Yarmouk exposes callous double standards of ugly Israel bashers

[shira]

By Brendan O’Neill

If there were an award for double standards, for getting crazily angry about some people’s behaviour while turning a blind eye to other people’s behaviour, anti-Israel activists would win it every year. These are people who take to the streets to march and holler whenever an Israeli warplane leaves its hangar, yet who say next to nothing about the militarism of France, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and too many other states to mention.

They bang on endlessly about Israel being an apartheid state, yet through BDS they have created a system of cultural apartheid. In their eyes, culture created by us, or by China, or by Zimbabwe, is fine, but culture produced by them, those nasty Israelis, must be hounded out of theatres and galleries lest it infect us all with its contagious Zionism.

These are activists who cry “Censorship!” when a conference of theirs is pulled, as happened at Southampton University recently. Yet they spend the rest of their time agitating for the No Platforming of Israeli representatives on campus and for the shutting down of pro-Israel university societies. “Free speech! (For nice people like me, not for rotters like you)” — that’s their fantastically hypocritical motto.

And now we can see that their double standards extend even to the people they claim to care for: the Palestinians. Even here, even on the question of Palestinian suffering, anti-Israel activists only care some of the time. If you’re a Palestinian whose life is made harder by Israeli forces, they’ll share pictures of you, march in the streets for you, write tear-drenched tweets about you. But if you’re a Palestinian under threat from a non-Israeli force, forget about it. You’re on your own.

more...
http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/brendan-oneill-yarmouk-exposes-ugly-double-standards-of-anti-israel-activists/

=============================


[font color = "blue"]And they all screamed and howled in protest of Yarmouk. Right? Hello? Is this thing on? Oh wait, no Jews were involved. Never mind. Carry on.[/font]

[shira]

1. Cont'd......Where is the twitter outrage? The talk of holding public protests?

...The angry articles by Palestinian solidarity activists? The discussions about sending aid to Yarmouk, as those preening politicians, authors and others did in relation to Gaza in 2010?

All these things are conspicuous by their absence. The deprivations of the Yarmouk Palestinians don’t seem to have pricked Western radicals’ conscience, certainly not in the way the Gaza war did last year.

Scour the Twitter feed of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign and you will find no mention of Yarmouk. There are stories about Israeli forces stopping a Palestinian school bus for two hours, but nothing about the reported shooting and even beheadings of Palestinians in Yarmouk. These guys should seriously consider a name change: how about ‘Solidarity For Some Palestinians’?

The implicit and ugly separation of Palestinians into worthy and unworthy camps, into groups we should be worried about (the ones impacted upon by Israel) and groups we shouldn’t be so worried about (those impacted upon by anyone other than Israel), is not new

In Western radical circles, there’s long been a habit of getting angry about some attacks on Palestinians but not others. Few Palestine solidarity campaigners lose much sleep over the bloody expulsion of the PLO from Jordan in 1970 or the Tel al-Zaatar massacre in Lebanon in 1976, when around 2,000 Palestinians were killed by Lebanese forces. But they will talk endlessly about the history of Israel’s conflict with the Palestinians.

What explains this double standard? It’s because, today, what gets dressed up as “Palestinian solidarity” is nothing of the sort. This is no longer a movement devoted in any serious way to assisting the Palestinians; rather, it’s become all about demonising Israel, turning it into a whipping boy for the sins of history that right-minded Westerners can yell about and rage against and ostentatiously oppose.

For these campaigners, Palestinians are, in essence, political props, bit-part players in Western activists’ own narcissistic desire to find one evil entity that they can pin every global problem on. The driving force here isn’t concern for Palestinians — it’s the need of increasingly rootless, ideas-lite, post-Cold War leftists to find one allegedly black-and-white morality play in which they can be the good guys.

Palestinians are wheeled on, not as a real people capable of determining their own affairs, but as permanent victims whose suffering is cynically used by Westerners to boost their own sense of moral righteousness and their fury with Israel and what they think it represents: the excesses of colonialism, of modernity, of the West itself.

So for them, Palestinians who find themselves under attack from Israel are useful tools, nice additions to their invented moral drama, but Palestinians who are screwed over by the Islamic State, or by some other non-Israeli force, are not so useful. And thus those Palestinians suffer largely in silence.

The cynicism and callousness of modern-day Israel-bashers have been graphically exposed by Yarmouk.

[Cayenne]

86. Crickets

Let's talk about that school bus being held up.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

111. What explains this double standard?

Few Palestine solidarity campaigners lose much sleep over the bloody expulsion of the PLO from Jordan in 1970 or the Tel al-Zaatar massacre in Lebanon in 1976, when around 2,000 Palestinians were killed by Lebanese forces. But they will talk endlessly about the history of Israel’s conflict with the Palestinians.

What explains this double standard?

If I were to call myself a 'Palestine solidarity campaigner', the answer would be 'I don't tend to talk much about things that happened when I was 1 and 7 years old respectively. I talk about things that are happening in real time. I'm not talking about what happened in 1967, but what is STILL ongoing today, nearly 40 years later. Is it a 'double standard' to talk about the present, rather than the past?

And where the hell is 'Yarmouk' and what's going on there?

(Edit: Ignore this last question. The linked article explains it, although you didn't think actually mentioning what was going on in Yarmouk was worth mentioning either, you had to spend your entire fair use text on the bashing of 'the other side', rather than talking about any of the horrors being perpetrated by ISIS.)

[shira]

117. Well, today Palestinians live under apartheid conditions in Lebanon....

....and they're being starved and killed in Syria.

In Gaza, Hamas oppresses women and gays. As for children, they're used as human shields and combatants. In fact, at least 160 children have died - due to Hamas - while digging tunnels under Gaza into Israel.

Where are all the pro-BDS friends of Palestinians with their demonstrations of disgust? Where are the rallies in the street? Flotillas? Calls for UN resolutions?

We both know the BDS crew doesn't give a damn. The UN hasn't even passed the 1st resolution condemning all these acts against Palestinians.

