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Fri Nov 9, 2012, 01:49 PM

Knowledge is power. And it's time for the balance of power in this thing to shift.

Wow, spending some time researching the mental health codes in Michigan was illuminating.

There are so many holes in the fabric of "protecting my legal rights" I could drive a Semi through them.

I can go through multiple sections of the code and immediately identify all of the rights that were denied me.

If you thought I was pissed before, you should see me now.

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Reply Knowledge is power. And it's time for the balance of power in this thing to shift. (Original post)
Denninmi Nov 2012 OP
HereSince1628 Nov 2012 #1
Denninmi Nov 2012 #2
Tobin S. Nov 2012 #3
Denninmi Nov 2012 #5
Tobin S. Nov 2012 #8
HereSince1628 Nov 2012 #4
Denninmi Nov 2012 #6
Denninmi Nov 2012 #7
HereSince1628 Nov 2012 #9

Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 05:57 PM

2. Interesting questions.

Right now, after the week I have had and time to reflect upon it, I feel that what was done was such a profound violation of my rights under Muchigan law that I would like to do something. At this time, I am thinking much more along the lines of an administrative complaint with our Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs, because if a complaint actually is found to have enough merit by the evidence submitted, it actually goes to trial before an administrative law judge and can result in anything from reprimand to having the license revoked.

Of course, this is all highly hypothetical, and as I think I stated before, it has a snowball' chance in Hell of ever happening. The one thing that could realistically happen is for me to file the administrative complaint, even if the case goes nowhere, the fact that a complaint was filed shows up on the public licensing record.

The biggest question is, is it worth it emotionally, or better to chalk it up to experience, a very bad experience, and move on and never be so vulnerable again that I allow myself to be put in that position.

I don't know the answer to that yet. It is a matter for serious consideration. As I said in the other posts, I do feel profoundly betrayed by someone I sought help from, who out of incompetence or indifference or whatever did not listen to me at all, had absolutely no consideration for my concerns or need, gave no thought to the consequences of the course of action and how it would affect me. Pp

And for the record, so many if the concerns I have posted on here for the last three and a half months about how this situation would affect my family life, my finances, my employment situation have all come true to a large extent, and again the attitude was that my concerns were not valid.

I don't know the answer to the basic question, it will take some deep introspective thought. And this is too major to rush into, I was rushed into the treatment situation against my will with no consideration and without being granted many of my important rights written into our statute and administrative laws for the purpose of protecting people from abusive mental health care situations.

I certainly intend to get professional input not only from the legal field but from my therapist as well. I'm seeing her Tuesday this week and will report back on what transpires. She very well may encourage me to drop it and just move on for my own good.

Finally, and this is only a tangential thought, I really need to work on not allowing small comments to emotionally crush me and send me into the downward spiral, even if it is only temporary.

Again, thank you for everything. You've been there longer than I have and know the intricacies better by far than I do. My nerves are still raw, I'm still too emotional to always make the best decisions, do I appreciate the fact that kind people like you, Tobin, and others have my back so to speak.

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Response to Denninmi (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 06:45 PM

3. Regarding your tangential thought,

I found that I was much more sensitive to criticism (constructive or otherwise) when I was suffering from my symptoms. I had a self dialogue running through my head as well that was extremely negative. There were times when people said things to me that really weren't all that consequential that had the effect on me as if my world was coming to an end. Even after I started treatment, it took a long time before I could totally rid myself of that. I think it has something to do with being abused in the past.

Now days I think there is only one person who could hurt me emotionally and that is my wife. She doesn't, of course. She's just the only person who I let myself be vulnerable around. That's a part of love and I trust her.

Everyone else? People have done some shitty things to me since I've been in treatment, but I don't think I've been angry in that period of time. At least not to the degree that got me sent to jail a couple of times, and not even to the degree that I've taken it out on someone. I've had a few arguments with my wife, but I wasn't angry so much as I was annoyed, and, of course, we worked it out.

The point is that it's going to take a little while. However, I think you've already come a long way. Educating yourself about your illness is good, though.

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Response to Tobin S. (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 08:28 PM

5. Patience, Grasshopper.

You're right, as usual.

'Kung Fu' -- David Carradine, trying to look Chinese. Very very lame. I bet you are too young to remember that line, you're a few years younger than I am, and I barely remember this series on television when I was about 5 or 6. Bad, bad, bad.

