Deputies shoot, kill man after knocking on wrong door

[Meiko]

Here we have a stickler. Cops knock on the door but do not identify themselves. Resident answers door with gun in hand pointed in the direction of the officers. The officers open fire and kill the man. The only problem is they have the wrong house and the wrong man. How are we going to deal with this one.

In the early morning hours, deputies knocked on 26-year-old Andrew Lee Scott's door without identifying themselves as law enforcement officers. Scott answered the door with a gun in his hand.

"When we knocked on the door, the door opened and the occupant of that apartment was pointing a gun at deputies and that's when we opened fire and killed him," Lt. John Herrell said.

Deputies thought they were confronting Jonathan Brown, a man accused of attempted murder. Brown was spotted at the Blueberry Hills Apartment complex and his motorcycle was parked across from Andrew Scott's front door.

"It's just a bizarre set of circumstances. The bottom line is, you point a gun at a deputy sheriff or police office, you're going to get shot," Herrell said.

Residents said the unannounced knock at the door at 1:30 a.m. may be the reason why the tragedy happened.

"He was the wrong guy and he got shot and killed anyway. There's fault on both sides. I think more so on the county," Ryan Perry said. "I can understand why he [the deputy] did it, but it should have never gone down like that," Perry said.

***COPS KILL INNOCENT MAN AT LINK***

Read more: http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/Deputies-shoot-kill-man-after-knocking-on-wrong-door/-/11788162/15527202/-/euk6tg/-/index.html#ixzz20nwRf7uA

[nichomachus]

1. Well, so much for stand your ground

If the person at the door had been a black teenagers who needed help and the guy shot him, the killer would be a conservative hero.

[Meiko]

17. Yea I know

the REAL story doesn't fit your agenda so you post what if's instead and try to disrupt the thread.

[nichomachus]

29. I have no idea

what the fuck you're talking about. What, pray tell, is my "agenda" and how have I disrupted the thread?

[gejohnston]

25. if the cops machine gunned a

running white 14 year old, they would be Hoyt's hero, so what's your point?

[nichomachus]

31. That IS my point

[gejohnston]

35. It is?

You might have missed mine.

[TheCowsCameHome]

2. Doesn't everyone open the door with a gun in one hand?

The other turns the knob.

[Meiko]

18. Depends on what

kind of neighborhood you live in I guess.

[PavePusher]

23. Doesn't everyone knock on stranger's doors at 0130 in the AM?

The other hand polishes... naaaaaah, never mind.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

30. Where's the verification that cops' story is true?

At most, we know that (1) the cops went to wrong door, (2) they shot an innocent man, (3) the man was a gun owner, and (4) the cops say (but apparently without corroboration of any independent witness) that he pointed a gun at them.

The guy is dead. He's not saying anything.

The cops say that he pointed a gun at them.

Is this likely? Probably not. But he did own a gun and he's no longer alive to contradict their story.

[Remmah2]

66. Speaking of knobs, did you read the article?

Guy inside the house shot no-one.

What part of "early morning hours" didn't you comprehend? I sure as hell would be suspicious of a knock at my door at "early morning hours".

[TheCowsCameHome]

70. That's because you're paranoid.

Are you afraid of the dark, too?

[Remmah2]

72. I'm only afraid of ignorant people.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

3. I guess that's what you get when you answer the door pointing a gun.

Who answers the door with a gun in their hand? Never mind. Forgot where I was.

[razorman]

6. Having a gun in hand is one thing. Actually pointing it is another.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

7. Having a gun in your hand when the cops are knocking on your door ain't too bright either.

[Meiko]

19. They didn't

identify themselves.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

21. That's why an inquiry as to "who's there" or a peek out the window next to the door ...

... would have made sense. Don't know if the door had a peep-hole.

I hear it time and again around these parts that a gun is a tool and not some magic shield inoculating the owner against all the evils in the world.

Seems to me, the decedent believed his gun inoculated him against ANYTHING on the other side of the door. Clearly he was wrong.

Even if you are 99% sure there is a bad guy on the other side of the door, why open it and expose yourself? Not knowing what is on the other side of the door you felt the need to answer with a gun in hand is plain stupid. In this case there really WAS someone on the other side with a weapon(s) pointed at the door and he walked right in to it. They had the drop on him as would any potential bad guy.

If you are so paranoid, concerned, or fearful of who is pounding on your door in the middle of the night, the LAST thing you should do is open in without ascertaining what or who is there. Gun or no gun.

