Fri Mar 23, 2012, 10:25 AM
virginia mountainman (5,046 posts)
Why Gun Control advocates will end up with egg on their face once again...
Lots of pure BS has been spewing forth from the expected sources since this terrible murder of the young man in Sanford. From all the information I have gathered (which is from MSM), their is almost NO WAY the Florida Castle Doctrine can apply to this situation. Yes, he can claim it, but it will offer no defense... Especially with him chasing the man down and gunning him down in the street.
When you are chasing your "assailant" you are quite obviously not in fear for your life. Mr Neighborhood watch captain is in very hot water. I fully expect him to serve time in prison when all is said and done. Don't believe me? Here is the statute so you can read it for yourself. So if anyone spouts BS about the law, expect for someone to point out that you clearly did not read it. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html The real issue here is WHY the Police did not arrest him on the spot. When they say the Castle law won't let them, they CLEARLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE LAW... Read if for yourself.... It clearly does not apply in this situation.. Just because Florida law, does not require you to retreat, it DOES NOT allow you to pursue and kill. That being said, all the gun control advocates are giddy, and think this is a turning point in their movement, LOL. Time for a reality check. I took this photo a while back at a grocery store's magazine rack... This photo shows the entire rack.. If you look closely their is about 17 different publications dedicated to firearms...And not a single "gun control monthly" in sight. They would not be for sale, if their was not a demand. ![]() As much as they may hate it, firearms, are truly mainstream and all the wishing in the world will not change that, and the harder they push, the more we win, The only backlash I can see started in 1994 and it's still going on. Calls for Gun Control tend to be answered with even LESS gun control, this tends to happen when a vocal minority starts screaming for legislation that a much larger and highly motivated group utterly hates, and the larger group is more than willing to open their wallets, and get in touch with their legislators and remind them of that fact.....So, call away....It helps your opposition win. Problem is, it tends to be the REPUBLICANS that stand to gain from the calls, and we all pay the price.
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137 replies, 21590 views
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Author | Time | Post |
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virginia mountainman | Mar 2012 | OP |
bowens43 | Mar 2012 | #1 | |
movonne | Mar 2012 | #2 | |
shadowrider | Mar 2012 | #3 | |
era veteran | Mar 2012 | #15 | |
Atypical Liberal | Mar 2012 | #4 | |
X_Digger | Mar 2012 | #44 | |
one-eyed fat man | Mar 2012 | #5 | |
Upton | Mar 2012 | #7 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #9 | |
orwell | Mar 2012 | #22 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #23 | |
safeinOhio | Mar 2012 | #26 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #32 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #33 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #35 | |
safeinOhio | Mar 2012 | #76 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #36 | |
safeinOhio | Mar 2012 | #77 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #37 | |
safeinOhio | Mar 2012 | #71 | |
Hoyt | Mar 2012 | #78 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #80 | |
Hoyt | Mar 2012 | #81 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #83 | |
iverglas | Mar 2012 | #107 | |
X_Digger | Mar 2012 | #41 | |
friendly_iconoclast | Mar 2012 | #53 | |
rl6214 | Mar 2012 | #119 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #6 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #10 | |
Johnny Rico | Mar 2012 | #12 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #13 | |
Johnny Rico | Mar 2012 | #19 | |
Clames | Mar 2012 | #20 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #27 | |
DonP | Mar 2012 | #39 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #42 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #52 | |
iverglas | Mar 2012 | #108 | |
Dr_Scholl | Mar 2012 | #109 | |
sarisataka | Mar 2012 | #110 | |
iverglas | Mar 2012 | #111 | |
gejohnston | Mar 2012 | #112 | |
iverglas | Mar 2012 | #131 | |
sarisataka | Mar 2012 | #114 | |
iverglas | Mar 2012 | #132 | |
AtheistCrusader | Mar 2012 | #137 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #117 | |
DonP | Mar 2012 | #75 | |
Callisto32 | Mar 2012 | #95 | |
krispos42 | Mar 2012 | #30 | |
iverglas | Mar 2012 | #133 | |
rrneck | Mar 2012 | #21 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #29 | |
rrneck | Mar 2012 | #34 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #93 | |
Callisto32 | Mar 2012 | #96 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #100 | |
Oneka | Mar 2012 | #116 | |
rrneck | Mar 2012 | #105 | |
mazzarro | Mar 2012 | #8 | |
spin | Mar 2012 | #49 | |
ileus | Mar 2012 | #11 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #14 | |
era veteran | Mar 2012 | #16 | |
Pacafishmate | Mar 2012 | #17 | |
Hoyt | Mar 2012 | #84 | |
Pacafishmate | Mar 2012 | #134 | |
Hoyt | Mar 2012 | #135 | |
Clames | Mar 2012 | #18 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #28 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #38 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #45 | |
hack89 | Mar 2012 | #51 | |
beevul | Mar 2012 | #54 | |
beevul | Mar 2012 | #43 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #47 | |
beevul | Mar 2012 | #48 | |
Oneka | Mar 2012 | #118 | |
rl6214 | Mar 2012 | #120 | |
X_Digger | Mar 2012 | #46 | |
ileus | Mar 2012 | #50 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #94 | |
Callisto32 | Mar 2012 | #97 | |
Loudly | Mar 2012 | #101 | |
HockeyMom | Mar 2012 | #24 | |
shadowrider | Mar 2012 | #31 | |
HockeyMom | Mar 2012 | #40 | |
friendly_iconoclast | Mar 2012 | #56 | |
HockeyMom | Mar 2012 | #57 | |
friendly_iconoclast | Mar 2012 | #60 | |
HockeyMom | Mar 2012 | #61 | |
shadowrider | Mar 2012 | #63 | |
friendly_iconoclast | Mar 2012 | #66 | |
rl6214 | Mar 2012 | #121 | |
shadowrider | Mar 2012 | #62 | |
friendly_iconoclast | Mar 2012 | #55 | |
shadowrider | Mar 2012 | #64 | |
HockeyMom | Mar 2012 | #67 | |
shadowrider | Mar 2012 | #72 | |
HockeyMom | Mar 2012 | #73 | |
Callisto32 | Mar 2012 | #98 | |
Callisto32 | Mar 2012 | #99 | |
Lizzie Poppet | Mar 2012 | #86 | |
TheCowsCameHome | Mar 2012 | #25 | |
jpak | Mar 2012 | #58 | |
HockeyMom | Mar 2012 | #59 | |
shadowrider | Mar 2012 | #65 | |
HockeyMom | Mar 2012 | #74 | |
Cirque du So-What | Mar 2012 | #89 | |
jpak | Mar 2012 | #126 | |
gejohnston | Mar 2012 | #127 | |
jpak | Mar 2012 | #128 | |
gejohnston | Mar 2012 | #129 | |
secondvariety | Mar 2012 | #106 | |
gejohnston | Mar 2012 | #123 | |
eqfan592 | Mar 2012 | #104 | |
jpak | Mar 2012 | #125 | |
Oneka | Mar 2012 | #68 | |
friendly_iconoclast | Mar 2012 | #87 | |
jeff47 | Mar 2012 | #69 | |
Johnny Rico | Mar 2012 | #70 | |
Clames | Mar 2012 | #90 | |
Johnny Rico | Mar 2012 | #91 | |
Clames | Mar 2012 | #92 | |
Johnny Rico | Mar 2012 | #102 | |
PavePusher | Mar 2012 | #115 | |
rl6214 | Mar 2012 | #122 | |
DonP | Mar 2012 | #79 | |
jeff47 | Mar 2012 | #82 | |
DonP | Mar 2012 | #85 | |
Johnny Rico | Mar 2012 | #103 | |
sarisataka | Mar 2012 | #88 | |
Kolesar | Mar 2012 | #113 | |
ellisonz | Mar 2012 | #124 | |
oneshooter | Mar 2012 | #130 | |
thomasprescottjr | Mar 2012 | #136 |
Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 10:41 AM
bowens43 (16,064 posts)