[shira]

116. Palestinians started a civil war. Their choice...

Do you think Israel should've immediately allowed all refugees back in after 1948 for a do-over, round #2 of hostilities?

That's a yes or no question BTW.

==========

And whether Israel is responsible or not for the original refugees (they're not) the fact that refugee descendants are still in camps 70 years later is the fault of the rest of the world (UN, Arab neighbor states, BDS haters, etc.) who would have these millions believing they have a Right of Return recognized by the world and guaranteed by International Law.

Millions of Palestinians being led to believe (falsely) that they have some right to go into Israel is far and away the worst crime that Palestinians have endured the last 70 years, as it has only perpetuated generations of Palestinian misery in camps.

This perpetuation of the refugee crisis for 7 decades is not the fault of Israel. It's the fault of all those who permit it to persist. Primarily, those who pretend to advocate for Palestinian rights.

[DetlefK]

126. You use that word. Refugee.

Refugee means that these people used to live somewhere else and were forced to leave this place.

I keep forgetting: Where did those Palestinians live before they lived in refugee camps in Lebanon and Syria? And why did they go away from there?

[shira]

127. Yeah, around 30,000 refugees are left from 1948. Their descendants are not...

....refugees according to any situation worldwide since the WW2 era.

There is no such thing as a Right of Return of millions into Israel. It's not internationally recognized, it's not required by any UN resolution, and it's certainly not International Law.

So DetlefK, do you support this fantasy Right of Return and millions of refugee descendants in camps for the past 70 years waiting for it to never happen?

[DetlefK]

128. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait

If the descendants of Palestinians, born outside Palestine, have no right to settle on historically palestinian land, why do european-born Jews have the right to settle on the land that used to be the jewish kingdoms Israel and Judea in ancient times?



And by your logic an unethical situation stops being unethical if the original victims die off.
It means that Israel's special status only lasts as long as there are Jews around who lived through WWII and the genocide perpetrated on the Jews and the founding of modern-day Israel to preserve their culture. As soon as the last of those Jews dies of old age, the whole ethical and racist baggage with Nazis and Jews magically disappears.

[shira]

130. Israel, like every other country, has its own citizenship laws...

Once Palestine comes into existence they can choose to take in all Palestinians, some, or none.

And by your logic an unethical situation stops being unethical if the original victims die off.

Israel offered to take in refugees at Lausanne in 1949. The Arab world rejected it.

It means that Israel's special status only lasts as long as there are Jews around who lived through WWII and the genocide perpetrated on the Jews and the founding of modern-day Israel to preserve their culture. As soon as the last of those Jews dies of old age, the whole ethical and racist baggage with Nazis and Jews magically disappears.

Nonsense.

And it appears you're perfectly okay with the UN and the Arab mideast confining refugee descendants to miserable lives in camps, for generations, in order to realize a fantasy RoR that has absolutely no basis in International Law.

The perpetutation of the refugee crisis (through refugee descendants for generations on end) is by far the biggest crime committed against Palestinians, and blame for that is totally on the UN, Arab states, and BDS'ers who support Palestinian suffering for no reason.

[DetlefK]

132. You cannot deny that Israel has historical responsibility towards those people.

As for 1949: I didn't know that and I don't know what exactly Israel offered and under what conditions.

The palestinian refugees became refugees because Israel was founded. Whether you like it or not: Israel is partly responsible for the situation and therefore one of the parties responsible for clearing that up.



And don't try to justify this with "legal". There were genocides that were "legal". "Legal" does not equal "ethical".

[shira]

134. Towards some of the original refugees - yes.

But you cannot deny Palestinians and then the neighboring Arab states declared war on Israel. They didn't have to do so. A lot of responsibility for refugees goes to the aggressor.

There shouldn't be any argument over that.

In fact, Arab leaders called for many Palestinians to GTFO of the way so that they could sweep in, destroy the Jews, and then let the Palestinians back in once Israel was defeated. That's not Israel's fault.

No more than the millions of Sudetenland German refugees were the fault of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Romania.

Let's not have some bullshit double-standard here, okay?

[guillaumeb]

129. The response to your question is simple. But will you deny the truth of the response?

If not for the fact that the Jews, then the Israeli government, carried out a policy of systematic land theft, dispossession of property, acts of terrorism and attempted genocide of the Palestinian people, there would be no refugee camps.

Every Palestinian refugee, whether living in a refugee camp or as an inadvertent immigrant to another country, is in another country because their land has been stolen by Israel and the Palestinian refugees are forbidden to return to their homeland.

These actions by Israel of land theft and genocide are violations of International Law. That sounds ugly and harsh but the truth can be like that sometimes.

The Israeli government is guilty for any and all Palestinian refugees who are killed in a refugee camp. I feel that this post will not make it into your revisionist history, but the problem with revisionist history is that everyone must accept the lie for it to work.

[shira]

131. So since you think this is all Israel's fault, why the silence?

BDS'ers believed 2000 deaths in Gaza this past summer was all Israel's fault, so they howled, screamed, held rallies and protests, etc.

This time, nothing.

Why?

[guillaumeb]

133. not just BDS proponents believe that Israel is guilty of the deaths in Gaza.

Mainly because Gaza is nothing more than an open air prison that Israel likes to pretend to have no control over. War crimes happened in Gaza, and continue to happen in Palestine. Israel created the situation in the camps by creating the necessity for the camps and is responsible for the outcomes. Not solely responsible, ISIS fighters are doing the actual killing just as Maronite Christians did the actual killings at Sabra and Shatila, but Israel is ultimately responsible.

As to the supposed silence, here is a link for you:
http://www.maannews.com/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?id=662566

and here is another:
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/update-protests-killings-yarmouk-palestinian-refugee-camp-syria

I realize that anything from Ma'an News or the Electronic Intifida may not meet your approval but others here can check them out. People are protesting, even if you are not aware. Rather than make a blanket statement perhaps prior research would have helped.

[shira]

135. Israel is 100% guilty for > 2000 deaths this summer?

What about Hamas for starting the war, using people as human shields, and child militants?

