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Wed Mar 14, 2018, 12:57 AM

A pro-gun Democrat could win in Trump country. Where does that leave gun control activism?

If you want an illustration of the current Democratic dilemma on guns, look no further than the special congressional election in Pennsylvania’s 18th District, which will be decided on Tuesday.

Recent polls show Democrat Conor Lamb running neck and neck with his Republican opponent Rick Saccone. Democrats are looking at an improbable prospect: Lamb could win a deeply red district that Democrats were never even supposed to be competitive in. And part of the reason he might be doing so well is his pro-gun messaging.

Lamb’s first campaign ad featured footage of him shooting an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle at a gun range, with the narrator voiceover saying the candidate “still loves to shoot.”

Republicans have been trying furiously to attack Lamb on the gun issue, painting him as someone who will pursue aggressive gun control policies if elected to Congress. But he’s not giving them a lot of ammunition to work with. A US Marine Corps veteran, Lamb is on the record as not supporting additional gun control measures.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/12/17061712/gun-control-democrat-trump-activism-midterms-2018

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Reply A pro-gun Democrat could win in Trump country. Where does that leave gun control activism? (Original post)
LAGC Mar 2018 OP
ffr Mar 2018 #1
gejohnston Mar 2018 #3
ffr Mar 2018 #4
gejohnston Mar 2018 #6
Marengo Mar 2018 #9
ffr Mar 2018 #11
Marengo Mar 2018 #12
ffr Mar 2018 #13
Marengo Mar 2018 #14
ffr Mar 2018 #15
Marengo Mar 2018 #17
ffr Mar 2018 #18
Marengo Mar 2018 #19
ffr Mar 2018 #21
discntnt_irny_srcsm Mar 2018 #23
ffr Mar 2018 #24
discntnt_irny_srcsm Mar 2018 #25
ffr Mar 2018 #29
discntnt_irny_srcsm Mar 2018 #32
Marengo Mar 2018 #28
ffr Mar 2018 #30
Marengo Mar 2018 #33
ffr Mar 2018 #31
ffr Mar 2018 #16
TreasonousBastard Mar 2018 #2
gejohnston Mar 2018 #5
Paladin Mar 2018 #7
gejohnston Mar 2018 #8
Marengo Mar 2018 #10
friendly_iconoclast Mar 2018 #20
Alea Mar 2018 #22
beachbum bob Mar 2018 #26
Freddie Mar 2018 #27

Response to LAGC (Original post)

Wed Mar 14, 2018, 12:59 AM

1. When 600,000 students and countless millions of others walk out tomorrow at 10:00 AM

you'll have your answer. The #NeverAgain movement is for real. A generation of liberal and progressive minded voters and activists.

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Response to ffr (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 14, 2018, 11:56 AM

3. no it isn't

Most of them think it is a moment of silence. Liberal only in the classical sense. Generation Z is far less progressive and more conservative than my generation.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #3)

Wed Mar 14, 2018, 12:02 PM

4. That flies in the face of everything I'm seeing and hearing on the news.

These teens are activists, anti-gun activists, register to vote to-vote-out-NRA-congresscritter activists, free speech activists, take to the streets activists. If anything, they appear to be the most liberal of any generation since the 1960s. They may have been less progressive prior to February 14th, 2018, but all indications are they are more progressive/liberal now.

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Response to ffr (Reply #4)

Wed Mar 14, 2018, 12:09 PM

6. they are a loud minority

that's all. 18-25-year-olds are more pro-gun. The only "take to the streets" people I see are far leftists trying to shut down free speech.

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Response to ffr (Reply #1)

Thu Mar 15, 2018, 10:16 AM

9. Did countless millions and 600,000 students walk out yesterday as you predicted? If not, exactly...

What answer do we have?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 15, 2018, 11:05 AM

11. I was wrong. It wasn't 600,000 students, it was a 1,000,000 give or take.

Gun-Violence Protests Drew an Estimated 1 Million Students
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210361545

Nearly 1 million students took part in walkout protests Wednesday
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210361544

It's really really nice sometimes to be wrong, when this is the result.

