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Sat Aug 27, 2016, 09:43 AM

Gun Control has devolved to absolute fabrication

They have literally retreated to their safe space that permits no debate in order to write complete works of fiction to where they set the terms of the debate, make themselves the hero, and insert whatever statements they want to make their counterparts appear foolish. They then pile in to congratulate themselves and grouse about having to defend their positions.

It's breathtaking just how sad this really is.

And though they will deny it, the debate isn't about the sky being blue, it's about their rose-colored glasses.

There is even a complaint about the posting of articles discussing string theory in physics, so deep is the epistemological closure.

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Arrow 90 replies Author Time Post
Reply Gun Control has devolved to absolute fabrication (Original post)
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2016 OP
Duckhunter935 Aug 2016 #1
krispos42 Aug 2016 #2
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2016 #3
Duckhunter935 Aug 2016 #5
Duckhunter935 Aug 2016 #4
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #36
krispos42 Sep 2016 #44
JonathanRackham Aug 2016 #6
Lurks Often Aug 2016 #7
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2016 #8
Lurks Often Aug 2016 #11
DonP Aug 2016 #10
sarisataka Aug 2016 #9
Duckhunter935 Aug 2016 #18
beevul Aug 2016 #12
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #37
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #39
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #41
ileus Aug 2016 #13
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2016 #14
NaturalHigh Aug 2016 #15
jmg257 Aug 2016 #16
beevul Aug 2016 #17
pablo_marmol Aug 2016 #19
Straw Man Aug 2016 #20
pablo_marmol Aug 2016 #21
beergood Sep 2016 #24
pablo_marmol Sep 2016 #26
scscholar Sep 2016 #27
pablo_marmol Sep 2016 #28
beevul Sep 2016 #29
Duckhunter935 Sep 2016 #30
beergood Sep 2016 #32
pablo_marmol Sep 2016 #33
DonP Sep 2016 #45
benEzra Sep 2016 #53
scscholar Sep 2016 #56
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #57
DonP Sep 2016 #59
benEzra Sep 2016 #68
beevul Sep 2016 #58
pablo_marmol Sep 2016 #60
benEzra Sep 2016 #67
Kang Colby Sep 2016 #22
beevul Sep 2016 #23
pablo_marmol Sep 2016 #31
beergood Sep 2016 #25
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #34
beergood Sep 2016 #71
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #72
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #35
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #38
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #40
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #42
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #43
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #48
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #52
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #54
DonP Sep 2016 #55
pablo_marmol Sep 2016 #62
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #66
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2016 #69
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #73
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2016 #79
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #81
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2016 #84
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #70
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #74
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #75
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #76
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #77
gejohnston Sep 2016 #78
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #80
beevul Sep 2016 #82
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #83
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #85
gejohnston Sep 2016 #86
beevul Sep 2016 #87
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #88
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2016 #89
beevul Sep 2016 #90
pablo_marmol Sep 2016 #61
DonP Sep 2016 #63
pablo_marmol Sep 2016 #65
pablo_marmol Sep 2016 #46
beevul Sep 2016 #47
DonP Sep 2016 #49
Duckhunter935 Sep 2016 #51
NaturalHigh Sep 2016 #50
Eleanors38 Sep 2016 #64

Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 09:51 AM

1. I have seen that and laugh

 

when I check that one out. Usually the same for posters.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 10:22 AM

2. A jury removed a post of mine because I stated that Bill Clinton signed major gun legislation

That fact was considered a RW smear.

Fortunately, the appeal process worked, and it was reversed.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 10:25 AM

3. Recounting the fact Bill Clinton signed a law they want reenacted is a RW smear?

All this tells me is they are embarrassed by their own morality.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #3)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 10:36 AM

5. I agree

 

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 10:35 AM

4. I like the appeal process

 

Had one of my senseless hides reversed also. Nice check and balance.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #2)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 10:14 PM

36. That is ridiculous.

it should have been reversed.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #36)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 10:35 PM

44. It was, thankfully.

But the idea that a jury would deny objective facts...

I mean, despite the fact that the AWB and the magazine limit did nothing measurable to reduce crime, in terms of getting it passed through Congress and signed into law was a Big Deal... and is still both touted and used by many as an example of what future legislating should look like.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 10:38 AM

6. Given enough manure a bad idea will grow.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/home/index.php

Almost like discussing climate change science with Republicans. The science and statistics are there but the logic isn't comprehended.

Eyes wide shut.

