Make your own Hydrogen gas generator using a mason jar, steel wool pot scrubbers and a sock

[nationalize the fed]

*Don't do this inside- Hydrogen gas is explosive*

Total cost- less than $5
(Not endorsing the car hook up- yet--The point of this post is that Hydrogen can be created for next to nothing)

Here's a more sophisticated one for about $20

A monster 354 plate Hydrogen generator that costs more than $20 but less than a Nuclear Reactor

Here's a weed eater running off Hydrogen from a balloon
(No Hindenberg jokes please)

[defacto7]

1. An "I'm gonna do it" Kick!

and R!

[Warpy]

2. An "I love kitchen kludges" kick

[rgbecker]

3. I'm confused!

I thought the idea was to make electricity from Hydrogen not Hydrogen using electricity.

Help me out here.

[eppur_se_muova]

5. These people are very unclear on ideas, period. See post 4.

They think they're getting something for nothing, when in fact they're just inept at counting costs.

[nationalize the fed]

8. both

from the OP:

The point of this post is that Hydrogen can be created for next to nothing

If you use renewable energy to produce the hydrogen you've got gas for free after the equipment is paid for

Electrolysis to split the hydrogen from water- end result - gas

and a fuel cell (kind of reverse electrolysis) to produce electricity from hydrogen

[eppur_se_muova]

4. Well, you're indirectly "burning" steel as fuel, and it takes coal to produce steel ...

you're getting less energy out of the hydrogen than you would have gotten from the coal. This is basically a roundabout way of burning coal less efficiently. Economically, this makes no sense at all.

One last time, folks -- (1) It takes energy to produce metals from the metal compounds in their ores (except for rare cases like gold and silver which occur as the metal); (2) Converting the metal back to a metal compound releases energy (in this case stored as H₂); (3) Metals thus serve as a means of storing energy; (4) Neither step 1 nor step 2 is particularly energy-efficient, so the two-step process loses a lot of energy; (5) The price of metals in the market is strongly dependent on the amount of metals recycled as the metal; thus using metals as fuels or battery components will drive up the price of the metal, rendering the practice uneconomical, and raising the cost of the metal for other uses as well.

This is a cute trick, not a practical solution to anything.

[NickB79]

6. Bingo. How many miles per scrub pad would you get with this set-up?

You'd need to figure out a way to capture and compress the resulting hydrogen gas (it's NOT going to be feasible to run anything on hydrogen unless it's compressed, or you have a MASSIVE storage tank).

You'd also have to figure out how many scrub pads you'll use up generating the gas in the first place. My gut feeling is that it would cost you more, on a per-mile basis, to keep feeding a vehicle scrub pads than it would to plug in an electric car.

[eppur_se_muova]

7. MANY times more. nt

[nationalize the fed]

9. mpsp (miles per scrub pad) is not the point

the point of the op was to show that anyone can perform electrolysis for a few bucks. If the electrolysis is performed using renewable energy how much has it cost?

And -I've not tried it, yet- many people report that using supplemental hydrogen increases their mileage. Before people scoff at such a claim, they might want to either try it or do a little more research.

The weed eater in the OP proves that hydrogen can run engines. And that guy claims he produced that gas without electricity.

The internet is filled with armchair/keyboard "experts" that make all kinds of claims without either grasping the concept or doing any independent research for themselves.

[caraher]

10. And some people on the Internet can correctly sort through claims without building stuff

Consider your weed eater guy... Anyone using aluminum in a process of any kind and claims not to be using electricity has no idea where aluminum comes from! It's about as close to embodied pure electricity as any material I can think of! All he's doing is getting back some of the energy used in extracting aluminum metal from bauxite.

For an analysis of this "electricity-free" option there's a report from the Department of Energy's hydrogen program that lays out why this is pretty much a non-starter as a means to fuel vehicles:

The purpose of this White Paper is to describe and evaluate the potential of aluminum-water reactions for the production of hydrogen for on-board hydrogen-powered vehicle applications. Although the concept of reacting aluminum metal with water to produce hydrogen is not new, there have been a number of recent claims that such aluminum-water reactions might be employed to power fuel cell devices for portable applications such as emergency generators and laptop computers, and might even be considered for possible use as the hydrogen source for fuel cell-powered vehicles....

... the cost of producing hydrogen by this approach is dictated by the cost of aluminum metal. The November 2007 commodity price for aluminum is $2.36 per kg. At this price, hydrogen from an aluminum-water hydrogen generation approach would cost approximately $21 per kg H2. Even assuming high volume production, the DOE target range for hydrogen cost of $2-3 per kg H2 would not be met.