Carrying a weapon is a big responsibility. That responsibility includes not brandishing at unknown people. Even on your own doorstep.

[permatex]

40. Nice

Let's blame the dead innocent gun owner, not the cops who fucked up royally.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

41. Maybe he's completely innocent maybe he isn't

Does Florida have a brandishing law?

I'll repeat what I said down-thread:

It is a very unfortunate accident. Tragic accidents such as this usually require more than one fuck up to lead to such a dreadful outcome.

If and when this ends up in a wrongful death case, I wouldn't be opposed to a settlement/judgment based on partial negligence by the cops and partial blame on the victim. A criminal charge against the cops? No.

[gejohnston]

42. yes it does

It is a felony IIRC. Although I don't know if that covers this.

[permatex]

43. Not in your own home, you can brandish a gun in your own home, not in public unless you have a damn

good reason. It seems your trying to excuse the cops. If I'm wrong, then I'm sorry.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

45. Nah. I'm saying it's probably about 60/40 with the cops being 60% liable.

[permatex]

46. I can agree with that

All in all, it was an avoidable tragedy.

[CreekDog]

51. I was working at night at a university and police didn't identify themselves when I asked them

I was working in a lab on campus, but there was no way to see out the window. I heard pounding on the door and loud voices yelling "let us in". And I asked who it was and they said "let us in!!!".

Finally I said, "I'm not letting you in if I don't know who you are" (cue the Brady Bunch episode...)

Then they finally said they were the police and I opened the door --unarmed of course.

I couldn't believe the interaction.

Like a lot of grad students, I had no choice but to work late on campus, I had a pass to be there at night a key to the building, I was an employee of the university too, the campus police had a list of people authorized to be in that room after hours and I was on it, etc. etc.

The experience rattled me, the way they acted made it seem like something was seriously wrong.

For the first time, it made me feel less safe when they were around, whereas before that, I felt some comfort knowing they were on patrol at night there. Afterwards, a small part of my mind made me just a little weary thinking, "jeez, they treated me like I was a criminal, am I really safer if they think I am one?"

And my last school advisor, at the previous school, where also had to work overnight, and we had permission, were on lists, yadda yadda, but the head of the department warned us,

"you have permission to use this room at night, that's why you're given keys and you're on a list with the campus police"

"but sometimes our students are treated badly by the police, if that happens, remember not to argue with people that have guns."

it's a shame. because these interactions reduce the chances that a student working late at night who sees something odd or out of place, will contact the police. it's counterproductive.

and the other shame of it is that i know police officers, who are nothing like this, and these interactions make their jobs harder, even though they are great people, often quiet and unassuming.

i think some paramilitary emphasis and outlook amongst some officers is inappropriate in a civilian setting, but it is becoming more and more common.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

55. Unfortunately, I have been having way too much interaction with Chicago's finest...

... over my neighbor's faulty burglar alarm she refuses to have repaired.

They have been mostly friendly but I fear for my dog as we share a common condo yard and I'm afraid some trigger happy asshole will shoot my dog for barking at them. My dog doesn't (hasn't) bite, but being a Shar Pei mix, she likes to challenge.

I've answered the cops on at least 3 occasions in the last year.

Once to let them in while I turned the alarm off (I have a key). They went through the house guns drawn even though I told them the alarm was broken. Funny story: The cops asked me to look in the condo to tell them if the place was robbed or the people "live this way" - meaning messy. Her boyfriend left the video game junk and controllers all over the floor. LOL

Another time I was surprised by four coppers coming around the back gate. I was carrying an 80 pound bag of concrete on my shoulder for my un-permitted bathroom renovation. "Doing a little work?" they asked. "Uh oh, I'm fucked. Since when do cops check permits?" I thought. Nope. They were there for THE ALARM. I scurried in to the basement pulling doors and gates shut behind me.

The last time the cop was frantically hitting all the buzzers in the building. I went down to see what the fuss was. THE ALARM again. I let him in and he proceeded to pound on her door. She was home. He made some weird comment that he busses all the buzzers because sometimes neighbors rob each other - whatever THAT means. My neighbor had the nerve to complain later that the cop was rude to her.

We really need to have a word with her before something bad happens.

[razorman]

48. That was one thing that I was not clear about.

If I get an unexpected late-night knock on the door, I will be armed while answering it, too. I don't think I would be foolish enough to point it, though. At least not until a threat had been identified.

