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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Fri Jan 3, 2014, 09:07 PM Jan 2014

Credit Suisse Projects ~85% Of US Energy Demand Growth Coming From Renewables Through 2025

Article reproduced in full under Creative Commons license
Originally published by CleanTechnica
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/01/01/credit-suisse-projects-85-us-energy-growth-coming-renewables-2025/

Credit Suisse Projects ~85% Of US Energy Demand Growth Coming From Renewables Through 2025
Zachary Shahan

Credit Suisse on December 20 released a report with some quite bullish projections regarding renewable energy growth and generation in the United States, which someone in the solar industry kindly passed on to me. Here’s the short summary:

Our take: We see an opportunity for renewable energy to take an increasing share of total US power generation, coming in response to state Renewable Portfolio Standards (RPS) and propelled by more competitive costs against conventional generation. We can see the growth in renewables being transformative against conventional expectations with renewables meeting the vast majority of future power demand growth, weighing on market clearing power prices in competitive power markets, appreciably slowing the rate of demand growth for natural gas from the power sector, and requiring significant investment in new renewables.


What percentage of future growth does Credit Suisse say might come from renewables? About 85%.

Renewables will meet most of US demand growth. We estimate that ~85% of future demand growth for power through 2025 (including the impact of coal plant retirements) could be met by renewable generation with compliance to the existing 30 mandatory and 8 voluntary RPS programs. From this we would see over 100 GW of new renewable capacity additions with wind and solar market share more than doubling from 2012 to 2025.


?zoom=2&resize=570%2C704
Solar PV’s rapid cost drop. Credit: Bloomberg New Energy Finance

Other key points are that falling wind and solar costs make them competitive with natural gas, even ignoring externalities. As a result, Credit Suisse has cut its natural gas projections considerably. “We estimate renewables slowing the rate of natural gas demand growth from power generation to <0.5 bcf/d through 2020 versus our prior estimate of 1.0-1.2 bcf/d even when taking into account planned coal plant shutdowns and assumed nuclear plant retirements.”

I think this report and the revisions implicitly highlight something very interesting that is going on in the energy industry. Renewable energy costs are primarily based on the cost of the technologies themselves, while fossil fuel costs are largely based on the fuel sources. As renewable energy grows, the technology costs come down. In the case of fossil fuels, increasing demand brings the price of these finite fuels up. Forecasts should take this into account, but they routinely seem to underestimate renewable technology cost drops, and thus also underestimate renewable energy growth. Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, and others that are a bit better at these projections are quickly shifting their forecasts to catch up with the renewable energy revolution we’ve been seeing. This new report from Credit Suisse analysts is certainly one of the most positive I’ve seen. The title of the first section says it all: “Renewables Are Economic and Disruptive to Conventional Markets.”

Credit Suisse analysts see Renewable Energy Standards (RES) as driving much of the coming growth, but they aren’t shy about saying (repeatedly) that renewables are also now cost competitive, and that technology improvements just keep advancing their prospects.

“We think old-line arguments against renewables – too expensive, too intermittent, too remote – will continue to fade, allowing a resource base that is underappreciated in the market but is positioned to have a broad impact on power and energy markets.”

The report projects that wind power, which is exceptionally cheap, will account for about 80% of the renewable energy growth, while solar will account for the other 20% or so. It sees a doubling of installed US wind power between 2012 and 2020, while it sees solar increasing 11 times over — starting from a much smaller installed capacity, of course. Together, solar and wind’s combined market share is projected to grow from ~4% to ~9%. By 2025, Credit Suisse projects that renewables will account for ~12% of US electricity generation.

Key drivers of the increasing competitiveness from wind and solar are a bit different in each of the industries. Wind farms have become a lot more effective at capturing energy from the wind and turning it into electricity. “Wind utilization rates have increased by 15-20 percentage points, with new machines in the same wind resource yielding 50-55% utilization rates from 30-35% in 2007 due to improvements in turbine design, taller towers / bigger blades, and better wind modeling. Higher utilization has led to dramatic drops in levelized costs with many new projects clearing at ~$30/MWh (Exhibit 5-Exhibit 6), in effect ‘creating’ natural gas under 20 year PPAs at less than $3/MMBtu.”


In the case of solar, it’s a story that CleanTechnica readers should be very familiar with — the price of solar technology has fallen off a cliff. “Solar capital costs have continued to bend the cost curve with utility scale PV today at ~$2000 per KW of capacity from $3250 in 2010, lowering levelized costs for utility scale solar to $65-80/MWh from well over $100/MWh and bringing solar to price parity with newbuild natural gas peakers.” Efficiency improvements have also helped solar on this front.

Yes, solar costs came down due to massive oversupply of polysilicon, solar cells, and solar panels. However, as demand has come to match supply again, costs have remained down. In fact, most solar market research firms project that the costs will keep climbing down in the coming few to several years. Furthermore, many big efforts to bring down the soft costs of solar are also now in motion, as these are the costs that make US solar much more expensive than German solar and are now taking up a huge chunk of the solar price pie.

As we’ve written and read numerous times in the past year, all of this also means some hurt for utilities and fossil fuel generators. Renewables are expected to result in lower power prices than were previously projected, while fossil fuel plants will not be able to sell as much of their (more expensive) electricity to the grid, cutting into their profits.

Here’s a snippet regarding the power prices: “Using our bottom-up power market models, the risks we see to power markets are rooted in a slower market recovery as more (and bottom of the stack) generation is added leading to a fundamental step down in power prices $1-2/MWh or ~5% relative to a scenario without significant renewables growth, as the overall supply curve is ‘pushed to the right’ with lower cost renewables added.”

And here’s one regarding the threat to fossil fuel generators: “while generation output will be lower, the operating costs are broadly fixed meaning that coal and natural gas plants will produce less revenues without a change in cost structure, leading to some minor degradation in EPS.”

The entire report is very interesting, with many details that are surely useful to investors and industry insiders. But the overall trend is clear as a sunny day: the future is renewables.