1. The real issue is easy availability of guns and ammo and the attitude that guns are ok.
They are NOT ok and there is no valid reason to allow anyone outside of law enforcement to posses hang guns or ammunition.
Unfortunately people in this country have apparently gone insane. No civilized nation can allow people to walk around with hand guns. And you're right , the supporters of the death merchants will continue to drag our nation into the third world. better egg on my face then blood on my hands........ |
Response to bowens43 (Reply #1)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:03 AM
shadowrider (4,941 posts)
3. No valid reason. So I guess you're ok with bad guys killing innocent victims
as long as the victims don't have guns with which to defend themselves.
I'm 58 with a slight heart condition. An in shape 18 year old can make mincemeat out of me in a hurry. My carrying a weapon evens those odds, but guarantees nothing. |
Response to shadowrider (Reply #3)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:32 AM
era veteran (4,069 posts)
15. Dig
I'm 58 and can't low run anymore.
I also refuse to be a victim. |
Response to bowens43 (Reply #1)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:05 AM
Atypical Liberal (5,412 posts)
4. I think it is ridiculous to think that only agents of the state can save me from harm.
The real issue is easy availability of guns and ammo and the attitude that guns are ok.
They are NOT ok and there is no valid reason to allow anyone outside of law enforcement to posses hang guns or ammunition. Guns are the best tool for resisting someone intent on violence. It is why police carry firearms. Even police in countries like England, who are not normally armed, carry firearms when up against a truly violent situation where the safety of the public or the officers is in doubt. Like it or not, the firearm, the handgun specifically, is the most portable, easy-to-use device ever invented that can give nearly any human the power of deadly force. I think it is terrible, absolutely terrible, to say that people don't have the right to use such tools to defend themselves, and that only agents of the state have that right. Police are almost never present when violent crimes happen. They almost always show up after the crime has already been committed to record evidence, interview witnesses, and aid in the prosecution of the crime. They are almost never able to use their guns to save civilians from violence. I refuse to abdicate responsibility for my safety and that of my family. Especially when the tools to insure it are so readily and easily available. |
Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #4)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:32 PM
X_Digger (18,585 posts)
44. Nor do they have a legal obligation to 'save' anyone. n/t
Response to bowens43 (Reply #1)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:08 AM
one-eyed fat man (3,201 posts)
5. You sound just like....
![]() "Anyone found in possession of a handgun, except a legitimate officer of the law, should go to jail—period!" After he shoots, with an illegally possessed handgun, a teen-aged kid skinny dipping in the back yard swimming pool of his Washington, DC home. back yard, Carl Rowen called his trial on weapons charges "racially motivated." "Let... others call me a hypocrite because I fired a gun in a moment of personal peril. I shall still be for strict gun control." |
Response to bowens43 (Reply #1)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:11 AM
Upton (9,709 posts)
7. "there is no valid reason to allow anyone outside of law enforcement to possess hand guns"
Talk like that is what loses Democrats elections..
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Response to bowens43 (Reply #1)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:13 AM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
9. So why do you think America is enjoying historically low levels of gun violence?
criminal violence of all kinds has been steadily declining for 20 years now. Are declining rates of violent crimes a sign of a third world nation?
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Response to hack89 (Reply #9)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:53 AM
orwell (6,751 posts)
22. Could it be...
...an aging demographic.
Old people are less aggressive, less prone to crime. If you follow the baby boom you will see that most major trends follow their aging patterns. There is also a theory that post Roe crime started falling about 15 years later as all those unwanted pregnancies did not bear fruit. The theory is that a child raised in an environment where he/she is unwanted results in a greater likelihood for criminal anti-social behavior later in the child's life. It is very difficult to establish cause effect when social behavior/trends are concerned. Even the previously stated "Roe theory" can be an example of post hoc logical fallacy. Is Mogadishu safe because guns are readily available? I'm not trying to get in an argument here. I'm just saying that this is a very complex problem that does not lend itself to simplistic solutions. |
Response to orwell (Reply #22)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:58 AM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
23. So if it is not guns per se but a particular demographic with guns that is the problem
them perhaps one size fits all gun control solutions are not the answer.
But the actual purpose of my post was simply to point out that Americans have never been safer when it comes to gun violence. |
Response to hack89 (Reply #23)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:16 PM
safeinOhio (22,922 posts)
26. Except in most large urban areas
where gun crime is on the rise.
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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #26)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:45 PM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
32. They are lower in LA
Response to safeinOhio (Reply #26)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:46 PM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
33. Care to provide some hard numbers. nt
Response to safeinOhio (Reply #26)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:48 PM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
35. Lowest in 48 years for Atlanta
Response to hack89 (Reply #35)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 04:50 PM
safeinOhio (22,922 posts)
76. update on Atlanta
as low as the 2011 figure is, the murder rate was actually lower just two years ago in 2009, when there were only 80 homicides
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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #26)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:49 PM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
36. Murders down 14 percent in Chicago.
Response to hack89 (Reply #36)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 04:54 PM
safeinOhio (22,922 posts)
77. That was 2010, this is 2012
http://homicides.redeyechicago.com/
Chicago reaches 100 homicides for the year By Tracy Swartz posted March 21, 2012 at 12:00 a.m. Chicago on Wednesday reached 100 homicides for the year—the fastest the city has hit this mark in at least seven years, RedEye and police data show. Seventeen homicides have been recorded in the last week—including four each on Saturday and Sunday, a RedEye analysis of preliminary police information found. Chicago has not reached 100 homicides in March since 2004, when the city logged 106 homicides before April 1, according to police data. The city reached 100 homicides last year on April 26, RedEye data shows. |
Response to safeinOhio (Reply #26)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:55 PM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
37. Washington DC had their lowest number of murders in decades
Response to safeinOhio (Reply #26)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 04:25 PM
safeinOhio (22,922 posts)
71. NY NY crime up this year in 34 o 76 precincts.
Up in Toledo, Flint Kansas City Mo.and Detroit as well as these 10 with the highest rise.
http://247wallst.com/2011/11/22/cities-where-violent-crime-is-soaring/2/ |
Response to hack89 (Reply #23)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 04:57 PM
Hoyt (48,409 posts)
78. They might be even safer without so many guns.
Response to Hoyt (Reply #78)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 05:03 PM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
80. Criminals will always get all the guns they want.
just like they can get all the illegal drugs they want.