Israel created the situation in the camps by creating the necessity for the camps and is responsible for the outcomes. Not solely responsible, ISIS fighters are doing the actual killing just as Maronite Christians did the actual killings at Sabra and Shatila, but Israel is ultimately responsible.

How is Israel responsible for the perpetuation of the refugee crisis? All other refugees from the WW2 era were absorbed as citizens in their host countries. Their children and grandchildren are not refugees either.

The UN, NGO's, and Israel haters are responsible for the perpetuation of the crisis as no other refugee scenario has gone on for 7 decades with the refugee population actually increasing rather than decreasing.

Not Israel's fault.

As to the supposed silence, here is a link for you:
http://www.maannews.com/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?id=662566

and here is another:
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/update-protests-killings-yarmouk-palestinian-refugee-camp-syria

Can't blame Palestinians for protesting but where are all their friends in the International community who go all ape shit if Israel is somehow or some way involved in Palestinian deaths?

No flotillas, no rallies or street protesting, no endless Op-Eds....

Why?

[azurnoir]

136. Tell us shira who exactly should be protested against or for?

ISIS? al Nusra Front? Assads forces? who? and again why is Yarmouk suddenly the measure why are we being asked to ignore a far larger and no less complicated situation that engulfs all of Syria not just one lone refugee camp as it seems we are to believe?

why are the 2725 Palestinian s who have dies since 2011 suddenly more significant than the 300,000 to 200,000 Syrian that been killed in the same time period?

as it stands the best solution for Palestinian refugees, not just those in Yarmouk is a state of their own

[shira]

137. It's not just IS and you know it. It's also children in Gaza used as militants....

...and human shields by Hamas. Gays are oppressed and killed there. Women treated like shit.

You're telling me those in the International "pro-Palestinian" community don't know all this or have time to protest it?

Please.

[guillaumeb]

140. the children of Gaza about whom you seem so concerned

are being murdered by Israeli terrorists wearing the uniform of the IDF. Sorry, I forgot that you do not like the words terrorist, or killers, or genocidaires applied to the Israelis who kill Palestinians. Perhaps we can find words that cover better the Israeli actions.

[shira]

142. No, don't turn this around. This is about BDS'ers masquerading as friends of Palestinians....

...when they couldn't give a shit.

I realize you have no good reply because it's absolutely true and irrefutable.

So all you have left is deflection.

[guillaumeb]

144. this response is interesting.

Blaming the victims for their fate seems to be your default position when talking about Palestinian refugees. You refuse to address the fact that the refugee situation was caused by mass Israeli land theft.

When reading some posters here I wonder if some are living in an alternate universe similar to the one I live in. A universe where the Israelis have never done anything wrong, where the Palestinians have no right to live in their ancestral homeland because the Israelis have a deed to the land from God.

Produce the deed and I might consider your argument has some validity.

As to BDSers, I cannot answer for any of them, and you cannot speak to their motives.

[shira]

146. Are you for BDS? Are you usually just as silent when Israel can be blamed....

....directly for Palestinian suffering and death?

As to victims, did victims start wars against the Jews in '47-48? Or not?

[guillaumeb]

148. when you ask "Are you for BDS"

if you are asking if I agree with the attempt to change Israeli policies of land theft and state violence directed against the Palestinians, I would answer yes. Are sanctions the best method? Opinions vary. Some people felt they were a contributing factor when used against the apartheid state of South Africa. Can it work against the Israeli apartheid state? Possibly.

When you asked:
"Are you usually just as silent when Israel can be blamed....
....directly for Palestinian suffering and death? "

this sounds like you agree that Israel IS to blame for some Palestinian suffering and death.

As to the war of 1947-48, one cannot talk about the war without talking about events preceding the war. Starting in the 1930s, there was a large increase in Jews immigrating to Palestine. The Palestinians were concerned about this substantial influx in population. And the subsequent terror campaign carried out by the Jewish terrorists in Irgun and Stern validated the Palestinian concern. THIS was the background to the 1947-48 war.

[guillaumeb]

139. when you said "a state of their own"

where would such a state be located? The Israeli government is doing all it can to eliminate the possibility of a viable, territorially contiguous state.

[shira]

147. A state based on the '67 lines, with land swaps, could still be offered.

Apparently you think the Palestinians are better off in their current situation than accepting their own state.

[guillaumeb]

149. accepting their own state as defined by Israel

The legal solution, in full compliance with International Law, is a return to the pre-war 1967 borders.

[guillaumeb]

138. you stated as a fact that there are no protests occuring about the situation

And you are incorrect. There are protests going on. things do happen even if you personally are unaware of them. THAT is the problem with absolute statements.

And when I posted:
"Israel created the situation in the camps by creating the necessity for the camps and is responsible for the outcomes. Not solely responsible, ISIS fighters are doing the actual killing just as Maronite Christians did the actual killings at Sabra and Shatila, but Israel is ultimately responsible."

you made no direct response to what I said. May I assume that you agree with my assessment of the cause of the crisis?

[shira]

141. Not talking about Palestinians protesting, but their fake "friends" in the Int'l community

Read all related articles about the silence regarding Yarmouk.

They're not about Palestinian silence, but the silence of BDS'ers, the UN, and other phony human rights advocates.

"Israel created the situation in the camps by creating the necessity for the camps and is responsible for the outcomes. Not solely responsible, ISIS fighters are doing the actual killing just as Maronite Christians did the actual killings at Sabra and Shatila, but Israel is ultimately responsible."

Israel didn't create the necessity for the camps. You know that Israel had Palestinian refugee camps within Israel, but shut them down and decided to make citizens of them?

Israel had just survived attempted mass murder of its Jews and 1% of its population perished in the '47-48 wars. That would be equivalent to about 3.2 million Americans dying in a war today for their country.

How can you expect Israel to allow for that situation again? That's exactly what would happen, BTW. All Arab leaders said as much about the refugees being their pawns to destroy Israel.

