PMO: Netanyahu Wants To Prepare International Public Opinion For Gaza Operation

[Purveyor]

Likud ministers have been competing since Sunday morning over who will threaten Hamas with harsher words, but it does not seem as though Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is jumping at the chance to launch an operation in Gaza. A source in the Prime Minister's Office said Sunday in a press briefing that Netanyahu is conducting hasbara - efforts to explain and justify Israel's policies to the rest of the world – in order to "prepare international public opinion for an Israeli operation in Gaza."

Netanyahu has been sustaining harsh public criticism due to the continued rocket fire into southern Israel, but he understands that Israel does not have international legitimacy to launch an operation in Gaza at the moment. The stalled peace talks, the international criticism of settlement construction, the tension in Israel-Egypt ties, and the situation on the Syria border put Israel in a sensitive situation, and any operation in Gaza could bring about dangerous diplomatic consequences.

Likud ministers, who were trying to present an intransigent front ahead of the primaries, harshly threatened Hamas. Ministers Moshe Ya'alon, Yisrael Katz, Yuli Edelstein and others called to renew targeted assassinations on Hamas leaders.

At the cabinet meeting on Sunday morning, Netanyahu said: "The world needs to understand that Israel will not sit with arms crossed when faced by attempts to hurt us," Netanyahu told ministers at the weekly cabinet meeting, after more than 40 rockets struck Israel over the course of Sunday morning. "We are prepared to intensify our response."

MORE...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/pmo-netanyahu-wants-to-prepare-international-public-opinion-for-gaza-operation.premium-1.476835#

[bemildred]

1. I think Bibi's more interested in what's happening up North.

Getting entangled in Gaza right now would be risky, in lots of ways.

[morningfog]

98. I agree and hope you are right.

That should be the greater concern for Israel.

[bemildred]

105. Right now, it's doesn't look like I'm right.

But this may be just warming up, who knows what games are being played? Which is the head fake and which the main effort? Is this just military theater, electioneeering, or is there something bigger afoot?

This does seem like it might affect the UN Observer status vote too ...

[Larkspur]

2. Bibi's logic reminds me of the view of General Sherman towards Native Americans...

"the only good Indian is a dead one."

I pray that Karma brings about an ignoble end to Bibi. the Likud and their political allies.

[hack89]

3. That quote also encapsulates Hama's attitude towards Jews very well.

hence the mess both sides presently find themselves in.

[Larkspur]

6. Israel has the 5th most powerful military in the world

I shed no tears for them.

Hamas basically have glorified fireworks to launch at Israel.
Hamas' rockets are inferior to Israel's.

As long as Israel wants to keep stealing Palestinian lands, they will be viewed as a pariah by most of the world, including many Americans who are pissed that our taxes are going to help an apartheid nation that has itself murdered Americans with impunity.

Zionism = a mutant form of Western European colonialism.

[hack89]

7. Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians

The Palestinians were firing rockets from Gaza within hours. Do you see how this might be counter productive if your aim is to persuade Israel to give up even more land?

Make stupid choices and pay the price.

[azurnoir]

9. why are you conflating Gaza with the West Bank?

didn't we just have a discussion upstairs about the differences?

eta to clarify Gaza is ruled by Hamas which wrested power by coup in 2007 and booted out the PA, the PA controls the West bank and it is the PA/PLO that is approaching the UN, Hamas is not allowed any power in the West Bank and its members are frequently arrested there by both Israel and PA security, something when it is done by the PA we see cynically put forward as the PA suppressing political opposition in the West Bank rather than suppressing terrorism

[hack89]

11. Because the conversation was about Hamas? And the OP is about Gaza?

pay attention before jumping into sub threads.

[azurnoir]

15. except I have been paying attention and it was this part of your comment being addressed

The Palestinians were firing rockets from Gaza within hours. Do you see how this might be counter productive if your aim is to persuade Israel to give up even more land?

it is the Palestinians in the West Bank not Gaza asking Israel to "give up more land"

[hack89]

17. So you are arguing that Israel has to make a separate peace with each Palestinian faction?

I thought we were talking about justice for the Palestinian people and the Palestinian nation. Now you are telling me that they are so split they cannot be seen as a united people. Tell me again why you think they are ready to run a country. Or are there to be several different Palestinian nations?

[azurnoir]

18. I am telling that at the present time Gaza and the West Bank are under 2 separate governments

but then again I would think anyone paying attention over the past 5 years would already know that but I can also understand how someone who was opposed to a Palestinian State might want for this purpose to say they were one one and the same

[hack89]

21. The Palestinian are demonstrating why they are not ready to run a country

What is Israel to do? There can be no Palestinian state until the Palestinians are unified. How can Israel make any agreement with either faction until it is clear who will run a unified Palestinian state? Hamas would never agree to any agreement made between Israel and the PA and I am sure the PA feels the same regarding Hamas.