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Response to hack89 (Reply #80)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 05:12 PM
Hoyt (48,409 posts)
81. Yea, because the gun obsessed keep buying more and more hoping to satiate some strange needs.
Response to Hoyt (Reply #81)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 05:13 PM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
83. Think carefully about my drug reference - it was a clue. nt
Response to hack89 (Reply #83)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 08:18 PM
iverglas (38,549 posts)
107. yep, we grow the gunz up here in Canada
The pot's in the basement. The gunz, we grow them in the back garden, 'cause they're a root crop so it's easy to hide. Then we ship them over the border packed in bales of pot for the neighbours' consumption.
Because the neighbours are just addicted to gunz and we want to make sure they get their fix! ![]() |
Response to bowens43 (Reply #1)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:31 PM
X_Digger (18,585 posts)
41. *cough* I think you just made his point for him. Bravo! n/t
Response to bowens43 (Reply #1)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:05 PM
friendly_iconoclast (15,280 posts)
53. Sure thing, shares- or is it Don Caballero?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=294852&mesg_id=294927
Figured out how you're going to get the Mexican and Canadian armies here? |
Response to bowens43 (Reply #1)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 11:41 PM
rl6214 (8,142 posts)
119. this is extremism and not what the majority in this country want.
Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:09 AM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
6. There is a demand for child porn too, but that is being dealt with.
The guns and ammo affliction is just going to take longer and require more horror and collective outrage.
That's the way in happened in Australia. |
Response to Loudly (Reply #6)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:16 AM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
10. No it won't. Americans know enough to look beyond the emotions at the hard fact.
the facts that say we are enjoying historically low levels of violent crime with further declines in the future.
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Response to Loudly (Reply #6)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:19 AM
Johnny Rico (1,438 posts)
12. Suuuure it'll happen just as in Australia. Check this out:
![]() |
Response to Johnny Rico (Reply #12)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:29 AM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
13. That's a dynamic map of a nation heading for a crisis.
More guns in the hands of more people makes the backlash inevitable.
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Response to Loudly (Reply #13)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:45 AM
Johnny Rico (1,438 posts)
19. Sounds like a title of a Marvel comic from the '60s...
"Beware...the coming of The Backlash!"
Mind you, there actually is a Marvel villain named "Blacklash"! ![]() No, I don't know why he has a green(!) ponytail. |
Response to Loudly (Reply #13)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:46 AM
Clames (2,038 posts)
20. I see it as the spread of liberalism...
...and common sense. Red states turning blue is a good thing.
|
Response to Clames (Reply #20)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:20 PM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
27. Blue on that map does not mean Democratic.
It means poisoned with gun insanity.
I have to assume you are aware of that and were just being deliberately obtuse. |
Response to Loudly (Reply #27)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:02 PM
DonP (6,185 posts)
39. Can you explain why violent crime is at a 40 year low?
With all the "poisoned minds" and "gun insanity" not to mention record high gun sales, how could crime possibly be so low? Is the FBI and CDC cooking the books?
Wouldn't your "logic" indicate more violence? And try not to sound like you're too hopeful for more violence in your responses. |
Response to DonP (Reply #39)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:31 PM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
42. Also from FBI.gov
Information collected regarding type of weapon showed that firearms were used in 67.5 percent of the Nation’s murders, 41.4 percent of robberies, and 20.6 percent of aggravated assaults.
So how much better would the crime stats be if firearms were scarce? Yet more guns and ammo are put forward as a good thing? |
Response to Loudly (Reply #42)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:56 PM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
52. Gun ownership up while murders are down
there appears to a logical disconnect in your argument.
Imagine how much better crime stats would be if cocaine and heroine were scarce? Perhaps we should make them illegal? Criminals will always get guns. |
Response to hack89 (Reply #52)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 08:28 PM
iverglas (38,549 posts)
108. moon made of cheese while murders are down
Because I said so, that's why.
There appears to be an effort at proof by blatant assertion in your subject line. http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2011/04/26/One-third-of-US-households-own-guns/UPI-46991303850331/ WASHINGTON, April 26 (UPI) -- Almost one-third of U.S. households report having any guns in the home -- the lowest level ever since the survey began in the 1970s, a survey indicates.
The report by the Violence Policy Center is an analysis of data from the General Social Survey conducted by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago. The report says household gun ownership peaked in 1977, with 54 percent of households reported having any guns. Male gun ownership peaked in 1990, with 52.4 percent of U.S. men reported personally owning a gun, but this dropped to 33.2 percent in 2010. Female gun ownership peaked in 1982 at 14.3 percent and dropped to 9.9 percent in 2010. (If you have different info about the GSS, or want to analyze the results yourself, feel free to do so.) The decline has been long and steady. Not that I would claim this is very closely connected to the observed decline in violent crime, myself. On that, I might just say there was nowhere to go but down, when you have a consistent 10,000 or so firearms homicides a year in a supposedly developed nation. Kind of the corollary of how when there are about 50 firearms homicides a year in England and Wales, with a population of about 60 million, it's going to be pretty hard to go any lower. |
Response to iverglas (Reply #108)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 09:19 PM
Dr_Scholl (212 posts)
109. The University of Chicago, the VPC, and NORC all recieve funding from the Joyce Foundation.
Yeah, no bias there.
|
Response to iverglas (Reply #108)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 09:20 PM
sarisataka (11,940 posts)
110. But
Don't we hear from both sides that gun sales are up? There are so many and so easy to get you can buy a machinegun at Wal-Mart?
<Disconnect> ![]() |
Response to sarisataka (Reply #110)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 09:29 PM
iverglas (38,549 posts)
111. wouldn't know
Do firearms manufacturers release their sales numbers? Not that I know of.
Are records kept of private sales? Nope. Do retail sales figures, if there were any, numbers reflect number of people who buy, anyhow? Nope. As for machineguns at Wal-Mart, perhaps somebody has been having wishful dreams, I dunno. |
Response to iverglas (Reply #111)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 09:49 PM
gejohnston (17,502 posts)
112. if the manufactures are publicly traded
I'm sure they do and is reflected in stock price.
