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Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 09:29 PM Nov 2013

Ultra-High Efficiency Methanol Engines w Advncd Exhaust Energy Recovry: 50% Efficiency gain over ICE


... using gasoline only.

presentation by Leslie Bromberg, Kevin Cedrone, Daniel R. Cohn, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, at the
20th International Symposium on Alcohol Fuels (ISAF), March 26, 2013

They are proposing an engine with direct injection and onboard reforming of methanol yielding up 50% efficiency gains over PFI ICE. Marginal cost of $1,500 to $2,500. Annual savings $600 to $1,000 from efficiency gain alone (without considering cost savings on alcohol fuel vs gasoline)

http://academic.sun.ac.za/microbiology/Documents/ISAF%20PDF%20for%20web/Session%2010/Kevin%20Cedrone.pdf
[font size="3"]
Methanol

–Most efficient, economical liquid fuel to produce from coal and natural gas

–Physical and chemical properties enable ultra-high efficiency engines

• Up to 50% higher efficiency than standard gasoline engine in cars
• 20 - 25% higher efficiency than diesel engine in trucks

Ethanol

–Can be made from natural gas and coal
–Provides similar but lower production and efficiency advantages
–Accepted in US, distribution infrastructure already exists

Ethanol, methanol are liquid fuels produced from biomass/waste most efficiently

[hr]

Reformer Enhanced Alcohol Engines


Internal Combustion Engine

Due to high RON and evaporative properties, alcohol fuels facilitate higher engine efficiency

• Higher compression ratio
• Downsize, turbocharge, direct injection
• Heavy EGR/lean + H2-rich reformate gas

Organic Rankine Cycle (ORC)

Alcohol fuels as ORC working fluid, 2 options:

• No-condenser option
  • Fuel injected after turbine

• No-condenser, no-turbine option
  • Fuel reformed to H2-rich gas, injected to engine, no turbine




[/font]
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Ultra-High Efficiency Methanol Engines w Advncd Exhaust Energy Recovry: 50% Efficiency gain over ICE (Original Post) Bill USA Nov 2013 OP
If we use fuel to get our power, we are living on our capital and exhausting it rapidly. NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #1
Ethanol, methanol are liquid fuels produced from biomass/waste most efficiently Bill USA Nov 2013 #2
Liquid fuels are the problem. FogerRox Nov 2013 #3
if you don't like renewable fuels, what's your answer to AGW which is accelerating. Note that I Bill USA Nov 2013 #4
Hey Bill USA, ... CRH Nov 2013 #5
you make no distinction between renewable hydrocarbons and fossil hydrocarbons? Bill USA Nov 2013 #6
I propose we stop putting CO2 in the atmosphere, ... CRH Nov 2013 #7
renewable fuels are made from plant sources which, when growing removed CO2 from the atmosphere. By Bill USA Nov 2013 #8
We know that, we're not stupid. FogerRox Nov 2013 #10
ethanol & methanol have higher octane ratings than gasoline using turbo-charging or supercharging Bill USA Nov 2013 #13
I hope youre not confusing octane for horsepower/BTU/Calories FogerRox Nov 2013 #18
the Heat content is not the only thing that is of importance when burning fuel under compression. Bill USA Nov 2013 #35
You illustrate my qualm with what you are promoting, ... CRH Nov 2013 #12
see link Bill USA Nov 2013 #14
Your link does not answer the post you respond, ... CRH Nov 2013 #15
Doesnt get it. I told this person last wed that liquid fuels are the problem FogerRox Nov 2013 #20
please provide a timeframe for your suggestion to reform our entire transporation sector...see quote Bill USA Nov 2013 #16
Nat gas vehicles have been around for decades FogerRox Nov 2013 #19
BTUs not a measurement of work, they are a measurement of heat poopfuel Nov 2013 #23
Yup madokie Nov 2013 #24
Understood. And those engines are more expensive FogerRox Nov 2013 #27
Engines more expensive? Sez who? The oil companies? poopfuel Nov 2013 #28
This message was self-deleted by its author Bill USA Nov 2013 #31
check the actual data. The MIT Ethanol Enabled Direct Injection engine is estimated to cost Bill USA Nov 2013 #34
Natural gas vehicles deliver comparable mpge to gasoline. methanol and ethanol when used in an Bill USA Nov 2013 #29
Have it your way Bill, ... CRH Nov 2013 #25
give me a timeframe for the changes... 30, 100, 200 yrs? You are taking a religious (non rational) Bill USA Nov 2013 #30
I see the article you refer to is by Timothy Searchinger. No sensible person would waste his time Bill USA Nov 2013 #17
Spoken like a true supporter of biofuels, ... CRH Nov 2013 #26
ILUCs are entirely hypothetical, entirely lacking any empirical validation. Bill USA Nov 2013 #32
it is important to note that there is NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that corn ethanol production causes Bill USA Nov 2013 #33
Methanol feuled engines are still internal combustion engine. FogerRox Nov 2013 #9
the fact that you cannot or will not see the difference between renewable fuels and fossil fuels Bill USA Nov 2013 #36
I openly despise our automobile highway culture. hunter Nov 2013 #11
Yeah we went overboard with the car in every garage schtick. FogerRox Nov 2013 #21
Many "three car garage" suburbs could easily be converted into very pleasant "walkable" communities. hunter Nov 2013 #22
 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
1. If we use fuel to get our power, we are living on our capital and exhausting it rapidly.
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 09:36 PM
Nov 2013
THE POWER OF THE FUTURE

We have at our disposal three main sources of life-sustaining energy—fuel, water-power and the heat of the sun's rays. Engineers often speak of harnessing the tides, but the discouraging truth is that the tidewater over one acre of ground will, on the average, develop only one horse-power. Thousands of mechanics and inventors have spent their best efforts in trying to perfect wave motors, not realizing that the power so obtained could never compete with that derived from other sources. The force of wind offers much better chances and is valuable in special instances, but is by far inadequate. Moreover, the tides, waves and winds furnish only periodic and often uncertain power and necessitate the employment of large and expensive storage plants. Of course, there are other possibilities, but they are remote, and we must depend on the first of three resources.