The Palestinians are being ill served by both the PA and Hamas - but it is not Israels job to save the PA or Hamas from themselves. If the Palestinians refuse to do the work necessary for a state then the lack of a state can not be laid at Israel's feet.

[azurnoir]

25. ah okay so you are saying that Hamas controls the show

sorry but that is not true and at the moment what Hamas says regarding the West Bank has little sway with either the Quartet which includes our government but I see you've studied the talking points quite well kudo's "it's never ever Israel's fault that they are maintaining military rule and colonizing project in the West Bank

[hack89]

54. No - I am saying the Palestinians are hopelessly divided

so how is it possible for there to be a Palestinian state?

Israel is not going to make a separate peace with the PA. The West Bank and Gaza together will be Palestine, correct? So future of both Gaza and the West Bank are linked.

[azurnoir]

55. Israel refuses to speak with Hamas at least publically as does the US

and it seems that the Quartet does speak with the PA, however if unity were to happen between Hamas and the PA then Hamas would be the excuse, IOW damned if they damned if they don't , but it is a nice excuse to deny the right of self determination to an entire people kudo's

[hack89]

62. I support an independent Palestinian state

that includes the dismantlement of the settlements. I just can't see how it will happen with the Palestinian hopeless divided and one faction actively waging war against Israel.

[Mosby]

12. your comment about Zionism is bullshit.

I guess the truth about Jews long term presence in the middle east and Palestine must bother you a lot for some reason.

The rest of your post is reality challenged as well.

[azurnoir]

16. well of course because the Palestinians got imported from where China?

there was never ever an Arab presence in Palestine prior to 1921 they stampeded in from elsewhere or so we've been told

[Mosby]

20. palestinian nationalism started about 100 years ago

Much of it developed as a reaction to Jewish immigration.

That's about TWO THOUSAND NINE HUNDRED YEARS less than the Jews.

[azurnoir]

26. and Jewish nationalism (Zionism) started about 130 years ago

so your claiming that 30 years makes all of Israel along with Judea and Samara the possession of the 'Jews'*

the switch off from Israel to Jews in the comment I am replying to is why I used the term here in my comment

[King_David]

31. Until they stop with the

"Hamas basically have glorified fireworks to launch at Israel. "

Israel has a democratic right and duty to destroy them ( Hamas) by all means necessary...

[shira]

32. Do you shed tears for the 1.4M Israelis under attack from Hamas...

...like you do for Palestinian civilians?

And you may want to see this before you claim Hamas launches glorified fireworks:

[larkrake]

78. yes, a few killers will kill many innocents

Luckily, the smart Arabs will leave. Israel will engage in genocide.

[shira]

83. Israel will engage in genocide? Umm....okay. n/t

[shira]

4. Riiiight. 160 rockets have fallen into Israel since Saturday...

Today is Monday, just 3 days later...

What other country on the planet would restrain itself and not go to war?

[Larkspur]

5. When non-violent Palestinians are treated the same as terrorists

Israel reaps what it sows.

[shira]

22. You mean 1.4 million Israelis are reaping rockets in return...

But I guess they're not as human as Palestinian civilians, so they get no sympathy.

And BTW, Hamas needs no excuses.

They'll find anything will work as an excuse when they set their mind to killing people.

[Larkspur]

69. Yes, most Israelis support the oppression of Palestinians, so they are

reaping what their government is sowing.

[King_David]

75. So the civilians of Gaza will collectively reap what Hamas is sowing?

That argument for collective punishment makes no sense.

[shira]

84. No. Collective punishment vs. Israelis = good. Against Palestinians = bad. n/t

[Larkspur]

91. Israel makes the argument for collective punishment every day. For every Israeli killed

at least 400 Palestinians must die.
Israelis and Palestinians Killed in the Current Violence
At least 6,617 Palestinians and 1,097 Israelis have been killed since September 29, 2000.

Israel has a superior modern day military force compared to the Palestinians, who have none.
Hamas' rockets are no where near the technical sophistication that Israel's are and Israel has many more military tools to use. So the moral burden of responding to Hamas' rocket attacks lies with the more powerful Israel, who is NOT an honest broker in the peace process. To keep painting Israel as an innocent lamb trying to protect itself from the Hamas wolves is an untruthful description of the 2 sides. Israel is the wolf and Hamas is a coyote.

But the solution to Hamas' militancy and a secured peace for Israel and the Palestinian people lies not in military solutions, but in honest attempts to build peace. As long as the Israeli fascists are in power to steal Palestinian lands, there will be no peace because they don't want it. They need to be humbled.

[King_David]

94. Hamas is fighting against the occupation .

The occupation of Israel that is..

How do you make peace with them ?

[Larkspur]

124. Israel once would not talk with the PLO, but it eventually did

Israel was talking with the Hamas leader they recently assassinated for a ceasefire. What that act tells the world is that it is Israel, not Hamas, who does not want peace talks. Slaughtering Palestinians allows Israel to steal more land.

[King_David]

125. Hamas wants Israel... sans Jews

That's what they aim for .

