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Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:21 PM

 

Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

In Forbes this week. It seems to be a week for gun related articles in non gun magazines, (or is it clips)?

Some interesting questions raised, like what is the source of the latest Brady meme that "there are fewer gun owners just buying more guns", which we hear all the time as an un-sourced allegation.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2012/02/21/disarming-the-myths-promoted-by-the-gun-control-lobby/

Let the ranting commence.

40 replies, 6319 views

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Arrow 40 replies Author Time Post
Reply Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes (Original post)
DonP Feb 2012 OP
shadowrider Feb 2012 #1
ellisonz Feb 2012 #2
shadowrider Feb 2012 #3
ellisonz Feb 2012 #6
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2012 #5
ellisonz Feb 2012 #10
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2012 #14
ellisonz Feb 2012 #15
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2012 #26
Remmah2 Feb 2012 #33
SecularMotion Feb 2012 #4
ellisonz Feb 2012 #8
rl6214 Feb 2012 #12
ellisonz Feb 2012 #13
rl6214 Feb 2012 #16
ellisonz Feb 2012 #18
rl6214 Feb 2012 #19
ellisonz Feb 2012 #21
Callisto32 Feb 2012 #36
rl6214 Feb 2012 #40
Callisto32 Feb 2012 #35
burrfoot Feb 2012 #20
ellisonz Feb 2012 #22
shadowrider Feb 2012 #7
burf Feb 2012 #9
shadowrider Feb 2012 #11
DanTex Feb 2012 #17
burf Feb 2012 #23
burf Feb 2012 #24
DanTex Feb 2012 #25
spin Feb 2012 #27
DanTex Feb 2012 #28
spin Feb 2012 #29
DanTex Feb 2012 #30
spin Feb 2012 #31
DanTex Feb 2012 #32
spin Feb 2012 #39
Remmah2 Feb 2012 #34
ileus Feb 2012 #37
DonP Feb 2012 #38

Response to DonP (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:24 PM

1. Forbes. Is this one of those damned right-wing sites

promoting guns?

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:27 PM

2. Just predatory capitalism...

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:30 PM

3. That comment is related to this article how, exactly?

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:33 PM

6. Really?

Two words: Steve Forbes. Coincidentally, it rhymes with predatory capitalism! Who would have thought!

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:32 PM

5. re: "predatory capitalism"

I'm strangely comfortable with it.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:42 PM

10. re:re: "predatory capitalism"

Would you care to share your sensation of being "strangely comfortable" with it in General Discussion?

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #10)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 08:41 PM

14. "Would you care to share..."

I just don't share "sensations" on the internet. You never know where those data packets have been.

Isn't all capitalism 'predatory' in the larger sense?

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #14)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 08:52 PM

15. Aww...c'mon.

You know you want to go have to defend that statement with the rest of DU. Why so timid?

No. Predatory capitalism construes an intent to unjustly profit at the expense of others.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #15)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 10:33 PM

26. You make it sound so.... republican.... :(

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 09:17 AM

33. predatory capitalism?

 

That's redundant.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:39 PM

8. Forbes, Larry Bell, and the Climate of Corruption

By Joe Romm on Jan 7, 2011 at 11:34 am

Architecture professor and columnist Larry Bell has a new book of climate science disinformation out, Climate of Corruption. You can save yourself the trouble of buying it by reading RealClimate’s evisceration of a recent column by Bell in Forbes. The RC debunking is reprinted with permission below.

Guest commentary from Michael Tobis and Scott Mandia with input from Gavin Schmidt, Michael Mann, and Kevin Trenberth


While it is no longer surprising, it remains disheartening to see a blistering attack on climate science in the business press where thoughtful reviews of climate policy ought to be appearing. Of course, the underlying strategy is to pretend that no evidence that the climate is changing exists, so any effort to address climate change is a waste of resources.

A recent piece by Larry Bell in Forbes, entitled “Hot Sensations Vs. Cold Facts”, is a classic example.

Bell uses the key technique that denialists use in debates, dubbed by Eugenie Scott the “Gish gallop”, named after a master of the style, anti-evolutionist Duane Gish. The Gish gallop raises a barrage of obscure and marginal facts and fabrications that appear at first glance to cast doubt on the entire edifice under attack, but which on closer examination do no such thing. In real-time debates the number of particularities raised is sure to catch the opponent off guard; this is why challenges to such debates are often raised by enemies of science. Little or no knowledge of a holistic view of any given science is needed to construct such scattershot attacks.

