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Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:10 AM

Police lives are put at risk by a country awash in guns

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-off-duty-officer-shot-downtown-20180213-story.html

Chicago police commander gunned down pursuing a suspect

Cmdr. Paul Bauer, 53, was shot to death at the Thompson Center after chasing a man fleeing from tactical officers who tried to stop him, police officials said. Bauer confronted the man, who opened fire as the two struggled, killing the 31-year department veteran, according to police officials and other sources. Bauer had been in the area after attending “active shooter” training, which prepares officers for mass shootings. He also had a meeting with aldermen scheduled for later in the day.

Officers recovered a gun from the man, who was wearing a protective vest, according to a source.

Bauer, a married father of a 13-year-old daughter, is the first Chicago cop shot and killed since 2011, and he is the highest-ranking officer killed in decades.

The incident briefly pitched the heart of Chicago’s business and governmental district into turmoil


Some may wish to talk about the perpetrator's criminal history. Perhaps that is an issue that needs to be examined.

But an equal or bigger issue is that the perpetrator had a gun. Why did he have a gun? Because our country is awash in guns. For three main reasons:
- Gun manufacturers make money from guns and have bought the GOP.
- GOP politicians and propagandists have exploited guns to divide America to get votes for their pro-billionaire polities.
- Individual gun owners put their own hobby above people in America's cities getting killed by guns.




Here is the man killed.



RIP.

47 replies, 1400 views

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Arrow 47 replies Author Time Post
Reply Police lives are put at risk by a country awash in guns (Original post)
sharedvalues Feb 14 OP
efhmc Feb 14 #1
NorenForSenateNY Feb 14 #2
sharedvalues Feb 14 #3
fleabiscuit Feb 14 #4
demosincebirth Feb 14 #6
EX500rider Feb 15 #22
fleabiscuit Feb 16 #23
EX500rider Feb 16 #24
fleabiscuit Feb 16 #25
fleabiscuit Feb 16 #26
gejohnston Feb 16 #30
fleabiscuit Feb 16 #31
gejohnston Feb 16 #32
fleabiscuit Feb 16 #33
EX500rider Feb 16 #34
fleabiscuit Feb 16 #35
EX500rider Feb 16 #41
EX500rider Feb 16 #42
fleabiscuit Saturday #43
sharedvalues Feb 16 #37
Canoe52 Feb 14 #11
Eliot Rosewater Feb 14 #16
Marengo Feb 14 #17
friendly_iconoclast Feb 14 #18
oneshooter Feb 16 #36
sharedvalues Feb 16 #38
friendly_iconoclast Sunday #45
friendly_iconoclast Tuesday #46
marble falls Feb 14 #20
demosincebirth Feb 14 #5
efhmc Feb 14 #7
SeattleVet Feb 14 #9
Kablooie Feb 14 #8
Hangingon Feb 14 #15
friendly_iconoclast Feb 14 #19
NCDem777 Feb 14 #10
sharedvalues Feb 14 #13
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 14 #14
NCDem777 Feb 14 #21
SunSeeker Feb 14 #12
DetlefK Feb 16 #27
sharedvalues Feb 16 #39
PoindexterOglethorpe Feb 16 #28
no_hypocrisy Feb 16 #29
sharedvalues Feb 16 #40
friendly_iconoclast Saturday #44
yagotme Tuesday #47

Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:15 AM

1. There is a god awful waste of humans in this country

because we will not address our gun scourge.

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:29 AM

2. Tragic but keep an open mind

Very very tragic..I do however think we have the right to defend ourselves against criminals and public nutjobs with guns. I am a victim of gun violence being held up at gunpoint. I just think it's not something to be all or none with ownership and carry laws.

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Response to NorenForSenateNY (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:31 AM

3. Yes! If the policeman only had a gun he would not have died!

Oh, right. He did have a gun. He's a police officer. His fellow police officers had guns too.

Guess what? More guns means more deaths. You'll never 'stop' the guy who shoots first.

We want to reduce gun violence in America? Reduce guns, full stop.