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Response to ffr (Reply #11)

Thu Mar 15, 2018, 12:45 PM

12. i dont see any reference to countless millions in that article, neither is there a source...

For the tally of nearly a million claimed. So, yeah, you’re still wrong.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #12)

Thu Mar 15, 2018, 12:49 PM

13. Unusually negative conclusion for something that would be difficult to quantify

If you are so certain that I am wrong, what is your source listing a quantifiable count to refute my original estimate?

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Response to ffr (Reply #13)

Thu Mar 15, 2018, 01:01 PM

14. Are you claiming youre not wrong on predicting countless millions would walk out?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #14)

Thu Mar 15, 2018, 02:16 PM

15. Nice Red Herring fallacy, but please address my previous proposition Post #9

And while you are at it, why not give me credit where due in post #9?

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Response to ffr (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 15, 2018, 03:16 PM

17. Ummm, you made the claim countless millions would walk out. Where is the evidence this happened?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #17)

Thu Mar 15, 2018, 03:59 PM

18. Another Red Herring diversion. Address my proposition in #9.

You cannot move onto another subject in debate. You can address the question with a rebuttal, but not another diversionary question.

Welcome to D.U.

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Response to ffr (Reply #18)

Thu Mar 15, 2018, 04:43 PM

19. Ah, so no evidence then. Got it.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #19)

Fri Mar 16, 2018, 01:59 PM

21. I can't move on to address your next question until you've rebutted my 1st.

Address my proposition in #9, please.


And welcome to D.U.

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Response to ffr (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 16, 2018, 09:00 PM

23. Not to intrude here but #9 is not your post

You are the one who asserted that 600,000 students would walk out.
You are the one who asserted that millions of others would join those students.

It is up to those making assertions to offer some verification when questioned. I work in a formal regulated environment where verification is taken seriously. The means of verification are practically limited to analysis here.

Further, in #13 you imply that Marengo needs to prove that what you asserted didn't happen. You must realize that proving a negative is impossible.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #23)

Fri Mar 16, 2018, 10:06 PM

24. I see it's now post #11, the one that he replied to. But I rebut your straw man conclusion.

I cannot control D.U. post numbers if they change. It was post #9 previously.

I disputed my own post #1 finding (asserted that 600,000 students would walk out) in post #11, where I clearly say I was wrong. I give references to sources that, in fact, it was closer to a million. What do you want from me? I made an estimate. The estimate as proved inaccurate. I corrected myself by posting a more accurate number of one million, which I didn't come up with, the sources did.

By all accounts, if I remember correctly, from what I'd seen from coverage there were churches, parents, teachers, administrators, mayors, other civil servants, and average workers across the country (myself and other co-workers included) that had planned to walkout or otherwise support the student walkout in the lead-up to the March 14th event. So clearly students weren't the only ones walking out on the 14th AND the number of participants to the walkout would be greater than 1 million. So unless you have something that states otherwise, I think, yeah, there were probably several million people across the nation and the world that walked out -- post #1.

Let me put it to you this way. I don't think there's a line drawn in the sand that when it comes to quantifying the exact number of worldwide participants on anything, an accurate count will be determined, do you? I certainly wouldn't be challenging such assertions without evidence to the contrary. If I did, then it would be logical to conclude that I was simply trying to pick a fight and had no evidence of my own to refute the original assertion. Therefore, I think it's safe to say the estimates match what we saw in media coverage of the March 14th walkout.

Further, in #13 you imply that Marengo needs to prove that what you asserted didn't happen. You must realize that proving a negative is impossible.

Furthermore, your straw man conclusion (setting up and shooting down something I didn't say) incorrectly represents my post #13 proposition: "If you are so certain that I am wrong, what is your source listing a quantifiable count to refute my original estimate?" That clearly states I am looking for evidence from Marengo or someone knowledgeable like yourself, who can show numbers from sources that refute my estimates: media sources, news, etc.

So my rebutting conclusion will be this. I invite you to join Marengo and provide sources listing a quantifiable count to refute my original estimate. Absent of that, I'll stick with my assertions.