[Larkspur]

126. Hamas, like the PLO before the, have also indicated that they would recognize Israel if a fair and

just peace could be reached.

[King_David]

127. Hamas has indicated it would " Recognize Israel "

Really ? Link...

[azurnoir]

8. so Israel has done nothing in retailiation? no bombing no Palestinians killed nothing?

is that the impression your attempting to make?

[shira]

23. Obviously, the tit-for-tat isn't effective...

So does Israel have your permission to kick the crap out of Hamas?

[azurnoir]

27. "crap out of Hamas: or kick the crap out of Gaza

but I would suppose they have your permission, right? and well if there's 'collateral' like dead civilians that's not Israel's fault or responsibility is it? Hamas forced those bombs to drop right?

[shira]

29. So you'd say 1.4M Israelis should just grin & bear it? n/t

[azurnoir]

33. is that what they're doing now? isn't IDF proitecting them? n/t

[shira]

35. How can the IDF protect from all Hamas' rockets? n/t

[azurnoir]

52. and invading will accomplish that -how? it didn't last time

or is simply killing lots of Palestinians a method of defense?

[shira]

60. So what should Israel do? Lie down, take it? n/t

[Mosby]

10. haaretz is getting wierd

I don't know how to describe it, the Israelis now need something called "international legitimacy" before they are allowed to defend their citizens from attack?

Does anyone in Israel take haaretz seriously anymore?

[Purveyor]

14. The better question is 'does anyone take israel seriously...anymore'? oem

[King_David]

39. Yes Obama and The Democratic party,

They are taking Israel very seriously, thankfully.

[morningfog]

99. They have long been at war. It is silly when we all act

like this hasn't been a decades long war. It goes hotter and cold, but has never ceased.

Do you know how many rockets have fallen in Israel in, say, the past ten years compared to the number of rockets, bombs and troops that have been engaged in Gaza in the same time?

[shira]

102. Are you equating Israel's response to rockets with the rockets themselves?

Hamas admits they do it to kill lots of Jews.

They celebrate when it happens.

[morningfog]

103. I am asking if you know the numbers of rockets,

or other means of killing, that have been delivered from one side to the other over the past decade.

Or the number of deaths caused, respectively, by each side.

[shira]

104. I believe it's vile to compare Hamas' aggression vs. Israel's defense.

Doing so only sanitizes Hamas' actions and helps to promote even more attempts by them to murder as many Israelis as possible.

[morningfog]

114. Vile? Innocent people are dying on both sides. I think it is a perfectly fair

question to ask.

[shira]

115. Yes, vile. By equating Hamas to the IDF, you're sanitizing Hamas' attempts...

...at mass murder. Like a whitewash.

It's like comparing Charles Manson to one of his last victims who (pretend scenario) kills him before he gets the chance.

Vile.

[morningfog]

118. The IDF does not have clean hands. Not anywhere near it.

How many attacks has Israel carried out in Gaza in the past 10 years compared to the attacks carried out by Hamas?

And, how many innocent people are each responsible for? There are legitimate questions.

[shira]

119. According to UN records, Israel is best with civilians in combat...

Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media.[39]

The UN estimate that there has been an average three-to-one ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in such conflicts worldwide. Three civilians for every combatant killed. That is the estimated ratio in Afghanistan: three to one. In Iraq, and in Kosovo, it was worse: the ratio is believed to be four-to-one. Anecdotal evidence suggests the ratios were very much higher in Chechnya and Serbia. In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one.”[40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

Facts are facts.

And it's vile to compare the IDF to Hamas.

You're trying to equate the worst to the best. When playing this game of deflection (blame Israel 24/7) you're sanitizing Hamas' attempts at mass murder.

[morningfog]

120. I am glad that Israel, statistically, has a better kill ratio thatn NATO an others.

That still doesn't answer my question. What is the comparison of innocents to have been killed by each side, respectively. What is the ratio of Israel killings of civilians to Hamas? What is the ratio of attacks?

I am not a blame Israel solely person. Neither side should be praised. You call Hamas attempted mass murderers. Again, what is the count of innocent deaths attributable to each side over the past ten years, or even just the past 5 years.

[shira]

121. I don't buy the proportionality argument...

That argument is only used in I/P discussion; nowhere else in the world. To me, that means not enough Israelis got killed to justify Israel's response. Ugh. The only reason more Israelis haven't been killed is due to the enormous resources Israel has put into bomb shelters, iron dome, warning systems, and of course sheer luck. Hamas would party like it's 1999 if they bombed a school with hundreds dead. They really are attempting mass murder.

[morningfog]

122. Dodge, dodge, dodge. It isn't proportionality we are talking about.

It is killing innocent people. I don't buy your assertion that this only comes up in I/P discussions. Every war debates the loss of innocent lives.

I understand why you try so hard to avoid the question though. It is an ugly and telling answer.

[King_David]

38. Hamas it seems is praying too

for the end of The Jewish State.

