If I were PM, I would de-Zionize Israel and quit

[oberliner]

Deemed a persona non grata in Israel, Prof. Ilan Pappe (currently a professor of history at the University of Exeter in the UK, and co-director of the Exeter Center for Ethno-Political Studies) minces no words in telling the real story of Zionist crimes against Palestinians. The price he paid: Effectively being forced out of his teaching post in the University of Haifa and ultimately out of the country of his birth. Up until 2007, he was a senior lecturer in the Department of Political Science at the University of Haifa but fearing for his and his family's safety, he felt impelled to leave Israel after he was bombarded with death threats.

Condemned by the Knesset, his picture had appeared in the country's biggest-selling newspaper at the center of a target. Next to it, a popular columnist addressed his readers thus: “I'm not telling you to kill this person, but I shouldn't be surprised if someone did.”

Why all this? Well the road to his semi-voluntary exile in Britain started in 2000-2001 with the Katz affair when Pappe defended Teddy Katz and his thesis on the 1948 massacre and expulsion of Palestinians from villages in the vicinity of Haifa. As a result he was vilified and compared to a Nazi collaborator. When Pappe signed on to a boycott of Israeli universities in 2002, he was accused of “defamation” in a disciplinary hearing and called to stand for trial in his university. His intent to teach a course on the Nakbah (Catastrophe) as well as his support for boycott on Israel has led the university to the conclusion that he can only be stopped by expulsion, as Pappe wrote in a letter about his threatened dismissal.

In 2006, Pappe published his controversial book “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” in which he explains and documents that the true goal of the founders of Zionism had always been to create a majority Jewish state, emptied as much as possible of the native Palestinian population. He meticulously and painfully reconstructs the story of how Zionist leaders, over many decades, carefully laid the groundwork for this expulsion and how they initiated their plan in 1948 when the British finally decided to leave. Pappe debunks the official line parroted in Israel and the West (and even by some misguided Arabs), maintaining that the refugee flight was not instigated by Arab leaders but rather caused by persecution, violence, expulsion.

http://arabnews.com/world/article619726.ece

[Behind the Aegis]

1. If he were PM, he would have destroyed Israel, so it would be a moot point.

[aquart]

2. Oh, those evil Jews. What would we do without the ARABNEWS?

But thank you for trying to think of more ways to get Jews killed.

[oberliner]

4. I am pretty sure I have no idea what any component of your response means

Ilan Pappe is a pretty influential figure in some circles. This interview sheds some light into where he is coming from on several related topics.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. Pappe is rarely heard let alone listened to outside of his anti-Israel circles

Where he is coming from is well known as is the bias of Arab News

[oberliner]

24. He is heard here from time to time

Quotes from him have appeared here.

And just today, there was this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11349311

[shira]

31. He has his cult following. n/t

[shaayecanaan]

6. It means that you're a Jew-killer now...

Apparently we all are. Wilkkommen!

[LeftishBrit]

10. Who is 'trying to think of more ways to get Jews killed'?

Arab News is a source for Middle Eastern opinion, that I think we should know about. Obviously, we should be aware that it has certain biases.

[shira]

3. Pappe defended Teddy Katz's fabrication of a 1948 massacre that never was...

Another proven liar quoted as a credible source by the Israel hating far Right and far Left.

[azurnoir]

7. yes the Tantura affaire' is rather interesting

as it is known that a mere 70-75 Arabs were killed prior to the village being 'evacuated' no massacre there
more

Tantura was part of an Arab enclave cutting off the road from Tel Aviv to Haifa.[16] On May 9, 1948, a decision was made to "expel or subdue" the villages of Kafr Saba, al-Tira, Qaqun, Qalansuwa and Tantura.[31] On May 11, David Ben-Gurion advised the Haganah to "focus on its primary task", which according to Ilan Pappe was the bi'ur (lit. cleansing) of Palestine.[32] According to Tiroshi Eitan, Tantura was ready to surrender in early May but not to relinquish its arms.[33] The Alexandroni Brigade launched an attack on Tantura under cover of darkness without waiting for the village to surrender.
Operation Namal