[guillaumeb]

143. More avoidance rather than actual argument

As to refugees and % of population affected:
At the end of the war, the Israeli government set the number of Palestinian refugees at 550,000-600,000; the British Foreign Office leaned toward the higher end of this estimate. But within a year, as large masses of people sought to benefit from the unprecedented influx of international funds to the area, some 962,000 alleged refugees had been registered with the newly-established UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA).
The link:
http://www.meforum.org/2875/how-many-palestinian-arab-refugees

Note that this figure of 555,000-600,000 was an Israeli government estimate. And this number constituted 80% of the total population of Palestinians. One way that Palestine became a "land without a people" as Israeli apologists and writers of revisionist history are fond of stating.

The very precise number of refugees is a matter of dispute[3] but around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (50 percent of the Arab total of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.
The link for the above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

[shira]

145. The argument is about the silence of groups like BDS. You're avoiding that. n/t

[bravenak]

2. Took me a second to figure out what this is.

It's like when black people protest white supremacy and some white people get pissed at all the attention that racism is getting and feel like it makes them look bad so they yell, " What about black on black crime!?! If you cared about yourselves you'd fix that first and stop harassing us about white supremacy" It helps them change the narrative and makes themselves into victims.

This was a pretty obvious attempt at deflecting from the crimes of the state of Israel against Palestinians.

[shira]

3. You'd have a point if this criticism were aimed at Palestinians.....

....who couldn't give a crap about other Palestinians.

Hamas is pissed, to say the least.

Westerners and other outsiders who claim to be pro-Palestinian human rights advocates are the targets here, not Palestinians themselves.

These morally degenerate hypocrites are nothing of the sort. They're not pro-Palestinian, nor are they for human rights.

Their motivation is hatred and this article obviously nails it.

[bravenak]

7. Hmmm.

No. I think it is exactly what I said. Coming from you and your sources, forgive me if I don't believe you care about Palestinian lives very much at all. You have never given any indication that their lives matter. I have only ever seen you use their lives, deaths, and suffering as a cudgel against their supporters as a way to minimize the damage done by israel.

[shira]

8. You can believe anything you want. Your comparison failed.

The article is 100% dead-on accurate, and it has nothing to do with how I or any other supporters of Israel view Palestinians. That's a poor attempt to deflect from the obvious.

If it were up to me, the Palestinians would have accepted any one of the many offers Israel has made since 1947-48. They'd have their own state already. It would be liberal and democratic. They could be very prosperous working with Israel. There wouldn't be a need for any wars or any hatred.

As I understand it, the Israel bashers that the article speaks of want nothing of the sort for Palestinians. It's not that they just hate Jews. That's part of it. It's that they see the most militant Palestinians as their allies and proxies who they encourage to attack and murder Jews. That's what they support. Not 2 states. That's BDS. It's the Free Gaza movement. That's Mondoweiss and ElectronicIntifada. And all their fanboys.

They hate Palestinians.

They don't care about women, gays, christians, or children under Hamas control. Not a peep about female or child combatants and soldiers. They deny Hamas' obvious use of human shields.

When I say they hate Palestinians, I mean it. That's the only explanation that makes any sense. They hate the Jews more, but they still hate Palestinians. It doesn't get more depraved than that.

Compare to what I wrote above about 2 states. No one sane should be against that. I certainly don't wish the Palestinians harm like their degenerate Israel bashing faux "supporters". Hence, the OP.

[bravenak]

9. You post reads like bad propaganda.

Have a good one Shira.

[shira]

10. Okay. n/t

[2naSalit]

80. +1

[azurnoir]

11. .......... really?

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/international-community-invasion

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/chronicles-palestinian-refugee

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/maureen-clare-murphy/catastrophe-yarmouk-isis-seizes-camp

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/sarah-irving/poetic-short-film-highlights-palestinian-plight-yarmouk

would you like the scores of articles from UNRWA too?

I'll agree with one thing though-this OP exposes something alright

[shira]

12. Yeah, really. Check out the Twitter feeds of Mondoweiss & ElectronicIntifada....

As of April 7th, 2015:

https://twitter.com/mondoweiss

Almost all their tweets bash Israel and are completely unrelated to Yarmouk, which is mentioned once, maybe twice, in passing.

https://twitter.com/intifada

Electronic Intifada is worse. You have to do some real scrolling downwards to find something about Yarmouk.

The current focus is almost entirely on Israel. At least 9 of every 10 tweets. And that's the point, isn't it?

[azurnoir]

13. quite untrue for both especially EI hopefully others take a look at your links too

[shira]

14. LoL. Yes, they should look at the links. They'll see Israel-bashing.....

....takes far more precedence currently than ISIS beheading oppressed, bombed, and starving Palestinians in Yarmouk.

[azurnoir]

15. Yarmouk is quite prominately there

as I said something is being exposed here

[shira]

16. Who are you kidding? Israel-bashing is far more prominent on that feed. n/t

[azurnoir]

17. anyone is free to look

but now I must ask which one of us is cynically using Yarmouk as a means of promoting an on going theme that those who advocate for Palestinians only do so because they hate Jews ?

Like I said something is being exposed

[shira]

18. Yes, they are. And you disagree with the OP? Really? n/t

[azurnoir]

19. yes I do the OP is same sort of rambling BS we see here with some frequency

in the bad things happen other places too vein

[shira]

20. How exactly is the OP wrong? n/t

[azurnoir]

21. what is wrong is that there is little truth to the claims being made as your own links show

unless of course you wish to admit that O'Neil may have chosen South Hampton as his example because perhaps South Hampton hasn't issued a public statement on Yarmouk as of yet however that is not the same as censorship the 2 are apples and oranges

[shira]

22. My links prove the point. Let's count the # of tweets...

....by Mondoweiss and ElectronicIntifada over the past several days and compare the number of anti-Israel posts with those that mention Yarmouk.

Are you up to the task or do you fold?