If we use fuel to get our power, we are living on our capital and exhausting it rapidly. This method is barbarous and wantonly wasteful, and will have to be stopped in the interest of coming generations. The heat of the sun's rays represents an immense amount of energy vastly in excess of water-power.

The earth receives an equivalent of 83 foot-pounds per second for each square foot on which the rays fall perpendicularly. From simple geometrical rules applying to a spherical body it follows that the mean rate per square foot of the earth's surface is one-quarter of that, or 20 3/4 foot-pounds.

This is to say over one million horse-power per square mile, or 250 times the water-power for the same area. But that is only true in theory; the practical facts put this in a different aspect. For instance, considering the United States, and taking into account the mean latitude, the daily variation, the diurnal changes, the seasonal variations and casual changes, this power of the sun's rays reduces to about one-tenth, or 100,00 horse-power per square mile, of which we might be able to recover in high-speed low-pressure turbines 10,000 horse-power. To do this would mean the installment of apparatus and storage plants so large and expensive that such a project is beyond the pale of the practical. The inevitable conclusion is that water-power is by far our most valuable resource. On this humanity must build its hopes for the future. With its full development and a perfect system of wireless transmission of the energy to any distance man will be able to solve all the problems of material existence. Distance, which is the chief impediment to human progress, will be completely annihilated in thought, word and action. Humanity will be united, wars will be made impossible and peace will reign supreme.

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1915-09-09.htm


We need to get over using fuel, and let the ICU take it's place in history as a quaint but unsustainable blip in the history of technology.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
2. Ethanol, methanol are liquid fuels produced from biomass/waste most efficiently
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 09:40 PM
Nov 2013

... see second view graph

"Ethanol, methanol are liquid fuels produced from biomass/waste most efficiently"

Methanol and ethanol can be made entirely of renewable biomass. We have enough waste biomass each year to replace all the gasoline we burn with renewable fuel.

Renewable means that plant sources are turned into fuel. The plants grow and are cut down (e.g. lumber harvesting produces forestry product waste material) or you can use agricultural waste (you do not have to leave 100% of crop residue on the fields for sustainable management).


Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
4. if you don't like renewable fuels, what's your answer to AGW which is accelerating. Note that I
Thu Nov 7, 2013, 07:55 PM
Nov 2013

dont' think we should only use renewable fuels. the advantage to renewable fuels is that we can reduce GHG emissions from automobiles faster because you can replace the fuel faster than you can replace the cars that burn the fuel.

We cannot wait 20 to 30 years for electrics and hybrids to reach possibly 20% to 25% of the entire light transportation fleet yielding perhaps 50% reduction in fossil fuel consumption per vehicle. That results in an aggregate GHG reduction of about 10% to 12.5% reduction for the entire fleet. That is too little too late. We certainly should develop these technologies but if you are thinking they are going to be enough, soon enough (just looking at transportation emissions) you are kidding yourself.

so what've you got that's better?


CRH

(1,553 posts)
5. Hey Bill USA, ...
Thu Nov 7, 2013, 08:22 PM
Nov 2013

Stop prompting hydrocarbons, the science is in, ...
Start promoting, Solutions. ... Nada mass, nada menus.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
6. you make no distinction between renewable hydrocarbons and fossil hydrocarbons?
Thu Nov 7, 2013, 09:00 PM
Nov 2013

What do you propose to do re accelerating AGW? Given our present commitment and actions we are not going to rein in GW. All we can hope for is to mitigate it. Let's hear how you think we can do that.

Whatcha got? ... prayer?


CRH

(1,553 posts)
7. I propose we stop putting CO2 in the atmosphere, ...
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:49 AM
Nov 2013

ethanol, methanol, it matters little if they are renewable. Their combustion produces CO2.

If we keep trying to continue use of individual transportation while producing CO2, all the prayer in your sarcasm will not help.

AGW does not distinguish if the source of CO2 is renewable, it is an effect of too much CO2 in the atmosphere.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
8. renewable fuels are made from plant sources which, when growing removed CO2 from the atmosphere. By
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:56 PM
Nov 2013

replacing fossil fuel with renewable fuels you prevent the addition of CO2 by the combustion of fossil fuels which supplies 'new' CO2 to the atmosphere.

As I said, if you have any better ideas, I'm sure the world would love to hear them - that means more than just saying "stop burning fuels, renewable or otherwise".

Naturally, we should subsidize mass transportation and invest in efficiency gains for all motors and appliances. We should keep investing in and selling more electric and hybrid vehicles. But Global warming isn't going to wait for us to achieve some technological great improvement which takes years to realize in appreciable amounts (of CO2 emissions reductions). Global Warming is accelerating as I write this. Permafrost is thawing, Ice sheets are sliding off Greenland and the Antarctic continent at accelerating rates, and the ocean is becoming more and more acidic. We don't have the luxury of waiting for the perfect solution to accumulate it's marvelous impacts on CO2 emissions over, say 20 years or so. We must act now. WE have to get results sooner than that.