Welcome to D.U.

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Response to ffr (Reply #24)

Sat Mar 17, 2018, 08:22 AM

25. Thanks for the belated welcome and welcome to you too

#1 If you are so certain that I am wrong, what is your source listing a quantifiable count to refute my original estimate?

#2 Furthermore, your straw man conclusion...

#3 A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent,


My apologies for inferring that your question (#1 above) was a question of the respondent's source for doubt rather than a demand to prove your assertions incorrect. However, stepping back from the exchange you must certainly see that such a conclusion would be a logical one. I will highlight here that I infer that your respondent simply does not see a sufficiently supported count in the sources you provided.

You did here also incorrectly infer that I made a straw man argument about your part of the exchange. In fact, I was pointing to a possible motivation behind the line of questioning you repeated several times. My applause for your pursuing facts and information an activity which I notice becomes more rare every month among the general population. A small percentage of the population believe things simply because they want to. They think things like somehow government actors took remote control of aircraft on 11 September 2001. More to the point here and as an example, some folks believe and support the use of "control" in the term "gun-control". I do not. I don't offer proof of that.

You say that millions joined the protest or, in various ways, supported the protest. I drew a conclusion from your exchange. It was a logical conclusion not a straw man. It is entirely fine to answer those who question your assertions by explaining those assertions as beliefs. It is also entirely fine to point to a source and make it clear that you accept (or don't accept) that source's reasoning, analysis or other basic data.

People make claims and post their ideas all time here. That's why we're here. Sharing ideas, issues and solutions for problems is why we are here. It's a First Amendment exercise. Bravo.

My interest here was to possibly move this discussion beyond a "did not/did so" series of statements. I didn't supply that information in my reply to you and you assumed that my conclusion was meant as a straw man (see #3).

To the source of this thread, many pro-RKBA Democrats, myself included, often share that in the current political climate a ban on a certain gun or guns in general isn't likely and that it is a better use of political momentum to engage in support of the possible. I worked for over a year (including the 2016 election season) in a rural area of Western PA. I often discussed ideas of politics with people there. I believe it will be more fruitful in future elections to support basic and unarguable regulations that everyone on both sides of this issue can embrace.

Demanding that AR-15s be banned only creates more enemies for Democrats.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #25)

Sat Mar 17, 2018, 12:15 PM

29. A B C

A. I don't care what your background is. It has no relevance to this discussion.
B. I don't care what your stance is on AR-15s, nor your opinion on what it does or doesn't do for democrats. It too has no relevance to my discussion with Marengo or you.
C. Yes, yes, & yes. to #1, #2, & #3. You can dig your heals in and double down that you didn't present a straw man, but it's okay to accept that you did. It may have been by accident, but it shows character when you accept it.

I said to Marengo. "If you are so certain that I am wrong, what is your source listing a quantifiable count to refute my original estimate?"

You rebutted with the straw man: Further, in #13 you imply that Marengo needs to prove that what 1)you asserted didn't happen. 2) You must realize that proving a negative is impossible.

In 1 you set up the straw man, implying something I didn't say or mean and in 2 you shoot down your straw man. I'll let you figure it out. A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent,

No where in my proposition do I assert that he must prove something didn't happen. I'm more than well aware that you cannot prove a negative. That is why I worded my question the way I did.

Like I said, I'm asking him to provide basis for his rebuttal. I'm happy to admit where I may be wrong in over estimating or using fluffy language or if I was just talking out of my ass. But absent of evidence to the contrary, I'll stick by what I said.

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Response to ffr (Reply #29)

Sat Mar 17, 2018, 12:58 PM

32. A B C 1 2 3...

...M O U S E...

The #NeverAgain movement is for real.
"Hence the name: movement. It moves a certain distance, then it stops, you see? A revolution gets its name by always coming back around in your face."

Start a revolution; make a difference. It doesn't have to be a violent revolution. The designated driver campaign was a revolution. Empowering people is the key.

Have a nice day.

