Common myth "If people want to die by suicide, we can't stop them."

[Starboard Tack]

In fact, barriers on bridges, automatic gun bans, and restrictions on the number of pills per package have been shown to cut down the number of suicides. The wish for death and the wish for life co-exist, and often one attempt does not mean there will be another.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/creating-in-flow/201107/four-myths-about-suicide

[rrneck]

1. People who commit suicide dont want to die

They just can't live.

[Starboard Tack]

8. Right, they are seriously conflicted

And studies show that 70% of attempted suicides do not result in successful future attempts.

[rrneck]

16. No

The decision to end one's life is the very definition of an unequivocal decision. Its the most unconflicted decision one can make.

The tragedy is all the walking wounded represented by that 70%. The best way to avoid suicide is to get help, not to get disarmed. Has it occurred to you that the bulk of those who attempt suicide are economically disadvantaged, thus they likely live in more danger of assault or murder?

By all means take away the guns and increase the chance of seriously depressed people dying of violence by another. That'll make them feel better.

[Starboard Tack]

31. I think you're talking off the top of your head

Do the research. We have a lot of "walking wounded". Many are soldiers and many of them have considered suicide. I've never advocated taking away "all their guns", but I don't advocate psychologically unstable people having access to guns. Where do you get the notion that the "bulk of those who attempt suicide are economically disadvantaged". Some may be, but I doubt those would be the ones using a gun, which in itself could be sold for a month's rent. The bulk of suicides are committed by those suffering from clinical depression. I suggest you do some reading on the subject.

[rrneck]

33. I've been doing the research

for over thirty years. There is nothing you can tell me about it that I didn't already know before the end of the eighties.

Who is more likely to suffer from serious depression? (That term is a misnomer, but we'll let that go for now), People who can't afford treatment. Wellbutrin runs about a dollar a tab. A good therapist is about $100 to $150 dollars an hour. Any number of external stressors associated with low income serve to make the need for help and the possibility of getting it inversely proportional.

By the same token, those who can afford treatment get it , and are less likely to need it. Those who are financially secure have less to worry about and more time for personal fulfillment. A fair chunk of the mental health industry is devoted to helping the "worried well" because that's where the money is.

25% of the homeless population are veterans. Almost half the population of this country is either below the poverty line or working poor. They need something more than some scheme to "keep guns out of the hands of the psychologically unstable" whatever that means.

Instead of surfing up blurbs from a rag like Psychology Today why don't you figure out how to equitably disarm depressed people and get back to us.

http://www.nchv.org/background.cfm

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/16/9500721-census-bureau-clarifies-poverty-numbers

[rrneck]

34. That's because

the people who were really serious about it and who would have found a way regardless of method are unavailable for comment.

If you really want to suicide you figure out how and do it.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

2. What is...

...an "automatic gun ban"?

[Starboard Tack]

9. I must admit that confused me too.

Probably means removing access to guns for those showing signs of serious depression.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

15. Well maybe...

...but the word automatic is very problematic. There should never be anything "automatic" in the denial of rights.

Have a nice day.

[SteveW]

26. Close enough for government work?

[gejohnston]

3. interesting theory

but a article that scratched the surface, let's see the whole thing. I would like to see the evidence for this.
So, why specifically "automatic" gun bans? You are less likely to use a revolver? Have to see the evidence for this.
I like the third comment in the article.

[kudzu22]

4. Not sure why "automatic gun bans" would have any effect

Has anyone ever committed suicide with a machine gun? Has anyone ever needed more than one bullet?

[Starboard Tack]

11. I don't think the reference is to automatic weapons

Definitely confusing.

[spin]

5. I'm confused about the term "automatic gun ban" in the article...

There has never been an automatic gun ban in our nation at a federal level but very few people own fully automatic weapons as they are tightly restricted and banned in some states. Still I doubt that many people committed suicide with firearms such as a Thompson submachine gun prior to the National Firearms Act of 1934.

Perhaps the author is referring to the expired Assault Weapons Ban. It is possible that more people commit suicide using semiautomatic pistols today rather than revolvers, but that would be caused by the declining popularity of revolvers.

[petronius]

6. I think the 'myth' is not entirely wrong - people who are deeply convinced

that they want to die will succeed. However, a reasonable percentage of suicides are impulsive acts, and can be permanently prevented for that person with a well-timed intervention. I've seen this come up when bridge barriers are discussed (especially the Golden Gate), and it really does seem that if a transient desire for suicide is thwarted at the original option, it often doesn't recur.