More: http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/01/07/207304/forbes-larry-bell-and-the-climate-of-corruption/?mobile=nc


Whadda ya say SecularMotion, let's take the word of a climate-change denier on gun control?

Man, the description of the "Gash gallop" sounds like a lot of the argument proffered by the pro-gun crowd here. I'm shocked, shocked I tell ya!

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #8)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:57 PM

12. re:climate change

 

Let's see, how was it phrased earlier?


Would you care to share your thoughts on "climate change" in General Discussion?

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 08:16 PM

13. There and E/E...

But when the OP posts some non-sense from a climate change denier the credibility of the author ought to be questioned. Does knowing that the author is a climate change denier effect how you view his arguments? How do you feel about climate change denial?

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 09:04 PM

16. Just because someone is wrong on one thing does not make them wrong on everthing.

 

"Does knowing that the author is a climate change denier effect how you view his arguments? "

No, even a broken clock is right twice a day.



How do you feel about climate change denial?

Climate change cannot be denied but again, even a broken clock...

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #16)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 09:07 PM

18. One can be generally long in his view of the world...

Last edited Fri Feb 24, 2012, 05:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Why would you listen to someone who can't get climate change right on dismissing gun control? Seriously, I'm sorry, but a right-winger is a right-winger period. I don't believe in right-wing bullshit.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #18)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 09:13 PM

19. Are you always so closed minded?

 

Romney had universal healthcare in Mass, I suppose that means you are going to vote for him in the next election?

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #19)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 09:45 PM

21. My mind is wide-open...

...to liberal candidates. But when it's served up by right-wing douchebags I just say hell no - I'm just not into their junk science and bullshit sociology. Sorry.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:04 AM

36. I REJECT YOUR REALITY AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN!

Similar stuff comes out of my little sister's mouth. She's five.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 02:46 PM

40. "douchebags"? Is that you jpak?

 

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:03 AM

35. So YOU'RE running American universities!

Suddenly, it all makes sense.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #8)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 09:34 PM

20. What's that thing again.....

oh yeah! So you don't like the guy who wrote the article. Is that in ANY way related to whether or not his facts are correct?


So you disagree with his stance on climate change (which is fine, of course)....that has nothing to do with his article about guns.

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Response to burrfoot (Reply #20)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 09:47 PM

22. Speaks to credibility.

If the guy's main job is being a shill for right-wing climate denial, well then he's probably being a shill for right-wing anti-gun control. It speaks to his ability to reason. Why waste the effort rehashing the entire gun control debate - the author of this article just isn't credible.

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Response to DonP (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:37 PM

7. I clicked the link but didn't find the article

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:40 PM

9. Works for me. n/t

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Response to burf (Reply #9)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:44 PM

11. Must have been the wrist action when I clicked the clicker

Works for me now too

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Response to DonP (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 09:07 PM

17. LOL! You guys sure know how to pick 'em...

As if Tom Delay's press secretary wasn't enough of a nutcase for y'all, as if FOX news and WorldNetDaily weren't loony enough, now you pick to global warming denier Larry Bell to "debunk" the "myths" of the gun control lobby.

I've made the point many times on this board that pro-gunners and global warming deniers are very similar in their fundamentally anti-intellectual outlook -- they seem to exhibit a certain resentful pride in ignoring scientific evidence, as if the very act of denialism is a way of sticking it to those elite ivory tower liberals and their "science".

And I've actually been criticized for this on this board, as if it were somehow unfair to compare the anti-intellectualism of the pro-gun movement to the anti-intellectualism of the global warming skeptics. And yet, as illustrated here, not only are pro-gunners just as oblivious to empirical evidence as global warming deniers, for the most part, they are the exactly the same people.

Oh, and since you mention, the fact that there are more guns in the hands of less gun owners is not an "unsourced allegation". It's just that right-wing pro-gun morons like Larry Bell don't know what the General Social Survey is -- that would be the survey which social scientists consider the most reliable source of data for social trends. And GSS has shown a substantial drop in gun ownership rates since the early 90s.

But that's more of that "sciency" stuff which I know y'all hate. Probably better to just stick with the denialism...

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Response to DanTex (Reply #17)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 09:50 PM

23. There was a site I saw a few days ago

that said some outfit had a deal, prove global warming a fraud and win a free gun.