Depends on the state. There are no net gain or loss in private sales. Existing ones move from one to another. The numbers I have seen were based on number of NICS checks. Some clown made a youtube video claiming that you can buy machine guns at Wal Mart. Then there was the Al Qaida guy last year.... One semi regular poster claimed you can buy any gun without ID at Wal Mart. |
Response to gejohnston (Reply #112)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 02:56 PM
iverglas (38,549 posts)
131. as I was saying
The numbers I have seen were based on number of NICS checks.
That says nothing about number of people buying guns. Really. It doesn't. It might, and it might also say that a few people bought lots of guns. And seriously: share prices as a measure of sales volume? Some clown made a youtube video claiming that you can buy machine guns at Wal Mart.
So? Do they post here? One semi regular poster claimed you can buy any gun without ID at Wal Mart.
Wouldn't know; maybe you can show me. |
Response to iverglas (Reply #111)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 10:00 PM
sarisataka (11,940 posts)
114. Well
Gun sales:
Ruger- unable to keep up with demand http://www.ruger.com/corporate/news/2012-03-21.html VPC- Traffickers can stock up on their weapons of choice http://vpc.org/press/1107traf.htm| Records- prohibited by law. Would records stop straw man purchases? Not with the current DOJ Retail sales=number of buyers? No But then there seems to be either a few very wealthy collectors or the NCIS has a virus Machine guns at Wal mart? http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=22017 |
Response to sarisataka (Reply #114)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 03:09 PM
iverglas (38,549 posts)
132. c'mon back down to earth now
I really didn't mean to confuse you with that moon talk.
Here's the statement I replied to: Gun ownership up while murders are down
Gun ownership. Not number of guns sold. So lets stick to our muttons, 'k? Records- prohibited by law. Would records stop straw man purchases? Not with the current DOJ
Well, the registry in Canada sure seems to but a damper on straw sales. We just don't hear of many at all. There was that time some bunch of people tried to buy up a lot of M1 Garands for export to the US disguised as car parts - importation into the US is illegal - and the firearms registry flagged the unusual purchase pattern around the country and the would-be smugglers were caught. (I don't care what the reasons are for the US import ban; the fact is that the Cdn registry identified a trafficking attempt.) Individual straw sales? What fool with a clean record and a licence would buy a gun for their buddy the criminal, knowing that if buddy is caught with it, it can be traced straight to Mr./Ms. law-abiding gun owner with the tap of a few keys? The odd fool, no doubt. But we just don't hear of any. Crime guns that are traced are found to be overwhelmingly stolen in Canada or trafficked in from the US, in roughly equal proportions. Ooooh, and that "current DOJ" stuff. That is such a fine hobbyhorse, that one, isn't it? Retail sales=number of buyers? No But then there seems to be either a few very wealthy collectors or the NCIS has a virus
Actually, I'd suggest there is likely a noticeable block of people who already own firearms buying more. I don't go for silly false dichotomies, myself. Machine guns at Wal mart?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=22017 Damn those private videos. Now I'll never know what that guy said. Does he post at DU? Or did you think slackmaster was adopting his comments? ![]() |
Response to iverglas (Reply #132)
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 06:44 PM
AtheistCrusader (33,982 posts)
137. I tend to agree.
A registry will certainly help with trafficking issues.
Sad that we have some domestic examples of registries being used to facilitate confiscation, as most gun owners won't go for it now. |
Response to iverglas (Reply #108)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 11:10 PM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
117. So what's the problem then?
fewer murders, less violence, fewer people owning guns ... looks like we are on the right track.
Probably why gun grabbers have had a bad decade - people understand what is actually happening. |
Response to Loudly (Reply #42)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 04:45 PM
DonP (6,185 posts)
75. And rifles of all types account for less than 2.7% of crimes with guns
But idiot gun grabbers still keep trying to reinstall the ignorant and failed "scary looking" assault weapons ban every year or so anyway.
I also note that you have no answer to the issue of so many more guns in circulation but violent crime has not only not increased, as gun grabbers predicted, it's actually gone way down. So based on the actual measurable facts and not some pile of faith based crap about how evil guns are, I have to assume it is indeed a good thing. Or did you prefer the higher rate of violent crime when there were fewer guns in the hands of the law abiding out there? And how much better would the crime stats look if, if, if, if .... if everyone got a pony on their 5th birthday and lived happily ever after in a gingerbread house. Ah, life would be so much better in you imagination land. Do you actually think you can get the guns out of the hands of the criminals that always have them? Come here to Chicago where they have been banned for decades and go for a walk in Englewood where guns are "scarce". Any other hypothetical crap you want to spew? |
Response to Loudly (Reply #42)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 06:05 AM
Callisto32 (2,997 posts)
95. And monkeys MIGHT fly out of my butt.
Hell, the space 2 inches right of may MIGHT spontaneously turn into a fire-breathing dragon-demon that kills us all.
That is hardly a grounds for policy... On the other hand, More guns =/= more crime. |
Response to Loudly (Reply #13)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:37 PM
krispos42 (48,970 posts)
30. Nope.
Gun ownership in America has been high the last century or so. We're probably in the range of about 800 guns per 1,000 people. It's creeped up to what is presumably an all-time-high over the past few years, but there's no difference between 600 per capita and 800 per capita.
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Response to krispos42 (Reply #30)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 03:24 PM
iverglas (38,549 posts)
133. "gun ownership"?
Gun ownership in America has been high the last century or so. We're probably in the range of about 800 guns per 1,000 people. It's creeped up to what is presumably an all-time-high over the past few years, but there's no difference between 600 per capita and 800 per capita.
(I know you meant "per thousand"!) That's a rate for guns owned. Not owners of guns. How does a rate for the objects -- x/100,000 -- tell us how many people own said objects? It doesn't. And that really is the meaningful information. Not specifically in relation to crime rates, because that is a much more complex relationship. Just in terms of who is really actually involved here, and what is really goingon. Any reasonably reliable estimates I have seen over the last decade have shown that firearms ownership rates -- the proportion of the population that owns firearms -- in the US have steadily declined over the last 35 years. In more nuanced terms, the number of people who have firearms, and specifically long guns, for hunting/sports purposes has declined markedly. That has been offset somewhat by the number of people who have handguns, for, well, other purposes. Firearms owners, in the traditional sense, were a dying breed. Demand for firearms for other purposes, by other people, was then drummed up. What industry would not seek to diversify its product line and broaden its market in the face of a declining market for its traditional products? High firearms (and other) violent crime rates back around the same time that firearms ownership rates among the public began declining were the perfect opportunity to start the campaign to persuade the public it needed guns - handguns specifically - for "self-defence". Never mind that the people they were defending themselves against were getting their own guns from the same firearms industry directly, or indirectly from the people it sold its products to. And of course, never mind that the rise of this particular "gun culture" coincided with the backlash to desegregation. "Your home is your castle; defend it!" cried George P. Mahoney, who championed "gun rights" and fought tooth and nail against housing desegregation in 1968, and was responsible for the Democratic Party losing the Maryland governorship to Spiro T. Agnew ... and just look where that got ya. |
Response to Loudly (Reply #6)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:50 AM
rrneck (17,671 posts)
21. When is the last time
anyone defended themselves with child porn? Can you explain how that can be done?