Argument based upon emotion.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 11:07 AM

7. They really are pathetic, but the lies are all they have

 

They've invested so much of themselves into the concept of supporting gun control that they are no longer capable of admitting even to themselves that they could possibly be wrong.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #7)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 11:15 AM

8. I don't want to get into the habit of doing what they do: Congratulating ourselves

I want to have the debates. I want to test assertions and hunt the facts.

The other OP is nothing more than a tirade against the process itself because the process doesn't produce the results they anticipated. That should give us all a moment of pause to consider the implications of that.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #8)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 01:28 PM

11. Agreed n/t

 

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #7)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 11:55 AM

10. Well, lies and misplaced hope

 

Last edited Sat Aug 27, 2016, 03:14 PM - Edit history (1)

They are always looking forward to that "next election", or next court appointment that will magically make all their gun control dreams come true, with no real effort beyond online blathering on their part of course.

(If I counted correctly; six National election cycles since DU was created and it still hasn't happened once - stupid, stupid Democracy!

"Just "X" more Senators, Representatives, Judges etc. is all they need" ... to get approval to have doors kicked in and guns either confiscated or turned in with lengthy prison terms for disobedient gun owners.

Then, when it doesn't happen for the obvious reasons, it must be somebody's fault, usually ours.

"Lies and misplaced hope". But at least it might make a nice T-Shirt for them?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 11:23 AM

9. I find it especially ironic

That the pinned post immediately above that post is
The SOP defines this group as about ACTIVISM


The only ACTIVISM to be found is actively complaining that others don't accept their claims as the Word of Dog interspaced with hosts high-5 each other over a "victory" such as a pro-gc editorial or a Gun Control group backing a pro-gc Republican.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #9)

Mon Aug 29, 2016, 07:17 PM

18. I know, right, lol

 

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 03:03 PM

12. Change a few words...

 

They have literally retreated to their safe space that permits no debate in order to write complete works of fiction to where they set the terms of the debate, make themselves the hero, and insert whatever statements they want to make their counterparts appear foolish. They then pile in to congratulate themselves and grouse about having to defend their positions.


Change a few words, and that describes that groups SOP as practiced, which doesn't speak well for the courage of their convictions at all.

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Response to beevul (Reply #12)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 10:16 PM

37. That description also holds for another group at DU. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #37)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 10:24 PM

39. Which group would that be seeing as this group welcomes debate?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #39)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 10:27 PM

41. Agreed. But I was talking about another group.

As a person who feels strongly that more gun regulation is needed, I feel welcome here. I welcome debate.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Sat Aug 27, 2016, 03:11 PM

13. Just look at who is behind the controllers....and what motivates them.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Sun Aug 28, 2016, 08:44 AM

14. Not to be contrary but...

...'gun-control', in the sense of regulation and laws, has always been fabrication. The idea of control in a society of free people is an oxymoron. I've said many times that control is a myth. Apart what science makes possible, the only real people control is self-control.

The best and most beneficial government based crime prevention efforts are those which empower the individual and remove barriers to freedom and equality.

Violence is not caused by a tool. It's a stupid idea to blame a baseball bat for bludgeoning or to think that a ban will help. Bludgeoning is illegal. Assault is illegal. Murder is illegal. Is there anyone out there that doesn't laugh at that concept of "double-secret probation" in the movie Animal House?

Once you've become enamored with the idea that "the good people" (meaning those that agree with you) can somehow stop "the bad people" from doing bad things and "make them good", you're into a rabbit hole while huffing glue with Harry Potter's wand in your pocket.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2016, 02:38 PM

15. I think it went that way a long time ago...

at least by the time Bloomberg really got his group spinning.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2016, 04:32 PM

16. You can tell its successful by ALL the activism taking root over there.

All you have to do is 'Vote Democrat! and fight the NRA' which (in a new meme) is some huge juggernaut of domestic terrorism that just can't be controlled.

Though it is even "acknowledged that much of the gun violence is gang-related as are many of the mass-shooting incidents", apparently targeting the NRA (and its apologists - whatever THAT is, who the fuck apologizes for the NRA???) is easier then targeting the actual gangs who are responsible for so much of the violence.

Guess blaming the NRA and old white guys makes for a better sound bite.

Anyway, we are just a ban or 2 away from...what they couldn't tell you...

"A legitimate criticism of the article is that even if modest gun control legislation were to be enacted, it would probably have little effect on the shooting violence level in America; at least in the short term."





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Response to jmg257 (Reply #16)

Mon Aug 29, 2016, 05:36 PM

17. 69 or 70.

 

Anyway, we are just a ban or 2 away from...what they couldn't tell you...


They're a ban or two away from 69 or 70.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2016, 10:51 PM

19. Those yutz's are simply following the lead of early Controllers........

........as "gun control" has involved absolute fabrication from day one.