[Ken Burch]

13. Sounds like Bibi just wants to kill him some Muslims before the election.

Iranians, Palestinians...ANY will do, looks like.

Yet another reason Israelis can't let this maniac have another term. Bibi cares more about looking macho than he ever cared about keeping Israel safe.

[shira]

24. 160 rockets putting 1.4 million Israelis into bunkers the past 3 days....

...should be a good enough excuse for any country to wage war on an enemy doing that to them.

Does Israel have your permission to defend the 1.4 million Israelis being attacked?

[azurnoir]

28. and the 1.6 million Gazan who do not have bunkers because Israel will not allow the building materia

for such shelters into Gaza and openly admits that is part of the reason why building materials are not allowed to enter Gaza, what about them I guess they do not count?

[shira]

30. 1.6M Gazans are not Israel's targets, are they?

Where's your sympathy for Hamas' 1.4M Israeli targets?

[azurnoir]

34. so you are claiming that IDF will only be killing Hamas

or is that Palestinian civilians just aren't that important? Israeli have layers of protection from bunkes to high tech anti- missile systems to the largest military in the region

[shira]

37. So no sympathy for 1.4M Israelis being targeted...

And no condemnation of Hamas forthcoming for the rocket barrage, and for using their civilians and children as shields.

[azurnoir]

41. so Palestinian civilians are human sheilds because they live in Gaza got it

why doesn't Israel move it civilian population out harms way then is there a different standard being applied here once again it would appear so

[shira]

59. No outrage at Hamas for human shields? Got it. n/t

[Ken Burch]

46. You don't have to support an Israeli attack on Gaza

to prove you are sympathetic to the Israelis who happen to be in the line of fire of the rockets.

It's enough to say that no civilians should be attacked.

[shira]

57. so what should Israel do? n/t

[Ken Burch]

45. There was no good reason to deny Gazan civilians safe places to hide

You know perfectly well that Gazan civilians don't have the ability to stop Hamas from firing the rockets.

Those civilians are just as innocent as the Israeli civilians are.

[shira]

58. There's no good reason to run interference for Hamas

Blame Hamas for using its civilians deliberately as human shields, firing rockets from densely populated areas dressed in civilian clothes, etc...

That's their choice, not Israel's.

[Ken Burch]

67. I'm not running interference for Hamas. I'm speaking out for the people of Gaza

And those people can't do anything to stop Hamas from doing what it does, so they shouldn't have to suffer for it(just as, of course, Israeli citizens shouldn't have to suffer for what Bibi does).

[King_David]

80. Some people here on DU think Israeli citizens shouldn't have to suffer for what Bibi does.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=21382

[shira]

85. But you never call out Hamas for using human shields...

...child militants, firing from civilian areas, dressing in civilian clothes during combat, etc.

You think Hamas doesn't appreciate when those claiming to be pro-Palestinian blame Israel exclusively, allowing Hamas carte blanche to do what they will vs. Israelis as well as Palestinians?

[King_David]

36. So maybe then Israel should just lie back

And enjoy it ?

Hamas should worry and do something to prevent harm coming to the Palestinians ..
It's not in Israel's hands ... They should not worry about the harm that may befall others in order to protect their own ... This is their obligation . Protection and safety of the Gazan Palestinians is Hamas' duty .. And they have the power to stop Israel (stop the terror).

It's not Israel's worry ...

[King_David]

40. So what to do about the rockets?

Ignore them?

Jews do not believe in the concept of lambs to the slaughter , not since 1948 , we have evolved.

It is the States obligation and duty to protect their citizens by any means possible.

[azurnoir]

42. why do you replace Israelis with Jews?

or are you saying that Jewish Israeli's are the only ones that matter here?

[King_David]

43. The Majority of that State are Jews...Israel is The Jewish State,

Always will be...

That is why a 1 state will NEVER happen

Like Iran ,Egypt,Jordan,Turkey and Syria etc etc etc are Muslim States , and Arab/Persian/Turkish states even though not everyone living there are so....

The ones making the decisions to protect the rest ,at this time,happen to be Jews.And they live by the principles outlined in my post.

Since 1948 things changed in Jewish philosophy. We no longer believe in going meekly like lambs...

And they all believe that philosophy.

[azurnoir]

44. by that reasoning America and Canada are the White or European or Caucasian states

and you state that only Jews in Israel have the power to make such decisions, interesting because at least 20% of Israels population is not Jewish and that does not count the non-Jews it has military jurisdiction over - interesting

[King_David]

48. So there is no Jewish State?

ok , thanks for clarifying that....but...

"President Obama said there should be two states: Palestine as the homeland for the Palestinian people and Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people"



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

[azurnoir]

50. yes as the POTUS Israel there is that

he did not mention the Jewish State he said Israel and it was ordained the Jewish homeland by the UN but it not officially called the Jewish state

[King_David]

51. The Jewish State is a reality, deny it all you want,it makes no difference to us,

Someone once wrote a book about it and it became real.