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Response to rrneck (Reply #21)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:25 PM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
29. You keep asking the wrong question.
Is it less important to protect children from sexual exploitation than it is to protect them from being shot by estranged husbands, drive-by assailants, each other, and neighborhood watch captains?
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Response to Loudly (Reply #29)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:48 PM
rrneck (17,671 posts)
34. Nice dodge.
You compare firearms to child porn. Firearms are used for legitimate self defense. How can child pornography be used for that purpose?
Your position regarding firearms may or may not be right, but the analogy you use does not work. |
Response to rrneck (Reply #34)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 05:48 AM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
93. I see your lips moving, but what I hear is
An unpersuasive argument.
It goes like this: Children will inevitably be killed or crippled because our right to defend ourselves with guns is that important. No number of children being killed or crippled outweighs the importance of our having guns. They can ALL be killed or crippled with guns as far as the United States Constitution is concerned. We must have guns and ammo. |
Response to Loudly (Reply #93)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 06:08 AM
Callisto32 (2,997 posts)
96. What about all the parents with infants carrying guns?
HMMMM, what about them.
The handgun provides you with a defense option that can be operated with a minimum of strength, and one hand. This gives another option to people that might oh, I don't know, be carrying children as well. Think of all the children that banning guns might harm. ITS FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!1!1! |
Response to Callisto32 (Reply #96)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 06:29 AM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
100. Carrying a young child is a protective shield in itself.
It generally deters criminal attack.
A gun just adds unnecessary risk to the equation. But I understand the belitting nonsense which you seek to put forward as your point. |
Response to Loudly (Reply #100)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 11:02 PM
Oneka (653 posts)
116. My three month old daughter will
be so glad to hear that she is a better shield against crime, than the pistol i carry.
When she is old enough i will let her know how many muggings, and carjackings, she prevented in her youth. I think i will double her allowance, right now. ![]() |
Response to Loudly (Reply #93)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 10:32 AM
rrneck (17,671 posts)
105. Still dodging.
I'll ask again. How can child pornography be used for self defense? It's a fairly simple question. I haven't addressed your position on firearms, only the analogy you used. Are you not able to intelligently discuss it?
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Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:11 AM
mazzarro (3,450 posts)
8. No surprise about this absurd stupidity that gun nuts always display! -- n/t
Response to mazzarro (Reply #8)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:45 PM
spin (17,484 posts)
49. I could reverse that comment ...
and insult you. However I believe that I have facts and statistics on my side of the argument so I don't have to lower myself to that level.
The violent crime rate in the United States has dropped dramatically during the same time frame that firearms sales skyrocketed and "shall issue" concealed carry swept across our nation. This may not be positive proof that more guns equals less crime but it does prove that more guns does not equal more crime and also disproves the allegation that "shall issue" concealed carry will turn the U.S. into the "Wild West" with shootouts at every traffic intersection and at high noon on Main Street. |
Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:17 AM
ileus (15,393 posts)
11. Let's hope for continued progress for peoples 2A civil rights.
Response to ileus (Reply #11)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:30 AM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
14. Your imaginary 2A rights threaten to deprive you of all your genuine rights.
By murdering your stubborn hide.
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Response to Loudly (Reply #14)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:37 AM
era veteran (4,069 posts)
16. I am wondering
Who gets to decide for me what's a 'genuine right' ? Is it you?
We don't have pick and choose boutique Constitution. |
Response to Loudly (Reply #14)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:38 AM
Pacafishmate (249 posts)
17. You can choose not to take advantage of a right.
Don't force your choice on other people.
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Response to Pacafishmate (Reply #17)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 05:20 PM
Hoyt (48,409 posts)
84. Why? We don't tolerate air polluters, smokers are banned in a lot of places -- why not guns?
Guns should be viewed as polluting society (especially those who keep buying more and more hoping to satisfy some strange need). Guns in public should become as unacceptable as someone smoking a stinking cigar in a hospital waiting room. |
Response to Hoyt (Reply #84)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 06:14 PM
Pacafishmate (249 posts)
134. Smoking is not a right, smoking directly harms other people.
My carrying of a gun doesn't harm anyone. Gun collectors don't pollute society any more than coin collectors pollute society.
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Response to Pacafishmate (Reply #134)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 06:19 PM
Hoyt (48,409 posts)
135. Like adding more guns to society doesn't.
Response to Loudly (Reply #14)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:44 AM
Clames (2,038 posts)
18. Imaginary?
Seems you are the one imagining things since the 2A is very real and very much a protected individual right in this country.
![]() |
Response to Clames (Reply #18)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:21 PM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
28. Sure, just like not having to share the bathroom with black folks was.
Until the nation was dragged kicking and screaming into modernity on the subject.
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Response to Loudly (Reply #14)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:58 PM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
38. Yet the odds of me being murdered have never been lower.
how do you explain that?
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Response to hack89 (Reply #38)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:33 PM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
45. Will that be any consolation to you when the bullets are entering your body?
I think not.
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Response to Loudly (Reply #45)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:52 PM
hack89 (38,737 posts)
51. There are many other things that are more likely to kill me first
getting shot is very low on that list.
If you had to power to change 10 things in America with the only criteria being you had to save the most lives, guns would not be on that list. Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
Heart disease: 599,413 Cancer: 567,628 Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353 Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842 Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021 Alzheimer's disease: 79,003 Diabetes: 68,705 Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692 Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935 Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909 http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm Drunk drivers are what scare me most - the odds are astronomically higher that I will be killed by a drunk before I get shot. Put the fear aside. |
Response to hack89 (Reply #51)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:12 PM
beevul (12,194 posts)
54. How about...
Dieing of uncontrollable hysterical laughter, laughing at a ressurected PPR poster that thinks nobody sees him/her?
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Response to Loudly (Reply #14)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:32 PM
beevul (12,194 posts)
43. PPR (tombstoned) posters are not allowed to return, shares.
Response to beevul (Reply #43)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:42 PM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
47. Whoever that person is or was, we obviously agree.
And I like the cut of their jib.
(Originally a sailing term.) |
Response to Loudly (Reply #47)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:45 PM
beevul (12,194 posts)
48. Clearly.
Transparently, even.
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Response to beevul (Reply #48)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 11:25 PM
Oneka (653 posts)
118. apparently there is much to aggree on.
