Palestinian rockets: The conversation no one is having

[n2doc]

by Pam Bailey

As I write this, Israel continues to escalate its air attacks on the Gaza Strip, killing more than 100 Palestinians, of whom at least half were civilians; injuring more than 600; and displacing about 2,000 people from their homes. (The numbers vary widely by source and change by the minute.) The Israeli military has reportedly mobilized 40,000 reservists so that it can ramp up still further if it so decides. The justification for “Operation Protective Edge” is retaliation for rockets shot toward southern Israel, with some landing in Gazan fields, others intercepted by Israel’s Iron Dome system and a few making it in. (A full accounting is elusive, with varying reports in the media, often short on verifiable facts and long on emotional rhetoric.) To date, some Israeli property has been damaged, but no casualties and two injuries are reported.



It’s those Palestinian rockets that that are dominating the headlines, and that cause even normally sympathetic progressives to waffle in their condemnations of Israel’s ongoing collective punishment of the 1.7 million people corralled in Gaza. Yet there is very little direct, probing discussion of the topic. Is the line between provocation and retaliation really that clear? Is the use of violence to fight violence by some Palestinians somehow abnormal or unique? And what proportion of the population in Gaza is actually involved in the rocket attacks or supports the practice?

It’s time the peace community engages in this discussion, not just among ourselves but with those for whom the fight for liberation is real rather than academic: the Palestinians of Gaza.

Provocation vs. retaliation

Israel charges, and the media dutifully reports, that the provocateurs are Hamas and other groups in Gaza, typically labeled “militants” or “Islamists” (both code words for “terrorists”), unlike the more noble-sounding “rebels” or “resistance fighters” of Syria (which the U.S. government supports). But the question of “who started it” is not a simple one.

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http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/palestinian-rockets-conversation.html

[awake]

1. The question should not be who started it but how will it end

I do not have the answer but until we stop the game of backing one side over the other we will not find the end. Like many conflicts every body but the arms merchants loses.

[Fozzledick]

3. It will end when the rocket fire ends.

If Hamas remains unwilling to end it, then it will end when they are unable to continue.

[IronGate]

6. +1000. nt.

[COLGATE4]

50. + another 1000

[rainy]

53. We are all forgetting about the real fight

And it's over land. Remind me again who is occupying who's land in Gaza? Remember the Palestinians tried to elect calmer leaders than Hamas but they were ineffective because no one would listen to them. Hamas said they could help the people keep their land and they were filling the void.

[Fozzledick]

54. No, the real fight is over the attempt to destroy Israel

and the occupation is a necessary defense against that, as proven by the the rocket attacks from Gaza after Israel unilaterally withdrew.

[awake]

57. What would you do if someone uninvited occupied you house?

I am not condoning Palestine's rockets but I believe that the current government of Israel actions are undermining their own country.

[Fozzledick]

58. What would you do if someone fired artillery rockets at your house?

Nice try at diversion, but reality trumps fantasy.

[awake]

60. You mean ones like these

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017202376
Israeli "Knock on the Roof" bombing technique caught on video.

[Fozzledick]

61. In that case I'd get out pretty damn quick and not seek to deliberately become a "martyr".

but I don't see how I could get into that situation since I would never vote for or abide a belligerent totalitarian government that waged aggressive war on it's neighbors and deliberately drew defensive fire onto it's own population for propaganda purposes.

But in spite of your attempt to change the subject the point remains that the real reason for all the violence is the genocidal war to destroy Israel, not their defensive occupation of hostile territory.

[awake]

62. As said above I bet you would be hostile if someone took over your home

I am quit aware of Israel's plight and reasoning for their action I wonder if you can understand the anger of the Palestinians.
I am in no way asking that you support their response or their tactics for I do not but I can understand a small bit where they are coming from.

[Fozzledick]

63. Still trying to change the subject to an irrelevant fantasy because you can't address the reality.

I get that, but I don't see why I should waste any more time on it.

[Shaktimaan]

64. Simple.

Remind me again who is occupying who's land in Gaza?

No one. The Israeli occupation of Gaza ended in 2005.

[shira]

2. This article is vile, attempting to distract from Hamas' gross war crime....

....violations against Israelis and their own people. Hamas' hate must be contextualized, explained, minimized.

The author even denies Hamas' human shield strategy in the comments below the article....proving she couldn't give a shit about the Palestinian lives she purports to care about.

[Scootaloo]

4. Exactly as you do with Israel

Tell me again Shira, how blowing up a care home for the mentally disabled is absolutely essential for Israel's defense.