So, any better ideas?...at all?



FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
10. We know that, we're not stupid.
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 10:08 PM
Nov 2013

!) Methanol has about 35% less caloric energy than gas.
2) Hi compression engines are needed to run methanol, they cost more money.
3) MPG sucks for methanol.
4) Biomass harvesting and digestion costs and can be inefficient depending on the feedstock.


That said Methanol from biomass has some merit, but its easier to make methanol from coal and nat gas than biomass, which is not a mature technology. there will be a need to prevent people from making methanol from coal and nat gas.

As EV cars, hydrogen fuel cells, carbon capture become common place, liquid fuels will become niche.

CH3OH(g) + H2(g) ? 3 H2 + CO2

Or, in plain English:

Methanol + Water + heat ? 3 Hydrogen + Carbon Dioxide

And of course the above doesnt happen without building a device, which further increases the cost of the vehicle, estimated at @ $2,000 according to the link you provided in the OP.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
13. ethanol & methanol have higher octane ratings than gasoline using turbo-charging or supercharging
Sun Nov 10, 2013, 06:39 PM
Nov 2013

you can achieve the higher combustion chamber pressures needed.. the result is a lot more power out of the same size engine.. or enough power from a smaller engine. In this way you get better mpg with ethanol or methanol than with gasoline.

replacing fossil fuel burning cars with renewable fuel burning cars means you stop new CO2 from enterring the atmosphere. THis is a positive move.

you said: "As EV cars, hydrogen fuel cells, carbon capture become common place, liquid fuels will become niche."

HOW LONG DO YOU THINK THAT WILL TAKE? ?Given the cost of hybrids (additonal $4,000-$5,000) and PHEVs (additional ~$15,000) It will take about 20- 25 years for hybrids and electrics to reach about 20% to 25% of the entire fleet. (you can forget about heavier trucks). At 50% reduction in GHG emissions per vehicle (PHEVs must include GHG emissions for the power for charging) you would see 10% - 13% GHG reduction for entire fleet - in 20 to 25 yrs. IF we do nothing to reduce GHG emissions in the mean time we can forget about reining in AGW.

YOu can make FFVs with direct injection and turbo-charging or super charging for much less, therefor the adoption will be much faster. Thus getting reductions in GHGs for transportation sector much sooner when it will have a bigger impact than 20 yrs hence.
The example given in OP costs about half of what a hybrid costs. This makes all the difference in selling to consumers.

If we wait 20 - 25 years to get 10% to 13% reduction in light transportation GHG emissions we're screwed. This, by itself, is not a realistic plan. sorry to say. I wish global warming would wait for us but it won't.

the permafrost is defrosting faster than formerly thought. when permafrost decays it emits methane which is 75 times the heat trapping capacity of CO2 for 20-25 years. After that it breaks down into CO2.

Ice sheets on Greenland are sliding off at a faster rate than before. This will continue. nobody knows just when they will reach a point when the speed will abruptly increase. (it's not going to be a nice neat linear increase in speed).

Acidification of oceans - nobody knows for sure when the food chain in the oceans will break down due to shell forming plankton dieing off.

Time is a luxury we do not have when it comes to reining in or slowing AGW.


FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
18. I hope youre not confusing octane for horsepower/BTU/Calories
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:54 PM
Nov 2013

You cant alter the fact that ethanol & methanol have much less caloric value, the best way to burn them in a motor is at high compression.

Gas contains ... 114,000 BTU
Ethanol contains..... 76,100 BTU
Methanol contains ...56,800 BTU

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

A BTU only does so much work, thermodynamics and all that...

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
35. the Heat content is not the only thing that is of importance when burning fuel under compression.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:53 PM
Nov 2013

the higher octane of ethanol ( 100% Ethanol ~ 115-116) and methanol (~113) vs gasoline (93 high test) enables these fuels to be burned at higher compression than gasoline. This produces more power and enables a greater amount of work (e.g. like moving a car a given distance) to be done with same amount of fuel.

Higher octane fuels love high compression engines. NOw, three MIT scientists designed what they call and Ethanol Enabled Direct Injection engine which uses only 5% ethanol - directly injected into the combustion chamber - and 955 gasoline. This takes advantage of another characteristic of ethanol (and methanol). They have a higher latent heat than gasoline. When used in direct injection engines this cools the air fuel charge and actually allows you to use a bit more compression (supplied by a turbo-charger in this case). Compression of a gas causes it to heat up - and if it's combustible you can get pre-ignition. That's bad. But with ethanol's higher latent heat cooling the air-fuel charge this sucks up some of the heat generated in compression and you can actually use some more compression.. More compression means more power output.

..If the Government was serious about getting the most out of ethanol we can, they would incentivise the manufacture of turbo-boosted engines for FFVs. Electronically controlled turbo-charged (to turn it on only when E85 was being used) engines could get just as good as mpg as the gasoline only engines get. The Ethanol Enabled Direct Injection engine designed by the MIT scientists gets 30% BETTER mpg than the typical ICE on gasoline. http://www.ethanolboost.com/

in 1998 in response to something called the Ethanol Vehicle Challenge about a dozen teams of college engineeering students optimized 1997 Malibus to run on E85. ALL THE TEAMs produced engines that got BETTER mpg - on the city driving cycle - than the stock Malibu got on gasoline. THE THREE TOP TEAMS PRODUCED CARS THAT GOT 13% TO 15% BETTER MPG ON E85 THAN THE STOCK MALIBU GOT ON GASOLINE.