[azurnoir]

24. go ahead count tweets but first explain away why your author has not shown any concern himself

for Palestinians unless he's just cynically using Yarmouk for some cheap political points

[shira]

25. Which side in this debate claims to be pro-Palestinian....

....and so very concerned about Palestinian human rights?

You're deflecting.

As for counting tweets, I'm the one who put the links out there. You contend I'm wrong & that those feeds prove the OP wrong. You made that claim so you go ahead and count those tweets. I'm sticking to my claim. If you have evidence against, then bring it.

Or else fold.

[azurnoir]

87. so the number of tweets is your standard is it? IMO this thread and a couple of others are cynical

opportunism to deflect from the very reason there are camps like Yarmouk in Syria in the first place

[shira]

88. Tweets, posts on their websites, similar rage to the Gaza war of 2014.....

....with calls for accountability, UN resolutions, etc.

Fact is (and yes it's a fact) BDS'ers are far more interested in demonizing, sliming, and slandering Israel than demonstrating (by word as well as deed) genuine concern for Palestinians.

Proof is in the pudding.

Deny it all you'd like.

[azurnoir]

89. you do realize that Yarmouk is part of a much larger situation in Syria, right?

because it seems that you might not, only that or as I stated cynical political opportunism could explain your posts

[oberliner]

90. Assad is the reason there are camps like Yarmouk in Syria

There are tens of thousands of Palestinian-Americans living in the US.

None of them live in camps

There are tens of thousands of Palestinians living in the UK, Australia, Canada.

None of them live in camps.

[azurnoir]

91. The PLO is backing Assads efforts to expell IS from Yarmouk

just ran a thread that in LBN did you miss it? oh and would it really be helpful to Palestinians if they wee Syrian citizens?

[2naSalit]

79. +1

[oberliner]

4. Palestinians are being murdered and starving to death in the refugee camp near Damascus

It's a really horrific situation right now.

[shira]

5. Those Palestinians do not matter to Israel haters. Never have, never will.

It's not about the Palestinians.

It's about hating Israel and Jews, and it couldn't be more obvious.

Yarmouk refugees only matter when Israel can be blamed for their misery. Otherwise, they don't count.

[azurnoir]

23. Thus far this single piece is the only 'concern' the author O'Neill has shown for Yarmouk

and his deputy editor at Spiked has an 'interesting' piece defending Indiana's anti-Gay religious freedom law

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/indiana-why-we-must-be-free-to-discriminate/16840#.VSRSVZNGTSM

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

30. Oh, of course they matter. They should be allowed to return to their promised land.

But instead Israeli Pharoh says they can't return.

BDS. ROR.

[shira]

33. So u don't believe Pal. refugees born outside Israel should be given citizenship...

...in countries like Lebanon and Syria?

Is that correct?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

35. They should be allowed to return to where they want to return...

In the same way that Israel allows Jews with no recent ancestral ties to full citizenship.

[shira]

37. Jews outside Israel are citizens of their host country. So once again...

...you don't believe Palestinian refugees outside of Israel should be granted citizenship in their host countries.

Is that correct?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

42. Those born in Palestine and their progeny should be allowed to return home.

The truth of the matter remains that Israel is responsible for a great many of these Palestinians refugees, and if it would only show the same hospitality to Palestinians, as it does to Jews, who have no recent ancestral connection, then there wouldn't be a refugee crisis.

Your fallacious argument that somebody else has to be responsible for Israeli irresponsibility and ethnic cleansing is laughable.

I agree on that.

[shira]

45. So what's wrong with them returning to Palestine once there are 2 states?

If they were born in Palestine, why not return to the future Palestinian state instead of Israel?

Is it because you don't believe a Jewish state has a right to exist?

==========

Israel is not responsible for the repercussions of a war that Palestinians initiated.

What you're really calling for is a do-over. The last time Jews were outnumbered in 1947, there was a civil war. That would very likely happen if 5 million Palestinians were allowed into Israel. Apparently, it's more important to start another war rather than work towards a peaceful 2 state solution in which there's a Palestinian state next to a Jewish one.

That's the problem with BDS.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

48. Shira, whether you want to believe it or not Israel has a choice.

Be the change or they will be in for a rude awakening as change takes them over demographically. All their hasbara acolytes will not change that fact. All the disinformation that they wish to vomit up will not change that fact.

Your spin will not change that fact.


At times I really feel sad for you and your apparent myopia.

[Smithryee]

49. Please, stop using words you don't know the meaning to.

Like "hasbara"...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

52. Oh, you've made it to 45.

[King_David]

57. " and their progeny should be allowed to return home.." Never going to happen.

They should be citizens of their country of birth like every other refugee group in the history of mankind. That's the only thing that will eventually occur.

[shira]

38. So why can't they just return to a future Palestinian state?

Outside of Israel, but still within historic Palestine (as the BDS'ers would say).

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

44. Theft is theft, shira. It's that simple. Even a small child can understand that.

The property that apartheid Israel has stolen is illegal: both inside Israel and in the West Bank.

No amount of whining, smoke-n-mirrors, goal post moving or lying through ones teeth will change that.

One can lie about it for Israel, and perhaps they believe the lie; hoping others will as well. The problem is that the mask has been ripped off by Israel itself.

Bigotry, racism, theft, colonialism, human rights abuses and apartheid.

It's not for the ever so truant deceivers to ask why can't the Palestinians just go some place else; hoping to be taken seriously.

It IS for BDS to grow and show Israel that the world will not take its nonsense any longer and show it the path of wisdom that South Africa had to learn.

[shira]

47. IOW, the Jewish state must be destroyed. No peaceful 2-state solution....

You prefer that refugees and their descendants waste away in refugee camps until their alleged RoR is recognized and implemented.

That's BDS in a nutshell.

Israel is under no obligation to commit national suicide. No other nation on the planet is obligated to do so either.

BDS wants another war rather than a peaceful 2 state solution.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

50. That is your narrow and partisan view, not mine.

You prefer that refugees and their descendants waste away in refugee camps until their alleged RoR is recognized and implemented.