[Spoonman]

9. Who answers the door with a gun in their hand?

At 1:30 in the morning, everyone with any brains!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

10. I prefer the peep hole. Absent an available peep hole, a loud "who is it?" will suffice.

Or even a peek through the window will work.

[Callisto32]

15. Right, you use the peephole to make sure you don't need the gun.

Easy-peasy.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

16. In his case, a peek out the widow to see a cop car and cops on his doorstep would have been prudent.

[Clames]

22. Assuming he had a peep hole, assuming they weren't in plain clothes, assuming the car can be seen...

...from the door by the resident. Lots of assumptions and no real thinking involved.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

26. First off, I said peek out the window.

I didn't say peep hole. So not much reading OR thinking on your part.

You know, the window right next door to the door. Again, you appear to be a little slow on the uptake so I will cut you some slack. It was in the video.

Final clue. I've never known cops to go on a raid without at least badges around neck in the event they are P/C. Most likely they would have jackets. So let's deal in reality here.

The nice thing about DU3 is you have unlimited time to edit your post or delete your post or removes your "eyes" smiley as to not look the fool in perpetuity. Your call.

[gejohnston]

28. I take it you don't live in Florida?

No they don't. Most plain clothes I have seen here open carry their pistols with the badge on their belts. St Petersburg cops, last time I was there, will have green T shirts that say "police".

Oh, then there is Laval, Quebec
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Parasiris

[Clames]

50. Keep assuming...

...and you'll keep looking like you don't have a clue..

What makes you think there was a window near the door? This is an apartment, not a house remember. Most apartment the door opens onto a breezeway adjoining the other apartments so there isn't a window at all near the door. Good thing you are aware of the editing function because you have a lot of work to do...



Reality. Keep looking for it.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

52. Watch the video. They're individual bungalow/duplex apartments with their own sep. entrance..

You can see in to the unit when the door opens.

See the unit number next to the door? See how it doesn't say "unit 114 through ..... something"? No, it says unit 114.

See the little fenced in patio the units have? Yes?

Friendly advice: Stop digging

[KansDem]

32. I believe Mr. Chamberlain asked "Who is it?"

As the Trayvon Martin case draws national attention, we look at another fatal shooting of an African-American male that has received far less scrutiny. Kenneth Chamberlain Sr., a 68-year-old African-American Marine veteran, was fatally shot in November by White Plains, NY, police who responded to a false alarm from his medical alert pendant. The officers broke down Chamberlain’s door, tasered him, and then shot him dead. Audio of the entire incident was recorded by the medical alert device in Chamberlain’s apartment. We’re joined by family attorneys and Chamberlain’s son, Kenneth Chamberlain Jr., who struggles through tears to recount his father’s final moments, including the way police officers mocked his father’s past as a marine. "For them to look at my father that way, (with) no regard for his life, every morning I think about it," he says.

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/3/29/killed_at_home_white_plains_ny

[mvccd1000]

54. What a frustrating and infuriating story

It's stories like these that give police a bad reputation. (Well-deserved, for the particular officers in this instance: create a situation, escalate it, and then become "judge, jury, and executioner." Wonder where George Zimmerman learned his tactics?)

[razorman]

49. "Release the hounds!"

[frylock]

34. ever been rousted from your bed at one-fucking-thirty in the AM?

i guess the crime rate in one's neighborhood may also dictate how one answers an unsolicited knock at the door at 0130.

[ileus]

4. gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette.

always answer the door with your pistol behind your back....You never know when it's gonna be a cop or the COO of your wife's clinic.

[Enrique]

5. "point your gun at a deputy, you're going to get shot"

but the guy didn't do that, he didn't know who was at the door.

[Wilms]

8. If I heard 'knock-knock', I'd have said "who's there?".

But that's just me.

[cpamomfromtexas]

11. My friend was expecting his druggy son, told him get out of here rick, now he's in jail.

[sarisataka]

12. So the police are in the wrong

when they arrest protesters writing on the side walk with chalk but...

they knock on a door because of a motorcycle parked in front of it, not identifying themselves, and then shoot the occupant to death and that is ok.
After all it was the victims fault for carrying a gun when answering the door when someone was pounding on it at 1:30.