YOU CAN GET BETTER MPG WITH ETHANOL (OR METHANOL) AND THE GOVERNMENT KNOWS IT - THEY WERE THE SPONSORS OF THE ETHANOL VEHICLE CHALLENGE I SPOKE OF (along with GM and Environment Canada).


.... remember: KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!




CRH

(1,553 posts)
12. You illustrate my qualm with what you are promoting, ...
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 06:43 PM
Nov 2013

And my better idea is not to promote more of what is not sustainable.

You are trying to find a solution to preserving private transportation, that isn't carbon emission free. The days of everyone having an individual source of transportation, will be one of the first 'serious' mitigations.

You said your self, AGW, anthropogenic global warming, is accelerating. Even with a future of status quo, it will continue to accelerate, because already engaged feedbacks, and population continues to rise and the third and second worlds, want a better lifestyle, as well.

You have pointed out the global ice is melting, methane is releasing from frozen carbon sinks, and it is too late to stop AGW. All true. However, then you suggest mitigation is all we have left, and that bio fuels are a serious mitigation, which simply is not true. Even in the perfect world, biofuels can not do better than break even with our carbon footprints. When used for private transportation, they only serve to stretch the time the car culture can be viable.

It would be much better to put resources toward societies that require much less travel, economies that are oriented toward local subsistence and sustainability, and lifestyles that pursue needs not whims.

Mitigation means removing carbon from the atmosphere, not maintaining levels that already are melting the planet. Biofuels no matter how efficient the source, still put CO2 into the atmosphere, and rarely break even with the carbon budget. Breaking even, is not good enough, especially with a global economy that is still trying to grow, rather than subside.

Below is a study from 2010 on the viability of biofuels to provide a real solution, or even a bridge to a real solution. It also looks in depth, at the potential level of influence biofuels should have in our future policy, viewing the limitations of carbon producing biofuels.

In reality they rarely break even with the carbon sequestration budget.

http://coophigh.com/app/download/4745835304/Bio+Fuels.pdf

CRH

(1,553 posts)
15. Your link does not answer the post you respond, ...
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:16 AM
Nov 2013

1. The private transportation culture is not sustainable, and its elimination will be one of the first serious mitigations for global heating.

2. It would be much better to put resources toward societies that require much less travel, economies that are oriented toward local subsistence and sustainability, and lifestyles that pursue needs not whims.

3. Biofuels are not a serious mitigation strategy as they do not reduce the net CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere. The link you were provided goes into various misconceptions promoted by those who would simply replace fossil hydrocarbons with biofuels.

4. You can't mitigate global heating without removing carbon from the atmosphere, yet the entire biofuel process does not improve the carbon sequestration budget. The biofuel strategy appears to only stretch the time, carbon producing technologies can be employed. This in no way can be represented as a solution to the problem.

Again check the link from post 12, if you want to learn of the limitations of biofuels.

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
20. Doesnt get it. I told this person last wed that liquid fuels are the problem
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:09 PM
Nov 2013

I see you've noticed the hand waving ....

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
16. please provide a timeframe for your suggestion to reform our entire transporation sector...see quote
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:06 PM
Nov 2013

[font color="blue"]"It would be much better to put resources toward societies that require much less travel, economies that are oriented toward local subsistence and sustainability, and lifestyles that pursue needs not whims." [/font]

... also what exactly does that mean "societies that require much less travel, economies that are oriented toward local subsistence and sustainability". Nothing too ambitious here .. just the reforming the entirety of human society ... and done quickly (as it needs to be).

In the mean time, are you going to just have people driving fossil fueled autos with their GHG emissions piling up. Not a very practical approach to stopping or reducing GW.

Note I mentioned subsidizing mass transit. If everybody decides to get out of personal cars let them do that. Cheaper mass transit would facilitate such a move. I am for it!

I prefer realistic, and practical approaches to address the problem of AGW - rather than grand philosophical/religious/societal approaches. If you replace fossil fueled cars with renewable fueled cars you are preventing 'x' number of fossil fueled cars from adding GHGs to the atmosphere. This is better than everybody driving fossil fueled cars until a more perfect solution becomes feasible (alas, a perfect solution cannot be made to materialize overnight...sorry)

[font size="4"] So, how long till we reach this perfect society of zero GHG emissions from transportation? [/font] I'd love to hear something quantified. Meanwhile AGW is churning along - and gaining momentum. At some point, pretty soon it will be beyond our ability to rein in. GW feeds on itself. Thawing permafrost releases methane - 75 times the heat trapping capacity of CO2 - for 20 - 25 years - then it breaks down into CO2 and water vapor. Over 100 years methane has about 34 times the heat trapping capacity of CO2.

I can't say DEFINITELY when we reach the point where we cannot rein in GW, but I do suspect it's very close now (hopefully it's not too late). I think (hope?) that with a massive commitment to the things i suggested, if we began right now, we could do that....HOWEVER, I DON'T THINK PEOPLE WILL COMMIT TO IT. Many will hold out to do nothing except to wait for a perfect solution and thus GW will get beyond our ability to rein it in.