The British were in control of the Haifa port area until April 23, 1948.[34] The rest of the city fell to the Carmeli Brigade of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Carmel in Operation Misparayim. After the fall of Haifa, Arab villages on the slopes of Mount Carmel began attacking Jewish traffic on the main road to Haifa. The task of the Alexandroni Brigade was to reduce the Mount Carmel pocket. Tantura was chosen as the starting point for this operation, codenamed Namal, which took place on the night of May 22–23.[35] That night, Tantura was attacked and occupied by the Brigade's 33rd battalion. The attack commenced with heavy machine gun fire, followed by an infantry attack from all landwards sides with an Israeli naval vessel blocking off any chance of escape to the sea. By 800hrs on May 23, the battle was over, encountering little resistance.[36] According to an unsigned Haganah report, dozens of villagers were killed and 500 were taken prisoner (300 adult males and 200 women and children).[37]

Most of the villagers fled to the nearby town of Fureidis and territory controlled by the Arab League in the Triangle region near to what was to become the Green Line.[25] Women prisoners were taken to Fureidis.[38] On May 31, 1948, Bechor Shitrit, Minister of Minority Affairs of the Provisional government of Israel, sought permission to evict the Tantura women from Fureidis due to overcrowding, lack of sanitation and the risk of information being passed to unconquered villages.[39] A Ministry official, Ya'akov Epstein of Zikhron Ya'akov, who visited Tantura shortly after the operation, reported seeing bodies, but said nothing of a massacre. In 1998, Yihiya Yihiya published a book on Tantura recording the names of 52 dead.[40] The occupation of the village was followed by looting. Some of the items recovered by the Haganah included 'one carpet, one gramophone ... one basket with cucumbers ... one goat'.[41] The male prisoners of war were held on the beach before being transferred to Zichron Ya'akov police station[38] and put into labour battalions.[42]

In 1964, the IDF released an official history of "The Alexandroni Brigade in the War of Independence" in which 11 pages were devoted to al-Tantura. There was no mention of any expulsion. In 2004, Alexandroni veterans acknowledged the forced expulsion.[43]

This page was last modified on 16 April 2012 at 20:15.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura#Operation_Namal

resource cited as 43 above

http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/04-02-06morris-the-jerusalem-report-tantura.pdf

[shaayecanaan]

8. and did you know that some people call Tel Aviv the capital of Israel?

Truly, one of the great crimes against humanity to which we should all bear witness.

[shira]

11. The Guardian claims Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. Do you agree with that 'fact'? n/t

[shaayecanaan]

13. Holy fucking Jesus. Do they really?

and some people think that a peanut is a nut. Scandalous!

[shira]

14. It comes down to credibility. WRT facts, Guardian reporting can't be trusted...

Ten Years Since Something That Never Happened: A Learning Moment for the Guardian
http://hurryupharry.org/2012/04/14/ten-years-since-something-that-never-happened-a-learning-moment-for-the-guardian/

Their coverage of Jenin, as that article shows, is more than enough evidence that the Guardian is no better than Arutz Sheva when it comes to factual reporting.

[azurnoir]

15. ah 10 years can indeed blur the memory can't it?

the 'battle' of Jenin lasted from April 1 2002 to April 11 2002 (the date of the Guardian article) with IDF remaining in control and present in the camp till at least April 17 or 18 2002 also note that an IDF spokesman also claimed that

Reporting of casualty numbers during the invasion varied widely and fluctuated day to day. On April 10, the BBC reported that Israel estimated 150 Palestinians had died in Jenin, and Palestinians were saying the number was far higher.[60] That same day, Saeb Erekat, on a phone interview to CNN from Jericho, estimated that there were a total of 500 Palestinians killed during Operation Defensive Shield, this figure also including fatalities outside of the Jenin camp, in other areas of the West Bank.[61] On April 11, Ben Wedeman of CNN reported that Palestinians were reporting 500 dead, while international relief agencies were saying possibly as many as 200; he noted that his efforts to independently verify the claims had so far come to naught since people were being prevented from entering the camp by Israeli soldiers.[62]