However, this point is more relevant, IMO, to things like bridge design - a barricade of some sort along a bridge does nothing to impede all other users of the bridge. When it comes to guns, however, an analogous 'barrier' that doesn't cause significant impacts on other users is difficult to imagine.

Rather, I think the key message here is that people should be observant of the mind-states of their loved ones and acquaintances, and remove firearms (among other interventions) if suicidal thoughts are detected. (Not that I in any way mean to assign blame or responsibility for a suicide to friends and family - they're victims too, in a substantial way)...

[Starboard Tack]

12. Agreed

[Fair Witness]

7. Common myth: We should interfere with the wishes of others.

It's widely accepted by control freaks of ALL stripes.

[Starboard Tack]

13. This isn't about control freaks

It is about friends, family and professionals being ready to intercede when self destructive behavior is noted.

[mvccd1000]

21. Which seems like control to me.

If an adult wishes to end her life, who are you (or I, or us) to decide she can't? We certainly don't like anyone telling her that she doesn't have the right to choose how to handle a pregnancy, but you're perfectly willing to step in and tell her how she is required to handle the end of her life?

The last site I was on before stopping in DU this morning was the Detroit News. Article from today's website:

http://www.detnews.com/article/20111217/METRO02/112170388/Woman-dies-after-jumping-off-bridge-onto-Woodward-near-696


-----------

Woman dies after jumping off bridge onto Woodward near I-696

By Candice Williams
The Detroit News

Pleasant Ridge — A 40-year-old Oakland County woman died Saturday evening after she jumped off a bridge onto the Woodward Avenue underpass near I-696.

This was not the first time the woman, whose name is not being released, had jumped from a bridge in the area, said Sgt. Michael Bunting of the Pleasant Ridge Police. According to family the woman survived a jump from a bridge in nearby Royal Oak in 2009, he said.

-----------

Banning handguns would have affected her plans how?

[AtheistCrusader]

23. We had to put a whole bunch of fences an nets on the Aurora bridge.

Not so much about the suicides, but more for the poor bastards that live and work beneath the bridge. A lot of jumpers missed the river. Which means, business roofs, cars, parkinglots, etc.

[Starboard Tack]

25. What does a woman jumping off a bridge have to do with guns?

Among Americans of all ages, more than half of all suicides are gun suicides. In 2005, an average of 46 Americans per day committed suicide with a firearm, accounting for 53% of all completed suicides. Gun suicide during this period accounted for 40% more deaths than gun homicide.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923

[mvccd1000]

40. Do you remember the title of your OP?

In spite of the belief held by some who seem determined to ignore reality, people will still commit suicide even if guns were to magically disappear.

In spite of the title of this thread, it is not a myth that if people want to commit suicide, we can't stop them.

Even if gun control advocates were to succeed in the often-stated goal of removing all guns from the public, suicides would still occur (as evidenced by the story I posted, or as evidenced by Japan's strict gun control and its astounding suicide rate).

I guess I could turn your question around: "What does the suicide rate have to do with your desire to prohibit gun ownership?" (And why are you so interested in curtailing the choices of others?)

[AtheistCrusader]

22. Are we to be denied the freedom to engage in self-destructive behavior?

On who's authority?

[Starboard Tack]

24. Are you being facetious?

WTF does authority have to do with caring enough about someone who is suicidal and trying to protect them from self harm. That's what friends and family do for each other. If your teenage son or daughter told you they were going to kill themselves, would you say "OK, don't let me stand in your way."?

[hack89]

38. So what gun laws are you proposing?

and how do you ensure they do not impact my civil liberties?

[Starboard Tack]

55. I'm not proposing any gun laws

I'm studying the issues and trying to get a realistic grasp of where the problems lie. Regarding suicides, I would like to see more awareness by gun owners and their loved ones. I think many, not all, but many lives could be saved along with the psyches of young children.
We have a serious societal problem. It needs to be addressed. It would be good if we could do that without having to enact draconian legislation.

[hack89]

56. We don't need gun legistlaion - we need properly funded health care including mental health.

lets solve the real problems.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

42. Son or daughter?

Of course I'd get involved. However, that would be my child over whom I have control and responsibility.