Here is a link to a study by the National Academy of Sciences- their conclusion: NO ONE APPROACH TO SOLVING GLOBAL WARMING WILL WORK BY ITSELF. WE NEED TO USE EVERYTHING WE CAN - IMPROVED EFFICIENCY, RENEWABLES, CARBON SEQUESTRATION, HYBRIDS AND PHEVs.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/20/how-to-cut-u-s-oil-use-in-half-by-2030/



... the report argues, it's tough to find any single technology that can cut oil use in half by 2030 on its own. Making conventional cars more efficient won't do it. A major push on electric vehicles won't do it. The only things likely to work are a massive switch over to natural-gas vehicles (which would, in turn, make it much harder to hit the greenhouse-gas goals) or a combination of efficiency, electric vehicles, and advanced biofuels:



Electric vehicles: The NAS report estimates that electric vehicles will catch on relatively slowly in the next few decades, even if battery costs drop by a factor of 5, because "limited range and long recharge time are likely to limit the use of all-electric vehicles mainly to local driving." What's more, it will be hard to meet long-term emissions goals through plug-in vehicles alone so long as the electric grid is still powered by fossil fuels. Still, the report notes, electric vehicles are an extremely promising way to curtail gasoline use.


Yes, indeed electric cars are a promising way of reducing GHG emissions but they take a long time to get adopted in large enough numbers to make much of a difference. Figure we MIGHT get enough hybrids and electrics sold to be about one fifth to one fourth of the entire fleet - in 20 to 25 years. Meaning at 50% GHG reduction, on average, per car - that gives you a whole 10% to 13% aggregate GHG reduction for the light transportation sector. In TWENTY to TWENTY-FIVE years! Not good enough, soon enough - BY ITSELF.

I am rather dumbfounded that the NAS suggests using natural gas cars considering the infrastructure and auto manufacturing costs required (which will slow adoption). It makes much more sense to make methanol from the natural gas and use that in cars which can be designed to use Methanol (and ethanol) much more cheaply (and efficiently) than to manufacture cars to use natural gas (Honda has a natural gas powered Civic that costs about $9,000 more than gasoline Civic).

Link to the actual NAS report: http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=18264

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
19. Nat gas vehicles have been around for decades
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 10:04 PM
Nov 2013

making methanol from nat gas requires work, and the nat gas you start with has 75,000 BTU, and you expend BTUs to turn the nat gas to methanol, which has the equivalent of 56,800 BTU to start.

SO yeah the NAS did the math, and you didnt.

poopfuel

(250 posts)
23. BTUs not a measurement of work, they are a measurement of heat
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 01:09 AM
Nov 2013

Ethanol engines work more efficiently. Never mind the heating value.
From the book Alcohol Can Be a Gas, we read

When comparing fuels, it's important to compare BTU per mile and the efficiency with which a fuel is converted to work. Although alcohol starts off with fewer heating value BTU, it burns with a much higher efficiency than gasoline, so that the miles per gallon are either very close or when an engine is optimized for alcohol, actually higher than gas.... alcohol has achieved 48% work efficiency in the lab and 43 % on the road. Gasoline hovers between 15-20 percent......

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
27. Understood. And those engines are more expensive
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 08:00 PM
Nov 2013

And using nat gas as feedstock for methanol or ethanol?

And if we put gas into high compression turbo or supercharged engines, just to make that playing field level, whats the result?

poopfuel

(250 posts)
28. Engines more expensive? Sez who? The oil companies?
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:42 AM
Nov 2013

And I certainly don't approve of natural gas as "feedstock" for methanol and natural gas cannot make ethanol. Ethanol can only be made from carbohydrates.
You can optimize an engine for alcohol. Scania in Sweden does just that and has run buses and trucks on it.

Mind you, there is never a level playing field when oil companies are involved. Their tax breaks and handouts eclipse anything ethanol could ever get.

I just always assume people who hate ethanol like gasoline better. Hard not to feel that way. Why else would anyone spend so much time savaging ethanol, unless they had a very strong fondness for the s--t we put in our cars now?

Read the book I cited, then we can talk.

Response to poopfuel (Reply #28)

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
34. check the actual data. The MIT Ethanol Enabled Direct Injection engine is estimated to cost
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:27 PM
Nov 2013

about $1,000 to $1,500 more than the typical ICE http://www.ethanolboosting.com

Ethanol Turbo Boost For Gasoline Engines



Now what about CNG cars: Here's what I found on the Honda site. Presumably you can trust them to give you an accurate price.

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/price.aspx

2013(?) Honda Natural Gas Civic Sedan: Starting at $26,305


http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-sedan/price.aspx
Honda Civic Sedan: Starting at $18,165...

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
29. Natural gas vehicles deliver comparable mpge to gasoline. methanol and ethanol when used in an
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:26 PM
Nov 2013

engine optimized for these high octane fuels (which NG is not) get much BETTER miles per gallon than gasoline.