'The Jewish State '

http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-State-Theodor-Herzl/dp/1599869985

[azurnoir]

53. yes Israel is a reality the Jewish Stae is a meme an ideal of what some want Israel to be

however at least 1 in 5 in the state of Israel are not Jews

and who are are the "us"in your quote?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

71. it makes no difference to us...

Just like apartheid.

Just like Palestinian suffering.

Just like the theft of Palestinian lands.

Just like running Gaza like a prison.

Just like illegal Israeli settlements.


It makes no difference to us.


Yeah. We all have your number, King D.

[King_David]

72. 'We all have your number'

Do not really understand what you are accusing me of here, please say it in plain english.

I am really interested.

Clearly I am getting under your skin, so just say it so I can understand.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

73. I'm sure we all understand that you understand.

Just like apartheid.

Just like Palestinian suffering.

Just like the theft of Palestinian lands.

Just like running Gaza like a prison.

Just like illegal Israeli settlements.


It makes no difference to us.

[King_David]

74. Ok whatever...

I do not want to continue this juvenile exchange much more,but again with the 'Apartheid' thing when it has been pointed out to you by Shaktimaan many times that you do not understand what the word means.

cYa

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

77. Have you friended Shaktimaan yet? Talk about juvenile.

So let's get back to your apparent indifference to illegal settlements, Palestinian suffering and the Israeli apartheid state.

[shira]

86. If you're really interested in apartheid and not indifferent to it vs. Palestinians....

...then why not comment on Lebanese apartheid vs. Palestinian refugees? Most Palestinians in Lebanon were born there but can't vote, own property, or work in many professions.

Or are you indifferent to that?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

92. If you're really interested in apartheid and not indifferent to Israeli usage of it

then you wouldn't try and deflect to another topic such as Lebanon.

I am talking about Palestine while you are trying to blow smoke up our ass.


Your Epic fail, not mine, amateur.

[shira]

95. And that goes to show you really aren't interested in talking apartheid.

FAIL.

I mean, what kind of person claiming to be a pro-Palestinian progressive refuses to call out Lebanese apartheid vs. Palestinians for what it really is?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

97. And that goes to show you really aren't interested in talking Israeli apartheid.

Keep on blowing that smoke up our backside. Perhaps you can get a job at the circus and make a living out of it.

Keep on deflecting away criticism from Israel at all costs. You're like a foot soldier with two left feet.

[shira]

101. I thought you wanted to talk apartheid vs. Palestinians. Guess not. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

106. Keep on blowing that smoke up our arse. You're really good at it.

[shira]

107. You asked how many Palestinians live in settlements...

You got your answer here. Thousands....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113420074#post81

Your response to that?

Now that you got your answer and see that your racial segregation theory is crap, answer me this one:

Those who falsely accuse Israel of apartheid vs. Palestinians never once mention apartheid vs. Palestinians throughout the Arab world, like in Lebanon for example.

Why?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

111. Did you even bother to read the article???? Are you fu*king kidding me?

Nowhere did it say in the article that thousands of Palestinians live in illegal Israeli settlements.


Did you bother to read the title of the article. Here it is.

The war on the Palestinian olive harvest


The article did say that:

Some 80,000 Palestinians families depend on the annual olive harvest for their livelihoods. This year alone, settlers, with the backing of the army, have destroyed or damaged thousands of olive trees, threatening both a major source of income and an age-old agricultural custom.

and...

The carcass of a car rests in the bottom of a cistern. According to Breaking the Silence, an organization of veteran combatants that works to expose to the Israeli public to the realities of the occupation, it had been placed there by local settlers in order to contaminate collected rainwater with rust.

and...

This is the village of Susya al-Qadima. There is an absence here of local infrastructure, as Israeli civil authorities repeatedly deny building permits, and the entire village has been issued pending demolition orders. Unlike the much younger neighboring Jewish settlement of Susya, it doesn’t get much more arid and inaccessible in the West Bank than here.

and...

Year after year, West Bank farmers experience multiple types of restrictions and physical attacks. In the first week of this year’s olive harvest, more than 870 olive trees were vandalized or destroyed by settlers, according to the United Nations. Hundreds more are reported to have since been damaged or destroyed across the West Bank.

and...

A total of some 7,500 olive trees belonging to Palestinians were destroyed or damaged by settlers between January and mid October 2012, according to a recent report by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

...and it goes on and on an on, but it doesn't say that 80,000 Palestinian families live in illegal Israeli settlements. In fact if you had bothered to read the article it mentions that the Palestinian village named in the article is set for demolition while a younger "Jewish" settlement (see definition for illegal) exists nearby. This is what the Palestinians have to contend with daily.

The article in and of itself gives credence to the position that Israelis are not only shutting off Palestinians from their farms, but their own homes as well: pushing them out and killing their livelihoods.


So I will ask you this. Did you even bother to read the article? You seem confused. Perhaps you were going to post a different article, one in which you didn't try to refute in the tread from the original source by DU Member azurnoir, but I don't know how you would post to an article that doesn't exist.