I'd prefer that Israel atones for the Nakba and removes its internationally-recognized illegal colonies from the West Bank.

Israel is under no obligation to commit national suicide. No other nation on the planet is obligated to do so either.

Israel will find that it is fighting a losing battle that they did not have to fight, but Zionism has been co-opted by really ugly people with bad intentions.

BDS wants another war rather than a peaceful 2 state solution.

You misspelled Likud.

[shira]

54. So Israel can atone for the Nakba in your view if/when they allow full RoR....

....that will result in Jews becoming a minority within Israel.

Yes, no, maybe? Please be clear.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

56. Demographics predict that eventually, shira. I could be wrong on some of the data, but maybe not...

Once again. If a country is built solely on the expulsion of one group for he benefit of another then that country is built on an unequal, unjust and corrupt system.

Complaining about what will happen if there is a correction is just sad.

It worked out for South Africa, right?


Why do you hate Palestinians?

[shira]

58. So that's a yes? 5-6 million refugees should be allowed into Israel....

You are advocating for an end to the Jewish state.

Be straightforward please.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

60. I call it Israel, shira, and one again...

If a country is built solely on the expulsion of one group for the benefit of another then that country is built on an unequal, unjust and corrupt system.

Complaining about what will happen if there is a correction is just sad.

It worked out for South Africa, right?

[shira]

64. You call it Israel b/c you advocate for an end to the Jewish state.

What do you fear by stating that clearly?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

92. I call it Israel because that is its name.

...and I would be careful who you accuse of calling for and end for Israel with the ay you defend/embrace its actions against Palestinians.

[shira]

95. RoR including millions of refugee descendants would end Israel

It would no longer be a Jewish state and no longer be called Israel once Jews are the minority.

===========

Would you rather it be called Israel or Palestine after 5-6 million refugee descendants are allowed in?

Simple question. I know you can answer that.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

97. To the passing DUer this is the continual argument for land theft

occupation and colonization.

Your black and white universe of excuses is so tragically sad, shira.

But if the only way Israel can exist in your mind is through the expulsion and exile of its former inhabitants begs the question...if supporters of Israel really believe that then what difference is there between them and bigots the world over that suppress one group over amother?

[shira]

98. How many people have to die in order to achieve this 1 state dream of yours?

If you had your way, at least 5 million refugee descendants would be allowed into Israel and it would become 1 state. You've made that point perfectly clear many times. It's the BDS position and you're a big supporter of BDS.

However...

1. This would end the Jewish state.

2. This would provoke another war.

3. A Jewish minority within that part of the world either be killed, expelled, or oppressed miserably, like all other people outside of Israel throughout the mideast, but worse because they're Jews.

These 3 things don't appear to phase you in the least. And it's not like they cannot possibly happen. Here's a thread showing 2 top BDS proponents admitting that at least 200,000 would have to die so that the BDS version of 1-state can begin.

Of course, there is no such thing as an internationally recognized or legal RoR in which >5 million Palestinians are required to be allowed into Israel.

And since this unlimited RoR of >5 million is nothing but nonsense, why aren't you advocating for generations of Palestinians still living in wretched conditions within camps throughout the mideast waiting for this fairy tale of millions of Palestinians making "aliyah"?

Is it possible you are so eager to see the Jewish state gone (as the BDS movement that you support advocates) that you want Palestinian refugees and their descendants to suffer as long as it takes to achieve that goal?

Because it seems very clear that's the goal of BDS.

Is it also your goal? If you're so certain about the morality and justice of your position, these questions should be easy for you to answer.

I highly doubt you'll rise to the challenge of answering these questions like Frank Barat and Anthony Loewenstein (of BDS) did. They knew many people would have to die to achieve the BDS 1-state solution.

Prove me wrong. I challenge you to answer these questions in detail.

[shira]

85. In addition, it's fallacious to argue Israel was built solely on the expulsion.....

...of Palestinians for the benefit of Jews.

The proof is that Israel accepted the 1947 Partition Plan. There wouldn't have been any refugees had the Palestinians of that time agreed to live in their own state alongside Israel in peace.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

93. There wouldn't have been any refugees had

Israel let then return to their homes, but how could it resist stealing them instead?

[shira]

94. They just had a civil war. No nation would have allowed that.

Last edited Sat Apr 11, 2015, 08:00 AM - Edit history (2)

Avoiding yet another war (thereby saving lives) trumps allowing refugees back in for another round of war.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

96. What was that: excuse #17?

It's always so easy to make excuses for empire, isn't it shira.

It's even harder to admit land theft and colonization since that is what zionism has become.

[shira]

99. How many people have to die in order to achieve this 1 state dream of yours? n/t

[azurnoir]

100. A blast from the past replay ?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113416921

[shira]

101. Frank Barat & Anthony Loewenstein of BDS admit > 200K would have to die. n/t

[azurnoir]

102. no they gave their opinions sort of-anything else you wish to discuss?

[shira]

107. Sort of? LoL. n/t

[azurnoir]

108. ya sort of because Lowenstein actually said 6,000,000 it was the umbrage of the day if memory serves

[shira]

110. Barat said 200,000 before Loeweinstein's repulsive reply.

Loewenstein didn't appear to be shocked by Barat's answer.

What do you say to that?

[azurnoir]

113. that Lowenstein didn't appear to be shocked what of that? It was hypothetical discussion

[shira]

109. For BDS'ers who are so sure their position is moral & just...

....they fear answering the most simple, direct questions that challenge their views. Either they come back with a deflection or an ad-hominem character attack. They are absolutely unwilling to answer anything that questions their religious-fundamentalist type belief about the Israel/Palestine situation.

It seems to be too much of an imposition on them to answer questions directly, honestly, and in clear detail.

[bravenak]

6. Yes.

[2naSalit]

78. +1

[Scootaloo]

26. It must be Tartan Day!

Welcome back Shira. There were so many second-rate imposters while you were gone!

[bravenak]

27. Lol.

Thanks for always being you.