The Ethanol (or methanol) Enabled Direct Injection Engine designed by Cohn, Bromberg, and Heywood, of MIT, gets 25% to 30% better mpg than a gas powered ICE while using 5% ethanol and 95% gasoline.
Direct Injection Ethanol Boosted Gasoline Engines: Biofuel Leveraging For Cost Effective Reduction of Oil Dependence and CO2 Emissions

At a fuel economy of 1.3 times that of gasoline vs the .65 that Dept of Energy uses to compute a GHG emissions figure of .74 for ethanol (@ .65 the mpg of gasoline) the MIT designed Ethanol Enabled Direct Injection Engine would produce half (.37) the GHG emissions relative to gasoline as computed by Dept of Energy (assuming low compression engine). This would outperform the Nat Gas vehicle which Dept of Energy estimates as only achieving a 6% to 11% GHG reduction over gasoline.
......... The Ethanol Enabled Direct Injection Engine can use methanol as well as ethanol and get very comparable reductions of GHG (30% reduction vs gasoline). Note these reductions are based solely on the increased efficiency when using ethanol or methanol over a gasoline only engine.

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/natural_gas_emissions.html

"Argonne National Laboratory's GREET model estimates the life cycle petroleum use and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions of light-duty vehicles running on compressed natural gas (CNG) and liquefied natural gas (LNG). Based on this model, natural gas emits approximately 6% to 11% lower levels of GHGs than gasoline throughout the fuel life cycle."


As stated before, adopting natural gas vehicles involves considerable investments in facililties for safely distributing Compressed Natural GAs and in building cars that run on CNG. Honda sells a CNG Civic which goes for about $9,000 - $10,000 more than the gasoline powered Civic.

CRH

(1,553 posts)
25. Have it your way Bill, ...
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 08:14 AM
Nov 2013

wish you luck selling biofuels as a solution to reducing carbon. The biofuel meme, only allows people to continue the unsustainable lifestyle that has helped create the problem, while perpetrating an illusion of addressing the atmospheric carbon dilemma.

A change of lifestyle for first and second world societies has nothing to do with religion, and little to do with philosophy. It does address cause and effect relationships that govern the climate we will pass on to the future. Nature does not judge or promote, nature reacts.

As you drive off into the future, don't forget to keep your wind screen clean. You might be in need of clear vision.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
30. give me a timeframe for the changes... 30, 100, 200 yrs? You are taking a religious (non rational)
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 07:05 PM
Nov 2013

Last edited Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:28 PM - Edit history (1)

approach or superstitious approach when you are unable to admit or refuse to see that renewable fuels replacing fossil fuels stops the additions to atmospheric carbon that fossil fuels would produce.

GIVE ME A BETTER ALTERNATIVE IF YOU CAN - AND LEAVE OUT FATALISM.

I also said (did you experience hysterical blindness?) we need to subsidize mass transit to also reduce fossil fuel consumption and continue investing in hybrids and electric cars (PHEVs) (it should be noted that hybrids and PHEVs do NOT HAVE NEGATIVE EMISSIONS. They produce reductions in additions to GHGs that same way renewable fuels do - BY PREVENTING FOSSIL FUEL COMBUSTION FROM ADDING TO THE GHGS IN THE ATMOSPHERE) . But thinking that all we have to do is wait for hybrids and electrics to give us a 10% to 13% reduction in the growth of GHG emissions from light transportation use of fossil fuels won't be enough.

[font size="3"] Waiting for human society to devolve back to a pre-industrial, pre-scientific state is a hysterical (religious) reaction which interests me not. Being a practical sort of person, I have never found the religion very appealing as an approach to deal with problems.[/font]


the 'attacks' you refer to (criticism of Searchinger) I did not create. I only read the criticisms of the Dept of energy, Michael Wang of the Argonne National Laboratory (creator to the GREET model -- which no doubt you no nothing of) and many qualified scientists and environmental economists from Government and academia.

Others might be interested to know that Timothy Searchinger when he co-authored the (now recognized as methodologically fraudulent) 'study' of ethanol's GHG profile, worked at University of California Berkeley which a couple of years previously had recieved a $100 million grant (mostly from EXXON- Mobil). The unusual thing about the grant is that EXXON had a rather large string attached to the grant - that EXXON-Mobil have a seat on the board which decided which studies would be funded by said grant. This was UNPREDENTED in public university grants funding of research.


Here's a little bit for thos who are interested. In Searchinger's 'study' of ethanol's GHG emissions - he used a quantity of ethanol to compute ethanol's GHG emissions which was DOUBLE THE QUANTITY OF GALLONS OF ETHANOL THAT THE GOVERNMENT LIMITED ETHANOL PRODUCTION FROM CORN TO.

.. ALSO he recieved (and the journal publishing the study results) heavy criticism BECAUSE NOT ALL THE DATA NEEDED TO CHECK THIER RESULTS WAS MADE AVAILABLE TO OTHER RESEARCHERS. THIS IS INCREDIBLE AND CLEARLY A SUSPICIOUSLY FRAUDULENT WAY OF PUTTING FORTH A STUDY'S RESULTS. No real scientist or researcher would ever put out a study without making ALL the supporting data that was used available for other researchers to examine. PUBLISHING A STUDY MEANS MAKING ALL THE RELEVANT DATA AVAILABLE TO OTHER RESEARCHERS.



... just letting AGW proceed in its acceleration is just fatalism. Unless you can come up with something better than that you will not be taken seriously.





Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
17. I see the article you refer to is by Timothy Searchinger. No sensible person would waste his time
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 09:25 PM
Nov 2013

reading anything this fraud has produced. TS, is not a trained researcher in environmental sciences, (he is an attorney and sortof 'self' taught when it comes to environmental analysis) and has been shown- by a number of actual, qualified researchers to be a fraud ... andor an idiot.

for example TS said making ethanol from corn would cause increased deforestation in the rainforests (particularly brazilian Rf) around the world. Ethanol production has increased greatly since 2004, meanwhile the rate of deforestation of the Brazilian raiforest has gone down 80% since 2004.



