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[Tuesday Afternoon]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Tuesday Afternoon) on Sun Jul 1, 2012, 06:38 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[liberal N proud]

1. A government mandate requires gun ownership in Switzerland

Imagine that!

Some of the same groups decying the insurance mandate would support this one.

[gejohnston]

2. the Swiss government issues the guns

for defense. The number does not count the several million personally owned and purchased firearms.
the Militia Act of 1792 in the US mandated you buy your own gun.

[-..__...]

3. "REGISTERED" guns?

That's one title where being dead last should be the desirable/preferred goal.

[enough]

4. Men only? (nt)

[gejohnston]

5. those who are drafted.

The article are about those who are drafted into the Swiss part time army, and they keep their assault rifles or pistol at home. The Swiss draft only men. Until you retire from the militia, the guns are property of the Swiss government. Once you retire, the gun is yours. Of course, the number does not include privately purchased and owned guns. Those number about two or three million. They are owned by men and women.

[TheWraith]

12. If I recall, you have to purchase your gun when you muster out.

They don't just get to keep them automatically, it's an optional extra fee.

[gejohnston]

13. I don't know about pistols but

IIRC, you pay the unit armor something like ten bucks to make the rifles semi auto only.

[NewMoonTherian]

15. I do not require that service. I'll just keep the gun as-is. Thanks!

Maybe that wouldn't go over so well?

[JohnnyRingo]

6. I hope they trained them to somehow shoot down drones in midair.

Then of course they have to find ammunition that is effective on armoured personel carriers and train their small population on the Galaga video game to take out multiple targets with unlimited ammo. If all else fails, the Swiss can use the rifles to end the anguish of radiation poisoning.

Actually, this Swiss requirement is a quaint throwback to a simpler time when soldiers moved enmasse and on foot. Today, the best defence the Swiss people have is a banker armed with a state-of-the-art laptop and a wi-fi connection, and they know it.

Times have changed over the centuries, and the next ruler of the Earth will be an economic superpower, not merely an up-armed Roman legion. The Swiss are rich in silly tradition, and giving their populace rifles to prevent invasion is as antiquated as the uniforms worn by the Vatican guard.

I'm not anti-gun, far from it, but the Swiss are not independently free because of a supply of bolt action Mausers.

[gejohnston]

7. they are not bolt action Mausers

and they do have a modern military, just not a standing army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland

It is more accurate to say a 14 year old with a lap top can replace strategic bombing than ground forces.

[sarisataka]

8. Some friends went to Switzerland

when they were stationed in Germany. They wanted to tour and also do an informal recon to see how much of the Swiss military and defense was myth.

To their trained eyes, what they determined was the Swiss are underrated if anything. They spotted disguised bunkers, artillery markers and many other defenses that to a tourist appear as part of the scenery. Since the Swiss use a militia, they estimated the reaction time to begin manning defenses at under a half hour and to full strength, within 24 hours.

This was during the Reagan era of the cold war so their interest was in how secure would the southern flank be in the event of Soviet invasion. They felt any Soviet forces trying to pass through Swiss territory would be hopelessly tied up and unable to pass into NATO rear areas.

[-..__...]

9. Look even harder...

any foreign military better think twice before invading Switzerland's for it's chocolate, cheese and cuckoo clock industries...

To make a long story short, McPhee describes two things: how Switzerland requires military service from every able-bodied male Swiss citizen—a model later emulated and expanded by Israel—and how the Swiss military has, in effect, wired the entire country to blow in the event of foreign invasion. To keep enemy armies out, bridges will be dynamited and, whenever possible, deliberately collapsed onto other roads and bridges below; hills have been weaponized to be activated as valley-sweeping artificial landslides; mountain tunnels will be sealed from within to act as nuclear-proof air raid shelters; and much more.

First, a quick look at the system of self-demolition that is literally built into the Swiss national infrastructure:

To interrupt the utility of bridges, tunnels, highways, railroads, Switzerland has established three thousand points of demolition. That is the number officially printed. It has been suggested to me that to approximate a true figure a reader ought to multiply by two. Where a highway bridge crosses a railroad, a segment of the bridge is programmed to drop on the railroad. Primacord fuses are built into the bridge. Hidden artillery is in place on either side, set to prevent the enemy from clearing or repairing the damage.

Further:

Near the German border of Switzerland, every railroad and highway tunnel has been prepared to pinch shut explosively. Nearby mountains have been made so porous that whole divisions can fit inside them. There are weapons and soldiers under barns. There are cannons inside pretty houses. Where Swiss highways happen to run on narrow ground between the edges of lakes and to the bottoms of cliffs, man-made rockslides are ready to slide.