The first moral panic I recall involved the non-existent "plastic gun". The Glock that supposedly could pass undetected through airport screening ----- even though it had more than ten times the metal required to set off metal detectors, and the X-ray technology of the day had no trouble picking up it's outline. What a national disgrace that a ban of "plastic guns" actually made it through Congress. And a decade (or more) after Democrats stopped talking about this non-threat, Rachel Maddow attacked Dick Cheney for voting against the legislation.

The stupid is damn embarrassing, and damn politically costly.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #19)

Tue Aug 30, 2016, 12:47 AM

20. Agreed.

The first moral panic I recall involved the non-existent "plastic gun". The Glock that supposedly could pass undetected through airport screening ----- even though it had more than ten times the metal required to set off metal detectors, and the X-ray technology of the day had no trouble picking up it's outline. What a national disgrace that a ban of "plastic guns" actually made it through Congress. And a decade (or more) after Democrats stopped talking about this non-threat, Maddow attacked Dick Cheney for voting against the legislation.

I remember that segment. It began like this ...

We begin tonight with a question: what if you had a gun that was entirely made of plastic, where all the components of the gun were high strength enough so the gun would function as a gun, but none of it was metal, so it wouldn‘t be detected by metal detectors?

... and continued to cleverly evade the fact that no such gun exists. Oh, so Glock has "said" that they have the technology to make one? Then why, almost thirty years after this piece of farcical legislation, have we still not seen one?

Kudos to Congress for banning something that doesn't exist. I supposed we could call that "being proactive."

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #20)

Tue Aug 30, 2016, 01:10 AM

21. That entire Maddow rant was so chock-full of BS that it would take many pages

to correct all of the misdirection/misinformation. I've actually considered posting a link to the transcript of that segment for the purpose of a 'group fisking'.

Edited to add link to transcript --- easy date to remember, actually:

http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/rachel-maddow-show/2011-01-11

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #21)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 07:56 PM

24. wow

what a load of shit, plastic guns and cop killer bullets are pure hollywood bullshit. any rifle round can penetrate soft body armor. my understanding is that level ll armour only protects against pistol caliber rounds. most pistol ammunition (and '00' Buckshot) – NIJ Threat Level II-A, II, and III-A – the regular 3 to 6 lb. soft body armor vest (~1.8 - 2.7 kg.)
http://www.bulletproofme.com/How_to_Select_Body_Armor.shtml

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Response to beergood (Reply #24)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 08:35 PM

26. Yeah.......she truly is pathetic on the "gun control"/gun violence subject.

She always had two go-to know-nothing "experts" on her show whenever she was blathering on this issue --- Richard Wolfe and E.J. Dionne. Haven't watched her in years. (Regarding the particular choice of those two - thanks a bunch for reinforcing the image of the self-righteous-in-ignorance/smug/aloof liberal, Ms. Maddow!)

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Response to beergood (Reply #24)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 08:41 PM

27. So you think NJ's ban on cop-killer hollowpoints is BS? No.

 

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Response to scscholar (Reply #27)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 08:55 PM

28. The descriptor 'cop-killer hollowpoints' is PURE BS. **YES**


Attempt to lie all you want. Your dog no longer hunts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon-coated_bullet

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Response to scscholar (Reply #27)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 08:59 PM

29. Yes, its BS. "cop-killer hollowpoints" is exactly the kind of absolute fabrication the OP refers to.

 

BTW, the hollow points banned in NJ are every bit as likely if not more likely, to be stopped by a vest.

That's why its BS.

Once in a while, I'd love to see one of you come and try to defend this stupidity, but we both know you wont because its indefensible.

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Response to scscholar (Reply #27)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 09:05 PM

30. What's a cop killer hollowpoint?

 

You mean the ones that are much less likely to penetrate the lightest body armor?

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Response to scscholar (Reply #27)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 09:14 PM

32. do you even know what a hollowpoint is?

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Response to beergood (Reply #32)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 09:20 PM

33. He/she is likely unaware that cops went to hollowpoints.........


to AVOID over-penetration! They discovered that when they upgraded from .38 to .357, the full-metal jacket .357 round was going right through bad guys and hitting cops behind them.

The derp is strong with The Controllers.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #33)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 11:04 PM

45. But, but, they saw it on a bumper sticker!

 

So it must be true!

Besides, they got a bunch of mailers from Bloomberg's Everytown telling them all about how deadly those imaginary bullets were.

Just one more fact based issue they are proud to totally ignorant about.

Now they can run back to Bansalot and tell everyone how gun owners don't care about the police lives, since we don't care about banning bullets that don't really exist.