[Scootaloo]

28. Don't tell anyone, but sometimes i'm actually Andy Kaufman

[bravenak]

29. I won't, but I want photos!

[King_David]

61. Strangely enough it happens the many many times you're forced away too

Weird

[Scootaloo]

81. Ain't nobody in the world got moves like me, Dave

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

31. Wouldn't it be better if Israel allowed the Right of Return?

If it did places like Yarmouk wouldn't happen to the Palestinians.

BDS. ROR.

[shira]

32. Right of Return for whom? Original refugees or something like 4-6 million? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

34. All Palestinians in exile should be allowed to make Aliyah to their place of origin.

Just in the same way that Israel allows Jews that have no recent ancestral ties full citizenship.

BDS. ROR.

[shira]

36. Those born in other countries should be granted citizenship in those countries.

Do you agree?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

40. Those born in Palestine and their progeny should be allowed to return home.

The truth of the matter remains that Israel is responsible for a great many of these Palestinians refugees, and if it would only show the same hospitality to Jews, who have no recent ancestral connection, then there wouldn't be a refugee crisis.

Your fallacious argument that somebody else has to be responsible for Israeli irresponsibility and ethnic cleansing is laughable.

I agree on that.

[shira]

43. All other refugees' kids who were born in other nations....

...are citizens of those nations. Except when it comes to Palestinians.

And yes, those countries are responsible for accepting as citizens those who are born in their country.

-------------------------------------

You apparently believe that Palestinians must remain in misery within refugee camps until RoR is instituted.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

46. Well, you're always wrong, shira. That's why you wind up in so many timeouts.

What Israel has taken by force will one day have to be returned. The world isn't interested in Israel's bullshit any longer, and I'm afraid the same goes for you as well.

You never learn, and doubling down on the losing horse of colonial apartheid will not gain you any credibility.

[shira]

51. So you support keeping refugees in camps rather than granting them citizenship...

Despite every other country in the world granting citizenship to their refugees and offspring. You seem to think that's in their best interests.

Why not just say that loud and clear since you appear to be so proud of the "truth" that you advocate?

I've asked you many times and you cannot seem to give a yes/no response.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

53. I support ROR. Israel can grant them citizenship...

Oh, that's right Israel prohibits their rightful return.

[shira]

55. The RoR you support makes Jews into a minority within Israel, correct? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

59. Why do you apparently hate the future, shira? Or are you just afraid of it?

By 2035 or thereabouts Israel will no longer be majority Jewish...as I understand it.

[King_David]

62. The world is waiting for that day, to resume expulsion of their Jews

Because the Jews' safe haven so many in this world despise ,will be gone.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

65. That's nice that you want to pitch hit for shira, but she can handle this herself.

And I was being candid and fair with my assessment of the future.

It worked out for South Africa so it could for Israel as well.

[King_David]

67. RoR never gonna happen

Those second generation refugees must be treated exactly like every other world refugee and become citizens and assimilate into the country's of their birth.

It's not even up for debate, ask Israeli.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

70. Dig in those heels baby.

It will happen eventually, dave. Not even you kingly wisdom will be able to stop it.

[King_David]

72. The world is waiting to resume the expulsions of their Jews

The only thing stopping this is that Israel provides safe haven.

It will never happen .

But I'll pass on your objections and I'm pretty sure they will be duly noted.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

76. If you say so. The demographics will be the determining thing, dave.

Sleep tight.

[shira]

73. The world calls for 2 states, one Jewish, one Palestinian.

Not for war, like BDS calls for.

[shira]

68. South Africa is a different situation altogether.

That was real Apartheid.

Blacks never called for war against all Whites and never acted upon such intentions. They were never a threat to Whites. They never started a war against Whites. The vast majority never encouraged, praised, or rewarded terror attacks against innocents.

Did you not know this?

Has BDS misled you into repeating their BS?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

74. There you go with your disinformation again...

Blacks never called for war against all Whites...

So what?

They were never a threat to Whites.

Wrong again.
The MK was the military branch of the ANC. They did spill blood. Some were even branded terrorists. Nelson Mandela co-founded it. Ever heard of him?

I love your little sidestps, but they do so trip you up.

Blacks never called for war against all Whites...

They never started a war against Whites...

The vast majority never encouraged...


Oh, but lets get back to reality since it seems to be slipping away from you. Israel IS an apartheid state. Live with it.

[shira]

66. You're wrong about the demographics.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/12/18/israels-demographic-time-bomb-is-a-dud/

And I look forward to the future. I don't hate it at all.

The Jewish state will still be there in 2035 and beyond. Sorry if you don't like it.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

75. Whatever you say. Sweet dreams.

[shira]

84. So you're now done w/ the silly demographic argument, right? n/t

[sabbat hunter]

39. so a country shouldn't

have the right to decide on its own who is and who isn't allowed to become a citizen of the country and control its borders?


What about the fact that 2/3rds of the refugees are there, not due to being forced out by Israeli forces, but either fled on their own or left at the behest of Arab commanders on the ground.
And why are Palestinians the only people in which refugee status is passed down from generation to generation?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

41. When a country whose sustainability is built on the grounds of expelling one group

for the benefit of another, and who also illegally expropriates more of the formers property for the benefit of the latter has lost any moral high ground to claim who has what rights. That would also go for their apologists.

In addition, when the same country ignores or cherry picks international law at will, barring the first group from the internationally recognized right of return, then that country, and its apologists, forfeit any moral or ethical claims for what they are doing.

The whining, crying and victimization of apartheid Israel, and its supporters, is embarrassing to say the least.

I can think of one other people who seem to claim a right of return after millennium, refugees of sorts, who gain instant citizenship with no recent ancestral ties, whereas the Palestinians and their children, forced into exile and not allowed to return, are trated as strangers in their own house.

And that's one of the most disgusting things about apartheid Israel and their supporters.

The victims have become the victimizers.

[shira]

63. There is no lawful internationally recognized right of return.

You can only point to UNGA resolutions, which at best are suggestions and not law. Nothing in the Geneva Conventions, nothing in any binding UNSC resolution either.

