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SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
Tue May 8, 2012, 01:32 PM May 2012

Gay Marriage Question

Today, yet another red state is most likely going to tell the LGBT community they are 2nd class citizens.

I don't understand constitutional law but I really don't understand how it could be constitutional to restrict a person from marrying another person. It seems the freedoms in the U.S. Constitution should allow LGBT marriage and over rule any states petty bigotry.

Also, I have yet to hear a reason not to allow LGBT marriage which isn't based on the bible or religion. The first amendment states there should not be a national religion and we can practice or not practice any religion we wish. It seems any law which can only be based on the bible or religion cannot be constitutional.

Has there ever been a case in the supreme court which bases the argument since it is religion which restrict LGBT marriage, that restricting LGBT marriage is unconstitutional?

As to the will of the people, well if we waited for the majority of people to give freedoms, only land owning (rich) white men would have any freedom, we would still own other people and women couldn't vote.

20 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
1. Loving v Virginia 1967
Tue May 8, 2012, 01:34 PM
May 2012

The USSC determines that marriage is a fundamental right.

But that was 45 years ago.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
9. yes and why it does not directly apply to same sex marriage
Tue May 8, 2012, 04:04 PM
May 2012

is a mystery only to those blinded by their homophobia.

msongs

(67,193 posts)
2. christians imposing their religion thru unconstitutional methods. it is ALL about religion and
Tue May 8, 2012, 01:59 PM
May 2012

needs to be fought on that basis.

TrogL

(32,818 posts)
3. You have to think like an authoritarian for this to make any sense
Tue May 8, 2012, 02:14 PM
May 2012

Authoritarians go through life collecting tokens of achievement - brownie points, school grades, girlfriends, cars, marriage, home, white picket fence, etc. They want these tokens to be shiny, new, unsullied. They see LGBT folks as dirty, so they don't want these dirty folk sullying their tokens, hence they should not be allowed any of them.

Gay marriage would sully the "token" of marriage for them (we're going to ignore their high divorce rate for the sake of argument).

SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
7. I like the example
Tue May 8, 2012, 03:50 PM
May 2012

When someone tells me gay marriage will destroy straight marriage. I usually laugh and say, "No, straights are destroying their own marriages on their own".

qb

(5,924 posts)
4. Banning gay marriage is unconstitutional. That is why the states are amending their constitutions.
Tue May 8, 2012, 02:19 PM
May 2012

All the while hoping there are not at least 5 Supreme Court justices with the courage to uphold the US Constitution.
I hate political cowards.

yardwork

(61,417 posts)
5. I phonebanked against the amendment these past two weeks. The people in favor of it sound mean.
Tue May 8, 2012, 02:40 PM
May 2012

I was struck by the difference. It was stark. The people who told me that they were voting against the North Carolina amendment sounded like nice people. Some of them seemed to have reached their decision after a struggle. Maybe they aren't comfortable with gay people, but they still recognized this amendment for what it is - mean spirited, unnecessary, divisive.

The people who told me they were voting in favor of the amendment all sounded mean. One of them said "I'm voting FOR it because I hate gay people!" Then she hung up. All the people telling me they were voting in favor rushed through their statement and then hung up. One man said, "I'm voting FOR it, and I'll continue to tell my family, my friends, my neighbors, and everybody I know to vote for it, so you have a nice day." All said in a creepy, mean voice.

Out in the world there are kind, thoughtful people and there are mean, selfish people. I think that the mean, selfish people will prevail today in North Carolina. Too bad.

SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
10. This story may not apply but here it goes.
Tue May 8, 2012, 04:17 PM
May 2012

Last edited Tue May 8, 2012, 08:21 PM - Edit history (1)

I know a woman who is a ultra conservative Republican Mormon Christian. I hired her to work as a sales person twice. The first time I was in the closet, so she got to know me without her not knowing I was gay, she even met my partner, "best friend" without questions. I was transferred to another store and we lost contact.

Then about 10 years later she was shopping in the store I was currently working, we started talking, she was a good employee in the past so I offered her a job. By this time I am out but that didn't come up in the conversation. After she was working for me a few months someone told her I was gay but since she had known me for so long it didn't bother her.

We did have several other gay employees who she didn't like and made no effort to hide they all but totally discussed her.