So, no crickets for me. Not only should you be ashamed, for not doing your homework and reading the article, trying to pass of an article that has no factual basis for what you claim, posting to an article that makes my case and showcases Israeli aggression to Palestinians, but you should be the most ashamed for trying to move the dialog away from Israeli ham-handed oppression of Palestinians, which is killing them in their own land while robbing them of home and livelihood, and moving it to a different country where Palestine doesn't exist.


So if you could give your mailing address I will send your parents a shiny quarter so they can get you the help you so richly deserve in order for you to stop living in a world of fiction.

[shira]

113. No, not the OP. See post #81 in that same thread...

Once you click on that link, you have to wait a few seconds to be taken to my answer to you from a week ago. Anyway, here's a duplicate of that post:

Also...

In 2007, the latest year with available statistics, about 1,300 of Pisgat Zeev's 42,000 residents were Arabs. In nearby French Hill, population 7,000, nearly one-sixth are Arabs, among them students at the neighboring Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Neve Yaakov, with 20,000 people, had 600 Arabs, according to the Israel Center for Jerusalem Studies, a respected think tank.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32702595/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa#.UJUoMjlAtvc

Apartheid?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

123. Yes, Apartheid.

Once again did you even bother to watch the whole video, or did you forget about that?


I watched it a few times.

Here's the answers you were possibly hoping I wouldn't find.

190,000 settlers living on Palestinian land with a possible 3,300 Palestinians living there as well.

And here are the reasons why from the video with timecode.

Oh, BTW I am adding the transcript so you can't BS your way out of this one.


Video

00:07 The world calls for Israel to stop the settlements.

1:03 Palestinians are trying to buy houses in settlements.

1:59 Palestinians trying to claim back what they say is their land.

2:31 Israel won't allow Palestinians to have building permits. Apartheid.

2:36 "I have to live in Jerusalem or the Israelis will take away my ID card. Apartheid.

2:40 Hundreds of Palestinians are buying or are already living in Israeli settlements. Many feel they have NO OTHER CHOICE due to Israel's policies designed they say to DISCRIMINATE and DIMINISH Palestinian presence in Jerusalem. Apartheid.

2:55 One of the ways that Israel tries to entice young Jews to live in settlements is by making it affordable while a few minutes down the road Palestinians are shut out from building homes by being denied permits: driving up the prices and forcing Palestinians out. Apartheid.

3:38 Many Palestinians don't have any housing solutions and Israel is pushing them out of the municipal borders of Jerusalem: cutting them off from their life inside Jerusalem. Apartheid.

4:00 Israeli owners are reluctant to sell to ARABS; many of whom refuse to buy STOLEN LAND they see as belonging to fellow Palestinians.

5:00 "The fact is that Israelis do not want to live with Palestinians. If Palestinians move into these settlements then eventually the Israelis will move out: leaving them to the Palestinians.

5: 26 "As Israel continues to build on STOLEN LAND some Palestinians are trying to change the balance: one house at a time.

Discussion

6:22 Had Ishaq: Since 1967 Israel has built more than 50,000 apartments for Jewish settlers while in East Jerusalem while granting Palestinians less than 1,000 units. Palestinians need at least 1,500 apartments every year. So it is this POLICY OF DISCRIMINATION which the Israeli governments have been practicing against Palestinians. It is what is driving the Palestinians accommodations somewhere else.

ICJ International Court of Justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICJ) and the whole international community sees East Jerusalem as an occupied territory. Israel has no right to build settlements. Israel is occupying Palestinian land against international will and international law. The Palestinians are claiming the rights to THEIR LAND.

8:40 Question by moderator: Is this perhaps a practical move that housing is getting expensive and that Palestinians don't have any other option?

8:55 Samuel Berkovich: Won't answer question to begin with. Starts in with protest over the language of "settlement." Asks if the moderator is not happy with the existence of West Jerusalem. Goes into history lesson of who attacked them instead. Trying hard to make a case that "we were attacked to we get the spoils of war." Describing taking the territory as self defense. Doesn't answer question.


10:40 Moderator making it clear that he wasn't calling then settlements. The UN and EU call them settlements. "A word that comes from the international community.


12:00 Danny Seidemann: "In the eyes of most Israelis these neighborhoods are neighborhoods and not settlements. In the eyes of the Palestinians and much of the international community these indeed are seen as settlements.

12:30 190,000 Israelis living on settlements that was once PALESTINIAN LAND, and in all likelihood will become a part of Israel. Israel will need to pay for that in the framework of a 1-1 ratio.

12:50 The Palestinians living in Israeli settlements are of curiosity value. There are not significant number nor do the have broad reaching political ramifications. This does disclose a deep humanitarian problem. By constructing a security wall Ariel Sharon cut off hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their environs in the West Bank and tens of thousands of Palestinians who were threatened to be cut off from Jerusalem came back to the city and they don't have where to live.