I, on the other hand, am a free adult quite capable of making my own choices and responsible for those I make. Government is NOT my parent or my keeper, and certainly is not responsible for my actions.

[Starboard Tack]

50. What if your son or daughter were free adults?

No interference? Happy trails? Say hi to grandma?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

51. Want to keep moving those goalposts?

I would STILL try to get involved and get them to seek help - and truthfully, i'd probably take actions which would be very much illegal were the state to try it. I would also do the same for a friend. This does not mean at any point that I would want the state involved.

I never said I would not interfere. I said the STATE has no business interfering.

[Starboard Tack]

67. Good. We're making progress

Now show me where I said the state should intervene.

[AtheistCrusader]

73. Then please elaborate on what you were on about when you said 'intervene'.

You didn't seem to be talking about people having a friendly chat.


As an aside, my state now has a legal option for suicide, at least for the terminally ill. Some of us do not apparently approach death the way you seem to, with your level of concern over hypotheticals.

[Starboard Tack]

28. Is that so?

Then if you interfere with the wishes of someone wanting to shoot you, does that make you a control freak.

[Fair Witness]

32. I am certain you are way too intelligent to imagine anyone would take that post seriously.

Nice try, though.

[Starboard Tack]

49. Live on a one way street, huh?

[Fair Witness]

57. Only in your wildest wet dreams. nt

...

[We_Have_A_Problem]

52. Was that sarcasm...

...or are you just stupid?

If someone wants to harm me, I could not care less about his feelings on the matter. I'm going to stop him or die trying.

That does not make anyone a control freak. It merely indicates they are a human being with a normal and healthy sense of self preservation.

[Atypical Liberal]

10. Easiest way to commit suicide - just sit down.

Seriously. Take a bit of rope, or anything rope-like, make a small loop, put it around your neck, loop it over a doorknob, and sit down.

It's a carotid artery choke. You will be unconscious in seconds with death following within minutes.

I've had this done to me in martial arts sparing. It works, and it's painless.

[Starboard Tack]

14. Point is, half the gun deaths in this country are suicides.

We are not looking for a tutorial on how to commit suicide in the easiest way.

[Abin Sur]

18. Virtually 100% of the suicides in Japan are non-gun deaths. They still manage to kill themselves.

I would also point out that Japan, which has almost no guns in civilian hands, has a higher suicide rate than the U.S.

[Starboard Tack]

29. Excuse me, but what does Japan have to do with this thread?

This forum is about guns and the gun culture in the US, a country where 46 people die every day from self inflicted gunshot wounds.

[gejohnston]

30. the point was

those 46 lives would not have been saved by gun laws.

[Abin Sur]

36. Are you asserting that anything regarding the use of guns in other countries is off-topic?

From the statement of purpose:

Discuss gun control laws, the Second Amendment, the use of firearms for self-defense, and the use of firearms to commit crime and violence.

While the 2nd Amendment is indeed specific to the United States, the rest of the statement does not restrict discussion to the U.S., does it? I've only been on DU for a little over half of a year, but I've seen lots of discussions of gun issues that take place outside the U.S. Were all of those off-topic as well?

[Starboard Tack]

46. Of course not, but this thread is about suicide prevention in US culture

and the relevance of guns, which account for 46 suicides per day. The discussion of cultural differences regarding methods of suicide probably belongs in the Mental Health Support group.
I don't see how Japan has anything to do with gun suicides, as very few Japanese have access to them. The point of the thread is all about access, not national suicide rates.

[gejohnston]

47. it is not about culture

it is about access to means. Americans shoot themselves more than Canadians, Canadians shoot themselves more than Germans, who shoot themselves more than Japanese.

[Abin Sur]

60. And Japanese kill themselves more than Americans...without guns. It *is* about culture.

[gejohnston]

61. true, that part is

the means, not so much. I think he was referring to the means.

[Abin Sur]

62. Why does the means matter? Dead is dead.

[gejohnston]

63. I agree

tell ST that.

[Abin Sur]

71. Just did.

[Starboard Tack]

64. It's about access

[Abin Sur]

59. The point is that the Japanese manage to have a higher suicide rate without access to firearms,

thus showing the futility of trying to prevent suicide by keeping the 99.99% of us who don't choose to kill ourselves from exercising our 2nd Amendment rights.