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:41 AM

4. Yes.

Countries with larger percentages of guns in citizens possession have more gun deaths. Not only do statistics show it, it just seems obvious to thinking people.

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Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:51 AM

6. thank the evil NRA and the weak thinking of their followers.

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Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 15, 2018, 01:27 PM

22. Actually it looks more like there is no correlation:

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 01:31 AM

23. Perhaps we should strive to compare the US to other modern economies.

America’s unique gun violence problem, explained in 17 maps and charts VOX
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

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Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 01:46 AM

24. Since the entire US homicide rate by any means is under 5..

...I assume your chart includes suicides, which is a different problem and not really related to gun violence since countries with few guns like Japan and Korea have a higher rate then the US.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 01:58 AM

25. LOL

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:09 AM

26. Perhaps you would like a state by state view?

Just scroll the story...

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Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:20 AM

30. which includes suicide by firearm,

60 percent of all gun deaths are suicide, and that is only about half of all suicides. The dark side of this bullshit is that it is also saying "we don't care that they died, only that they were shot."

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:43 AM

31. Ya, that's not gun violence at all.

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Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #31)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:01 PM

32. so the other half is rope violence?

Here is the problem. Policies based on emotion, logical fallacies and disinformation are are always a bad idea.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:26 PM

33. I think I"m mostly agreeing with you.

Suicide is a terrible thing. IMHO there is no denying easy access to guns helps facilitate and exacerbate the action. It is a violent action that is most likely to succeed. It's right in the literature.

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Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:38 PM

34. Again, homicide and suicide are different things that will require different solutions.

The homicide rate by firearms is around 3.6 per 100,000

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #34)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:50 PM

35. Go with what makes you feel better. nt

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Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:55 PM

41. Inflate the numbers if it makes you feel better.

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Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 10:07 PM

42. If jumping off a bridge isn't bridge violence and hanging yourself isn't rope violence..

....then shooting yourself isn't gun violence.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #42)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 03:03 PM

43. WHO, nt

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Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:32 PM

37. Love this chart. The NYT did it too.

Australia and Canada put the lie to NRA stats. Fewer guns, fewer deaths. See the chart.

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 02:32 AM

11. +1 nt

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Response to NorenForSenateNY (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:55 AM

16. If all guns were locked away in militia buildings as the Constitution suggests

most cops could go around without guns let alone citizens.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #16)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 01:19 PM

17. If this was the original intent, can you provide examples where it was enforced?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 03:31 PM

18. Got an Encylopedia Britanica handy? You'll have finished reading it before you get an answer...

In that posters' defense, that meme isn't *quite* as dimwitted as the persistent calls for
mandatory insurance for gun ownership...

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #16)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:16 PM

36. Would you please show me what passage of the Constitution that is in? n/t

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #16)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:32 PM

38. Yup. As they do in other countries.

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #38)

Sun Feb 18, 2018, 12:51 AM

45. Which countries would that be?

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #45)

Tue Feb 20, 2018, 04:38 AM

46. As typical with that one, no answer when challenged...

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Response to NorenForSenateNY (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 06:44 PM

20. I was held at gun point. My though wasn't 'why don't I have a pistol', but 'how did the 16yr old...

gunman get one?'

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:47 AM

5. Shouldn't police officers be on the forefront of gun control - and why aren't they?

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:51 AM

7. They often are but are not listen to.

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 01:28 AM

9. The rank-and-file tend to be very pro-2nd Amendment ...

and less restrictive access to firearms. The brass (more political appointees) tends to be in favor of more restrictions.

Been that way for as long as I can remember.

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 01:17 AM

8. A small price to pay so a subset of Americans can have fun shooting up cans and signs.

Their fun is more important than the lives of police or children.

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Response to Kablooie (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 10:15 AM

15. The shooter was a 4 time felon who illegally had a gun.

This fact has been ignored in the rush to demean legal gun owners. No way to get votes.