Sharesunited- Tombstoned http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=421899&mesg_id=421976 So how much better would the crime stats be if firearms were scarce?
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Response to Loudly (Reply #14)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:38 PM
X_Digger (18,585 posts)
46. Ahh, nvm, I see I wasn't the first to notice PPR'd Resurrection. n/t
Response to Loudly (Reply #14)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:49 PM
ileus (15,393 posts)
50. So you're saying anti's are going to murder me?
Response to ileus (Reply #50)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 05:58 AM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
94. How does that possibly follow from what I've said?
Opponents of guns and ammo aren't in favor of making the means of convenient murder easily accessible and widespread.
By definition, it is those who favor an imaginary right to conveniently murder who are trying to do you in. |
Response to Loudly (Reply #14)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 06:11 AM
Callisto32 (2,997 posts)
97. Define "right."
Response to Callisto32 (Reply #97)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 06:54 AM
Loudly (2,436 posts)
101. A claim to a freedom, power or immunity?
Which others either willingly or are obliged to respect?
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Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:01 PM
HockeyMom (14,323 posts)
24. "What are you looking at?"
"Nothing." "What do you mean nothing?" "Get out of my face, or I will make you get out of my face!" "Hey, Stop pushing me." "Sorry." "You want a FIGHT?" "Get away from me." "I have nowhere to GO".
I have heard these kinds of "conversations" every day riding the NYC subway during rush hours. Threat? STAND YOUR GROUND? It all in the eye of the beholder. Yes, I have seen fights break out in some of these situations. Bystanders have usually called the transit police. I suppose if these commuters were armed they wouldn't to call the police? Somebody in the crowd could just SHOOT. I wonder how many innocent people in the CROWDED would die in a situation like that. Now, do you think these people should be ARMED? On a crowded subway car or platform? Of course, NONE of these would EVER pull out a gun in "self-defense" or Stand their Ground. Nah, NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. ALL gun owners are responsible people who never get MAD, and NEVER snap. |
Response to HockeyMom (Reply #24)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:39 PM
shadowrider (4,941 posts)
31. Nah, NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. ALL gun owners are responsible people who never get MAD, and NEVER snap.
Who, on this board, has EVER said that?
Prove the statement or retract. |
Response to shadowrider (Reply #31)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 01:21 PM
HockeyMom (14,323 posts)
40. Here is one from Naples, Florida with 21,000 people
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/jul/13/court-records-cordial-greeting-argument-preceded-h/
This man had a history of domestic violence (as did Zimmerman), including towrds his son, but his guns were never confiscated. This hospital is only about 10 miles from where I live. In fact, my husband has had surgery in this hospital. He was scheduled for surgery just 4 days after this incident happend, on the SAME FLOOR. When I brought him there days later, the nurses were still very upset. I spoke to one nurse and she said they HID when this happened. She said she hopes NEVER to have to experience that again in her life. I will say that fate was with me and that my husband's surgery was days later. NRA, and the State of Florida, would probably say that STAFF should be armed. Incidentailly, my husband "joked" at the time that maybe he needed to bring his GUNS with him to SURGERY!!!!! That is not funny at all. It is PATHETIC. |
Response to HockeyMom (Reply #40)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:18 PM
friendly_iconoclast (15,280 posts)
56. That's not *quite* what you said- but that's okay.
We understand that you have shall we say, "different" standards of accuracy...
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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #56)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:25 PM
HockeyMom (14,323 posts)
57. Do you think DISNEY should let their employees PACK HEAT too?
under their Mickey Mouse suits? Do you live in Florida? This was A BIG ISSUE. Disney fought this and WON. Do you think teachers and staff of K-12 and Day Care should be able to bring guns to school for protection?
Tell me about that too. BTW, I have experienced 2 school lockdowns in 2 years in Florida. Oh, ARM THEM TEACHERS. |
Response to HockeyMom (Reply #57)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:49 PM
friendly_iconoclast (15,280 posts)
60. Something wrong with your caps lock?
Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #60)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:50 PM
HockeyMom (14,323 posts)
61. You didn't answer any of my questions.
Why not?
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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #61)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:54 PM
shadowrider (4,941 posts)
63. Nah. Answer my question. It was first.
Response to HockeyMom (Reply #61)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:56 PM
friendly_iconoclast (15,280 posts)
66. Disney is free to ban guns on its' property. As for school personnel carrying...
...where has it been done?
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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #57)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 12:09 AM
rl6214 (8,142 posts)
121. I don't know of any concealed carry licenses that allow carry in amusement parks
As for schools, my wife taught for 31 years and the majority of teachers I have talked to that she worked with agreed that teachers should have the right to carry on school grounds so it really dosen't matter what you think, you aren't there all day every day.
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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #40)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:52 PM
shadowrider (4,941 posts)
62. Interesting, but you didn't answer the question
Who here has ever said that?
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Response to shadowrider (Reply #31)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:16 PM
friendly_iconoclast (15,280 posts)
55. Another "you can buy guns at Wal-Mart without ID" statement, it would seem.
Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #55)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:55 PM
shadowrider (4,941 posts)
64. To be more specific
You can walk into Walmart with $100 and buy any gun no questions asked.
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Response to shadowrider (Reply #64)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:59 PM
HockeyMom (14,323 posts)
67. Irrelevant
Again, not answering the specific question. Domestic violence, resisting arrest, is not enough to confiscate someone's guns? There is a history of violence and breaking those laws. Right to own a gun trumps breaking the law?
I am not going to answer you until you answer all my other questions. Why? Because you can't. I am talking about LEGAL questions. Oh, not. CAPS!!!!!! |
Response to HockeyMom (Reply #67)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 04:32 PM
shadowrider (4,941 posts)
72. I asked first, you answer first.
Response to HockeyMom (Reply #67)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 04:40 PM
HockeyMom (14,323 posts)
73. Answer my LEGAL questions
You don't care about Rule of Law?
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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #73)
Callisto32 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to HockeyMom (Reply #67)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 06:21 AM
Callisto32 (2,997 posts)
99. That depends.
There your legal questions are answered.
P.S. I am an attorney. So you can take that to the bank (er, court) at least in PA. |
Response to HockeyMom (Reply #24)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 10:12 PM
Lizzie Poppet (10,164 posts)
86. All? No.
The vast, overwhelming majority? Yep.
Next? |
Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:12 PM
TheCowsCameHome (39,957 posts)
25. Yeah, right.
![]() ![]() |
Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:31 PM
jpak (40,017 posts)
58. Zimmerman is alive, free and armed today thanks to "stand your ground"
GOP/NRA fail.
yup |
Response to jpak (Reply #58)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:39 PM
HockeyMom (14,323 posts)
59. He had a history of Domestic Violence and resisting arrest
Just like that case in the Naples shooting. Why weren't their guns confiscated? Do you have be charged with MURDER to get your guns taken away?