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Response to ffr (Reply #21)

Sat Mar 17, 2018, 12:01 PM

28. Youre right, you cant move on as you have nothing to back the prediction countless millions

Would walk out in support. Otherwise you wouldn’t continue to hide behind the assertion of some kind of ridiculous debate rule you’ve manufactured, obviously specific for that purpose.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #28)

Sat Mar 17, 2018, 12:30 PM

30. Do you think it's ridiculous of me to ask that you provide basis for your rebuttal?

My question #13 to you stands.

Please answer the question.

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Response to ffr (Reply #30)

Mon Mar 19, 2018, 07:15 AM

33. LOL! Just as I expected. Im still waiting for a source proving your prediction that countless...

Millions would walk out in support.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #28)

Sat Mar 17, 2018, 12:32 PM

31. Whoops. See my post below. It didn't reply to this post directly. n/t

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Response to Marengo (Reply #14)

Thu Mar 15, 2018, 02:18 PM

16. p.s. Welcome to D.U.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Wed Mar 14, 2018, 02:18 AM

2. In limbo-- where it's been for years...

Face it-- this is a country where a lot of people were brought up with guns as essential parts of the home. Demanding they give up their guns is like asking suburbanites to give up Costco membership or turn in their iPhones. And as far as "protection" goes, dealing with coyotes and rabid raccoons is more on their minds than rapists or robbers.

Very few of them are nutcases joining extremist groups or shooting up schools and churches. Most that I know hate the nutcases as much as we do, and have no more problem with reasonable regulation than they do with car inspections. This 2nd Amendment bullshit just stirs up the crazies.

So, it took us a long time to get to where we are now, and it will take at least as long to get to gun sanity. Let's just make sure we don't take any steps backward as we go on.




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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Wed Mar 14, 2018, 12:03 PM

5. In the larger context,

If Democrats (or any other party) want to win, especially Gen Z, be
pro-gun, pro-pot, don't go to either extreme on abortion, and reject identity politics.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #5)

Wed Mar 14, 2018, 04:24 PM

7. I think you've revealed more about yourself than you intended, on this thread.

And that is not a compliment.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #7)

Wed Mar 14, 2018, 05:25 PM

8. Two things,

One, I read polls and I don't live in an echo chamber. There is a difference between making an observation and advocating.
Two, I have always made it clear that I am a liberal and not a progressive. I also said that I supported Jim Webb in the primary. I'm sure if you search, you will find it. I have always made it clear that I supported moderate Democrats like Ryan Greene and Brian Schweitzer.

Members are not expected to hold across-the-board progressive opinions on every single issue, but we do expect members to be generally progressive and to support Democrats at election time -- remember that and respect it when posting. Harsh, divisive, partisan attacks against Democrats or progressive values (from the right or the left) are not welcome here.


I am not attacking from the right or left, I am defending liberal values from both the right and extreme left. I have always been clear about my disdain for the postmodernist/neo-Marxist left and free speech hating anarcho-communists. I have always made it clear that they are cancer just as the religious right and the alt-right. I also made it clear in the past that identity politics divisive and denies individuals agency.

If you have a problem with that, I don't care.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 15, 2018, 10:17 AM

10. What has been revealed?

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Response to Paladin (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 15, 2018, 05:22 PM

20. I think you've revealed more about yourself than you intended, with that post

And that, too, is not a compliment...

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Fri Mar 16, 2018, 04:14 PM

22. In the shitter?

Hopefully our party will elect more pro gun Democrats.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2018, 08:51 AM

26. what is said and done during a campaign usually doesn't lead to same policies once in office

besides, Lamb and other "pro-gun" democrats never say they will not support reasonable gun laws..Democrats can not morph into "anti-gun" but into "reasonable gun controls"...a whole slew of measures that majority of americans will support and thats the side we must be on. Not some "total anti-gun fringe".

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Response to beachbum bob (Reply #26)

Sat Mar 17, 2018, 09:33 AM

27. Lamb favored stricter background checks

Which reads "they're taking away our guns!!!" to the NRA crowd. I have no problem with Lamb's position.

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