On April 12, Brigadier-General Ron Kitri said on Israeli Army Radio that there are apparently hundreds of Palestinians killed in Jenin. He later retracted this statement.[63] Secretary-General of the Palestinian Authority, Ahmed Abdel Rahman, said that thousands of Palestinians had been killed and buried in mass graves, or lay under houses destroyed in Jenin and Nablus.[64] On April 13, Palestinian Information Minister, Yasser Abed Rabbo, accused Israel killing 900 Palestinians in the camp and burying them in mass graves.[65] On April 14, Ha'aretz reported that the exact number of Palestinian dead was still unknown, but that the IDF placed the toll between 100 and 200.[40] On April 18, Zalman Shoval, adviser to Sharon, said that only about 65 bodies had been recovered, five of them civilians.[45] On April 30, Qadoura Mousa, director of the Fatah for the northern West Bank, said the number of dead was fifty-six.[66]

This page was last modified on 9 April 2012 at 17:23.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin

[shira]

23. But you didn't comment on the article. Here it is again...

http://hurryupharry.org/2012/04/14/ten-years-since-something-that-never-happened-a-learning-moment-for-the-guardian/

What do you make of that?

[azurnoir]

25. yes I did comment on what happened in Jenin apparently you did not 'pick up' on

there were many conflicting reports including statements from IDF and the much maligned Guardian and CNN as well

[shira]

29. No, no, no. The article isn't just about Jenin but how it was reported...

What do you think of the way the Guardian covered it?

[azurnoir]

30. The Guardian's reporting of Jenin differed little from anyone elses including IDF radio

the report that's being complained about came out while Jenin was still occupied by IDF CNN reported similiar things, by April 30 2002 it was settled

[shira]

32. I don't think you read the article. It's not about what the Guardian originally....

...based their information on, whether the IDF or another source.

[azurnoir]

34. yes I did read Myrrh's article n/t

[Ken Burch]

16. It is and there's no good reason to say otherwise.

Why does it matter where the world says the capital is? Isn't it enough for you that the Knesset meets in Jerusalem? Why is it so important to get the world to formally say it's there?

[oberliner]

17. It is?

You are also saying that Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel?

[Ken Burch]

18. Why does it matter?

Can't things just be left where they are on the matter?

It's reactionary to insist that the world recognize the capital as Jerusalem. It's enough that it's the de facto capital.

Why insist on something there's no good reason to insist on?

Jerusalem is a permanently right-wing city. Tel Aviv is progressive. Why want the capital to be recognized as being in the city that will be right-wing forever(Jerusalem can't ever be progressive if its municipal politics are as far to the right as they are now.)

Of all the issues the Israeli government is a stickler on, this is the single most pointless. It does nothing but harm.

[oberliner]

20. You tell me

I have no idea why you would claim that it is okay to simply label one city as the capital of Israel even though Israel itself has not designated it as the capital city.

[Ken Burch]

21. Look, Jerusalem is the effective capital

So long as that's the case, why does it matter if the rest of the world formally recognizes it?

This just isn't worth Israel making a big deal over.

It's a minor issue compared to everything else...and it's mainly the Israeli right that obsesses over forcing the rest of the world to say that all of Jerusalem is in Israel, which is the real focus of the "everybody HAS to recognize Jerusalem as the capital" fetish.

What matters is ending the conflict...not haggling over side issues like this.

[shira]

33. Please stop with the straw man arguments...

This is not about forcing the rest of the world to admit Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.

Forget Jerusalem.

It's about insisting Tel Aviv is the capital when it's not. No more than Edinburgh is the capital of England, or Jenin the capital of a future Palestine.

[Ken Burch]

37. Edinburgh isn't actually in "England"...it's in Scotland.

Why do you even care where people SAY Israel's capital is, as long as the Knesset meets in Jerusalem?

This isn't an issue that's worth being uptight about.

[azurnoir]

38. actually Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland

so if there was any outrage it would be on the part of the Scots because that would mean Scotland was actually England

but ya know the state of perpetual outrage over every slight must be maintained I guess

[Ken Burch]

39. You're right of course.

n/t.