Read more at http://cleantechnica.com/2014/01/01/credit-suisse-projects-85-us-energy-growth-coming-renewables-2025/#xluxFE904PlWkKEO.99

Comments are, as usual, worth the read.
41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Credit Suisse Projects ~85% Of US Energy Demand Growth Coming From Renewables Through 2025 (Original Post) kristopher Jan 2014 OP
Some perspective on US deployed wind kristopher Jan 2014 #1
Better, but not enough to change the outcome, ... CRH Jan 2014 #2
What do you think the consequences will be to the traditional utility business model? kristopher Jan 2014 #3
Wrong, you can't use your canned response to me, ... CRH Jan 2014 #4
the scale of the problem is unquestionably manageable kristopher Jan 2014 #5
Nihilism, what next kristopher, ... CRH Jan 2014 #6
And not only for the present population NickB79 Jan 2014 #9
You mean your "we might as well not try" message isn't nihilistic? kristopher Jan 2014 #10
You want figures, I'll show you mine, then you show yours, ... CRH Jan 2014 #14
Is that supposed to address the content of the thread above? kristopher Jan 2014 #15
Yeah, the thread above asks how can you get the green energy needed, ... CRH Jan 2014 #17
No, it didn't. kristopher Jan 2014 #19
Oh and by the way, where did this bit come from, ... CRH Jan 2014 #18
From You. kristopher Jan 2014 #20
just like post 3, innuendo without support, you are pathological n/t CRH Jan 2014 #26
Ok, let's get it on the record. kristopher Jan 2014 #27
I'm not familiar with what you are referring to, ... CRH Jan 2014 #30
It's a simple question kristopher Jan 2014 #31
I want to see the post you said I made, that I don't remember, ... CRH Jan 2014 #32
It's a simple question and doesn't require a link. kristopher Jan 2014 #33
Still waiting for that answer... kristopher Jan 2014 #34
The simple truth is this whole sub thread is based on your lie, ... CRH Jan 2014 #35
Here's the post FBaggins Jan 2014 #36
Thank you FBaggins for posting the thread in question, ... CRH Jan 2014 #38
"The simple truth is this whole sub thread is based on your lie" kristopher Jan 2014 #39
Why didn't you just post the thread as asked several times, ... CRH Jan 2014 #40
FFS kristopher Jan 2014 #41
CRH - you accused me of name calling when I pointed out that you preach nihilism kristopher Jan 2014 #37
Propaganda 101 at play.. PamW Jan 2014 #21
It is NOT manageable in the time we have left NickB79 Jan 2014 #7
Sure Nick. kristopher Jan 2014 #11
ASSERTION ONLY - NO PROOF!!! PamW Jan 2014 #22
And "Deadly Force is Authorized!!!" kristopher Jan 2014 #23
Messenger shooting PamW Jan 2014 #24
You are waaaaay beyond "just telling" nt kristopher Jan 2014 #25
We're currently at 400 ppm CO2 NickB79 Jan 2014 #28
So Hansen's recent promotion of nuclear power was...? kristopher Jan 2014 #29
Are you calling me out, kris? nt GliderGuider Jan 2014 #8
Are you calling me out GG? kristopher Jan 2014 #12
No kristopher, I'm not. nt GliderGuider Jan 2014 #16
All New Generation in Australia Will Be Renewables Through 2020 (closes 3.7GW coal) kristopher Jan 2014 #13

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
1. Some perspective on US deployed wind
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 06:23 PM
Jan 2014

Taking into account the capacity factor, actual production of the 60GW of US wind equals the following percentages of the electrical production of these countries:
200% of Switzerland
64% of Turkey
62% of Australia
54% of Mexico
26% of France
25% of Brazil

CRH

(1,553 posts)
2. Better, but not enough to change the outcome, ...
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 09:08 PM
Jan 2014

85% of the 'growth demand' of power generation does not address the present demand base we are starting from. All energy used in the US including transportation was over 5 gigatons in 2012 with the world putting 31 gigatons into the atmosphere. Just curbing the growth of demand doesn't change a thing. The mid-late 2020's is when the latest estimates say the global economy needs to be carbon free, to maintain the not very safe 2*C target for 2100. The recent research indicating errors in the climate sensitivity models move those estimates even further forward.

This report is good news for renewable energy balance sheets, but falls well short of a needed solution.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
3. What do you think the consequences will be to the traditional utility business model?
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 09:43 PM
Jan 2014

Last edited Fri Jan 10, 2014, 10:34 PM - Edit history (1)

You've long been a nuclear booster, but try to rise above that and pay attention to what is actually going on instead of being so focused on panning the solutions that are being implemented just because they are renewable.

When you link the economic impact that this kind of growth in renewables will have on the established centralized generation model** with the rollout of EPA carbon limits on fossil generation that is occurring right now, you have a recipe for a rapid transition in the energy mix.

**It guts their cash flow. 329 coal plants have already been identified as being ready to shut down because of steadily worsening economics. Fairly soon we are going to have to rethink the utilities business model because a fatal hit on inflexible centralized plants is likely to take place before the substitutes are in place. What that means in real terms is that we'll have to pay more per unit of coal/nuclear generated electricity because they will be steadily reducing the amount they sell into the market. This, of course, makes them an increasing burden which spurs more investment in alternatives.

ETA: 1/10/2014
EPA Publishes First Rule Limiting Carbon Pollution From New Power Plants
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014693800

CRH

(1,553 posts)
4. Wrong, you can't use your canned response to me, ...
Sat Jan 11, 2014, 10:17 AM
Jan 2014

I have never been a nuclear booster or advocate in any form. I've always been just the opposite, anti nuclear, believing in pursuing a less energy intensive culture and lifestyle, and controlling population.

So, I don't need to rise above anything, I have long been a supporter of renewables. The problem is the scale of the energy needed to support the status quo world economy, that has failed to find a sustainable path for a unsustainable population that has more than doubled in the last sixty years.

The problem is in the numbers, personal attacks against me won't change those numbers or renewable capabilities, to support a lifestyle for seven billion plus people.