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Response to Hangingon (Reply #15)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 03:41 PM

19. If you familiarize yourself with the OP's, ahem, "body of work", a question naturally arises:

Is it a case of:



Or merely:



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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 01:49 AM

10. But they vote for the more gunnnnz people

 

because the GOP promises to make those brown folks shut up about police accountability and they can go back to planting guns on anyone they want to make sport of.

They deserve to be shot at.

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Response to NCDem777 (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 07:53 AM

13. No. Bad apples need to be punished

But on the whole most police are trying to do the right thing.

We need to take military arms away from police departments,

Make sure to hold individual cops responsible for wrongdoing (need independent investigations and prosecution of police misconduct),

And then support the police as a whole so they can return to “protect and serve”.



We will help nothing if we hate all police, and we will further divide the country.

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 08:09 AM

14. There's a few things I can agree with. n/t

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 09:41 PM

21. Nope. They brought this on themselves

 

Police consistently vote for gun nut Republicans. They elect union officials who consistently endorse them. Even as Republicans make it easier and easier for psychos to get arsenals and wink wink nudge nudge at the cop killing Sovereign Citizens.

Why? Because they got their little fee fees hurt by POC saying they shouldn't be allowed to investigate themselves.

They brought this on themselves.

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 03:21 AM

12. K & R

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:17 AM

27. Meanwhile they hold gun-raffles to push more guns into the population.

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #27)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:32 PM

39. Some of them do. Many police are good people.

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:45 AM

28. Not just police lives.

High school students. Toddlers. Lots of random people.

In fact, without bothering to do any research, I suspect that police make up the smallest demographic of those killed by guns.

But police understand, or at least they had fucking well better understand, that the job they've undertaken has risks.

I don't think going to school should have similar risks. I really don't.

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:35 AM

29. Could this fact be one of the reasons why the federal government is pushing municipalities

to purchase retired military hardware like tanks, etc.? Is this the only way to "out-gun" criminals?

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #29)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:34 PM

40. Yes that's exactly the justification given. If we banned handguns and semi-autos we could

argue for reduced militarization too.



An example of this stupid argument
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-le-1214-sunday-police-militarization-20141214-story.html

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #40)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 04:33 PM

44. Ahem: Australian cops upgun: "(Victoria) Police set sights on faster reloading guns"

https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x314775

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-04-30/police-set-sights-on-faster-reloading-guns/416062?site=gippsland

Police set sights on faster reloading guns

The Police Superintendent in East Gippsland says new semi-automatic pistols will enable police officers to better defend themselves in a shoot-out.

The Victorian Government has awarded a $7 million contract to replace police revolvers with semi-automatic pistols.

The police union had previously claimed an officer in Melbourne was shot in the leg while reloading a revolver during a shoot-out in 2008.

Superintendent Geoff Newby says the new semi-automatic pistols will improve police safety when they arrive later this year.

"Well they'll have 15 shots before they need to reload as opposed to previously they would've had to have taken some form of reload action after six shots and of course during that time we're trained to do that at reasonable speed, under pressure that can take a little while and put you at risk, so from a safety aspect we're very pleased that we've got that option," he said....


https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/victoria-police-switches-to-semiautomatic-weapons-20100429-tt44.html

Victoria Police officers will no longer carry revolvers as it switches to rapid-firing semi-automatic weapons.

Deputy Commissioner Kieran Walshe this morning revealed police would be rearmed with .40 calibre Smith & Wesson M & P (military and police) semi-automatic pistols...

...South Australian Police have been using Smith & Wesson semi-automatics since last year.


The reader will note that this happened fourteen years after the Australian gun confiscations oft touted
by the OP. Which raises a couple of questions for me:

1. Does this mean that the gun buyback didn't actually work?

2. And if that buyback did work as claimed, does it mean that cops will always want the newest and shiniest thing
that goes bang, the opinions of would-be social engineers notwithstanding?





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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #44)

Tue Feb 20, 2018, 09:39 PM

47. Hmmm,

"The police union had previously claimed an officer in Melbourne was shot in the leg while reloading a revolver during a shoot-out in 2008."

That's a neat trick. Wonder how he managed to do that? And you're going to give the same guys semi autos????

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