[shira]

40. You still don't get it or pretend not to...

Why do you even care where people SAY Israel's capital is, as long as the Knesset meets in Jerusalem?

It's not what "people" say. People can say whatever they want.

It's being reported by a news source as fact. That is the problem. But you don't mind when supposedly credible news outlets just wing it and make up crap, do you?

[Ken Burch]

41. It has no practical effect.

The Knesset won't end up meeting in Tel Aviv(even though peace would have been much easier to achieve if the Israeli capital had been there from the start...and I think you'd have to admit that Israel would have better governance if its parliament met in a progressive, secular city rather than a religious extremist encampment that's going to be right-wing in its municipal politics and inter-religious relations for the rest of eternity).

They should have just said that Jerusalem was the "spiritual capital" and left it at that. It was a disaster to put the political capital there. And only people like Bibi and Lieberman and those to their right ever benefited from the political capital being in the religious extremist center.

Tel Aviv is a modern city. Jerusalem is doomed to go back to the 12th Century. It can't be a city of peace, fraternity and equality. It can't be humane or beautiful. Tel Aviv represents what Israel was SUPPOSED to be. Jerusalem represents what the pro-hatred factions within Zionism want Israel to become...a country YOU would never want to live in, and a country that could never be progressive or humane after become what the extremists are turning it into now.

The only way to save anything progressive in Israel is to move the capital out of the city of hate, the city that can never recover from what it's degenerated into now, and move it to Tel Aviv, where humane secular, life-loving people still live.

I realize that won't happen, and that Israel's capital will stay in a right-wing city. And you realize that too, and that no new story can actually change that. So let it go already.

[shira]

26. Because it's one of many deliberate lies WRT Israel. Don't you expect...

...that when you read the news, it's really the news? That you can rely on the integrity of the reporting? That at the very least, media outlets are committed to honesty and accuracy? When they make mistakes, they're quick to correct themselves and committed to not making the same kind of mistakes over and over again?

Op-Eds and opinions are something else entirely as you should know what to expect.

[shira]

12. Katz lied. Pappe still supports Katz's crap. And not every battle of every war...

Last edited Mon Apr 30, 2012, 06:29 AM - Edit history (1)

....is a massacre. You realize that, right?

[azurnoir]

22. Did you read Benny Morris's piece in the PDF?

and yes Katz did lie or at least was careless in his reporting I say that because that he lied seems to be based on the words of 1 witness, whereas supposedly there were many however Morris did concur but added some detail, I found the whole thing interesting


eta I got my casualty number from Morris's piece

[shira]

27. Katz didn't just quote a dishonest 'witness'. He fabricated witness testimony.

But that's no biggie, right?

I'm assuming it's not, to anyone anti-Israel. The more lies, accusations, smearing, and delegitimization the better. The goal is to deliberately undermine support for Israel and isolate it. Facts be damned.

[azurnoir]

28. so your saying that Katz only interviewed that one person?

I didn't read that, what I read is that he disregarded what that one person allegedly told him, still pretty sloppy but it will hardly wipe Israel off the map

IMO the confession in 2004 by members of the Alexandroni Brigade that they did forcibly expel Palestinians from Tantura to be as bad as claims made by Katz

[oberliner]

35. Was this translated from Persian?

You meant to say vanish from the pages of time, right?

[azurnoir]

36. well at least you got my point

btw did you read Morris's piece in the PDF, of course you did right?

[oberliner]

42. I'm glad we all still have a sense of humor

Why would I read the PDF? I'm not in the middle of this debate. Keep me out of it!

[LeftishBrit]

9. He'll easily get elected PM of Israel on that platform!

if that's needed.

But it's an interesting article. I don't agree with most of what he says, but it's interesting to read it in full.

[Ken Burch]

19. I doubt Pappe was ever planning to try to become pm.

It's just not healthy for any country to drive people out in the way Pappe was driven out. Whatever he believes, he never deserved death, for God's sake.