As far as business models, the present energy structure can not survive renewables, or survive the privatization that swept the globe in the eighties. Not only does the energy infrastructure need to become public friendly, the expectations of energy demand needs to become more realistic if there is to be any hope of limping into a less energy intensive lifestyle. There are no models that support the expectations of status quo energy demand using renewables or any combination of all known sources of energy generation. The numbers just don't support any workable model of carbon free energy, that isn't greatly reduced in scale.

The only problem I have with the renewables, is boosters pretending the present population can be supplied the same energy intensive lifestyle with no concessions to reality, that energy demand and expectations need to be reduced within the capabilities of the present and evolving technology.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
5. the scale of the problem is unquestionably manageable
Sat Jan 11, 2014, 04:12 PM
Jan 2014

Your nihilism and supporting arguments are so eerily similar to GG's I must have been confused.
"There are no models that support the expectations of status quo energy demand using renewables or any combination of all known sources of energy generation. The numbers just don't support any workable model of carbon free energy, that isn't greatly reduced in scale."

"status quo energy demand" is a weasel term. There is no proposal for renewable energy that doesn't view energy efficiency as an integral part of the solution. And contrary to your unsupported assertion, the scale of the problem is unquestionably manageable. We are, in FACT, much further along in mustering a global solution to carbon than was thought possible even 10 years ago. And that is in spite of a flood of propaganda from the entrenched energy establishment telling us that it can't or it shouldn't be done. They cloak their desperate attempts to derail progress in killing carbon behind a variety of facades but the ultimate message to those effecting change is exactly the same one you are peddling - "STOP!"

CRH

(1,553 posts)
6. Nihilism, what next kristopher, ...
Sun Jan 12, 2014, 07:40 PM
Jan 2014

Anyone disagrees you don't debate, you attack. You attack with false accusation, then divert without presenting anything factual.

The scale of the problem is unquestionably manageable, you shout in desperation. Prove it. Show me your plan to replace all energy for industry, transportation, agriculture and needed heating and cooling for the present population; using only renewables in the window I was discussing, the next score. Don't just provide 85% of added demand, provide for the total demand of carbon producing energy that is the basis of today's economy. Then review my first post and see where you are in error.

Save your insults, they only illustrate your sickness, just facts. Show us your twenty year solution to replace carbon producing energy that meets the demand of the present economy plus expected growth.

NickB79

(19,224 posts)
9. And not only for the present population
Mon Jan 13, 2014, 01:32 AM
Jan 2014

Most estimates show the global pop. hitting 8-10 billion by 2050. Even if we can hold energy per capita demand to current levels (ha!), we'll still see absolute energy demand rise substantially.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
10. You mean your "we might as well not try" message isn't nihilistic?
Mon Jan 13, 2014, 06:14 AM
Jan 2014

I'm sorry but I think it is.

As for presenting something 'factual', perhaps you need to look in the mirror. The position you are espousing is a radical outlier so it is actually incumbent on you to support the extraordinary claim you are making. If you want anything more specific than this, you'll have to step up with some specifics yourself first.

Your claim that the scale of the technological challenge is too great is actually extremely easy to dispel by pointing to the mobilization for war that occurred during WW2. We accomplished a massive build out of machines that are extremely good proxies for those we need to build to address climate change - and we did it in less than 4 years. If we WANT to do it, we can.

Which brings us to those people who spread messages that are intended to impede that desire....

CRH

(1,553 posts)
14. You want figures, I'll show you mine, then you show yours, ...
Mon Jan 13, 2014, 01:28 PM
Jan 2014

Last edited Mon Jan 13, 2014, 01:59 PM - Edit history (1)

Energy Consumption US

http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/aeo/er/early_intensity.cfm?src=Total-b3

U.S. energy use per capita was fairly constant from 1990 to 2007 but began to fall after 2007. In the AEO2014 Reference case, energy use per capita continues to decline as a result of improvements in energy efficiency (e.g., new appliance and CAFE standards) and changes in the ways energy is used in the U.S. economy. Total U.S. population increases by 21% from 2012 to 2040, but energy use grows by only 12%, with energy use per capita declining by 8% from 2012 to 2040 (Figure 9).

Renewable Generation US
http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/steo/report/renew_co2.cfm

US projected renewable generation for 2013 is projected to be 8.45 quadrillion Btu

US Total Energy Use 2013
http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=11951&src=Total-b1

EIA's Annual Energy Outlook 2013 (AEO2013) Reference case, which assumes continuation of current laws, regulations, and policies, projects continued significant reliance on the three major fossil fuels through at least 2040, when they still supply more than three-quarters of the nation's overall primary energy consumption.

end edit

At this link is also a pretty graph that bleeds all over your assertions. It demonstrates a Btu generation by source, approximations listed below.

Petroleum 35 quadrillion Btu
Natural Gas 25 quadrillion Btu
Coal 17 quadrillion Btu
Nuclear 8 quadrillion Btu

With projected renewable generation at 8.45 quadrillion Btu it represents about 10% of US present usage. With population expected to rise by 21% by 2040, and energy use factoring in efficiency gains is projected to rise 12%, the OP article states 85% of this new demand will be met by renewables. Otherwise renewables are not keeping up with the rise in demand much less replacing the 90% of present energy supplied by fossil fuels.

So the growth of renewables within the US will not come anywhere near preventing the latest predictions from IPCC models, or the more severe latest predictions of research of climate sensitivity models, as stated in my first post. This is not nihilistic, it is just what the numbers say. However, this is only the US, let us view global numbers to determine if the rest of the world is doing better.

http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/ieo/

The International Energy Outlook 2013 (IEO2013) projects that world energy consumption will grow by 56 percent between 2010 and 2040. Total world energy use rises from 524 quadrillion British thermal units (Btu) in 2010 to 630 quadrillion Btu in 2020 and to 820 quadrillion Btu in 2040 (Figure 1). Much of the growth in energy consumption occurs in countries outside the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD),2 known as non-OECD, where demand is driven by strong, long-term economic growth. Energy use in non-OECD countries increases by 90 percent; in OECD countries, the increase is 17 percent. The IEO2013 Reference case does not incorporate prospective legislation or policies that might affect energy markets.