13:30 Israelis and Palestinians don't want to live in the same neighborhoods, but out of desperation Palestinians are being compelled to move into these neighborhoods because they have nowhere else to live. So this discloses a stark humanitarian reality.

Clip of Binyamin Netanyahu: "Jerusalem is ours. It will always be ours, and will never be divided."

15:00 Moderator question: How can Netanyahu say that when President Barack Obama has said "Stop the Settlements."

15:10 Samuel Berkovich: Netanyahu didn't mean it. It was just politics.

17:20 Moderator runs quote from Frédéric Desagneaux, The head of the French Consulate in Jerusalem: "We reiterate the need for a freeze on colonization activities, including those linked to natural population growth."

18:00 Had Ishaq: What Prime Minister Netanyahu says is irrelevant to me.

20:17 Danny Seidemann: The mantra of an undivided Jerusalem is dead. Brings up Two-state solution. Settlement expansion in Jerusalem jeopardizes the two-state solution. A settlement freeze is of cardinal interest to the Israelis.

End.

But thank you Shira for pointing out in the video (oops) the painful life of the Palestinians, or Arabs as they are derisively called, inside Israel and the few options they have for housing since they are pushed out of being able to build their own in the first place.

Thank you for not mentioning the Palestinian olive groves that are torn down by Israeli settlers, how the IDF won't defend these assaults on Palestinian property or how hard it is for Palestinians to even harvest the olives from the few remaining trees before the fruit is taken by the settlers.

Thank you for posting your clusterfu*k attempt at defending the further plight of the Palestinians.

Thank you for proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that you truly are a first rate second rate human.

[King_David]

108. Everyone's an "Amateur " to you..

And "Apartheid " is everywhere .. And to you everyone else has "epic fails"

Interesting ..

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

109. No. Not true, King D. Not even close.

The majority of DUers seem to be fairly affable, but there are those that seemingly pretend that Israeli colonialism/expansionism does not exist and that they are always the victims in every argument.

I understand that you may feel upset by this, but when you grow up you may see things from a different perspective.

[King_David]

110. "Amateur , Apartheid Apartheid epic fails

And multiple emoticons I got York number eyc etc etc "

But I must "grow up" ?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

112. Yes, you must grow up. Exactly! I'm glad you have caught on.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

70. 24%. King D likes to play up the 76% and ignore the rest.

Just saying.

[King_David]

76. Because you have my number?

My home phone? Cell? Beeper?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

81. Why do you ignore 24% of the Israeli population that are non Jewish?

[King_David]

82. Your bizzare questions are the same as asking you :'When did you stop beating your kids?' ?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

93. I can see how you are indifferent to the plight of the Palestinians since you can't even acknowledge

the 24% of Israel that is not Jewish.

Your bizarre dismissal of 1/4 of Israel is a serious tell.


You are quite the comedienne.

[Ken Burch]

47. The Israelis(this has nothing to do with "Jews" and you know it)have an obligation

to aim solely for the rocket launchers.

They didn't do that during OCL.

[King_David]

49. Nonsense ,The Jewish State aka Israel,

Has an obligation to stop the rockets by all means necessary.

If it can not be done by aiming solely for the rocket launchers, they must stop it with whatever force is necessary....That is their

obligation and duty. (they have no choice)

[azurnoir]

65. well I hate to dash your hopes for a stern defense of Israel but

Netanyahu hints Israel likely to show restraint after recent Gaza flare-up

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told mayors of southern Israeli cities under rocket attack on Tuesday that it was his reponsibility to choose the right time to "exact the heaviest price" for the continual rocket fire from Gaza.

Following a meeting on Tuesday morning of the prime minister's nine senior ministers on the recent escalation with Gaza, it seems that Israel will show restraint after the latest round of rocket fire, and will try at this point to contain events in the south. Since the flare-up with Gaza began, Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak have promised a sharp Israeli response to the rocket fire, although this, if it arrives, will take place only in the next round of escalation.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-hints-israel-likely-to-show-restraint-after-recent-gaza-flare-up.premium-1.477497

[shira]

61. Not again with malicious charges of targeting civilians....

You have an obligation to condemn Hamas for firing rockets, using its people as shields, & children as militants.

[azurnoir]

64. Oh heavens forfend we all just know the onlyest ones that target civilians are Palestinians

you the ones that you call Hamas at least when they are killed by IDF like the 12 year old who was killed late last week he was obviously being used as a target by Hamas, because they know IAF has really good aim............

[Ken Burch]

68. Hamas shouldn't fire rockets.

I've said that before and I'll say that again. But Hamas, and ONLY Hamas, is responsible for that. You can't justify endangering everybody in Gaza for that. Most Gazans live where they live either because they've always lived there or because, at the moment, they can't live anywhere else.

[Ken Burch]

56. If Bibi wants to do it, the world can't stop him. He should leave it at that.

Bibi has no right to demand world support for an attack on Gaza, especially since it's almost certain to be just as excessive and useless as OCL was.