[IronGate]

5. Tell us again Scootaloo,

how is using civilian neighborhoods, hospital grounds, and possibly that care center justified by Hamas?
And using civilians as human shields. how is that ok?

[awake]

10. Nice more us vs them

Like blame will solve anything I see way way too many mothers suffering the loss of their love ones.
Is it possible to see another's view point and try to find common ground for a true lasting peace?

[IronGate]

12. Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and all the other terrorist groups

don't want peace with Israel, their singular goal is the total destruction of the Israeli State, nothing less.

[COLGATE4]

51. The ONLY goal, to the very fiber of their being and

the thrust of all their educational programs for their children is that Palestine is only for the Palestinians and that the Jews are to be driven into the sea. Anything else is less than cheap lip service in pursuit of naive foreign supporters.

[shira]

17. Big difference. But first....

1. Do you find anything objectionable within the OP? If so, what? Was I right?

2. The difference is that what Hamas is doing is totally illegal, unjustified, and immoral. Israel is abiding by International Law & doing a better job than any other (Western) military when it comes to civilian lives (no matter what anti-Israel propagandists are bullshitting about).

3. If it were up to you, Israelis would be constantly under fire and within bomb shelters forever, with loss of life building up into the 100's, 1000's, and more over time. You don't have a moral leg to stand on.

[IronGate]

7. +1000. nt.

[Fred Sanders]

8. The body count is now 150 to 0, not to mention a thousand maimed.......those darn Palestinians

should know that it is 300 to 1 as the officially accepted ratio of dead Palestinians to Israelis.

Those human shields are not going on sale on the human shield market any time soon, totally useless.

[IronGate]

9. Maybe if the terrorist org, Hamas, quit using civilian areas as

launching positions for their terrorist rockets, the casualty rate would be much, much lower.
You think?

Maybe if the terrorist org., Hamas, quits using innocent Palestinian civilians as human shields, the casualty rate would be much, much lower?
You think?

[awake]

14. Can you not see that to Palestinians Israel's bombs terrorizes them

I do not have a dog in this fight I just want to see ALL the killing to stop!

[IronGate]

18. We all want to see the killing stopped,

and if Hamas would quit firing rockets into Israel, the Israeli's would stop retaliating.
Hamas has no intention of making peace with Israel, their goal, along with Iran, Hezbollah and every other terrorist org in the region, is the total destruction of Israel.

Given that mindset, I don't blame Israel one iota for defending their country and trying to root out the Hamas terrorists.

[Fred Sanders]

19. On side is frightened and must in occasion run to a shelter.....the other is.....dead.

[shira]

21. So your solution is....? n/t

[Fozzledick]

23. One side build shelters for it's people

the other side spends all it's resources on offensive weapons.

[WhiteTara]

28. The only killing is on the Israeli side

Hamas (?) is firing rockets that rarely make it to Israel.

This is sickening and certainly not the actions of a rational state. MHO only of course.

[awake]

33. While most of the killing is now being done by Israel, 3 teenagers were killed as well

a few Israelis may have died as a result of the air raids.
I do not believe in an "eye for an eye" or a 157 eyes for 3 eyes

If killing is the answer then the wrong question is being asked

[awake]

16. It should not be about evening the score

Hurting someone else will not heal your pain

[Fozzledick]

13. Hey, Hamas is doing their best to get more Palestinians killed

but Israeli is also doing their best to minimize casualties, as they always do.

It's a constant struggle between the two.

[Fred Sanders]

20. Right. Seems Hamas is minimizing the casualties much better.

[Fozzledick]

22. Israel is much better on defense, Hamas doesn't even try.

[Fred Sanders]

26. 150 dead. The best defence is a good offence, of course I agree. 150 to 0, it is indefensible.

With a defence that slaughters by the 1000's with no casualties on your side is an excellent defence.

[Fozzledick]

27. That's Hamas' strategy. Crazy, huh?

[Fred Sanders]

30. You are getting close. Crazy is the operative word for the Isrseli propaganda, but you already know.

[awake]

31. Shooting down incoming rockets is defense Killing disabled is OFFENSIVE

[shira]

47. Killing disabled is offensive if the intent is deliberate murder....

When Hamas purposely fires from civilian locations or hides their weapons there, those locations become legitimate military targets.

Your fight is with the Geneva Conventions.

[Fred Sanders]

15. I will be talking to myself on this thread, the usual propaganda of if only they would stop with the

bottle rockets, we would stop with the entire military might of an armed to the teeth nation being used to incinerate and obliterate people by the thousands...... while said nations people suffer barely at all. It is after all, the American way to conduct war.