Renewable energy and nuclear power are the world's fastest-growing energy sources, each increasing by 2.5 percent per year. However, fossil fuels continue to supply almost 80 percent of world energy use through 2040. Natural gas is the fastest-growing fossil fuel in the outlook. Global natural gas consumption increases by 1.7 percent per year. Increasing supplies of tight gas, shale gas, and coalbed methane support growth in projected worldwide natural gas use. Coal use grows faster than petroleum and other liquid fuel use until after 2030, mostly because of increases in China's consumption of coal and tepid growth in liquids demand attributed to slow growth in the OECD regions and high sustained oil prices.

The industrial sector continues to account for the largest share of delivered energy consumption; the world industrial sector still consumes over half of global delivered energy in 2040. Given current policies and regulations limiting fossil fuel use, worldwide energy-related carbon dioxide emissions rise from about 31 billion metric tons in 2010 to 36 billion metric tons in 2020 and then to 45 billion metric tons in 2040, a 46-percent increase.

End edit

The EIA International Energy Outlook 2013, clearly demonstrates the global outlook is no better. Fossil fuels projections for 2040 continue to be near 80% of the energy mix with projected carbon rising from the present 31 billion tons to 36 in 2020 and then 45 billion metric tons in 2040.

These numbers can’t be overcome by present renewable technologies. It is not nihilism to blame, it is not a matter of if we should just give up. It is only the reality of the numbers.

Without a breakthrough in renewable technology, a miracle invention in carbon sequestration, an equally improbable advance in geo engineering science, humanity’s hope might best be found preparing for adaption, in expectations and lifestyles.

We have had knowledge of the problem of both population and atmospheric carbon for over sixty years, and failed in our politics and social policies to use our sciences to find solutions or adapt our lifestyles or philosophies.

Now we have about a decade or two at most, to prepare for the price of past transgressions. Nature bats last.

Unless, you have a plan you would like to share with us, that demonstrates far more capability than the entire renewable sector advertises at present.

on edit: replaced two words for accuracy and clarity.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
15. Is that supposed to address the content of the thread above?
Mon Jan 13, 2014, 06:03 PM
Jan 2014

Here, specifically are the claims you are defending:

Better, but not enough to change the outcome, ...
85% of the 'growth demand' of power generation does not address the present demand base we are starting from.
All energy used in the US including transportation was over 5 gigatons in 2012 with the world putting 31 gigatons into the atmosphere. Just curbing the growth of demand doesn't change a thing.

Yes, it does. It indicates a definite change in the fundamental economics of the global energy supply and that translates into a fundamental change in the structure of our energy supply.


The mid-late 2020's is when the latest estimates say the global economy needs to be carbon free, to maintain the not very safe 2*C target for 2100. The recent research indicating errors in the climate sensitivity models move those estimates even further forward.


That is another extraordinary claim. It may be true, but we should have more than the unsupported word of someone that only a couple of months ago didn't know that O2 impacted the amount of CO2 we get from carbon fuels.


Now back to the first point and your latest offering. The fact that the trajectory of renewables is to provide 85% of US demand growth certainly contradicts the EIA and IEA projections of growth for renewables, doesn't it? But that apparently doesn't impact your analysis for some reason. (It could be that you don't actually have an analysis but we'll set that aside for the moment.)

Here is some information you might want to familiarize yourself with: The EIA and the IEA are notorious for serving the interests of the fossil fuel industry. Their projections regarding adoption of renewable technology (including the investment landscape) has been horrible since ... forever.

That isn't just my opinion, either. It became so bad that a couple of years ago the International Renewable ENergy Agency (IRENA) was formed to address the shortcomings inherent in the International Energy Agency's (IEA) mandate.



In fact, all the conservative forecasts about the progress of alternative energy sources have consistently been, not only wrong, but grossly wrong. Reviewing the issue shows that high renewable growth scenarios have consistently proven to be far more accurate than conservative growth scenarios. (Under 'Fair Use' I've included the excerpt from the free downloadable International Renewable Energy Association's (IRENA) 2013 Global Futures Report. This 76 page non-technical report is
"a pioneering publication that provides access to the range of credible possibilities on the future of renewable energy. The report is based on interviews with over 170 leading experts around the world and the projections of 50 recently published scenarios. The report can serve as a tool for dialogue and discussion on future options, and compliments well the REN21 Renewables Global Status Report.

Available here:
http://www.ren21.net/REN21Activities/GlobalFuturesReport.aspx

In terms of historic credibility, the Greenpeace estimate has far more standing than the EIA, which is even more conservative than the IEA.



(pgs 15-17) The world gets about 17–18% of its energy from renewables, including about 9% from “traditional biomass” and about 8% from “modern renewables.”a, b The “traditional” share has been relatively stable for many years, while the “modern” share has grown rapidly since the late 1990s. During the 1990s, projections of renewable energy that were considered most credible, for example by the International Energy Agency (IEA), foresaw shares of modern renewables reaching no more than 5–10% into the far future, given the policies and technologies existing at the time. As a result of the market, policy, and technology developments of the past 15 years, those early projections have already been reached.

In 2011, about 30 countries were getting 20% or more of their total energy from renewables, and some as high as 50%.c (The “total energy” metric counts electricity, heating/cooling, and transport.) Countries in this category include Austria, Brazil, Chile, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, New Zealand, Norway, Peru, the Philippines, Portugal, Romania, Sweden, Uganda, and Uruguay. The European Union (EU) as a whole and the United States both stood at 12%. France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and several other countries were above 10%, and Japan was at 6%. Furthermore, in 2011, about half of all new electric power capacity added worldwide was renewable—as much capacity as fossil and nuclear combined. In interviews, industry experts emphasized that historical thinking and projections about renewable energy remaining a “fringe” techno- logy no longer make sense.

