc. But little debate as to the (in)effectiveness of "gun control" on these murders, and not much about whether there is a major trend upwards in this type of killing.

[bowens43]

1. So?

The fact is that the US has a per capita gun death rate that far exceeds that of any other non-third world nation. All this spinning won't change the FACT that the fewer guns available the few per capita gun deaths.

[Eleanors38]

2. Sorry, no "FACT." We have had periods of higher crime rates with fewer arms "available." nt

[oneshooter]

12. Do you activly support the Brady Campaign or the VPC?

And if you do then how much support do you give them?

[hack89]

23. Yet gun violence has plummeted as gun ownership has skyrocketed

how is this possible?

We have cut our murder rate in half in 30 years and it is still declining.

[ZombieHorde]

79. I imagine our culture and health-care system have more to do with that than

gun ownership.

[Berserker]

82. So

because we all know for a fact that all maniacs, criminals and nut jobs comply to all laws and taking away most all the guns would stop this madness. And the fewer guns available the fewer per capita gun deaths is out and out bullshit.
The government may be able to take the guns away from legal law abiding citizens such as myself but then what?
Will you have the military and cops patrol the streets killing all those who will not comply? Or do you think they will hand over their guns willingly.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

3. FACT

We have more guns per capita and more crime per capita to show for it.

[slackmaster]

4. You might be half right.

It's possible that there are more guns per capita, but there certainly isn't more crime per capita no matter how you define it.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012/june/crimes_061112/crimes_061112

[fightthegoodfightnow]

5. Statistical Comparison

Huh? What other countries were shown there? None.

We have more guns and more violent crime per capita with guns than any country in the world.

[BigAlanMac]

6. Two words in your statement make it logically meaningless

Those words are: "with guns".

States and/or countries with strict gun laws tend to have higher violent crime rates by all means than places that allow it's citizens to protect themselves with firearms.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

7. And That's Why Those Laws Exist

.

How are we doing to other nations?

[slackmaster]

8. You wrote "more guns" but didn't state what you were comparing our number of guns to

In the absence of another country I assumed you meant the comparison to be to our own country at a different time.

The OP doesn't say anything about comparisons to other countries. It's about the impact of gun control laws here.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

9. And How

Despite having more guns per capita than any other country, we are not less likely to have less violent crime.

So much for the theory that the easy access to guns reduces crime. It doesn't.

[GreenStormCloud]

11. Our violent crime rate is much less that numerous other countries.

Russia, Mexico, & UK all have greater violent crime rates. Russia and Mexico have higher murder rates than we do.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

16. Citation

.

[Clames]

13. So much for your theory that more guns = more crime.

That theory has been thoroughly debunked. Crime has been steadily decreasing for more than a decade and firearms in civilian hands have steadily increased over the same period.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

15. And Still You Cannot Dispute What I Said

Can you?

[Clames]

17. I disputed exactly what you said.

Taken as it is what you stated is in fact a lie and has been proven false numerous times. Sorry, you are not entitled to your own facts.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

18. Proven?????

LOL.

No need to apologize. I already know anyone can make a post and claim it's the truth.

Specifically, tell me the 'lie' you attribute to me.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

22. You Lie

...and have been proven so numerous times.

LOL...just kidding.....I know such claims is all you have to feel good about .....gosh.....what....yourself or .....your posts.

Reasonable people can disagree. Let me know when you are able to make a smart, articulate and reasoned but passionate argument for your position without personal animosity.

[Clames]

44. Post #3 is a flat out fib.

Reasonable people can support their positions without holding false statements as facts. You just plain can't do that

[fightthegoodfightnow]

45. Nah

I apologise. Maybe not completely accurate but closer to truth than your position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Look at the US and compare to Japan.

More guns....more gun deaths.

[gejohnston]

47. Japan isn't comparable

for a number of historical and cultural reasons. Even if Japan had the same gun laws as Vermont, the numbers would not be that much different. A few more people might shoot themselves instead of jump in front of trains, but the murder and suicide rates would remain the same.

Jamaica and Brazil have very strict gun laws, some place between UK and DC. While the Philippines has fewer gun deaths, but has a higher murder rate.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

48. And Yet

...the argument that US gun ownership diminishes and abates US gun deaths is simply not true.