On my leaving that store I asked her why she had no problem with my being gay but the others she did. She looked at me and said "Well, I knew you before I knew you were gay."

It was all based on first impressions. She had a preconceived idea as to what a gay person is and what they are like. I proved her wrong.

My point is bigotry is based on ignorance.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
13. So she retained her bigoted beliefs?
Tue May 8, 2012, 05:20 PM
May 2012

I am not trying to take away from your anecdote here, and appreciate that you shared it.

However, as an openly gay person, why is it fair for her to, going into a relationship with me, discriminate against me 'because I knew you were gay from the beginning', as opposed to NOT discriminate against you because she's willing to grandfather you in?

SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
16. Sadly yes.
Tue May 8, 2012, 08:44 PM
May 2012

First I like the term "grandfather in" I wish I would have though of it.

It isn't fair and our relationship was employee-employer only, she is not someone I would associate beyond the professional level. I do run into her in Publix from time to time, I am polite but that is it.

By the way on her political beliefs she makes Rush Limbaugh look like a blazing liberal.

She also distrusts any Muslim or anyone who looks an Arabic.

I in no way feel privileged to have been grandfathered.

SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
11. Question on the Amendment
Tue May 8, 2012, 04:27 PM
May 2012

Since you have been active in getting the word out you may be able to answer a question.

From what I am told the NC Amendment, it is an over the top amendment which not only bans marriage, but civil unions and domestic partnership. And gay marriage is already illegal this just stops the courts from using common sense.

Is the hate in NC really that bad?

Should I try to avoid that state?

Am I going to see any signs that say something like "_______Don't Let the Sun Set On You" The blank is of course an inflammatory word often used to describe homosexuals.

yardwork

(61,417 posts)
18. Yes, you are correct about the wording of the amendment.
Tue May 8, 2012, 10:23 PM
May 2012

The North Carolina constitution now states that the only legal relationship is marriage between a man and a woman. This means that all civil unions and domestic partnerships - gay or straight - are now unconstitutional. It means that the children of unmarried couples are probably no longer eligible for health insurance from the non-biological parent. It may make it difficult to enforce domestic violence protection orders. This new constitutional amendment wipes out existing domestic partnerships throughout the state, for both straight and gay couples. It's not clear how this will be enforced. Legal experts believe that there will be expensive court battles.

Is the hate that bad in North Carolina? Well, we're the last state in the southeast to pass such an amendment. All the other southeastern states did so years ago. We had a Democratic state legislature until last year, and they prevented this from reaching the floor. Unfortunately, over the years the right-wing anti-gay group that wrote this amendment got better at making the language really encompassing. North Carolina now has one of the worst such constitutional amendments in the nation. Polls show that most of the people who voted for this amendment don't realize that. They don't have a clue what they just voted into the state constitution. They actually think they are protecting marriage.

The urban parts of the state voted against the amendment. I think that you would enjoy visiting the Triangle, Asheville, or Boone. I love living here, but I'm in a deep blue area and I have no illusions about most of the state. At least people in North Carolina are usually friendly to your face. No, I would never expect to see anti-gay signs except in front of some churches.

Evasporque

(2,133 posts)
6. RW People will make laws chopping off fingers of masturbators if they could...
Tue May 8, 2012, 03:26 PM
May 2012

WHen the judicial system steps in it is usually after the fact. That is why RW control and their non-compromising manner is so dangerous because they can enact laws that take years to undo.

SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
12. Good Ideal
Tue May 8, 2012, 04:29 PM
May 2012

Then they would no longer have fingers to sign those hate bills the too often like to pass.

LonePirate

(13,386 posts)
15. If I had a religion which promoted marriage equality wouldn't these state laws be unconstitutional?
Tue May 8, 2012, 05:41 PM
May 2012

I'm surprised some enterprising attorney hasn't argued that point in court since they would violate the First Amendment?

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
20. The key is this...
Tue May 8, 2012, 10:24 PM
May 2012

So long as people want marriage equality to be unconstitutional, it will be. They will find every little bitty reason that doesn't make any sense and use it to justify bigotry. They will interpret the US and state constitutions in ways that fit their goals and their goals alone.

We need to focus on changing their minds just as much as we focus on changing our laws/amendments.

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