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Response to Denninmi (Reply #5)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 07:18 AM

8. I saw the show a few times

When I was a kid we used to go over to my step-grandmother's house some Sundays to feast and watch football. They showed Kung Fu right before the games on one channel. I always thought David Carradine looked kinda weird for a Chinese guy, too.

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Response to Denninmi (Reply #2)

Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 08:30 PM

6. Thanks.

Did you expect less from me

I run a LOT of things past Deb. She's great.

She paid me a rather nice compliment last week -- she said I would actually make a good psychologist with some training because I am very attuned to my own behaviour as well as of others.

As I keep saying, 10 years of therapy has got to teach a person something unless they have the mental faculties of a piece of firewood.

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Response to Denninmi (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:23 AM

7. It boils down to two questions

1) Do I need confirmation and validation of my belief that what happened to me was a profound violation of my trust?

2) Is it even possible to get said confirmation.

3) Would the benefits of pursuing this outweigh the costs?

4) Am I strong enough to go through this?

Ok, actually 4 questions. What can I say, society views me as somehow defective, and therefore incapable of handling even simple tasks. I guess I'm too stupid and disturbed to have the basic skills set of a three year old.

For Christ's sake, they asked whether I could even do something as simple as change my underwear and take a shower? I guess they assume I am sitting around all day in the same boxers I put on 47 days ago, urinating upon myself while holding a revolver to my ear in one hand and using the other to decapitate a litter of puppies because the voices in my head tell me they are agents of Satan.

This system allows for absolutely no dignity, and it seems designed to break a man instead of help him. Why in the Hell don't they just throw me in a cattle car and ship me "to the East" and get it over with? This is what it feels like to me. Better short and brutal and done with than a prolonged death by a million little cuts.

I'm going to endanger myself again right now and go work out. I would put the sarcasm graphic here but I think it's brutally obvious and would be excess.

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Response to Denninmi (Reply #7)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 12:59 PM

9. Interesting that those are the questions you identify.

Last edited Sat Nov 10, 2012, 04:48 PM - Edit history (2)

I think getting validation that the psychiatrist violated your legal rights would be the critically important issue.

Maybe it's my unfamiliarity with MI's legal rights for mental patients but it's unclear to me if a violation of trust is a violation of a mental patients' rights.

With respect to question 2, psychiatrists make records of what they do. There is probably some information on what she did and maybe why she did recommend part-time in-patient care in the case notes of your medical record. You may have the right to see the contents of your medical record, a lawyer can answer that.

Sometimes I have trouble following pronouns, and that leads me read into things that aren't meant. So I'm wondering if you meant that the 'they' who asked about hygiene habits refers to 'society' that you feel views you as defective?

In trying to be sure about what you meant I thought it seemed to me that as society on the whole can't ask you a question it makes more sense that 'they' refers to some staff in a clinic you attended. Did several people ask you about hygiene, or just one?

When I thought about the relationship of the number of staff of a clinic to the population of society at large, the staff of the clinic seemed to be a very small subset of society. That's logical, whether I considered society as the population of Detroit metro or something bigger like the entire United States. And if "they" refers to just one staff member then "they" would be a smallest non-zero subset possible.

You wrote that you are guessing about what "they" are assuming. If you've been in therapy for ten years (as you seem to say in #6) you have probably picked up the concept of projection. Projection is psych jargon for when we impose what "we" think or feel into the thinking or feeling of other people. If I understand the relationships of the subjects of the sentences you wrote correctly, you appear to me to be projecting onto all of society quite emotional thoughts about what you are feeling about your undermined dignity.

That's pretty consistent with other things you've written in many posts about fear/anxiety of stigma.

But if it's projection then maybe not everyone in society, or even all the 'they' in the clinic really think those things about you. Maybe it's just your thinking that they are thinking the things that you fear.

If that's true then maybe your projection doesn't even explain with certainty what even one clinical staff person was thinking when (s)he asked you about your hygiene. Maybe if you can see an alternative to what the staff member was thinking the generalization of your assumption about what society is thinking about you can be put in doubt?

If there is doubt there is a possibility that the clinician, the clinic, and society onto whom you've projected your assumptions may not be out to humiliate you or strip you of your dignity. The clinicians, clinics and society could possibly be less hostile than you state in your posts.