CRH

(1,553 posts)
26. Spoken like a true supporter of biofuels, ...
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:12 AM
Nov 2013

with the very same attacks sited by the NFA, New Fuels Alliance, and other biofuel industry supporters.

Don't forget to dismiss ILUC, indirect land use change, as the NFA has consistently tried to influence in fuel standard policies, since the controversy started after Searchinger's 2008 papers.

Your critique is a lot like asking Monsanto if RoundUp is good for agriculture.

It should be noted since the controversy began, ILUC has been include in CARB, California Air Resource Board studies as well as adoption by EPA fuel standards. Searchingers has his critics, and supporters, but few dismiss him as a 'fraud or idiot'.

It does appear you have an agenda, and perhaps a vested interest, as well.

As you drive into the future, keep your wind screen clean. You might need it for a clear vision.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
32. ILUCs are entirely hypothetical, entirely lacking any empirical validation.
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:08 PM
Nov 2013

Searchinger's study concluded ethanol production from corn in the U.S. would inevitably cause deforestation to accelerate in the Rainforests of the world. From 2004 to 2012 ethanol production increased almost fourfold deforestation of the Amazon rainforest DECREASED ~80%. Critics of TS's simplisitic reasoning had always asserted that it was not a simple connection, if any, between ethanol production and land use changes in the Brazil or the Amazon.

[link: http://www.mongabay.com/brazil.html|Deforestation in the Amazon - Mongabay]
http://www.mongabay.com/brazil.html


[font size="3"]"Since 2004 the rate of deforestation in the Brazilian Amazon has fallen nearly 80 percent to the lowest levels recorded since annual record keeping began in the late 1980s."[/font]




the 'attacks' you refer to (criticism of Searchinger) I did not create. I only read the criticisms of the Dept of Energy, Michael Wang of the Argonne National Laboratory (creator to the GREET model -- which no doubt you know nothing of) , of Oak Ridge National Laboratory (Kline and Dale) and other qualified scientists, researchers and environmental economists from Government and academia.

.... Now, to be sure, when you are speaking for a Government agency, or a university the administrations of both entities ABHOR controversy, and review everything you publish and that is for public consumption. Therefor, the administrations of such entities do NOT ALLOW anybody to say somebody is a 'fraud' or the like. However, the misuse/missapplication of data, the wild, unsupported assumptions used by T.S. etal in his study on ethanol GHG emissions - in particular ILUCs leaves no doubt as to the veracity and validity of his 'conclusions'. No people writing and speaking for the Dept of Energy, or the Argonne National Laboratory can - for political (small 'p') reasons - come right out and say somebody is a fraud but when you read the points they raise in their criticisms such a conclusion is obvious and unavoidable.


Here's a little bit, for those who are interested, in Searchinger's 'study' of ethanol's GHG emissions - he used a quantity of ethanol to compute ethanol's GHG emissions which was DOUBLE THE QUANTITY OF GALLONS OF ETHANOL THAT THE GOVERNMENT LIMITED ETHANOL PRODUCTION TO FROM CORN. NOW, DOES THAT SOUND LEGITIMATE? OR LIKE FRAUDULENT METHODOLOGY?

.. ALSO he recieved (and the journal publishing the study results) heavy criticism BECAUSE NOT ALL THE DATA NEEDED TO CHECK THIER RESULTS WAS MADE AVAILABLE TO OTHER RESEARCHERS. THIS IS INCREDIBLE AND CLEARLY A SUSPICIOUSLY FRAUDULENT WAY OF PUTTING FORTH A STUDY'S RESULTS. No real scientist or researcher would ever put out a study without making ALL the supporting data that was used available for other researchers to examine. PUBLISHING A STUDY MEANS MAKING ALL THE RELEVANT DATA AVAILABLE TO OTHER RESEARCHERS.


Here is what the Dept of Energy had to say re TS's assertions re corn ethanol's ILUC:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/bioenergy/pdfs/obp_science_response_web.pdf

DOE Response based on contributions from Office of Biomass Program; Argonne National Lab, National Renewable Energy Lab, Oak Ridge National Lab, Pacific Northwest National Lab; USDA

Recently, the issue of greenhouse gas emissions resulting from indirect land use change has been a topic of much media attention and public debate. There is very little peer-reviewed literature on the role of biofuels in this relationship between biofuel production and land use change. Fortunately, researchers around the world are working to understand these issues better through detailed modeling and technical analysis.
The debate surrounding the impact of biofuel production on land use patterns was sparked by two studies in ScienceExpress—an advance web version of Science Magazine. These studies focused on the impact of biofuel production on land use patterns and the associated GHG emissions implications.

As some of the first peer-reviewed studies on the topic, they require much further work, refining assumptions, improving datasets, and strengthening of the models used. In addition, these two studies neglect to account for local forces behind land use change which some experts state are by far the primary drivers of deforestation. It is reasonable to expect that rigorous, peer-reviewed, science-based land use models will show that indirect land use change impacts of biofuels production are far smaller than these articles suggest.

The Searchinger study ("Use of US Croplands for Biofuels Increases Greenhouse Gases through Emissions from Land Use Change&quot claims that biofuels production in the US, whether by corn or switchgrass, will trigger harmful land use changes elsewhere, in response to higher agricultural commodity prices, and thereby lead to huge GHG increases initially. The study claims that no greenhouse gas benefits will occur for the first 167 years of corn ethanol production.