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Response to scscholar (Reply #27)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 04:45 PM

53. "Cop-killer bullets" and "hollowpoints" are opposite concepts.

So-called "cop-killer bullets" were very hard nonexpanding, pointed-tip handgun bullets designed for police, to penetrate sheet metal and glass without deforming; they were restricted out of fear that they might allow a handgun to penetrate soft body armor that would otherwise be rated to stop that caliber of handgun.

Hollowpoints are relatively soft, fragile bullets designed to open up like a parachute to make them penetrate *less*, thereby transferring more energy to the target and reducing the risk of overpenetration/ricochet. This coincidentally reduces their ability to penetrate soft body armor somewhat.

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Response to benEzra (Reply #53)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 09:22 PM

56. If all of that is true, then...

 

why are they banned like in NJ?

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Response to scscholar (Reply #56)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 10:03 PM

57. Because NJ passed a pointless law based on a non-existent panic.

In NJ it's also illegal for car dealerships to be open in Sundays.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 11:24 PM

59. Or pump your own gas

 

Basic philosophy seems to be mere citizens can't be trusted.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #57)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 05:29 PM

68. Actually, hollowpoints are legal in NJ. THe rest of your post stands, though.

NJ certainly has a penchant for letting moralistic busybodies run other people's lives for them.

That isn't limited to NJ; when I was in Boston years ago for my son's second and third heart surgeries, I was shocked to find out that by law, most stores were required to close on Sunday.

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Response to scscholar (Reply #56)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 10:45 PM

58. Because of people who were fed misinformation, which led them to support the proposed laws.

 

People like you.

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Response to scscholar (Reply #56)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 10:51 AM

60. Same reason that "assault weapons" are demonized.

Same reason that legislation was passed banning non-existent "plastic guns".

Same reason that ballistic fingerprinting was/is considered a great idea.

Same reason that "studies" by Arthur Kellerman and David Hemenway are still cited as gospel.

People like you -- who are the left's equivalent of Fox Noise viewers -- will gobble up any nonsense that's fed to them.

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Response to scscholar (Reply #56)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 05:22 PM

67. Hollowpoints aren't banned in NJ (or to my knowledge, anywhere else).

NJ bans many of the most popular civilian guns in the nation and largely restricts carry licenses to the rich and politically connected or their staff, but even NJ doesn't ban hollowpoint or softpoint ammunition. Some jurisdictions may give you extra hassle if you stop for lunch or to go to the bathroom on the way to/from a shooting range if you have hollowpoint ammunition in the trunk of your car, and accidentally leaving some in the trunk after your trip could land you in prison, but it's completely legal to purchase, shoot at a range, hunt with, or load your home-defense gun with.

NJ law is fixated on the term "sportsmen" like it's 1950, but if you can get past that, here's the law:

http://www.njsp.org/firearms/transport-hollowpoint.shtml

Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
1. A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
2. A person going directly to a target range, and;
3. A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."

As with other ammunition and firearms, a sportsman would have to comply with the provisions of N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f and g when transporting hollow nose ammunition to a target range. The ammunition should be stored in a closed and fastened container or locked in the trunk of the motor vehicle in which it is being transported. The course of travel should be as direct as possible when going to and leaving from the target range with "only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances." N.J.S.A 2C:39-6g.

If the sportsman's club member plans to hunt with a rifle and use hollow nose ammunition in a state where this is permitted, he must comply with the provisions of U.S.C.A. 926A and N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f) and (6)(g), which is consistent with the federal law, in transporting the firearm and ammunition. The firearm should be unloaded and neither the firearm nor the ammunition should be readily accessible from the passenger compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the firearm and the ammunition should be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or the console. 18 U.S.C.A. 926A.

In addition, the sportsman should have a valid hunting license in his possession from the state in which he plans to hunt and should be familiar with that state's gun laws. N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f)(2) requires a person hunting in this State to have a valid hunting license in his possession while traveling to or from the hunting area. Hunting with hollow nose ammunition is permitted in New Jersey. In the case of a New Jersey resident traveling to another state to hunt, it logically would follow that the hunting license would be from the state where the hunter is going. Although the federal statute does not require possession of a hunting license, it does require that the person transporting the firearm be going to a state where possession of that object is lawful. A valid hunting license from that state effectively supplies the proof.

These conditions for use and transport of hollow nose ammunition are consistent with the legislative intent to restrict the use of such ammunition to a limited number of people. It is well established that in construing a statute exceptions are to be "strictly but reasonably construed, consistent with the manifest reason and purpose of the law." Service Armament Co. v. Hyland, 70 N.J. 550, 558-559 (1976). The State Supreme Court has "characterized the Gun Control Law as 'highly purposed and conscientiously designed toward preventing criminal and other unfit elements from acquiring firearms while enabling the fit elements of society to obtain them with minimal burdens.'" Id. at 559.