During the late 1990s and early 2000s, as renewable energy started to grow more rapidly than many had predicted, new scenarios emerged that showed much higher long-term shares of renewables. Notable among these was a “Sustained Growth” scenario by the Shell oil company that showed 50% of global energy from renewables by 2050, a figure that shocked many at the time. The IEA also released a report, Energy to 2050: Scenarios for a Sustainable Future, that outlined a “Sustainable Development” scenario with a 35% share from renewables.

By the mid-2000s, a larger number of scenarios emerged showing 30–50% shares. Prominent among these was the first (2006) edition of the IEA Energy Technology Perspectives (ETP), which gave a set of “Accelerated Technology” scenarios for 2050. In these sce- narios, an intermediate case showed a 24% share, and the highest case showed a 30% share. A few years earlier, the German Advisory Council on Global Change (2004) had published its “Exemplary Path” scenario that projected a 50% share by 2050. And in 2007, the first edition of the Energy [R]evolution scenario by Greenpeace and the European Renewable Energy Council (EREC) likewise projected a 50% share by 2050

The most recent scenarios, published in 2010–2012, could be viewed in three main groups: “conservative,” “moderate,” and “high renewables.”5 See Figure 1 for the wide variation between groups. (See Annex 2 for a list of the recent global, regional, and national scenarios covered in this report, including full citations correspond- ing to scenario abbreviations used throughout the text, and see the online supplement, “Scenario Profiles Report,” for summaries of these scenarios.)

Conservative scenarios in the 15–20% range can be found pub- lished by oil companies, some industry groups, the IEA, and the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA). For example, BP’s Energy Outlook 2030 (2012) and ExxonMobil’s Outlook for Energy: A View to 2040 (2012) both show an under-15% share by 2030–2040. The EIA (2011) shows 14% by 2035, and the IEA’s World Energy Outlook (WEO, 2012), in its “New Policies” scenario, shows 18% by 2035. Conservative viewpoints by oil and gas companies mirror such conservative scenarios. These companies continue to make state- ments such as “fossil fuels will continue to provide the majority of the world’s energy supplies for decades to come” (Chevron), and “oil’s preeminence in the global energy mix will remain unchallenged in the foreseeable future” (Total).

Moderate scenarios show long-term renewable energy shares in the 25–40% range. Two IEA examples are the IEA WEO (2012) “450” carbon-stabilization scenario, which shows a 27% renewable energy
16 share by 2035, and the IEA ETP (2012) “2DS” scenario, which shows a 41% share by 2050. The IPCC Special Report on Renewable Energy (2011) synthesized the results of over 160 climate-mitigation scenarios (most from 2009–2010) and found that over half of them project shares above 27% by 2050—a large group in the “moderate” category.7 (And many show very high absolute amounts of renewables, too, under high global energy demand scenarios; see Box 2.)

High-renewables scenarios project 50–95% energy shares of renewables by 2050. For example, the GEA Global Energy Assessment (2012) shows up to 75% in the highest of its “Efficiency” cases and a median share of 55%. The “ACES” scenario by the IEA multilateral program Renewable Energy Technology Deployment (2010) shows 55%. And among the group of 160 scenarios surveyed by the IPCC (2011), there are a number in the range of 50–80%. The biennial Greenpeace Energy [R]evolution scenario, which has become the most widely recognized and thorough projection made by renew- able energy advocates, shows 82%.a At the highest end, WWF (2011) shows a 95% share.8
The credibility of such high-renewables scenarios has increased over the years, following a long tradition of “100%” scenarios dating back to the 1970s by renewable energy advocates and visionaries. The difference is that now, given the scope of government policy targets and market growth in recent years, such high-renewables scenarios are grounded in growing present-day markets.9 (See Endnote 9 for further discussion of “credibility” in the context of scenarios.)

In interviews, most industry experts believed that the world could reach at least 30–50% shares of renewables in the long term. (See also Box 3 for a recent global goal of 30–35%.) And some experts advocated for 100% or near-100% futures. European experts cited considerably higher shares just for Europe (see following section), with many saying that Europe could attain 50–70% shares.10 (Also see following sections for more expert opinions based on individual sectors.)


CRH

(1,553 posts)
17. Yeah, the thread above asks how can you get the green energy needed, ...
Mon Jan 13, 2014, 07:32 PM
Jan 2014

here fast enough. A score was the limit in the post, which is more than the IPCC warns under the current carbon energy usage scenario, will tip us beyond the not so safe 2*C emissions level. Now you give us ren21 which still can't give us green energy fast enough. Show me, in any of their peer reviewed or not, projections, where they can absorb 90% of present energy without carbon. I will be waiting for your demonstration, because what you have posted so far reminds me of the adage, if you can not dazzle them with the truth, baffle them with bullshit.

edit: for spelling

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
19. No, it didn't.
Mon Jan 13, 2014, 09:59 PM
Jan 2014

You made the affirmative statement that it can't be done.
I offered the example of WW2 which is absolute proof that we can, in fact, ramp up the required technologies at a rate that can decarbonize the global economy easily within 20 years - potentially as fast as 10 years.

What we accomplished then is a compelling refutation of your assertion.

Now you want to use a forecast that simply has no track record of being correct. Sorry, no. This isn't the first time we've been down this path on DU.

Conventional Wisdom About Clean Energy Is Still Way Out of Date

“It’s not 1990 anymore.”


CHRIS NELDER: MAY 9, 2013

"We're fifteen to twenty years out of date in how we think about renewables," said Dr. Eric Martinot to an audience at the first Pathways to 100% Renewables Conference held April 16 in San Francisco. "It's not 1990 anymore."

Dr. Martinot and his team recently compiled their 2013 Renewables Global Futures report from two years of research in which they conducted interviews with 170 experts and policymakers from fifteen countries, including local city officials and stakeholders from more than twenty cities. They also reviewed more than 50 recently published scenarios by credible international organizations, energy companies, and research institutes, along with government policy targets for renewable energy, and various corporate reports and energy literature.