Before the police-apologists start screaming how do I know they pounded. I can relate from experience.
Several years ago I lived in an apartment and someone called reporting a woman screaming. I was woken by a pounding that shook the whole wall of the apartment. I went to the door, with a gun, and looked out the peephole. I could see no one but did notice a shadow on the floor.
Here is where I deviated from the person in the story..
I asked who was out there and only then did they identify themselves as police. I opened the door, chain in place to check the id. There were two officers, out of sight on each side of the door. Once identified, I let them in, but first I placed the pistol on a table four feet from the door and after opening the door informed the officers where it was and that it was loaded.
One officer asked if I always answer my door with a loaded gun.
"When someone is pounding on my door in the middle of the night I do"
His partner replied, "Can't argue with that"

[Hassin Bin Sober]

20. I don't think anyone is saying it's "ok"

It is a very unfortunate accident. Tragic accidents such as this usually require more than one fuck up to lead to such a dreadful outcome.

If and when this ends up in a wrongful death case, I wouldn't be opposed to a settlement/judgment based on partial negligence by the cops and partial blame on the victim. A criminal charge against the cops? No.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

33. No one "is saying it's 'ok' "? Yes they are, and on this thread. The cops' unverified story is

being accepted as true without any independent witnesses or other evidence.

[sarisataka]

36. I see several posts that are basically...

"if you are so paranoid to go to the door with a gun you can expect to be shot"... begging the question are you actually paranoid?

I do not disagree, answering the door by pointing a gun out it is a very bad idea.

And to play devil's advocate I will compare this to an on-going case where we have a shooter's side to the story and the other side is dead so cannot contradict. I am not calling for an indictment but believe this case is worthy of independent investigation.

[spin]

58. I agree but there are methods to answer the door while armed without scaring anyone ...

I answer the door with a snub nosed revolver in my pocket and my hand on it.

If you use a much larger handgun such as a .45 auto, you cover the weapon with a newspaper or a magazine when you open the door. If you allow the person to enter, you just lay the weapon on a table with with newspaper covering it.

I've used both techniques and never scared anyone who knocked at my door. That includes two times when the police were on the other side.

Obviously answering a knock with a visible weapon in your hand is a poor idea. Being prepared for a potential home invasion will rarely prove necessary but if it is and you are prepared you might survive with out injury or avoid ending up in a grave.

[permatex]

62. Execellent advice

If there is a knock on my door late night/early morning, I'll go to the door with a gun but I won't answer it until I see some credentials, if it's LE, I'll first put my gun in a nightstand we have in our entranceway and then open the door but keep the storm door closed and locked, if it's anyone else that I don't know, the door stays closed and locked and 911 will be called.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

69. The only time I felt the need to arm myself, I covered my 9mm with a towel.

It was over one of the holidays, Christmas day I think, and everyone in the building was gone but me and the boyfriend.

We heard a loud bang and what sounded like footsteps in our downstairs neighbor's condo. I have keys to all the units - We're a pretty tight-nit condo and we are all friends - so we investigated that unit and the one directly below (it's a six flat).

Didn't feel the need to call the police but we (and the dog) checked it out. I left the gun under the towel in case someone came home early or whatever - didn't want to scare the shit out of anyone.

[sarisataka]

73. Dogs are great backup

When checking a knock or bump in the night.

My fat old wiener dog is not a threat to anyone but his nose and bark still work fine.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

74. I think Weiner dogs are bred to ferret out varmints. No? That scrappy bark will do the trick.

My Shar Pei mix is pretty tough lookin' and she LOVES to go on "missions" whether ii be chasing off squirrels or investigating a noise. She'll take the lead and let out a low 'woof' as sort of a challenge.

She's only about 45lbs. but she has a square head so she can seem pitbull-ish to some people.

Last year, she scared the piss out my neighbor's visiting boyfriend. He's a Vegas cop - a big burly guy. I was on the third floor trying to warn him the dog was in the yard and to not worry but he had an I-Pod on and couldn't hear me and didn't look up to see me waving my arms. He opened the back gate and saw her barreling down the sidewalk. He slammed the gate shut REAL fast and then stood there with a 'now what the f-ck do I do?' look. After he finally looked up and I told him it was OK he was like 'nice guard dog!'

[sarisataka]

77. Dachshund translates to Badger Hound

that is why they are stubborn and can be hard to train. They are also very loyal and afraid of nothing.

Nice sweetie you have there

[GreenStormCloud]

13. Gun owner did something stupid.

If you are going to keep a gun for home defense you need to learn more than just how to shoot it. You need to learn how not to accidentally scare people with it.