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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 06:31 PM

22. Gun control is a joke.

"Just say no" to more gun control.

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Response to Kang Colby (Reply #22)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 07:16 PM

23. A bad joke...

 

As of late.

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Response to Kang Colby (Reply #22)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 09:10 PM

31. "Just say no" to more gun control.


SIR! YES SIR!!!

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 08:26 PM

25. "There is even a complaint about the posting of articles discussing string theory in physics"

that's my fault, i posted those articles. i couldn't pass up the challenge to disprove gravity or the sky being blue. im a bit of a dick and like to troll.

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Response to beergood (Reply #25)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 09:51 PM

34. But you posted a perfectly legitimate scientific article.

All that tells us is that your interlocutor will even reject science in the name of a political agenda.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #34)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 07:32 PM

71. my apologies

what was your op referring to? i thought you were referring to my posts.

we've all been guilty of rejecting facts in order to support our beliefs.

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Response to beergood (Reply #71)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 07:43 PM

72. I referred to the reference to your posts as made by your detractor.

Your citation of the science articles was perfectly legitimate which is what makes your detractor's complaints so dismaying.

It's hard to imagine a more telling example of someone -- your detractor -- taking only preliminary facts, drawing sweeping conclusions based on that limited knowledge then assuming absolute epistemological closure when newer/more complete facts become available.

If I wanted to create a caricature of an opponent to make them seem foolish and easily defeated I could not create one akin to what we see displayed and still make that caricature believable. Yet, here he has done it to himself -- and he has ironically done so in service to an effort to make us look ideologically close-minded.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 10:13 PM

35. If I look at the sky through rose-colored glasses it appears purple.

SO what is it, blue or purple?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #35)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 10:22 PM

38. It's a meaningless metaphor.

I can just as easily cite a conventional fact wholly unrelated to the discussion at hand -- compasses pointing North, for example -- and claim that proves gun control advocates are bull-headed and impervious to facts.

So why do you deny compasses point North?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #38)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 10:25 PM

40. Because they do not.

Not accurately at least. That holds true south of the Equator. Compasses with different weighting are used in the Southern hemisphere.

There are no meaningless metaphors, just misunderstood metaphors.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #40)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 10:29 PM

42. According to the poster I cited in my OP

you're now engaged in arguing against what all right thinking people understand as accepted fact.

That would seem to make you more damaging to his/your cause than mine.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #42)

Mon Sep 5, 2016, 10:32 PM

43. I prefer proven fact to accepted fact.

Flat earth theory was once accepted as fact.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #43)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 07:09 AM

48. And I believe you, which is why its so disappointing to see you so determined to align with a group

Last edited Tue Sep 6, 2016, 09:44 AM - Edit history (1)

that openly declares facts and arguing from facts to be anathema to their cause.

You accept self-defense is a right. You prefer facts and data over blindly accepting whatever someone else feeds you. I'm wondering how much distance is left between us.

Would it surprise you to learn that RKBA advocates also prefer to keep guns away from convicted violent criminals and would like to see substantive strategies that reduce the number of suicides and negligent discharges?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #48)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 02:30 PM

52. A question. When you said:

Would it surprise you to learn that RKBA advocates also prefer to keep guns away from convicted violent criminals and would like to see substantive strategies that reduce the number of suicides and negligent discharges?

The obvious follow up question is :
How?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #52)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 04:50 PM

54. I'm going to say some things but don't take my word for it. Poll my fellow RKBA advocates.

I'm not comfortable speaking for anyone but myself but I do believe I will fairly represent most everyone else and I invite you to ask them.

* We support the background system found in NICS and would like to see it expanded to allow private sellers to check on their own.

* We would like to see better funding and management of NICS as many of the more high profile incidents were a gun was purchased through a FFL slipped through the system because of failure to report/track a disqualified individual.

* Better mental health care for those in danger of suicide.

* Maintain or increase penalties for those who knowingly make transfers to disqualified persons.

* Confront inner city poverty that drives young people into the gangs that fuel the majority of the drugs and crimes involving guns. Considering a significant/tragic percentage of the inner city youth have criminal records that destroy their prospects of a better life it seems that having more life destroying laws will only perpetuate the iron pipeline

* re-examine the war on drugs (speaking of how prohibitions don't work)

I'm certain I've overlooked an idea or two.