The impending self-demolition of the country is "routinely practiced," McPhee writes. "Often, in such assignments, the civilian engineer who created the bridge will, in his capacity as a military officer, be given the task of planning its destruction."

http://bldgblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/various-forms-of-lithic-disguise.html

[sarisataka]

10. I wasn't aware that was public knowledge

I always try to err on the side of caution on things I "don't" know.

Switzerland would be one tough nut to crack; and when finished, not worth having.

[JohnnyRingo]

21. I was using the "Mauser" reference merely as a vehicle to make my point

When it comes down to it, and a modern military superpower is invading one's borders, it doesn't much matter if untrained citizens are holding blunderbusses or CAR15s. They can only present themselves as an irritating nuisance to the offensive force, much like we experienced in Iraq.

Needless to say, the modern army in Switzerland would be the primary focus in the opening days of a hypothetical attack, and likely suffer poorly. After that, the mettle of the citizen militia would be tested in a disadvantaged battle of attrition.

Fortunately for the Swiss, I don't see any way this scenario could ever play out, so requiring their people to own rifles to guard against invasion is purely an academic exercise that makes some sort of toothless statement of national pride and perseverance. There is no sensible application for doing so.

It's the classic story of "The Mouse That Roared" in that Switzerland knows their might does not lie in an actual arsenal of weapons, but in the cunning and guile of their accountants.

[gejohnston]

22. the modern army of Switzerland is a select militia

kind of like the National Guard before DoD's total force policies. All members of the militia are trained and are armed with modern weapons. The active duty is actually quite small. The idea is to put on your uniform and weapon to report to your unit for orders, climb in your tank, launch F-18s, not go off in the mountains to play Red Dawn.

I'm guessing you don't quite understand how asymmetric warfare works.

Accountants nothing, any 14 year old with the right hacking skills can do more damage to a country's ability to sustain a war than several wings of strategic bombers. High tech toys like the B2 are vulnerable to cyber attacks.

[JohnnyRingo]

26. Yeah, this is just way over my head.

Until you came along there's been a terrible dearth of elite military strategists on DU.

...And thanks for schooling me on the expanded capabilties of 14 year old computer nerds. Maybe the Swiss should require it's citizens to own a Dell laptop and know how to use it instead of rifles.

[Mr Rogers]

11. Usa is not registeres

Not all states or locals require gun registration in the USA. Concealed carry is permitted in 48 states so far. The Swiss can not.

[Hoyt]

14. Hope you are more discerning if you decide to shoot someone, almost no one can tote in Switzerland.

The guns have to stay locked in citizen's homes unless one can qualify for a license to carry which is almost impossible to get.

Switzerland is a model for where we should be headed.

[NewMoonTherian]

16. Why? We're already lightyears ahead of them...

in terms of gun rights. Why go back to the dark ages?

All that integral defense infrastructure might be worth emulating, though.

[Hoyt]

18. Well, in Switzerland and most of civilized world, "gun rights" are not really viewed as important.

It's only here in America where the NRA, T-Party, militias, compound dwellers, bigots and a few misguided otherwise decent people, need guns to function and enjoy life.

Shoot, even the tough Australians and Canadians know that.

[NewMoonTherian]

19. Is that a good thing?

And is it a bad thing to view gun rights as important? Why should the U.S. follow suit with the rest of the world? I'm quite proud that we recognize the human right of self-preservation. It seems to me that we know something everyone else doesn't. Or, rather, our founders did. Citizens of other nations know, but there's nothing they can do about it now.

[Hoyt]

20. I think like health care, true civil rights, greed, war, etc., we are behind civilized world

with respect to guns.

[NewMoonTherian]

24. And I sharply disagree with you.

But I'm glad that we can disagree and still have, more or less, a civil discussion on the topic.

[gejohnston]

17. given Switzerland's low crime rate,

I doubt anyone thinks about it. That said, it is probably easier to get a CCW there than DC, NYC (if you a are a 99 percenter) or Illinois.

[Hoyt]

25. Your OP says "gun toting". I replied to that incorrect statement.

In any event, do you have a link to where you told me "you do not toters. "

[Hoyt]

28. "Gun toting" is used in first line of OP message text -- Making post incorrect.

Very few Swiss tote.

[Hoyt]

30. Don't post inaccuracies, and I'll have no reason to post to you.

Thanks for being honest.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. deleting due to confusion about SoP inre: this post in Meta

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240118034