[gejohnston]

53. no one said that

we simply point out the coincidence of gun sales and dropping murder and accident rates.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

65. And I point out

.....it's insignificant given how even with all those gun sales, violent deaths per capita from gun crimes puts us as one of the most dangerous populous countries to live.

[gejohnston]

80. not even close then

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

[hack89]

85. Nearly every Central and South American country is orders of magnitude more dangerous

Earlier, this year, a Mexican think tank — the Citizens' Council for Public Security and Criminal Justice — released a study ranking the world's most violent cities in 2011, and the results were astonishing.

The 20 most violent cities were all in Latin America.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world-2012-10?op=1#ixzz28zvAStPq

[Clames]

60. Nobody has made that argument...

...still a lie to continue saying so. Just because you believe in a lie doesn't mean anyone else will no matter how loud you shout it.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

62. Nonsense

The lie is the notion that gun advocates articulate that we are a safer society with more guns.

We are not.

Just because you believe in a lie doesn't mean anyone else will no matter how loud you shout it.

[Reasonable_Argument]

64. The FBI's

Crime statistics and record number of privately owned firearms would disagree. While you can't draw a straight line between the two, you can't deny that more guns haven't made us less safe.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

66. Compared to what country?

.

[Clames]

77. More bullshit.

Cite where that had been stated here. You can't? Just another anti-gunner lie then.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

51. Japan isn't Comparable

Right....it doesn't support your argument.

[gejohnston]

52. no

it has to do with living there, learning the culture, reading their literature, and their history.
I could say the same about Jamaica and Brazil

[Tuesday Afternoon]

54. kind of offensive tactic you are taking, duly noted.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

57. Reread

Reasonable people can disagree. Let me know when you are able to make a smart, articulate and reasoned but passionate argument for your position without personal animosity.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

58. reread your tone. you really think you are on moral high ground here?

your attittude seems to suggest otherwise. That people in here are taking the time to reply to you is more than you deserve. They choose to ignore your attitude and answer your content. I am here to say that I am not ignoring your attitude.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

63. Petty

You are doing what you accuse me of doing.

Anything about guns with or without your attitude?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

67. I make an observation and you call me petty? really? My posts in this group already speak for me.

Have a Nice Day.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

69. Got It

Nothing About Guns. Just as I thought.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

74. you got it? be careful that you don't get it like bupkus and Hoyt. I tell you what. Why don't I

nominate you to co-host with Krispos? Any seconds out there?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

76. Sounds Like You Want to Silence

....anyone who disagrees with you.

Keep it above board and articulate your arguments and beliefs about gun control and the RKBAs.

Making threats in code and soliciting support from like minded people diminishes you not me.

I hold no malice toward you and look forward to debating the issues rather than what you think should best be done with the likes of me.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

78. much better. I have no desire to silence anyone. I like civil discourse is all. When I read:

You Lie.

in a subject line I expect to see links, cites and quotes proving that assertion.

[Clames]

81. Another pseudo-intellectual who makes an assertion and can't back it up.

You are as obvious, predictable, and transparent as they get among anti-gun extremists...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

83. Right

Nothing about GUNS.

Just personal attacks.

Boring.

[Clames]

84. Good to see you don't deny your problems.

n/t

[fightthegoodfightnow]

86. My Problem? LOL

Same response from me to you:

Nothing about GUNS.

Just personal attacks.

Boring

.

[Clames]

98. Yup, proof you have nothing but failed arguments.

Those pearls you are clutching must be stinging your hands by now.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

99. I have no idea what you are talking about but I know it's not about guns and all about how you

....feel about me.

How sweet.

[Clames]

104. Talking to you about guns is a waste of time.

One cannot educate the willingly ignorant.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

105. Then Stop

Your insulting, sarcastic, one liners are so deep and compelling, they make any argument you make about guns (and you seldom do) seem irrelevant.

[Clames]

107. No.

Your poorly constructed Bradyisms define irrelevant. You haven't proposed anything original, thought provoking, or rational in any posts you've made in this group. Just the usual and highly predictable veiled insults hurled at gun owners in general that are common with your ilk. Reap what you sow and have a nice day.