These aren't just red herrings tossed out to muddy the waters. You've already seen the links showing 2/3 of gun deaths are suicides. Of the remaining 40% of criminal gun uses the overwhelming majority are by those with established criminal histories. The "virgin killer" just snapping one day is pretty much a myth.

A gun is just a thing, it only fires if the person holding it intentionally makes it fire or there is negligence. For those who intentionally act with malicious/hurtful purpose we need to stop them before it rises to the level of violence. In the case of negligence we need better awareness akin to the campaign to stop drunk drivers and make that sort of recklessness socially unacceptable.

In return RKBA advocates ask for very little apart from things such as interstate reciprocity and no bans based on presumption of guilt.

Again, I invite you to not take my word for it. Please ask the others.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #54)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 05:07 PM

55. Second on the serious time for gun crimes and follow up on straw sales

 

Most of the state rifle associations I have contact with, support stricter sentences for crimes involving guns. Preferably with mandatory multi-years sentence minimums for repeat offenders.

Right now, if you attempt a straw buy, all that usually happens is you get denied and walk away, unless you have an outstanding warrant that pops up. These should all be investigated and prosecuted.

Part of the problem in Chicago is, criminals getting an early release to the street because gun crimes are plea bargained away as a first step. So you have criminals back on the street in a few weeks rejoining their gang and having a gun.

(FYI: The average time from a gun being stolen to being used in a crime is 6 and 1/2 years now. Most of our crime guns come from right here in Illinois 67%, Mississippi is second at 18% and Indiana/Wisconsin are tied for a distant 4th place. Source: Illinois State Police Crime Guns Report, 2015)

The legislature tried to pass stricter sentencing laws in 2013 and it got blocked by the Illinois Black Legislative Caucus in committee. They offered no alternatives.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-11-08/news/ct-met-illinois-legislature-emanuel-guns-1108-20131108_1_gun-bill-gun-legislation-lawmakers

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #54)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 11:06 AM

62. I'll "third" these ideas.


Can't find fault with anything mentioned in the above well-stated post.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #54)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 05:13 PM

66. I understand that these are your personal views that may be shared. On that:

First, I would modify this:
* We support the background system found in NICS and would like to see it expanded to allow private sellers to check on their own.
to say this:
* We support the background system found in NICS and would like to see it expanded to require private sellers to check on their own. Including sales to family members.

And I agree with much of what you said as to the causes of gun violence.

Now, what about careless gun owners? And the often tragic consequences of that carelessness?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #66)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 05:33 PM

69. I also prefer "allow"

The difference is that "allow" empowers private citizens to play a role in enhancing the chances that a gun will remain out of the hands of prohibited people. It's already illegal to transfer to those who are prohibited. "Requiring" private sellers to check their immediate family is a bit excessive. It will do nothing to change the activities of those who now engage in straw buying and such.

Would it help to make being carelessness illegal?

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #69)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 08:02 PM

73. I actually said "family" not immediate family because

if dealers already do the check, why not require it of in family sales/trades also? You might have a large family and it is possible that a member could have issues.

And yes, this will not help with straw buyers. A big issue with Chicago gangs.

Carelessness might be helped with training. Is more training the answer?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #73)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 12:29 PM

79. BGCs, carelessness, training, etc

"I actually said "family" not immediate family because if dealers already do the check, why not require it of in family sales/trades also? You might have a large family and it is possible that a member could have issues."

I support an exemption for immediate family members.



The public sense of "allow" adds an element of trust and responsibility to a person transferring a gun. The same is true when one accepts the responsibility for being the designated driver. Unless you impose registration, requiring a BGC does nothing but create a burden for the state and the honest civilian.



Training and regular practice will help with carelessness and negligence. I'm not sure how this can be implemented.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #79)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 01:57 PM

81. Make training a yearly requirement?

I mentioned this elsewhere in this post.

Qualifying and a short test on safe handling and storage.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #81)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 03:36 PM

84. I'd be okay with an annual requirement

In 2014 the CDC states there were 586 unintentional homicides involving a firearm.

As I see it, anyone who CCs should be practicing at least every few weeks. When I shot competitively, my accuracy would suffer if I went more than 3 days without practice. Rifle doesn't equal handgun but (IMHO) every 3-4 weeks seems like a good goal for one who carries for self-defense.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #66)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 05:36 PM

70. It's difficult to demand people do anything with their private property.

Without registration and tracking you can't prove a crime has been committed and registration is a non-starter as the systems are as prone to abuse as they are useless.

Perhaps a Firearms Owner ID card is a compromise. Any seller presented with a valid FOID at the time of purchase would be indemnified and held harmless.

Now, what about careless gun owners? And the often tragic consequences of that carelessness?