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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #59)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:56 PM
shadowrider (4,941 posts)
65. Did Martin have a history of violence (At least at school)?
Who knows. His school records are on lockdown.
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Response to shadowrider (Reply #65)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 04:45 PM
HockeyMom (14,323 posts)
74. He was suspended from school once
but having worked in Florida schools that can mean anything. If he didn't submit his homework for a certain period of time, that could be cause of suspension, at least in some schools.
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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #74)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:26 PM
Cirque du So-What (18,135 posts)
89. It was for tardiness
Martin's parents kept a close eye on him, but they didn't have to be too strict, since he stayed out of trouble, Collins said. However, he had recently been suspended from school for five days for tardiness, his English teacher, Michelle Kypriss, told the Orlando Sentinel. School officials did not respond to a request for comment. http://news.yahoo.com/slain-teens-friends-never-picked-fight-175228816.html;_ylt=AqdFghMdg3uRDfqpTkYCzOOs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNsMHI3bzRkBG1pdANUb3BTdG9yeSBGUARwa2cDNTgxYjBkMjktZjM0Yy0zMDJjLThmZGItYTg1MTA0ZjVlYjcxBHBvcwM5BHNlYwN0b3Bfc3RvcnkEdmVyA2YyZDllZDIwLTc1NGYtMTFlMS1iZThmLWM2OGM3ZWEzZjIwMg--;_ylg=X3oDMTFrM25vcXFyBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnMEdGVzdAM-;_ylv=3 That's one source of apologia shot all to hell. Mr. 'just the facts' must now resort to making up different shit. |
Response to Cirque du So-What (Reply #89)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 10:14 AM
jpak (40,017 posts)
126. In FL, tardiness + hoodie = capital crime enforced by asshole vigilantes
yup
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Response to jpak (Reply #126)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 11:32 AM
gejohnston (17,502 posts)
127. since Zimmerman lives in a gated community
the chances of he being actually from Florida is kind of small. Even if he was, his parents wasn't. In other words, maybe he learned his racism in your state.
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Response to gejohnston (Reply #127)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 12:10 PM
jpak (40,017 posts)
128. No - they maybe learned it in your state
yup
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Response to jpak (Reply #128)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 12:48 PM
gejohnston (17,502 posts)
129. most transplants
are from the northeast. The area I live, mostly Long Island and NYC. A few from Mass. I have yet to find anyone else from Wyoming, or any other Rocky Mountain state.
If I can convince the wife snow is cool, this place is in my rear view mirror. |
Response to shadowrider (Reply #65)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 07:56 PM
secondvariety (1,245 posts)
106. What are you trying to say?
Response to HockeyMom (Reply #59)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 12:28 AM
gejohnston (17,502 posts)
123. was he convicted of domestic violence?
It seems not. If he were, he would be looking at state charges for carrying concealed without a permit and federal charges for being in possession of a firearm.
Please encourage DV victims to press charges and get a conviction. |
Response to jpak (Reply #58)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 10:00 AM
eqfan592 (5,963 posts)
104. "...thanks to the corrupt SPD"
There, fixed it for you. And you know all those times I've said people like yourself only serve to distract from the real issues? This is a perfect example of that.
You (and many other du'ers, sadly) were so desperate to lash out st the SYG law and CCW permit holders that you've backed yourself into a corner. Either it's the law you hate that is to blame for Zimmermans freedom, our the corrupt SPD. You can't really have it both ways because admitting the SPD is at fault is an admission that the SYG law does NOT cover this shooting. Oh, you can try and ignore that and go after both, but it won't save you from looking like your talking out of both sides of your mouth. |
Response to eqfan592 (Reply #104)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 10:13 AM
jpak (40,017 posts)
125. Stand your ground laws are vigilante enabler and protector laws
they suck
yup |
Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 03:08 PM
Oneka (653 posts)
68. Don't be so sure
Don't be so sure of a conviction or even a prosecution in this case.
The antis, have been salivating for years for a case like this. The media attention to this case is plenty of proof of that. Many police and DA's don't like stand your ground laws. Don't be surprised if they fail to prosecute this case to further their agenda, of getting this law repealed. They will likely use the same law you linked to in the OP. 766-041 (2) B, is the relevant part of the statute. If Zimmerman asserted that he attempted to withdraw from the use of force, and the kid, didn't stop hitting him, he likely has a good chance of avoiding prosecution at all. The cops and DA can very easily stop any prosecution before it begins, then use the SYG statute, as justification for doing so. Don't be surprised if Federal pressure, and FBI assistance wane, as they realize what an anti , wet dream, they are sitting on with this case, if only they don't prosecute. The best thing that could happen in this case , would be for the media blitz to continue. The pressure could force the Florida authorities to do the right thing and prosecute this case. |
Response to Oneka (Reply #68)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 10:49 PM
friendly_iconoclast (15,280 posts)
87. I suspect a few antis would rather Martin's family go without justice...
...if it helped in the fight against the SYG law. A "small sacrifice", as it were...
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Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 03:33 PM
jeff47 (26,549 posts)
69. I don't think that picture illustrates the point you're trying to make.
My first thought is "Gun enthusiasts must be mostly old, since they're still reading magazines".
My second thought is "How absurdly obsessed do you have to be about guns to read "AR-15" Magazine? "Gun", "Rifle", "Handgun" - those at least make sense in that they're covering a wide variety of weapons. "But AR-15"? A magazine devoted entirely to a single model of a single weapon? You're not going to find "Thinkpad x25 magazine" over in the technology section. Methinks the subscribers to that particular periodical aren't the most mentally healthy. As for the lack of "gun control monthly", did you find "oxygen breathers monthly"? No? Well, clearly breathing oxygen must not be popular. As for your particular love of firearms, that isn't going to be threatened unless Zimmerman gets off. If he does, there's going to be an anti-SYG backlash, but dumping those laws won't harm responsible gun owners. |
Response to jeff47 (Reply #69)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 03:46 PM
Johnny Rico (1,438 posts)
70. A magazine devoted to the AR-15 makes sense in today's marketplace.
In the last 10 years, the AR-15 market has exploded. There are dozens of manufacturers, and hundreds of variants in dozens of calibers. The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America, outselling everything else.
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Response to Johnny Rico (Reply #70)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:53 PM
Clames (2,038 posts)
90. And for all those manufacturers...
...I'm SOL on buying one at the moment. Any quality AR is sold out in my area. Stag has only a few on hand and they are all lefty models. Local shop is building some nice ones but they are back ordered for the next few months already.
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Response to Clames (Reply #90)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:57 PM
Johnny Rico (1,438 posts)
91. You could always go to Gunbroker.
Granted, you'll have to pay shipping and a dealer fee, but it might beat waiting for months!