[font size="3"]The Searchinger study contains some unrealistic assumptions and obsolete data. The key issues are as follows:

The study assumes a corn ethanol production scenario of 30 billion gallons per year by 2015,[font color='red'] which is double the amount established by EISA [/font](see Figure 1). To meet the new RFS, after 15 billion gallons, biofuels must come from feedstocks other than grain, and primarily be produced from cellulosic feedstocks, such as agricultural wastes and forest residues.

The study relies on a worst-case scenario by assuming that land use and deforestation in 2015 will mirror that which occurred in the 1990s. Better land management practices and avoided deforestation credits, if adopted, could reduce deforestation rates. In fact, deforestation rates have slowed down over the past decade.

The assumption that corn exports will decline by 62 percent is contradicted by historical trends. As Figure 2 shows, U.S. corn exports have remained fairly constant at around 2 billion bushels per year throughout the entire growth phase of the ethanol industry. Specifically, the 2007 exports represent a 14% increase compared to 2006 level, while US corn ethanol production has reached close to six billion gallons that same year.

The premise that dramatic land use will result from U.S. corn ethanol use production is flawed. US corn production for food and feed has increased by 1 percent per year for the past two decades. Moreover, Figure 3 shows the increase in protein-rich U.S. Distiller Dry Grains (DDGS) exports, which are growing significantly as U.S. corn ethanol production expands. DDGS export growth will be a growing contributor to the global food supply.2

One scenario analyzed in the study incorrectly assumes the conversion of US corn cropland to switchgrass. No farmer would convert corn acreage to switchgrass as the value of corn will most likely exceed that of a non-food crop. Furthermore, a DOE/Oak Ridge National Laboratory study found that more than 1 billion tons of biomass resources are available in this country (Figure 4) without displacing corn cropland.

1 Facilities built before December 2007 are exempt from GHG reduction requirements. Future corn-starch ethanol will have to meet a GHG reduction of 20%.
2 DDGS can partially replace the nutrient value of corn as animal feed. However, they are not directly interchangeable and some modifications to feed rations are needed



There have been other criticisms made of TS's Ethanol GHG study which are much more pointed but they came from outside the United States -presumably where Big Oil's money and funding influence can be considered to be less significant.

BTW the amount of ILUC (unsuppported by empirical evidence) added to Ethanol's GHG emissions by the Dept of Energy is about 1/10 the figure computed by Searchinger et al.


Others might be interested to know, as some interesting background,... that Timothy Searchinger, when he co-authored the 'study' of ethanol's GHG profile, worked at University of California Berkeley which not long before TS's study was published, had received a $100 million grant (mostly from EXXON- Mobil). The highly unusual thing about the grant is that EXXON had a rather large 'string' attached to the grant - EXXON-Mobil required that they have a seat on the board which decided which studies would be funded by said grant. This was UNPRECEDENTED in public university grants funding of research.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
33. it is important to note that there is NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that corn ethanol production causes
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:19 PM
Nov 2013

deforestation in rainforests. IF we were using the scientific method in evaluating ethanol's impact on ILUC we would not be able to ignore the total LACK OF SUPPORTING EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE FOR SUCH A HYPOTHESIS.




Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
36. the fact that you cannot or will not see the difference between renewable fuels and fossil fuels
Wed Nov 13, 2013, 09:20 PM
Nov 2013

and cannot or will not see that there is a difference in their affects on GHGs in the atmosphere shows you refuse to be deal with reality.

If one wants to do something to rein in or slow AGW you have to do something other than just hoping for society to devolve back to a preindustrial and pre-scientific state. This kind of thinking is utter nonsense.

do you think we can all learn to get around - in the next few years - like Peter Pan??


[font size="3"] Until you have something to say that is sensible, practical and that shows you are ready to deal with reality, please just mumble your inanities to yourself and do not interject nonsensical comments into threads meant for grownups.[/font]

hunter

(38,311 posts)
11. I openly despise our automobile highway culture.
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 10:26 PM
Nov 2013

It will be a good day when it dies.

Feet, bicycles, electric rail, and high-tech sailing ships are plenty good enough.

The most common form of transportation ought to be feet, the second most electric wheels and legs for those who cannot walk.

Next, bicycles.

Every other higher energy form of transportation, but for emergency services, SUCKS.


hunter

(38,311 posts)
22. Many "three car garage" suburbs could easily be converted into very pleasant "walkable" communities.
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 11:34 PM
Nov 2013

The garages of the houses on the corners and busier streets might be transformed into small shops, workshops, restaurants, and pubs, and on less busy streets apartments for young people just starting out and the elderly on "fixed" incomes.

My wife and I have been lucky, we've dodged the commuter lifestyle for more than a quarter century now. When we met we were Los Angeles commuters. I always had to leave for work an hour early and I often got home an hour after work after a hell-on-the-freeways hour long commute of less than twenty miles.

A quarter century not commuting is a lot of life not wasted tweaking a car's steering wheel.

Even riding a bus, train, or streetcar to work is better than driving your own automobile. You can close your eyes, you can read, you can chat with the random stranger sitting next to you, you can stare out the window and daydream. Any of these things are better than driving a car dodging random idiots on the road fearing for your life, even when that fear has been sublimated deep, deep within your subconscious mind.

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