I would recommend Stop-Don't Touch-Leave-Tell an Adult classes at 1st grade with reinforcement throughout elementary and middle school grades. At high school I would allow students to participate in shooting sports.

For adults I would recommend local police departments to hold weekend gun safety courses with low cost gun locks and holsters available for purchase (many negligent discharges involve a weapon being drawn from a pocket, purse or other improper carrying technique). I suggest police departments because many of the negligent discharges that have made the news in recent years involve officer, whether on duty or off. "Lead from the front," as my Lover Boy often says.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #70)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 08:05 PM

74. The FOID card idea might work.

Training always helps. A mandate for training? A requirement for obtaining the FOID card? Demonstrated proficiency on a regular basis? I do not know.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #74)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 08:24 PM

75. One of the considerations is:

Are the requirements actually to improve safety or to harass gun owners?

Requirements that are prohibitively expensive or onerous to satisfy will be fought. Lover Boy sometimes open carries because his job requires him to transport large sums of cash. He'd rather carry concealed but it costs nearly $200 every 5 years. Why spend that much money for something he can do for free without an ID check?

The requirement defeats it's presumed purpose.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #75)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 09:15 PM

76. Training and testing might be something to subcontract to selected gun ranges

that would also have to be licensed to conduct the training. To fund this, how about a small fee coupled with a minimal tax on purchases of guns/ammo?

It would seem to me that the benefits of training would help the optics of the situation by showing that gun owners care about the problem.

If the job requires, the job should reimburse, but I am not his boss so my opinion does not count here.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #76)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 10:43 PM

77. Something tells me

if you and I were both legislators we could create a bipartisan bill.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #76)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 11:46 PM

78. quick question,

Since non LEs are statistically more responsible with firearms than, say, the cops, what is the value added of the training requirement? Is it really like the liability insurance idea, simply a means to limit ownership to upper incomes in addition to lining the pockets of insurance companies?

I don't think it would help with any optics. Bloomberg and his pet former Monsanto flack would still continue their demonetization and disinformation.

To fund this, how about a small fee coupled with a minimal tax on purchases of guns/ammo?
You mean in addition to the current one that has been in place since 1919 and amended a couple of times?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman%E2%80%93Robertson_Federal_Aid_in_Wildlife_Restoration_Act
One of the amendments
In the 1970s, amendments created a 10% tax on handguns and their ammunition and accessories as well as an 11% tax on archery equipment.[1][2][3][8][10] It was also mandated that half of the money from each of those new taxes must be used to educate and train hunters through the creation and maintenance of hunter safety classes and shooting/target ranges.[1][2][3][10]

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #78)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 01:48 PM

80. My first question would be:Does training ever hurt?

A friend of mine had years of service as a Force Recon Marine. He mentioned that they shot constantly. There is a reason, and we both know that most action can be improved by repetition. SO training of course should, in my view, be a requirement. Yearly training would not be burdensome to most people. I bring my vehicle for emissions testing, I buy a vehicle sticker, I buy a license every 4 years, etc.

And thanks for bringing up the tax, and the mandate. It adds to what I mentioned.

My feeling is that part of the reason that gun homicide is such a difficult topic is because the media is constantly focusing on gun violence even as the total numbers are dropping, and have been dropping for years. But the news is filled with incidents.

I also feel that this focus on violence feeds the perceived need for a gun by some people even as it feeds the perceived problem with growing violence using guns feeds the need for some to call for bans or stricter regulation.

If we merely focus on homicide directed at another, and realize that 10,000 instances each year translates to one person out killed out of 32,500 inhabitants each year, the odds of any one person being killed with a gun is relatively small. So fear, in my view, is driving both sides.

And of that 10,000, if training can eliminate 10%,or 1,000 people, I feel that the training would pay for itself in reduced social costs.

And this focus solely on numbers of dead does not include the costs of the wounded, the social costs involved in medical care, lost income, police costs, court costs, etc.

If training could reduce all these costs, it is worth it in my view.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #80)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 02:50 PM

82. If its used to turn a right into a privilege, yes, it hurts. N/T

 

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #80)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 03:12 PM

83. "Does training ever hurt?"

Well, in addition to training on how to safely handle firearms the Army also trained Lover Boy to --

* Clean up after himself

* Fold his own laundry

* Address people he meets on the street as "sir" and "ma'am."

So...I APPROVE!