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Response to Johnny Rico (Reply #91)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 01:13 AM
Clames (2,038 posts)
92. I did.
Selection is minimal (a lot of CA models, crap) and the few I'd want are overpriced. I can wait.
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Response to Clames (Reply #92)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 09:25 AM
Johnny Rico (1,438 posts)
102. I didn't know they were that hard to find lately.
I can certainly understand not wanting to get one of lousy California models! I thought that with the glut of AR-15 manufacturers it would be a buyer's market, but demand is obviously outpacing supply.
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Response to Clames (Reply #90)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 10:20 PM
PavePusher (15,374 posts)
115. Buy a stripped lower and build a custom gun yourself.
Last edited Sun Mar 25, 2012, 10:55 AM - Edit history (2) They are quite easy and you can save a lot of money that way.
They aren't nicknamed the "tinker-toys" or "erector-sets" of the gun world for nothing. |
Response to Clames (Reply #90)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 12:16 AM
rl6214 (8,142 posts)
122. Build one yourself, they are inexpensive, easy to build and a lot of fun to build
I have built about a dozen of them. I have given one to each of my three sons on their 18th birthdays. They picked out how they wanted them configured and I built them. I have also built for my brother, his wife and I have 6 of them myself, each one different than the other.
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Response to jeff47 (Reply #69)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 05:02 PM
DonP (6,185 posts)
79. You're right, gun contorollers are so much more "state of the art" people
No dead tree mags for them! Stupid AR-15 shooters, investing thousands of $ in their sport for different rifles for different applications (the most popular center fire rifle in America) using it for everything from hunting to high power target work. Why learn anything new to improve your high power scores 200 or 600 yards or your very expensive hunts.
I'll just get my head right and go over and check out some of the many gun control oriented websites and blogs and engage in a spirited discussion. Oh wait! There isn't a single, active gun control web site on the entire net, let alone any that allow interaction. How can that be? Even the crappy Brady site is always closed to any comments. But you're probably right, there are just so many gun control supporters, there's no need to communicate with each other, that Nixonian vast "silent majority" is right behind you. They just never seem to get around to fucking voting that way. There's a reason gun control has become the punch line in any electoral and judicial joke. |
Response to DonP (Reply #79)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 05:13 PM
jeff47 (26,549 posts)
82. You do realize there are people who aren't "gun contorollers" nor enthusiasts, right?
Why learn anything new to improve your high power scores 200 or 600 yards or your very expensive hunts. It will be difficult for you to claim AR-15s radically change so often that a periodical is necessary to keep up with those changes. I'll just get my head right and go over and check out some of the many gun control oriented websites and blogs and engage in a spirited discussion. Again, there are people in the world who aren't enthusiasts for either guns or gun control. The entire magazine industry is collapsing as people abandon magazines for on-line resources. The fact that an entire shelf is full of gun magazines indicates gun owners aren't doing that. The other people not doing that are old. But you're probably right, there are just so many gun control supporters, I'm beginning to think this untreated paranoia of yours could be something to be concerned about, especially since you apparently own guns. Either that, or the magazines don't matter since your level of literacy was unable to actually read my post, where I don't call for any 'gun-control' measures. Instead, I point out that saying "there's a lot of gun magazines!!!!!!11!!" isn't necessarily the positive image the OP believed it to be. |
Response to jeff47 (Reply #82)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 05:33 PM
DonP (6,185 posts)
85. Actually they do change that much
The OP point was very simple, that there are enough people buying all those different magazines ever month, poor ignorant bastards that we are, that prove the shooting sports are big enough to support several other industries, including a growing segment of publsihing. While gun control, OTOH, has nothing to show for all the Sturm und Drang and manufactured outrage they try and whip up from time to time. That simple enough for you?
But, since you apparently and proudly know nothing about the subject under discussion here, the shooting sports and the people that enjoy them, including many DU members, I don't expect much in the way of advised commentary, and I'm rarely disappointed. But poorly drafted ad hominem snark like yours is what we've come to expect. When you get a chance please be sure and post your online psychiatric license for us all. We have a lot of self qualified mind readers like you that visit this forum, then quickly go away when their pet theories are debunked with facts. |
Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 10:59 PM
sarisataka (11,940 posts)
88. Separate, concurring opinion
I believe the OP may be correct. Not because of the magazines but because the forum of the masses is fickle and has a short attention span.
Yes, this will be news until resolution. Zimmerman will be: -convicted and imprisoned -found not guilty and then vanish into hiding -not charged and vanish into hiding -killed by someone serving a very ironic justice Then public attention will turn to next NEXT BIG THING so by the time any meaningful legislation comes up it will be on page three of the local news. To exemplify my point: What is Casey Anthony up to and what laws have been passed to protect children that have received national attention? ![]() |
Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 09:57 PM
Kolesar (31,182 posts)
113. What a thin, poorly written, and disconnected thesis
Your objective is to tell a great number of DUers that you despise them, and to accomplish that you attempted to tie together seven disconnected paragraphs.
Your weak sentence structure does not help your "writing". "..." is not punctuation. |
Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 01:15 AM
ellisonz (27,186 posts)
124. They should put those behind the counter with black wrapping too...
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Response to ellisonz (Reply #124)
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 01:17 PM
oneshooter (8,509 posts)
130. Why? Do you find the covers and articles obscene?
Response to virginia mountainman (Original post)
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 03:10 AM
thomasprescottjr (4 posts)
136. Gun Owners Caucus of your state Democratic Party
I am sure that there are some activists in this group.
Do you want to protect your rights? Do you want to hit the GOP, ALEC, and the NRA where it hurts? Do you want to bring back votes to the Democratic Party and candidates that are lost on the wedge issue? If you answered yes, then realize that Oregon, Texas, and Nevada Democratic parties have gun owners caucuses within them. I am in the process of creating a Gun Owners Caucus of the Arizona Democratic Party. It will be debated and voted on April 21. I have set up a facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/#!/GunOwnersCaucusOfTheArizonaDemocraticPartyproposed . Look forward to posts and visits to the page. This issue is part of our Constitution, and we appear as treasonists and gun grabbers. The reality is that almost all gun control is pushed for or signed into action by the Republican Party. Anyone remember papa Bush going after the cop killer .38 specials? We have been silent on this issue and need to let people know Democrats dont want people's guns, we have our own. We need these caucuses to bring back the voters, and to change the composition at every house into blue. I cannot do this alone I need your help. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Blue-Steel-Democrats-Gun-Owners-Caucus-of-the-Democratic-Party-of-Oregon/356773990456 was the motivation to get me to go into action. Lets not let ALEC win, we must fight back. Create these caucuses, push for safety, marksmanship, and funding for Dems. Get some commonsense legislation not gun bans, lets keep the people who should not have guns from having an easy time to get them. Thomas Prescott Precinct Committeeman, Hall Precinct, LD 28, MCDP member, Arizona Democratic Veterans Caucus |