[Starboard Tack]

65. The thread is not about 2A. It is about suicide

Suicide is facilitated by access to guns. Deal with the issue please. I'm not challenging your rights. We have a problem of 46 suicides a day by guns in this country. If you don't see that as a problem, just say so. Talking about Japan and the Second Amendment is not addressing the issue.

[gejohnston]

68. then let's talk about the issue without

being distracted by the means.
Americans shoot themselves more than Canadians, Canadians shoot themselves more than Germans, who shoot themselves more than Japanese.
Canada did have a slight of suicide by gun after passing their 1977 law (requiring licencing of all gun owners instead of just pistols. Why they regulated handguns more than machine guns until then still escapes me.) they did not see a drop in suicide as a whole. Hanging (the most common means in most places other than US and maybe Serbia and Switzerland) increased by same amount.
In short, no lives saved. One of my brother's high school friends had the choice of at least three guns but chose a cup of battery acid instead.
Talking about guns, ropes, bridges, trains (common means in Japan) does not address the issue at all.

[Starboard Tack]

72. The issue is about ease of access.

Many of these suicides are not committed by the owners, but by their kids or spouses. This is a problem. Everyone is being defensive and talking about their rights. That isn't the issue here. It's about concern for those we love and the responsibility of gun ownership. I am amazed at the cavalier attitude shown by many, not to mention the denial.

[AtheistCrusader]

75. Most of us care about actual, material gains.

You attempted to shut down all rational discourse, when you pretended a comparison to Japan was not only not useful, but wildly inappropriate.

Of course, it is clear why you would attempt to do such a dishonest thing.

[Abin Sur]

70. The fact that people kill themselves is a problem. That they use guns to do it is *not* a problem.

The means are irrelevant.

[AtheistCrusader]

74. It is intellectually dishonest to ignore the nature of suicide in nations where guns are

tightly controlled to the point of absurdity, while referencing our 'lack' of controls regarding guns, while discussing suicide as an issue.

[Atypical Liberal]

43. Not suprising - guns are easily available and effective.

Point is, half the gun deaths in this country are suicides. We are not looking for a tutorial on how to commit suicide in the easiest way.

No, the point is that even if every gun in the world vanished overnight, it would have no impact on suicides at all.

You can do it with a shoelace or an extension cord.

[Starboard Tack]

69. That's where you are so wrong

Less than 10% of all suicide attempts are successful. 95% of suicide attempts with a gun are successful. 70% of attempted suicides do not end in future successful attempts.

[Atypical Liberal]

77. Doesn't seem to slow them down in Japan.

Less than 10% of all suicide attempts are successful. 95% of suicide attempts with a gun are successful. 70% of attempted suicides do not end in future successful attempts.

I have no doubt that firearms are very effective at killing people, including oneself, which is why the success rate of people who use a gun to commit suicide is so high.

But I'd also wager that people who try other, less effective, way of killing themselves probably aren't really bent on killing themselves anyway.

But the people who are bent on killing themselves can do it just as easily without a gun as with on.

And we can see this is true by looking at places like Japan.

[Abin Sur]

17. "Automatic gun bans"? Does the author think there's a rash of full-auto suicides?

Restrictions on the number of pills per package? They just don't take their medicine for a month. Next month they have a 2-month supply with which to overdose.

As for the other measures, I live in the mountains west of Denver. Should any of the 3 million people in a 50 mile radius wish to commit suicide all they'd have to do is drive to Rocky Mountain National Park, which contains Trail Ridge Road, the highest continuous highway (over 12,000 feet) in the United States. There are plenty of spots where a mere twist of the steering wheel would send their car plunging some thousand feet or more down a cliff. Pretty reliable method, and impossible to prevent short of a *lot* more barriers.

[DissedByBush]

19. I did Wolf Creek Pass in late December once

This was in the 80s, before the later improvements.

Easy to kill yourself even if you're not trying.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

20. Simple solution... make suicide illegal.

[SteveW]

27. ...or no more than two a month. nt

[rrneck]

35. Gah!

[ZombieHorde]

37. Do people usually use automatic weapons for suicide?

Seems like handguns and shotguns would be more common than automatic weapons, but I don't really know.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

39. God, I hope not... pains me to imagine a pre '86 transferrable being confiscated/destroyed.

[slackmaster]

41. That's two Gungeon threads reminding me of why I dropped my subscription to Psychobabble Today

A long, long time ago.