[GreenStormCloud]

10. So you are not as dead if you are killed with a machete than if you are shot?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

14. Folks that get...

...shot dead are deader than folks that get stabbed to death but probably still not quite as dead as those that get blown up by a nuclear bomb....






....or maybe they are. Only the control folks have the answers, they have a monopoly on the truth.

...donchaknow...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

20. Again

Not a Single Country to Compare To.

[Eleanors38]

30. And not Saturn, either. Have another beer or...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

32. Right

....because you don't know the difference between the two.

[Eleanors38]

56. Standard illogic. Do you really care about gun control?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

59. Simple Answer

Yes

[Eleanors38]

68. Simple, not believeable. At any rate, carry on...

You do more good for 2A with your approach.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

70. Believe What You Want

I certainly do.

[oneshooter]

19. Do you activly support the Brady Campaign or the VPC?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

21. Support?

No.

I've never given one dime to Brady and I have no idea who VPC is.

I suspect that I agree with the Brady group more than you, but I am neither a financial supporter or member (assuming perhaps incorrectly they even have members).

[oneshooter]

72. Do you supply"moral support" for the ideas of the Brady camoaigne?

In other words do yo agree with and push for the ideas they foster.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

73. What is it with Brady?

I am not a member.

You have a specific question about a specific initiative of theirs...ask me.

Do you give 'moral support' to the criminal element by protecting their easy access to guns?

[oneshooter]

75. No. I want only to understand where you are coming from.

You seem to be more of an anti than anything else. At least to me.

You said that you support their ideas, yet do not actively support them by joining them or sending them funds.

I am slightly confused. If you support their ideas then why not help them?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

89. Supporter?

I am not a member or financial supporter of Brady and have no idea what VPC is.

Why?

[hack89]

25. And yet we have cut our violent crime rate in half since 1992 and it is still declining

even as gun ownership has increased. How do you explain this?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

27. Ever Heard of Homeland Security

.......how about cameras on every street corner in America?

What about those wireless phone taps without warrants?

Sh:t, you keep deluding yourself into thinking we have nothing in common.

You fear gov't intervention but turn your eye on big brother.

But heh, keep deluding yourself you have the power to change all that with your gun.

[hack89]

29. And FEMA concentration camps? What about them?

you sound like a paranoid freeper talking about Obama running a police state. Do you believe the UN is standing by to declare martial law?

I don't think we have a common understanding of America that allows us to continue this conversation.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

34. According to you ....and only you

What a crock. I support Obama.

[hack89]

36. Yet you think he runs a police state.

which means you think he does not support civil rights.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

37. Nah.....You Won't Find Me Saying That

When Obama approves every camera on every corner and every wireless tap, THEN I will agree.

How about putting words in your own mouth!

[hack89]

39. So he is a powerless puppet that can't protect my civil rights?

that is much better.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

40. Only According to Your Ridiculous Conclusions

....But heh, you believe what YOU want.

[hack89]

41. But we do live in a police state, right?

that is the reason we are safer?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

42. Is that what YOU think?????

Speak for yourself!!!!

[hack89]

43. You are the one going on about cameras and warrantless wiretaps making us safer.

sounds like a police state to me.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

46. Yawn

.

[hack89]

49. When you say things I have to assume you mean them.

I guess that may not be the case with you - your dislike for guns is emotional not rational.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

50. All That from that Post

LOL

[fightthegoodfightnow]

38. Well it's a Good Thing We Do NOT Need Guns to Overthrow Either

LOL.

[Eleanors38]

33. On second thought, have a few more...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

35. If I Do.....

...will it cause me to change my DU identity numerous times? LOL!

[Eleanors38]

55. You really should hire out to the NRA...

They LOVE your identity.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

61. Ok

Ok......if you say so.

Send them a letter. I'd love to take their money away from them.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

92. You Tell Me

Cameras on every corner?
Technology?
Better Law Enforcement?
Better Gun Control Laws?


PS - it's lower than 92 but it is not at the lowest level sense then.

[hack89]

96. More violent felons in jail

Because violent criminals are the real problem.