You didn't know this?

Did BDS mislead you?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

69. Just stop with your blatant disinformation. United Nations General Assembly, yes, shira.

UNGA R194. The Resolution defined principles for reaching a final settlement and returning Palestinian refugees to their homes.

These are the countries that voted it in.

Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Ethiopia, France, Greece, Haiti, Honduras, Iceland, Liberia, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, South Africa, Sweden, Thailand, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela.

So, yes, shira, there is a internationally recognized right of return.

Even a very young child would understand that.


It is getting harder and harder for you to misrepresent the truth since nobody really believes you.

[shira]

71. You're not aware that UNGA resolutions are non-binding...

Allow me to educate you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binding_resolution#United_Nations

I trust that you will never again state that any UNGA resolution against Israel is International Law that Israel is required to follow.

Right?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

77. "internationally recognized right of return" That's what I wrote.

You added lawful. I didn't.

But that doesn't change anything, shira, seeing how anything that the UN passes is ignored by Israel and team hasbara.

The demographics will shift in time, but I doubt that corrupt Israel or it's myopic supporters will realized what hit them until its too late.

[shira]

83. It's not even that. Where do these resolutions call for a RoR.....

Last edited Wed Apr 8, 2015, 05:26 PM - Edit history (3)

....of not only the original refugees, but all their offspring ad-infinitum?

No such thing exists in any UN resolution. That's just a BDS wet dream fantasy that has no International backing. You've been duped by BDS idiots.

I don't expect you to call anymore for the BDS fantasy version of RoR.

==================

Do we now agree Israel is not required to allow 5-6 million Palestinians into Israel?

[sabbat hunter]

82. few things about

UNGAR 194

1)only one small section referred to refugees
2) It did not guarantee an unconditional right of return for refugees
3) Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen voted against the resolution
4) the text states "should be permitted" to return to their homes at the "earliest practicable date" and this recommendation applies only to those "wishing to... live at peace with their neighbors"
5) furthermore, the entire area (including what is now israel) is referred to as Palestine (from the mandate ) as Israel was not yet internationally recognized.
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/C758572B78D1CD0085256BCF0077E51A

[procon]

103. I don't believe anything this OP posts. nt

[Smithryee]

105. Uhhhhhhh...

That's.. useful...

[procon]

112. Why do I have to meet your narrow definition of what is "useful"?

It's my opinion, not yours.

Like Republicans who can only point to rightwing sources like Fox and Newsmax to support their opinions, the OP, is amongst others who share a blind, single-minded focus that the state of Israel can do no wrong and uses equally biased propaganda sources to deceive and misdirect. I do not believe any propaganda messaging. Period.

If your opinion differs, good on you, that's how it works, yeah?

[bravenak]

106. Good.

[shira]

118. Well, the fact is Palestinians are being murdered in Syria....

It's in all major newspapers.

And their good friends from BDS who usually advocate the loudest for their rights are relatively silent compared to their howling and screaming if Israel is involved in some way.

Just as silent as they are about women and gays under Hamas rule. Or children deliberately used as combatants and human shields. Or Hamas' child-labor that has resulted in at least 160 children dead These child laborers were digging tunnels under Gaza and into Israel. Nice stuff, huh?

The Israel bashers can't be bothered by any of that. They're too damned busy bashing the Jewish state. There's no rage about the welfare of Palestinians when Israel isn't involved.

Some friends of the Palestinians they turn out to be. "Friends", no better than neo-nazis who are somehow part of that global progressive movement masquerading as human rights advocates.

========================

Now if you choose to ignore or deny this, that's your choice.

If you have an intelligent response to the OP, can we hear it?

[procon]

119. You use a lot of buzzwords.

If you're looking for someone whose might be easily impressed or kowtowed by passive agressive responses like that; it's not me.

[shira]

121. Point is, there's nothing NOT to believe from the OP. n/t

[oberliner]

120. What is a good source of info on what is happening in Yarmouk?

Which sources have you been using to follow what is going on there?

[LeftishBrit]

123. Just about any mainstream, or less mainstream, news source

Brendan O'Neill is an opinion writer, not a news reporter, and on the whole a bad one. He used to be far left, and is now very right-wing.

I don't think he gives two hoots about either the Jews or the Palestinians: he just wants to make the left look bad.

However, he is right about ISIS being absolute scum, and one of the most vicious enemies of everyone around, including the Palestinians.


To Hell with And that is perhaps one of the few points on which left and right, Israelis and Palestinians, Christians and Jews and secularists and the vast majority of Muslims, can agree.

[oberliner]

124. I disagree

I don't think the mainstream media (at least in the US) covers the situation with any nuance. They also (understandably) don't have any on the ground presence and are relying on statements from folks who may have particular agendas. For instance, there seems to be the pro-Assad version and the anti-Assad version which present contradictory "facts" about how the Palestinians living in Yarmouk feel about what is going on and what action the Palestinian leadership is taking with respect to cooperation with regime forces.

You are no doubt aware of the contentious relationship that has existed over the years between the Palestinians living in Syria and the Assad regime, specifically in Yarmouk. On the one hand there have been quotes about the Palestinians wanting to stay out of the Syrian fighting and other ones saying they are banding together with regime forces to drive out ISIS. The whole thing is a huge muddle.

As for the less mainstream media, I think they are more agenda driven than the MSM.

If you have a specific source that you would suggest, I would certainly be interested in checking it out.

[LeftishBrit]

122. The UN are making an issue of it, which they don't always

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/12/yarmouk-camp-un-safe-passage_n_7049122.html


ISIS is an enemy to all.

[oberliner]

125. With respect

You wrote "ISIS is an enemy to all" but the Assad regime has done more harm for a longer period of time to the Palestinians living in Yarmouk than ISIS. It is more than a little hypocritical for them to try to make themselves out to be the defenders of the Palestinians living there against the ISIS bad guys when they have been the bad guys themselves for some time (and continue to be).

[shira]

150. Zero resolutions means the UN isn't making an issue of it. n/t