I'm not a mind reader, so honestly, I can't tell you what a staff member was thinking. But, as you said up in #6, unless I've been as dumb as a piece of lumber, years in therapy do leave me aware of some of the things that go on with clinicians in psych clinics. And maybe there is a hint of an alternative explanation about why a clinician would ask you about your underwear hygiene. Maybe there is room for doubt.

One of the things I've learned about all health-care is that in doing their jobs practitioners make observations. One of the things they make observations about is 'overall functioning". If a person's overall function is good, that person doesn't need treatment. If a person's functioning is, overall, poor then they need treatment, if it's poor enough maybe in-patient treatment.

The APA came up with a way to "kind-of sort-of" standardize the measurement of overall function. It's called the Global Assessment of Function (GAF). It ranks examples of features of psychological function from serious impairments to freedom from impairment (and lots of places in between). By observing or asking questions of their patients, clinicians collect information used in the assessment and give a patient a GAF score based on where the patients WORST symptoms appear.

At the end of this there is list of the topics on the GAF and their 'scores' that comes from the DSM-IV. I call your attention to the bottom of the list where serious impairments are ranked. Notice that in the last two categories there is discussion of -FAILING HYGIENE-.

Now, the things on the bottom of the list are serious, so clinicians seriously want to know about them if they are present. Not because they think everyone sitting in front of them has those symptoms, but because IF those symptoms are present then the patient is in need of urgent care.

I'm pretty sure you can see where I'm going...

So, the question I pose is this:

Is it possible that when you were asked about your underwear the staff member was gathering information to make a global assessment of function?

If the answer is at least a "maybe", then "maybe" your assumptions about how "they" and "society" feel/think about you isn't really the way "they" feel. "Maybe" getting questioned about underwear wasn't about undermining your dignity but rather it's about assessing you just like they assess other patients. "Maybe" it was done with the intent of getting you to the correct level of treatment.


91 - 100
No symptoms. Superior functioning in a wide range of activities, life's problems never seem to get out of hand, is sought out by others because of his or her many positive qualities.

81 - 90
Absent or minimal symptoms (e.g., mild anxiety before an exam), good functioning in all areas, interested and involved in a wide range of activities, socially effective, generally satisfied with life, no more than everyday problems or concerns (e.g., an occasional argument with family members).

71 - 80
If symptoms are present, they are transient and expectable reactions to psychosocial stressors (e.g., difficulty concentrating after family argument); no more than slight impairment in social, occupational, or school functioning (e.g., temporarily falling behind in schoolwork).

61 - 70
Some mild symptoms (e.g., depressed mood and mild insomnia) OR some difficulty in social, occupational, or school functioning (e.g., occasional truancy, or theft within the household), but generally functioning pretty well, has some meaningful interpersonal relationships.

51 - 60
Moderate symptoms (e.g., flat affect and circumstantial speech, occasional panic attacks) OR moderate difficulty in social, occupational, or school functioning (e.g., few friends, conflicts with peers or co-workers).

41 - 50
Serious symptoms (e.g., suicidal ideation, severe obsessional rituals, frequent shoplifting) OR any serious impairment in social, occupational, or school functioning (e.g., no friends, unable to keep a job).

31 - 40
Some impairment in reality testing or communication (e.g., speech is at times illogical, obscure, or irrelevant) OR major impairment in several areas, such as work or school, family relations, judgment, thinking, or mood (e.g., depressed adult avoids friends, neglects family, and is unable to work; child frequently beats up younger children, is defiant at home, and is failing at school).

21 - 30
Behavior is considerably influenced by delusions or hallucinations OR serious impairment, in communication or judgment (e.g., sometimes incoherent, acts grossly inappropriately, suicidal preoccupation) OR inability to function in almost all areas (e.g., stays in bed all day, no job, home, or friends)

11 - 20
Some danger of hurting self or others (e.g., suicide attempts without clear expectation of death; frequently violent; manic excitement) OR occasionally fails to maintain minimal personal hygiene (e.g., smears feces) OR gross impairment in communication (e.g., largely incoherent or mute).

1 - 10
Persistent danger of severely hurting self or others (e.g., recurrent violence) OR persistent inability to maintain minimal personal hygiene OR serious suicidal act with clear expectation of death.

(Not currently defined.)

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