And yes, it is the lowest since 1992. Here are the numbers from 1991 to 2010. Look at the numbers on the bottom line - in every case it is the lowest number in the column. Look at the rates in particular - they are all significantly lower than 1992. We have a situation that even as the population grew the actual number of crimes dropped.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls

[4th law of robotics]

88. FACT

We have more Taco Bells per capita and more crime per capita to show for it.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

90. No Relationship

Guns to Crime- Related

Taco Bells to Crime - No Relationship

[4th law of robotics]

91. Yes there is, watch

Taco Bells to Crime- Related

Guns to Crime - No Relationship

You see? Just by claiming it I have made it true. There is not need to cite relevant studies that accounted for various key factors. Repetition is all it takes to make a statement true.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

93. Illogical

No foundation.

Tell me how many guns are introduced as evidence in murder trials?

Tell me how many Tacos from Taco Bell are introduced as evidence in murder trials?

[4th law of robotics]

94. You claimed there was a correlation based solely on the fact that

you claimed there was a correlation.

"I feel X must be true" is fine in philosophy class as the basis of an argument.

But it makes a poor substitute for stats.

Please show how more guns = more crime (statistically, not jut repeating your theory over and over again) especially in light of the fact that recent history has shown an increase in legally owned guns and decrease in crime.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

95. Nah

You first. How about answering my questions.

If you really think there is no relationship between crime and guns, then that diminishes one of the very reasons gun advocates argue the need for guns--to protect themselves from gun crimes.

You can't have it both ways.

[4th law of robotics]

97. You made the initial claim so it's up to me to post evidence? Huh?

If you really think there is no relationship between crime and guns, then that diminishes one of the very reasons gun advocates argue the need for guns--to protect themselves from gun crimes.

No positive correlation certainly.

And besides that simply shows that you misunderstand the argument. I don't have a gun so I can prevent all crimes everywhere. Or to help someone else not be the victim of a crime. I have a gun for me. For my own personal protection.

Besides, since when do you have to cite collective benefit for individual rights? What does your free speech do for me?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

102. So There is No Relationship Between You Owning a Gun

....saving your life from murder by a gun.


Got it.

[4th law of robotics]

103. Error

statement does not logically follow.


Perhaps you require calibration?

....saving your life from murder by a gun.

So I say I want a gun for my own protection and that proves to you that I am claiming a gun is useless for my own protection. As grabber arguments go that's one of the weirder ones. And I've heard them argue in earnest that crime is worse now because we have more guns even though overall we have a reduced crime rate.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

106. WTF

How many times should I post that I misspoke on saying someone was murdered.

Oh, Nevermind.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

24. And Neither is Having More Guns per Capita than Any Other Nation

.

[hack89]

26. We also have more violent drug gangs per capita

lets fix the real problem.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

28. Right

....and you think more guns than any nation in the world is going to do that because it's beyond your comprehension that your guns are the problem.

The war on terrorism starts at home.

[hack89]

31. My guns have never hurt a soul. Just like 99.999% of all gun owners.

you are not going to take away our guns.

So either move on to the real problem and deal with violent criminals or just give up.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

71. K&R. Thanks for a well researched OP.

[Eleanors38]

100. Thanks. Sorry for the late return. nt

[4th law of robotics]

87. These facts will make nary a dent in the ideological shield of the gun grabbers

Last edited Fri Oct 12, 2012, 12:29 AM - Edit history (1)

they are convinced of the Truth and so they won't let facts get in the way.

I've heard them argue, when corned by actual numbers, the maybe crime is down now but it's somehow worse because of guns. They won't define why it's worse but there you go.

Starting with a conclusion and manipulating/ignoring data to support that conclusion is the sign of a religion. You can't reason with a gun grabber using facts any more than you could with a cultist using facts.

[Eleanors38]

101. The two main ways to "defeat" your better-informed opponent:

(1) Talk over, through, around the argument, and pose an unrelated argument, then go to something else without engaging;

(2) Play bull-in-the-ring; that is, "take on" anyone who argues with you by any means necessary.
_____________
The former is the crap du jour of modern post-MSM debate, whether in person or on the Innertube. The latter is mostly what you see in this post (probably informed by a need for personal strength, superior "style" or some such). But it's not a bad drill in football!