[Starboard Tack]

44. Very understandable

Why would anyone who supports an armed citizenry want to examine the psychological aspects of such behavior? An interesting paradox that toters rationalize their behavior, yet choose to ignore those who professionally study such behavior.

[gejohnston]

45. no because

it is written by people who don't know what they are talking about. It is not an academic journal. It is pop scie for the masses. Like Popular Science, which is not about science.

[Starboard Tack]

54. The writer has a Ph.D. in social psychology

Just because she writes an article in a popular magazine does not diminish her academic credentials.

[AtheistCrusader]

76. Plays pretty fast and loose with language for a PHD.

[slackmaster]

48. I don't support an armed citizenry. I support allowing people the freedom to choose to be armed.

I just thwarted a suicide attempt 12 days ago, in my own home. I have a degree in Psychology and have been trained in crisis intervention, so I actually do know what I'm blathering about here.

I keep my guns and dangerous drugs (e.g. prescription narcotics) locked up in my gun safe. I had been providing temporary shelter for a long-time friend who is having financial problems. She's also been coping with major depression.

She rifled through my OTC and non-lethal drug collection recently, and has asked several provocative questions about things like sleeping pills and whether it is possible to overdose on Fosamax. She turned her two beloved dogs in to a no-kill shelter recently. All obvious suicide talk plus end-of-life preparations.

I encouraged her to seek professional help on many occasions, but like a lot of people with depression she flatly refused. I finally gave her an ultimatum to call the crisis line or move out of my house. I knew this was risky, but I cannot have a person with untreated major depression in my house. It's too much of a liability, and I'm not qualified to handle it.

Finally she went far enough for me to call 911. I found her lying in bed, with a box on the floor addressed to her sister and a note apologizing for "ending it this way" plus instructions on what to do with her stuff. (I later figured out that she had apparently stolen some of my hypertension medication, a drug for which there is no known lethal dose.)

She was taken away by the police, and spent the next eight days locked up in the county's psychiatric hospital. She's out now and has moved into her own apartment, but refuses to own up to what she did or why. I can only hope and pray that at some point someone in that hospital managed to steer her to ongoing help. Or maybe seeing the reality of what life is like for chronically mentally ill people will "scare her sane."

My point is that keeping the guns and dangerous drugs locked up, which I do for reasons having nothing to do with her and feel that everyone should do at all times, will not prevent her from killing herself if she really wants to. She is ambulatory and has a car, so she can always drive to a high bridge and jump off. If all the bridges have barriers, she can find a cliff. Or she can swill down a bunch of Tylenol with a bottle of vodka.

Nothing in the PT article would make me change my behavior or favor any more restrictions on firearms or firearm ownership. Any firearm makes a good suicide weapon, so banning one type or another does nothing to prevent suicide. Safe storage laws make a poor substitute for people understanding the lethal nature of weapons and doing the responsible thing.

Pardon my rambling, I'm rather burned out by my recent experiences. A person who has serious mental issues has the right to not seek help. That is unfortunate, but it's the way things are. I'm not going to make it trivially easy for someone to die in my home, but I know I can't stop a person who is determined to die from doing so.

[Starboard Tack]

53. Hey, I feel for you and I know how difficult it must have been.

I also think you dealt appropriately with the situation and you demonstrate a high level of responsibility. I don't propose any gun bans, just responsible behavior and sensitivity to those who need help, which you obviously have.

[Fair Witness]

58. This is a 100% true and 100% horrific story: A friend of mine, many years ago,

swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills, tied an extension cord around his neck and to a high clothes rod in the closet, slit his wrist then kicked over the stool right as he shot himself in the left temple with a 38 caliber revolver. His name was Howie Parks, he was 17 years old and he was gay and could not handle it.

godfuckingdammit

[Starboard Tack]

66. Pity nobody picked up on the signs

Whose gun was it? Presumably not his, if he was only 17

[Fair Witness]

78. I never heard, I always imagined it was either his, or maybe his dad's.

Most all us kids back then had our own guns, this awful incident was the first time I ever knew of a gun contributing to suicide. If only tragedies involving cars had been that rare...sigh...


There weren't any signs that I noticed or knew how to recognize. Maybe after years of experience I might have but too late now.