I thought this part toward the end was particularly interesting, as it is not merely about the terrible economics:

Another factor that should be considered is the amount of aluminum that would be required to produce hydrogen for large numbers of hydrogen-fueled vehicles. It is estimated that the fueling of 300 million vehicles would require 64 million metric tons of hydrogen per year. Since it requires 9 tons of aluminum to produce 1 ton of hydrogen through the aluminum-water reaction, this means that the fueling of 300 million vehicles would require 575 million metric tons of aluminum per year. To put this number in perspective, the world-wide production of aluminum in the year 2006 was 24 million metric tons (www.world-aluminium.org). Thus, the hydrogen fueling of very large numbers of vehicles via the aluminum-water reaction would require an expansion of world-wide aluminum production by approximately a factor of 25. In addition to the capital cost of new aluminum smelting facilities, the electricity consumption for aluminum production would have to increase by a similar factor.

This is a prodigious amount of electricity:

Aluminum refining from aluminum-bearing bauxite ore uses the Bayer process chemistry which forms a hydrate which is essentially the same as the reaction product in the proposed aluminum- water reactions described above. The hydrate is then calcined to remove the water to form alumina. The alumina is electrolytically reduced into metallic aluminum at about 900 C using the Hall-Heroult Process, producing a metal with 99.7% purity (see Figure 10). The smelting process requires continuous operation to be efficient. For 2005 (the latest figures reported by the Institute), the North American average energy used to reduce the oxide to the metal (smelting) is 15.552 kWh per kg of Al. This number does not include the energy used in mining and transporting the ore, the energy for processing the ore to the oxide, or the energy used in casting or carbon plants.

This means 875 million tonnes * 1000 kg/tonne * 15 kWh/kg = 8.6 trillion kWh of electricity annually devoted to aluminum production, in order to generate hydrogen to fuel 300 million cars. Maybe at this point electric cars start to look like a better option?

eppur_se_muova is no armchair/keyboard "expert" but someone who knows science, and clearly grasps the concepts in play here as well as anyone.

[Nihil]

11. Excellent post and one that should be referenced each time these dumbass schemes resurface.

> Anyone using aluminum in a process of any kind and claims not to be using electricity
> has no idea where aluminum comes from! It's about as close to embodied pure electricity
> as any material I can think of! All he's doing is getting back some of the energy used
> in extracting aluminum metal from bauxite.

[nationalize the fed]

13. I'm not suggesting making hydrogen from aluminum foil

the purpose of including that video was to show that hydrogen can power engines.

How much does hydrogen gas cost if created with solar panels?

Honda Introduces Solar Hydrogen Station on Saitama Prefectural Office Grounds

...This is the first installation in Japan of a total system to produce, store and dispense hydrogen with ZERO CO2 emissions. A high pressure water electrolysis system, uniquely developed by Honda, produces hydrogen. With no mechanical compressor, the system is nearly silent and highly energy efficient. Using Solar and grid power, the system is capable of producing 1.5kg of hydrogen within 24 hours which enables an FCX Clarity to run approximately 150km or 90 miles. Honda aims to further develop the system to offer clean energy sources for the home in the future...
http://world.honda.com/news/2012/4120327Solar-Hydrogen-Station/index.html

(that is not the Saitama Prefectural installation)

eppur_se_muova is no armchair/keyboard "expert" but someone who knows science, and clearly grasps the concepts in play here as well as anyone.

Many seem unable to grasp the concept of renewable energy producing hydrogen for free after the equipment is paid for.

Solar power could create the hydrogen to power a home hydrogen station, like the experimental Honda project-

Honda has long been conducting research into hydrogen production and supply systems for a hydrogen-based society of the future. At the solar-powered water electrolyzing hydrogen station that has been operating on an experimental basis since 2001 at Honda R&D Americas in Torrance, California, employment of Honda’s water electrolyzing module, which boasts world-leading efficiency, as well as next-generation solar cell panels made by Honda Engineering, has further improved hydrogen production efficiency and greatly reduced CO2 emissions during system manufacturing...



http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/FCX/station/

[kristopher]

14. Hydrogen is an inefficient storage medium....

...which is why none of your visuals explore that important area of consideration.

Poor system efficiency will limit the range of applications because it increases the amount of input energy required compared to alternatives by a very large amount. IOW if you are going to use solar you are liable to need a lot more panels to do the job than with batteries.

For most applications H doesn't offer compensating advantages, but there are some where it will be the best bet.

[nationalize the fed]

15. Shouldn't you notify Honda's engineers

and Toyota's and Hyundai's before they waste any more time on a folly?