The report observes that "[t]he history of energy scenarios is full of similar projections for renewable energy that proved too low by a factor of 10, or were achieved a decade earlier than expected." For example, the International Energy Agency's 2000 estimate for wind power in 2010 was 34 gigawatts, while the actual level was 200 gigawatts. The World Bank's 1996 estimate for China was 9 gigawatts of wind and 0.5 gigawatts for solar PV by 2020, but by 2011 the country had already achieved 62 gigawatts of wind and 3 gigawatts of PV.

Dr. Martinot's conclusion from this exhaustive survey? "The conservative scenarios are simply no longer credible."

There is now a yawning gap between "conservative" scenarios and more optimistic ones, as illustrated in this chart contrasting scenarios published in 2012 by entities like the IEA and ExxonMobil with those offered by groups like the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (an international scientific policy research organization), Greenpeace, and the World Wildlife Fund...


http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/conventional-wisdom-about-clean-energy-is-way-out-of-date?utm_source=Solar&utm_medium=Picture&utm_campaign=GTMDaily

There is a lot of negativity on this board and a great deal of it is aimed at the timetable for deploying renewables. The study in the OP confirms my own research on this topic - research that forms the basis for my outlook on what is coming down the pike for our energy future.

The thoughts I share on the our energy future are often termed "overly optimistic" (to use the most polite phrase), and inevitably the person holding that view will buttresses their argument with the IEA or EIA numbers. I hope this post gives some food for thought for those who misuse the word Cornucopian to let me know they think I'm being unrealistic. One particular poster, in fact, just loves to use the EIA, BP and IEA numbers to create graphs reflecting his feelings of gloom and despair.

Let's recap the numbers above:
"...projections for renewable energy that proved too low by a factor of 10, or were achieved a decade earlier than expected"

International Energy Agency says in 2000 that by 2010 wind power will be at 34 gigawatts; actual level was 200 gigawatts.

1996 World Bank estimate for China by 2020:
9 gigawatts of wind and 0.5 gigawatts for solar PV
China in 2013 they have 75GW of wind and 10GW of solar,

7 years ahead of schedule and wind is 8X+ while solar is 20X. How much do you think they will exceed World Bank predictions by the time 2020 actually gets here? They say 200GW of wind by 2020 and they are on target for 35GW of PV by 2015. Is it a small fraction of their energy supply? Yes, true; but it is damning as part of the evidence on the credibility of conservative estimates for growth in renewables.


So when you look at charts like this:


Or tables like this:


Remember who has a record of poor predictions. That isn't saying we are going to address this threat as fast as we need to, but at least let's start the discussion about what we are going to do with a realistic eye on what is good analysis and what isn't.

CRH

(1,553 posts)
18. Oh and by the way, where did this bit come from, ...
Mon Jan 13, 2014, 07:44 PM
Jan 2014

in you last post ???

That is another extraordinary claim. It may be true, but we should have more than the unsupported word of someone that only a couple of months ago didn't know that O2 impacted the amount of CO2 we get from carbon fuels.

Who is it you are talking about ??? Is it even in context, or are you making up stuff again?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
27. Ok, let's get it on the record.
Tue Jan 14, 2014, 08:37 PM
Jan 2014

What confused you when you saw that, by weight, burning a unit of coal resulted in 2.8 time the CO2 emissions?

CRH

(1,553 posts)
30. I'm not familiar with what you are referring to, ...
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 06:47 AM
Jan 2014

Show the link for context please, if it exists.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
31. It's a simple question
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 07:28 AM
Jan 2014

Someone related some coal consumption to the resulting co2 emissions and you said they were wrong.
What confused you when you saw that, by weight, burning a unit of coal resulted in 2.8 times that in CO2 emissions?

Are you denying that this happened?

CRH

(1,553 posts)
32. I want to see the post you said I made, that I don't remember, ...
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 09:08 AM
Jan 2014

because you have a habit of making up lies as part of your strategy. It appears this is another example of just that.

Put the link up here or we can assume again, you find ways to sink to new lows.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
33. It's a simple question and doesn't require a link.
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 09:21 AM
Jan 2014

Are you seriously going to play that silly game and try to hide your mistake like this? You said it, and it showed you didn't have a clue about the issue of carbon.
Now here you are on this thread trying to pass yourself off as knowledgeable on the topic?

Why not just admit you made a mistake because you are learning?

CRH

(1,553 posts)
35. The simple truth is this whole sub thread is based on your lie, ...
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 12:04 PM
Jan 2014

which you refuse to support. I can't answer to what I did not say. Put up your link, prove your point. Oh that is the problem isn't it, you can't because once again you tried to use a lie to gain advantage in the conversation and when asked to document your lie, you have tried to deflect. You are sick, and this sub thread is over. Your lie is just that, your credibility is none. So run along and waste someone else's time.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
36. Here's the post
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 12:17 PM
Jan 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1127&pid=57878

Of course... not knowing how much the O2 contributes to the total CO2 emissions from burning coal is not at all the same thing as "didn't know that O2 impacted the amount of CO2 we get from carbon fuels" - let alone demonstrate that you "didn't have a clue about the issue of carbon". But why would that stop someone who prefers to debate straw men?

Certainly it's not as far from reality as a belief that we can substantially decarbonize in ten years.

CRH

(1,553 posts)
38. Thank you FBaggins for posting the thread in question, ...
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 05:37 PM
Jan 2014

Now that I know what kristopher is alluding to, my surprise at pscot figures were swiftly explained by hatrack, GG, kristopher and yourself. It was not a tough concept to grasp and made perfect sense when I thought about it.

I only have to wonder what it had to do with the late 2020's timeline for present emissions scenarios and the resulting 2*C threshold that will be passed, if many climate scientists and economists are correct.

Thanks again for providing the post in question.

CRH

(1,553 posts)
40. Why didn't you just post the thread as asked several times, ...
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 09:07 PM
Jan 2014

all I had to go on was your description: didn't know that O2 impacted the amount of CO2 we get from carbon fuels.. This hardly describes the post or the question I raised. Several posters corrected my misconception, there was no argument. And yet you repeatedly refused to post the link. Why?