And the world doesn't OWE Bibi support for this. The collective responsibility for the antisemitic past has no connection to this situation. That responsibility is properly shouldered by fighting against antisemitism and all OTHER forms of prejudice...not by giving the Israeli government automatic support for whatever it wants to do to Arabs and Muslims. The fight against antisemitism has nothing to do with the question of what people think about the actions of the Israeli government.

[King_David]

63. What is it he wants to do against Arabs and Muslims?

To defend themselves ? To stop the rockets maybe ?

What's the hidden agenda your implying in your post? He wants to attack 1.2Billion "Arabs and Muslims&quot as you called them ) because 12 Million Jews "hate " them ???

[Ken Burch]

66. What Bibi feels doesn't extend to 12 million other people

Bibi's agenda is still to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state by any means necessary...or to make sure, if one is created, that it is too weak and helpless to survive.

I wasn't speaking about anybody other than Bibi and his party of hate(now joined with Lieberman's party of hate, and fortunately losing support in the polls as we speak).

Israelis as a group, and Jews as a group, are better than Bibi and his mob.

And you dodged the real question...why does Bibi CARE what the world thinks about his war plans? Why is he acting as if everybody owes him support on this?

[morningfog]

100. Well said.

[PDJane]

79. One more time. Israel does not want peace.

If they have peace, they lose all the benefits of war in which most of the damage is done to the other side. Israel gets to break the law with impunity, kill and maim Palestinian civilians (and they are all civilians, because Palestine doesn't have the resources for a police or military force), and receive money and arms from Germany and the US.

Israel has never wanted peace, which is not to say that Israelis don't want peace. The administration sees the value of a concerted war, both of arms and propaganda, in which Israel is the current winner.

[shira]

87. So Israel's peace offers in 2000 and 2008 were really declarations of war?

They prove somehow to you that Israel doesn't want peace, 2 states, end of occupation/settlements, etc.?

Really?

[PDJane]

88. Yeah, really.

There were so many conditions attached to those 'peace attempts' that Israel knew they wouldn't....indeed, couldn't....be accepted.

[shira]

89. LOL.

You know, the last proposal by Olmert in 2008 was lauded as a great effort by folks representing the Geneva Initiative.

The Geneva Initiative is supported by people like Jimmy Carter and Noam Chomsky.

Thought you'd want to know.

[PDJane]

90. I do know. Don't assume the audience is ignorant just because they disagree.

However, they were still not given back control of their sovereignity, the right of return, full citizenship, control of the network of roads...nor were they given any kind of reparations for the settlements and the damage that Israel has done.

That's no laughing matter, and it doomed those talks to failure.

In other words, the offers were the best they've gotten, but were never meant to be taken seriously.

Israel does not want peace.

[shira]

96. So people backing the Geneva Initiative don't want peace either.

It doesn't offer right of return.

So Chomsky and Carter are just as bad, right?

[azurnoir]

116. um shira do we really have to go over this again? let's look at the facts behind Olmerts offer

including the Israeli government saying Olmert offered more than Israel was willing to
the plan could not be implemented as long as Hamas was in power
and the current Israeli PM said he would not honor the agreement in any event

now you can attempt to brush aside as you have in the past but the facts are the facts

Shaul Arieli of the Council for Peace and Security, which developed a map with a final border as part of the Geneva Initiative, said Israel's capacity to swap territory with a future Palestinian state is more limited than what Olmert reportedly proposed.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/haaretz-exclusive-olmert-s-plan-for-peace-with-the-palestinians-1.1970

Nabil Abu Rdainah, Abbas's spokesman, told the official Palestinian news agency WAFA that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's plan showed a "lack of seriousness."

Under the proposal, Israel would return to the Palestinians 93 percent of the West Bank, plus all of the Gaza Strip, when the Palestinian Authority regains control over the Gaza Strip, which the militant group Hamas seized from forces loyal to Abbas in June 2006.

Olmert presented Abbas with the proposal as part of an agreement in principle on borders, refugees and security arrangements between Israel and a future Palestinian state

http://www.haaretz.com/news/pa-rejects-olmert-s-offer-to-withdraw-from-93-of-west-bank-1.251578

Netanyahu: I won't carry out an Olmert-Abbas peace deal if elected

Opposition leader favored by polls to sweep elections if held today rejects proposal to divide Jerusalem, says would toss out agreement between current PM, Palestinians

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3533242,00.html

Livni tells France's Kouchner: I oppose Olmert's peace plan

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told her French counterpart Bernard Kouchner that she opposes the agreement in principle that outgoing prime minister Ehud Olmert has offered Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

"I do not believe in far-reaching proposals and an attempt to expedite matters, especially in light of the political situation," Livni, the prime minister-designate, told Kouchner on Sunday.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/livni-tells-france-s-kouchner-i-oppose-olmert-s-peace-plan-1.285402

Olmert resigned 8 days after presenting Abbas with this plan, there is little way this plan would have been finalized in 8 days, much less implemented.

[azurnoir]

117. see #116 n/t