I'll have to check around for it.

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Response to burf (Reply #23)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 10:10 PM

24. Found it!

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Response to burf (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 10:21 PM

25. Nice!

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Response to DanTex (Reply #17)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 10:33 PM

27. If a surveyor from the GSS knocked on my door...

and asked me if I owned firearms, I would likely tell the truth. However, I personally know many gun owners who would simply lie and state that they didn't own any. Many gun owners have a distrust of the government especially over the issue of gun control.

The GSS may be the "most reliable source of data for social trends" but that doesn't mean that it is accurate.

I also find it fascinating that the Gallup Poll reports gun ownership is up in the U.S.


October 26, 2011
Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993
Majority of men, Republicans, and Southerners report having a gun in their households

by Lydia Saad

PRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. This is up from 41% a year ago and is the highest Gallup has recorded since 1993, albeit marginally above the 44% and 45% highs seen during that period.



**snip***

Bottom Line

A clear societal change took place regarding gun ownership in the early 1990s, when the percentage of Americans saying there was a gun in their home or on their property dropped from the low to mid-50s into the low to mid-40s and remained at that level for the next 15 years. Whether this reflected a true decline in gun ownership or a cultural shift in Americans' willingness to say they had guns is unclear. However, the new data suggest that attitudes may again be changing. At 47%, reported gun ownership is the highest it has been in nearly two decades -- a finding that may be related to Americans' dampened support for gun-control laws. However, to ensure that this year's increase reflects a meaningful rebound in reported gun ownership, it will be important to see whether the uptick continues in future polling.
emphasis added
http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx







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Response to spin (Reply #27)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 10:46 PM

28. Yes, Gallup also shows that gun ownership is down since the early 90s.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 11:27 PM

29. Reading skills are essential..

Last edited Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:18 AM - Edit history (1)

Read this portion again slowly. I highlighted the most important statement for your convenience.


A clear societal change took place regarding gun ownership in the early 1990s, when the percentage of Americans saying there was a gun in their home or on their property dropped from the low to mid-50s into the low to mid-40s and remained at that level for the next 15 years. Whether this reflected a true decline in gun ownership or a cultural shift in Americans' willingness to say they had guns is unclear. emphasis added
http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx


edited to correct spelling error in title. Thanks DanTex!

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Response to spin (Reply #29)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 11:53 PM

30. Nothing says "gungeon" like misspelled snark!



Anyway, re: your attempt at making a rational argument... there's no evidence that gun owners today are more loony and paranoid than they were in the days of McVeigh and Waco. It's just as likely that gun owners were more paranoid in the 90s than today, and this paranoia is hiding an even greater decline in gun ownership than shows up in the polls. On top of that, despite what your gun buddies might say, GSS is in fact a more accurate survey than Gallup, and GSS shows a more significant decline in gun ownership.

But both show a decline. Enjoy your denialism!

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Response to DanTex (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:22 AM

31. Thanks for the heads up on the spelling...

Error corrected.

I will stick by my opinion that the number of people who own firearms has increased despite the GSS survey.

You will continue to disagree.

Such is life.

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Response to spin (Reply #31)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:30 AM

32. For whatever reason, that typo struck me as funny...

Not sure why, maybe it's getting a little late...

Yes we'll continue to disagree.

Such is life.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:21 PM

39. Especially after I mentioned reading skills...

spelling skills are also important.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 09:46 AM

34. Global warming update.

 

In case you missed it, it's more accuratly known as "climate change".

"Global warming" is incorrect as are your misguided illusions on gun control.

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Response to DonP (Original post)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:57 AM

37. Great article thanks for sharing.

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Response to ileus (Reply #37)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:09 PM

38. You're welcome, I just thought it was a little unusual, considering the source

 

And I figured I'd have to replace the "internal squeegee" I use to clean the inside of my screen from all the foam flecks and spittle from control minded people spending energy denying anything they don't agree with.

We got the predictable, deny the publication credibility, critique the author for unrelated issues and smear anything else they can see.

But ... if indeed the NRA is largely politically irrelevant, as we've recently been told, and ... if it's also true that there are actually fewer and fewer gun owning households every month. Plus violent crime continues to fall. I'm sure our gun control minded friends will just quietly go away and sit smugly as they watch gun ownership fade from existence in the US.

After all the HuffPo, O'Donnell et. al. couldn't possibly be wrong about anything related to firearms.

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