And what does this have to do with what I posted, that we have perhaps a score to replace our carbon generation to have a chance at maintaining the 2*C target? Perhaps less with the latest research indicating higher end estimates for climate sensitivity. How was this supposed to be germane to the previous post that demonstrated 90% of our current energy was produced by hydro carbons and nuclear with renewables at 10%. Oh yeah, you didn't like those figures, or the forecasts, because they were from the EIA. But when I cross check them with BP, they are in the ball park.

Let me cover your other post 37 at the same time. Once again you create your own reality with mis statements. Search of where I accused you of name calling. I simply stated, Anyone disagrees you don't debate, you attack. You attack with false accusation, then divert without presenting anything factual. Which is exactly what you did in post 3 and again in post 5. Then I was a nihilist because I didn't see any numbers in renewable energy that would provide green energy fast enough. Though I never accused you of name calling, I simply pointed out that did not make me a nihilist, I only thought humankind's actions might be better served toward adaption of both lifestyle and expectations.

Here let me help you out, here is the definition of nihilism -- the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.• Philosophy extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence. Simply because I believe humans will have a very tough time if and when we blow through 2*C, does not mean I reject moral principles, or believe life is meaningless or is lacking in real existence.

The rest of post 37 is more of your rejection of what I have posted which is your privilege. Just as it is my privilege to spend or invest my time on DU, and not waste it.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
41. FFS
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 09:23 PM
Jan 2014
Full Definition of NIHILISM
1
a : a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless
b : a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths
2
a : a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility
b capitalized : the program of a 19th century Russian party advocating revolutionary reform and using terrorism and assassination


And, after calling me a sick liar several times you are trying to pretend you are the victim by omitting the appropriate definition of nihilism?

And so it goes with you. You made claims that can't be substantiated because they're based on poor scholarship and understanding of the issues. When you were exposed you resorted to personal insults and abusive behavior. And then you wonder why I'm not willing to go running around looking for an (obviously true) reference that demonstrated that lack of understanding. That was 2 months ago and it is the type of fundamental error that shows a low level of knowledge on the topic. I also gave you a fair opportunity to explain what else might have prompted the mistake. You resorted to more name calling.

Take a hike.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
37. CRH - you accused me of name calling when I pointed out that you preach nihilism
Wed Jan 15, 2014, 03:13 PM
Jan 2014

A statement that is certainly true - meaning your attack on me was, itself an ad hominem attack.

Since we have you engaged in extending that approach on a number of posts through the thread, culminating in this diatribe:

The simple truth is this whole sub thread is based on your lie, ...
which you refuse to support. I can't answer to what I did not say. Put up your link, prove your point. Oh that is the problem isn't it, you can't because once again you tried to use a lie to gain advantage in the conversation and when asked to document your lie, you have tried to deflect. You are sick, and this sub thread is over. Your lie is just that, your credibility is none. So run along and waste someone else's time.


All of that because you were caught out pretending to knowledge you lack.

Baggins has tried to spin it for you, but he can't help himself; he reflexively does that with even the most egregious postings as long as he sees in it something he believes that will ultimately help him defend and promote nuclear on this board. And make no mistake - discrediting anyone against nuclear is very high on his list of things that help him promote and defend nuclear power. (If you'd like links for that I Do have those handy.)


So let's recap, ok?
You made two extraordinary claims, one of which was this:
"The mid-late 2020's is when the latest estimates say the global economy needs to be carbon free, to maintain the not very safe 2*C target for 2100. The recent research indicating errors in the climate sensitivity models move those estimates even further forward."


My reply was:
That is another extraordinary claim. It may be true, but we should have more than the unsupported word of someone that only a couple of months ago didn't know that O2 impacted the amount of CO2 we get from carbon fuels.


Bear in mind this was after you had already totally failed to support your assertions. I knew I'd seen your post on carbon recently and been struck by it and I didn't need to reference it for the details. So, i gave you the essence and ASKED you to explain what happened:
"What confused you when you saw that, by weight, burning a unit of coal resulted in 2.8 time the CO2 emissions?"


You replied that you had not made such a mistake. You could have looked for it yourself, but you knew you were unable to prove your fundamental assertions you started with, therefore you seem to have decided to engage in denial and name calling instead.

Now Baggins has provided the link - so how about explaining it as I asked? Here is the text so that you won't need to trouble yourself with clicking through. If you have an explanation other than it being a demonstration of you lacking the knowledge "that O2 impacted the amount of CO2 we get from carbon fuels" I'm honestly eager to hear it.
pscot

8. 100 million tons of coal for China will pass through Washington state each year if the proposed coal ports at Cherry Point and Longview are allowed to happen. Burning that coal will add another 286 million tons of CO2 to the atmosphere every year.



Response to pscot (Reply #8)Tue Nov 19, 2013, 03:18 PM

CRH

22. 100 million tons of coal will produce 286 million tons of CO2 byproduct ???

I think you might want to check those figures, or the word 'that' in the last sentence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112757817#post22

PamW

(1,825 posts)
21. Propaganda 101 at play..
Mon Jan 13, 2014, 10:23 PM
Jan 2014

CRH states
Anyone disagrees you don't debate, you attack. You attack with false accusation, then divert without presenting anything factual.

That's the tenets of Propaganda 101.

Truth, especially objective scientific truth; means nothing to the propagandist.

The propagandist will attack you, or will flood you with a plethora of meaningless drivel cut and pasted from other sources that don't address the issue at hand.

They also make a common logic error. If you have a technology that can do 1% of the job, then by extension it can do 2%, and hence 3%....all the way up to 100%. They don't address the limitations that the Laws of Physics place an various technologies.

I really don't see the purpose of such propaganda; save from some type of "game playing" on DU.

The Laws of Physics won't let ANYONE go beyond the limits that those physical laws impose on a given technology. So what good does it do to OVER SELL the technology on DU? You get a bunch of people buying in to the over sold technology that are going to be disappointed when the technology can't deliver beyond those physical limits. So what good does it do to over sell the technology?