Fuel cell cars from Toyota, Honda, Hyundai set to debut at auto shows
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/nov/17/autos/la-fi-hy-fuel-cell-cars-20131117

Maybe James May from Top Gear would be interested

http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/honda-clarity

IOW if you are going to use solar you are liable to need a lot more panels to do the job than with batteries.

And how are these batteries powered?

[kristopher]

17. Are you denying the poor system efficiency?

OK....

Why a hydrogen economy doesn't make sense



http://phys.org/news85074285.html

See also:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1127&pid=68545

[trustworthy]

22. the sceme

Kristopher: "Fuel cell" that turns hydrogen into electricity is a scam, you have been listening to the people speaking for the petroleum industry. Hydrogen gas is a fuel it comes from electricity you burn the hydrogen. Forget the steps in blue claiming that Hydrogen is dangerous. Hydrogen is a great fuel itself. Hydrogen is safer than gasoline. If you study the Hindenburg video you can tell the blimp did not explode. I leave that to you but remember burning and exploding are quite different.

[Rhiannon12866]

23. Welcome to DU, trustworthy!

We're glad to have you with us! And thanks for contributing your knowledge to the Environment & Energy Forum! If you're wondering why you haven't received any replies yet, it's because this thread is from 2014. But E&E is one of our most active groups here on DU, so you may want to check out the more recent discussions...

Environment & Energy (Group)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1127

[oldhippie]

16. So what is your answer?

How much does hydrogen gas cost if created with solar panels?

Well, how much? How many $ per kilogram or cubic foot? I don't see ANY prices in your graphics. You seem to think it is a good idea, so how much is it so we can compare with other sources?

How much would it cost today to build one of those nifty Honda Hydrogen Stations to produce enough hydrogen to power my fuel cell car for a daily 150 mile commute? How many KW of solar panels? I want to do it, how much will it cost?

Oh, BTW, we already know that hydrogen can power engines.

[trustworthy]

20. no need to compress hydrogen

The very simple method of hydrogen gas in vehicles is a true hybrid. The car alternator makes hydrogen continuously from water. You need fuel to start the car and a little to supplement the car when going or idling. It is the same as an electric car where the battery and the gasoline share the duty of powering the car. Of course, there are several powerful pumps in your car. One more for hydrogen could be added with a propane tank and gasoline would be used very little. Gas milage improves alot.

[trustworthy]

19. h2 gas

I am an older scientist:
No. the steel does not burn it lasts years. The energy comes from electricity, direct current. Electric energy forces the water atoms to divide into hydrogen and oxygen (remember H2O) The oxygen and hydrogen will join again and the energy will be released, just like Oxygen and Gasoline combine O2 + O2 +CH3* = CO2* + H2O +O-. All require ignition to set it off, like any fire. No metal is involved: it is only a conductor. Its the water that is consumed and must be refilled like gasoline. This little miracle might make us respect water more...it is not free, any more than steel or gasoline. It comes to us by solar power. Water is life itself.

Making electricity from Hydrogen gas is complex chemistry requiring a catalyst. It is not efficient and it's political, ie invented by the oil industry to combat hydrogen. The logic of using hydrogen and oxygen in the car is: the alternator of the car produces lots of unused electricity, which can be connected to the conductors in water to create the flammable gas combination. No carburetor or fuel injector is needed since the gas amounts are already matched to go back together. The motor runs better, spark is not retarded with hydrogen/oxygen gas, so no electronics.

Why this is a new concept I dont know. but it is getting popular and it should. it would have helped the auto industry from day one. However, consider that the petroleum industry would have lost billion$$$... of dollars if the cars had harnessed the alternator, and then you can see a motive(no, they never would, you say). Everyone remembers the Hindenburg and guess why. The oil industry pushed the newsreel: it was run more than any film clip in history. The public wanted hydrogen in the 1920s because so many gasoline trucks blew up in neighborhoods. The oil industry made their case against hydrogen by reeling the Hindenburg incident. You can see by studying the film,however, that the Hindenburg DID NOT explode. I leave that to you. Hydrogen is less dangerous than gasoline.

[jpak]

12. Hey! Y'all watch this....

[hunter]

18. Hydrogen exploded the Fukushima containment buildings.

And before you do any experiments, watch this:

[trustworthy]

21. fuel is not explosive

If gasoline vapor or hydrogen gas are mixed with oxygen and then ignited, explosion will result. But without oxygen neither will ignite. What is the chemical difference then between an explosive and a fuel? The answer is literally on the tip of your tongue*.
Be careful with fuel, oxygen is all around you. And balloons, eg. the Hindenburg, are full of static electricity (the ignition) which will spark to any conductor to ground.
Remember junior high school textbook: fire needs fuel oxygen and ignition that's it.

*ANSWER: NEGYXO