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #83)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 04:31 PM

85. I second that approval. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #80)

Thu Sep 8, 2016, 11:50 PM

86. It doesn't hurt,

but many firearms trainers opposed Arizona's permitless carry because they thought it would be bad for business. What they found was people took classes anyway, knowing that it was a good thing. Too many people think state mandated training, Florida being among the lamest and Texas being among the most stringent, is enough. The average CCW holder, or gun enthusiast is generally better trained and have more experience than the average cop or soldier. I used to teach hunter safety courses to 14 year olds, as required in Wyoming for your first hunting license. Other than using rifles instead of pistols, my kids were better trained than NYPD. NYPD criteria is hitting a man sized target 35 times at seven yards. They fire something like once a year. That probably isn't unusual for most big city police. New Zealand has a requirement that pistol owners train twice the amount required for police, even though you can't carry there.
Force Recon is special forces, not relevant to most people. Neither is training for the Olympics or ISSF.

While Gun Culture 2.0 would benefit from training, many, like me, were trained as children. It is very important to know how to operate the weapon you happen to have. Had this guy knew how to turn off the safety and fire, the child would have survived.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/07/08/norwegian-island-firearms-mandatory-to-carry/


There are ten thousand homicides, eight thousand with guns. Almost all of them are criminal gangs killing each other. They don't bother to do anything else legal, the wouldn't get training or permits like the ones required in IL and NJ.

I also feel that this focus on violence feeds the perceived need for a gun by some people even as it feeds the perceived problem with growing violence using guns feeds the need for some to call for bans or stricter regulation.
It is a culture war, many of the people calling for bans like Bloomberg and the politicians know they are lying, know the facts and evidence doesn't support their cause, but it is about political power and culture war.

The solution is some of the items Krispos talked about when it comes to lead. The correlation with lead is a perfect correlation in several countries. When you look at the most violent cities in the world, which includes Baltimore and Detroit, they have the same characteristics. Of course, that isn't the whole city. Just pockets of it.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #80)

Fri Sep 9, 2016, 01:50 AM

87. Would you support universal gun safety training...

 

Would you support universal gun safety training, given in high school, similar to how drivers training is?

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Response to beevul (Reply #87)

Fri Sep 9, 2016, 07:03 PM

88. If it had an "opt out" provision.

To accommodate religious/philosophical objections.

But mine is one vote.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #88)

Sat Sep 10, 2016, 10:38 AM

89. That's a good idea

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #88)

Sat Sep 10, 2016, 03:23 PM

90. I wouldn't object to that. N/T

 

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #52)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 11:05 AM

61. Book by liberal criminologists James Wright & Peter Rossi.........

.........should be required reading for all of those who favor "gun control":

https://www.amazon.com/Armed-Considered-Dangerous-New-Second/dp/0202362426/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1473260482&sr=1-1&keywords=armed+and+considered+dangerous

Both criminologists originally favored "gun control" until their research proved to them that it's a misguided way to deal with gun violence.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #61)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 12:46 PM

63. To that crowd, they stopped being "Liberal" Criminologists when they published the research

 

Once they found out and exposed actual facts, they instantly became "NRA Shills".

Just like any Dem that doesn't demand strict gun control isn't, by their definition, a "Real Dem".

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Response to DonP (Reply #63)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 03:37 PM

65. Good enough for Jimmy Carter to hire, thrown under the bus by The Controllers.


And they'll laugh at the suggestion that any political damage accrues from such brazen dishonesty and hypocrisy. Tragic. Truly tragic.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 02:13 AM

46. We've just been handed a prime example of how "gun control" relies on fabrication.

Last edited Wed Sep 7, 2016, 11:13 AM - Edit history (1)

The person who started the conversation regarding the politics of "gun control" has shut down his/her own thread.

Things weren't going his/her way in the discussion. Control religiosity was being smacked down with facts. Can't have that!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172198928

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #46)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 02:51 AM

47. Seems contrary to "we want a discussion" doesn't it?

 

Like I've said before, they don't want a discussion, they want a monologue.

The deleted threads and bansalot as it exists and operates, are objective proof of that.

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Response to beevul (Reply #47)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 10:49 AM

49. Kind of like their version of "compromise"?

 

"Why can't you gun owners just compromise a little?"

Then, when you say OK and ask what gun laws they are willing to give up in exchange for UBC or magazine limits, etc., they get all pissy and "How dare you suggest getting rid of a gun law!"

"Compromise" means what are gun owners willing to give up now, so they can figure out what we should give up later.

Having a "Discussion" falls into that same category. The discussion lasts right up to the point that someone disagrees with them.

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Response to DonP (Reply #49)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 01:48 PM

51. Exactly right

 

Could not have said it better.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Sep 6, 2016, 11:26 AM

50. And not just in "Bans-a-lot Land."

It's just as bad in GD.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #50)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 01:31 PM

64. Regarding guns, I get the two confused.

 

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