The only thing that makes sense to me is that someone that over sells the technology has to be working for the benefit of the current power generation technologies. Because those are the technologies that are going to be the fall back technologies when the over sold technologies can't deliver.

If renewables are over sold, and can't deliver; then the beneficiaries will be the coal conglomerates because coal will be the fall back fuel.

In the meantime, the coal industry will have successfully defended against technologies that could really replace coal; but those technologies were ignored in favor of the over sold "pie in the sky" renewables.

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

NickB79

(19,224 posts)
7. It is NOT manageable in the time we have left
Sun Jan 12, 2014, 08:56 PM
Jan 2014

We have at most 10 years before we're so far over the carbon cliff that nothing short of a miracle will stop a 2-4C amount of warming by 2100.

It is only manageable if you assume we have another 50 years to scale up and deploy massive amounts of renewables.

The current pace of renewable rollout is a great way to blunt the worst impacts of climate change, but won't pull our collective asses out of the fire.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
11. Sure Nick.
Mon Jan 13, 2014, 06:16 AM
Jan 2014

You are the new prophet of climate change.
We all bow down to your unsupported word that no expert agrees with.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
22. ASSERTION ONLY - NO PROOF!!!
Mon Jan 13, 2014, 10:34 PM
Jan 2014

kristopher states
We all bow down to your unsupported word that no expert agrees with.

As per usual, kristopher offers mere assertions in lieu of any proof; although he "thinks" his assertions are proof.

The fact of the matter is that Nick is correct if you go by the consensus of the scientific community.

Climate scientist Dr. James Hansen says it best:

http://www.masterresource.org/2011/08/james-hansen-renewable-energy/

“Suggesting that renewables will let us phase rapidly off fossil fuels in the United States, China, India, or the world as a whole is almost the equivalent of believing in the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy.”

and

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

PamW

(1,825 posts)
24. Messenger shooting
Tue Jan 14, 2014, 02:51 PM
Jan 2014

I'm just telling you what the US Congress has authorized. Lest there are DUers of the same mindset as Sister Rice. Especially now, the security forces will respond as they are commanded.

PamW

NickB79

(19,224 posts)
28. We're currently at 400 ppm CO2
Tue Jan 14, 2014, 08:38 PM
Jan 2014

The highest level in 3 million years. And scarily enough, the rate has actually sped up in the past few years, rather than slow.

Even the best-case scenarios laid out, involving massive renewables deployment, don't show CO2 levels falling in our lifetimes, or the lifetimes of our children, or their children. At best, we stabilize at 400 ppm within a century and pray to God that's enough to keep global civilization from falling apart.

At the current 0.8C of warming we're at, we're already seeing climate effects that previous models predicted wouldn't occur until 2C was breached (ice-free Arctic Ocean, anyone?). And the past few years research into climate change has found that the atmosphere is far more sensitive to CO2 than previously thought, the effects of cloud cover act as positive, not negative, feedbacks, massive amounts of heat is being dumped into the oceans (and that they may be reaching their limits of CO2 absorbtion), and that we never actually had a "pause" in warming after all. What do you think will happen when we breach 2C of warming then, given all these dire warning signs?

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2013/05/09/400-ppm-carbon-dioxide-in-the-atmosphere-reaches-prehistoric-levels/

Some scientists argue we passed the safe level for greenhouse gas concentrations long ago, pointing to the accelerating impacts, from extreme weather to the meltdown of Arctic sea ice. Others argue that we have yet more room to burn fossil fuels, clear forests and the like—but not much—before catastrophic climate change becomes inescapable. And the international community of nations has agreed that 450 ppm—linked to a rise of 2 degrees Celsius in global average temperatures—should not be exceeded. We are not on track to avoid that limit, whether you prefer the economic analysis of experts like the International Energy Agency or the steady monitoring of mechanical sensors.


Like I said, we have precious little time left to effect the type of change needed to prevent locking 2C of warming in. Renewables are a great way to blunt the pain, but won't keep us below 2C of warming, much less 3-4C by 2100.

But clearly this is all unsupported gobbly-gook in the scientific community, right Kris?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
29. So Hansen's recent promotion of nuclear power was...?
Tue Jan 14, 2014, 08:43 PM
Jan 2014

I don't agree with his recommendation in large part because we are, indeed, pressed for time. But my disagreement is neither here nor there as far as this point goes - why does Hansen still press for action?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
13. All New Generation in Australia Will Be Renewables Through 2020 (closes 3.7GW coal)
Mon Jan 13, 2014, 06:32 AM
Jan 2014
All New Generation in Australia Will Be Renewables Through 2020
By Katherine Tweed
Posted 20 Dec 2013 | 17:07 GMT

All new electricity generation in Australia will come from renewable energy through 2020, according to a new report from the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) [PDF].

The bulk of the new power will be wind, with large-scale scale solar photovoltaics comprising about about 13 percent and biomass making up the rest at 3 percent. There are nearly 15 800 megawatts of proposed wind generation projects, according to the AEMO. More than 780 MW of the wind power is expected to come online in 2014-2015.


new australia generation

A carbon tax has been in effect Down Under since 2012, but the government could repeal it. Even without the tax, coal power will still be retired as more renewables come online, according to the report. By 2020, there could be 3700 MW less coal-fired generation, about 13 percent of the country's total coal power production.

In the short term, however, AEMO is focused on the challenges of bringing renewables online, which can introduce transmission and distribution issues onto the grid. Intermittent renewable energy can cause instability and can require more ancillary services such as frequency regulation to offset the variable power coming from wind or solar. The AEMO will include transmission connection point forecasts into its electricity forecasts moving forward and is reviewing transmission projects.

The market operator is also developing an independent assessment...

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/all-new-generation-in-australia-will-be-renewables-through-2020


Report:
http://www.pennenergy.com/content/dam/Pennenergy/online-articles/2013/December/2013_NTNDP.pdf.pdf
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