If only the Palestinian people (they are still "people"' right, do they not bleed when stabbed...or bombed?) would get out of the way of missiles and bombs, they would be not so nearly as dead, if maybe they all stood out in a field while Israel destroyed their homes, if one the bottle rocket launchers would clearly superset themselves in the most densely populated area on the planet......if only people had compassion instead of all consuming hate. If only Palestine had the propaganda war machine that Israel deploys as rapidly as it's jet fighters and missiles, thanks for the stuff, America, it is being used to kill women and children without consequence.

Hamas versus Israel, a militia versus a national army, you can not equate that with all the propaganda in the world.

150 to 0, do the math.

[Fozzledick]

24. Once you dismiss Hamas' terrorist attacks as "bottle rockets" we know you're not serious.

[Fred Sanders]

29. Firecrackers? Unguided rockets? Prefer just rockets?

And on the Israeli side....jets, tanks, missiles, guided laser bombs, endless equipment supplied free by America.....you do understand the difference between a militia and a national army, because it seems not?

Edit: you propaganda pushers are getting boring......time to move on...see your propaganda later.

[Fozzledick]

32. The proper term is "artillery rockets".

Anti-personnel artillery rockets with fragmentation warheads designed specifically to rip human flesh apart, and deliberately aimed at infants and schoolchildren for maximum terror effect.

[awake]

34. Please lets stay real the "artillery rockets" can hardly be "aimed" at any one

the are fired off in a direction with very little guidance.

[Fozzledick]

35. Hamas deliberately fires them in the direction of nurseries and kindergartens.

Their intent couldn't be more clear.

[awake]

36. This is the 1st that I have heard of how well that the rockets can be aimed

Do you have a link to this information

[Fozzledick]

37. Their intent is obvious.

Your attempt to rationalize it by quibbling over accuracy is disingenuous and offensive.

[awake]

38. From your point of view the rockets are an attack on incessant children

From the others point of view they are resistance to oppression. From the Palestine's point of view the Israeli bombs are an attack on their right to self determination from the others point of view the bombs are a act of self defense.

There will be no solution to this conflict till both side start to view this form the others view point.

[Fozzledick]

41. I wonder what your "point of view" on the Boston Marathon bombing is.

[awake]

55. Like all senseless killing I was horrified.

[Fozzledick]

56. From the bombers' point of view it must have been "resistance to oppression".

It's one thing to understand that point of view, it's quite another to ask that it be taken seriously.

[awake]

59. I wish the Boston Bomber had been taken more seriously before he acted

It has been reported US government had information that he might pose a threat but did not act on it in a timely matter.
As far as the middle east goes it seems that no one wants to take finding a peaceful resolution seriously, which is truly sad.

[shira]

39. Seriously, what do u think Hamas intends w/ their rocket fire? n/t

[awake]

40. If they could aim them I would guess they would want to hit the Israeli army

It is not in their interest to kill babies but then it is not in Israel's interest to kill the disabled.
I am afraid neither side has any idea what the real end game is. Hate seem to have clouded any vision of a sane way out at this point.

[shira]

42. If they wanted to hit just the Israeli army, they'd have sent...

....their suicide bombers at military targets rather than civilian. They would express regret at hitting civilian targets, rather than celebrating Israeli civilian deaths & naming streets, buildings, and parks after murderers.

Take a look at these excerpts from the Hamas Covenant (Charter) and lemme know what you think of it:
http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

[awake]

44. It would be interesting to read what Hamas said rather than what

the "Information Division, Israel Foreign Ministry" wrote

[shira]

45. Google Hamas Covenant or Charter yourself. Compare to the IFM document. n/t

[awake]

49. Just to be clear I condemn all aggression in the middle east

no mater what rational is used to defend any killing of civilians including by the U.S., Israel, Palestine... or any group, army ect.

[King_David]

43. Romanticized view of Hamas ,

They admitted aiming rockets at the nuclear reactor in an attempt at mass murder suicide.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113466694

[awake]

46. I do NOT support Hamas or Romanticize them

I just think it might be helpful to try to understand where both sides are coming from, because with out understanding there can be no end of the violence that is raging, right now the only thing that I see growing is more Hate. I do not understand what ether side thinks that the out come of this will be, other than creating more aggression.

[shira]

48. I agree that it's important to understand where both sides are coming from....

So I invite you to find the Hamas Charter/Covenant from a website you trust, & read it.