Have a peephole in the door and a light outside the door that is controlled from inside.

Look through the peephole first.

If you then decide to open the door have the gun out of sight.

[Hoyt]

24. Gotta agree. Although, I hate looking through peepholes. Afraid someone will poke my eye out.

[GreenStormCloud]

37. Install a lens. My door peephole has a lens that give me 170 degree field of view. N/T

[Hoyt]

38. I think if the person on the other side sees light through peephole, then no light -- they know you

are looking out. I think it goes back to a movie I saw when young called something like "Horrors of the Black Museum." This guy looks into a pair of binoculars that have been rigged with spring loaded prongs that poked his eye out. Don't look through holes in the fence at baseball fields either.

But, I guess if you look quickly.

[gejohnston]

39. Keep your inside lights off

but have the outside lights on.

[GreenStormCloud]

59. I don't have that kind of weird paranoia.

Besides, you can solve the light problem by having the inside light off if it really worries you.

[Hoyt]

60. Yet you have to carry a gun to go outside. Talk about weird paranoia.

[permatex]

63. Easier to conceal than

say, a can of beans or a bicycle tire.
You don't like concealed carry, we get it, but until laws are changed, and there is no indication that will happen anytime soon, learn to live with it and stop dithering over it.
Just some sound advice.

[Tejas]

65. Revolving door for criminals, so duh, no-brainer.

And anti's are too busy crucifying law-abiding gunowners here at the DU and taunting them with labels such as "cowards" and "barrel-stroking freaks".

[sarisataka]

68. Strange... I actually can understand...

I am not worried about spring loaded prongs, although I like the idea, but if someone with very bad intentions is waiting to shoot through the door.
If you cannot avoid having light showing, then first stand to the side of the door and cover the hole with your hand for a few seconds. If nothing happens, go ahead and take a look.

[oneshooter]

75. I have a small camera at both front and back porches.

Not tied to a computer but to a dedicated screen in the main room.

[Remmah2]

67. Damn it.

Stop it with this common sense stuff.

[Callisto32]

14. Cops issuing no-knocks...

burglar/robbers yelling "POLICE!"

How the hell is a decent person supposed to know who the hell is actually barging through his door unbidden in the middle of that not-so-good night?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

27. Do we have to take the word of the Police on this issue? Or is it possible that the police killed

an innocent man and, instead of using a "drop gun," searched his place, found a gun, and then used it as justification?

Are there any independent witnesses who can verify what the police said?

In the absence of independent witnesses, why would anyone believe the cops' version?

[Meiko]

44. You could be 100% correct and we will never know

cops cover for each other, this is a fact and since there are no other witnesses it would be very easy for them to make up the entire story. The shooting will be loosely investigated by other cops who are probably friends with the shooters...outcome? One innocent man dead and two murderers with badges walk free...works for me.

[spin]

47. I've answered the door and found a cop standing there and I was armed. ...

I had my trusty .38 caliber snub nosed revolver in my pants pocket.

The officer never had any idea that I was armed.

[bakpakr]

53. Cops and door peepholes

Police are trained not to stand directly in-front of a door they are banging on due to the fact that some individuals will shoot through the door in an attempt to kill the officer. They are taught to stand to the side. Thus negating the peephole view.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

56. I would think that the prudent action for both the cops AND the guy so fearful he ...

.... feels he needs a gun in hand to open the door. Besides, there is a window next to the door.

[spin]

57. Much depends on the neighborhood you live in ...

When I lived in the Tampa Bay area the neighborhood I lived in was marginal at the best. When I bought the house it was an upscale area but 35 years later times had changed. I decided to wait until I retired before I sold my house.

I never really had any great fear in opening the door which in my case had no window next to it. However when someone banged on my door late at night, I liked to be careful. Consequently I had a snub nosed revolver in my pants pocket.

I never scared anyone who was knocking on my door but I would have had the ability to protect myself if truly necessary which while unlikely was not impossible.

[GreenStormCloud]

61. My peephole lens has a 170 degree field of view. N/T

[permatex]

64. My peephole is one of those fisheye types

I can see my whole front porch and anything to the sides of it.

[Tejas]

71. But this officer went home safe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Aiyana_Jones

[darkangel218]

76. Cops in FL are weird :/

I do have respect for law enforcement overall but it is getting ridiculous down here in FL