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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Sat May 19, 2012, 02:43 PM May 2012

How Low Can the Price of Wind Go?

"The learning curve theory contradiction, they found, is that “the largest single impact -- from scaling -- brings LCOE benefits.” Large-scale turbines allow wind projects to perform better. This “tradeoff between capital cost and performance” means that “LCOE is likely a better indicator of ‘technology learning’ than is capital cost,” the researchers reasoned."





How Low Can the Price of Wind Go?
Like solar, wind’s LCOE now meets and beats fossil fuels.

HERMAN K. TRABISH: DECEMBER 29, 2011

A recent study of solar found that a properly calculated levelized cost of electricity (LCOE) is now competitive, and an LCOE presentation by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (LBNL) researchers confirmed that wind is now at $33 to $65 per megawatt-hour and falling.

As with solar, the key to the accurate price of wind is reconciling numbers with facts. Learning curve theory, said LBNL researcher Mark Bolinger, predicts that wind price should have dropped 20 percent to 30 percent as installed capacity doubled twice between 2002 and 2008. But turbine cost, which is 50 percent to 60 percent of LCOE and 60 percent to 70 percent of project cost, doubled.

To understand this phenomenon, Bolinger and fellow LBNL researcher Ryan Wiser studied the four endogenous factors (labor costs, warranty provisions, profitability, turbine design/scaling) and three exogenous factors (raw materials prices, energy prices, foreign exchange rates) that determine turbine price.

It is a detailed study....


The learning curve theory contradiction, they found, is that “the largest single impact -- from scaling -- brings LCOE benefits.” Large-scale turbines allow wind projects to perform better. This “tradeoff between capital cost and performance” means that “LCOE is likely a better indicator of ‘technology learning’ than is capital cost,” the researchers reasoned...


More at: http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/how-low-can-the-price-of-wind-go/


This link downloads the PDF of the study 'Understanding Trends in Wind Turbine Prices Over the Past Decade' by
Mark Bolinger and Ryan Wiser:
http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/ems/reports/lbnl-5119e.pdf
13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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How Low Can the Price of Wind Go? (Original Post) kristopher May 2012 OP
GE & Vesta IIRC are looking to develop 15-16Mw turbines FogerRox May 2012 #1
You're right, under $0.07 /kwh is very nice. kristopher May 2012 #2
My bad, I was talking only about offshore turbines FogerRox May 2012 #3
Actually I'm the one that wasn't clear kristopher May 2012 #4
I was thinking of the GE offshore model, its 4mw. Anyway under 7 cents per Kh is insane FogerRox May 2012 #11
kristopher: OT, please provide your best middle-school friendly proof of true cost of nukes. NYC_SKP May 2012 #5
Because of the complexity that's a tall order. kristopher May 2012 #6
Maybe this will work kristopher May 2012 #7
Thanks, kristopher, and others.... NYC_SKP May 2012 #10
See post 7. kristopher May 2012 #8
This is a bit old (2004) but helpful (in my opinion) OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #9
Kickin for goodness FogerRox Jun 2012 #12
kickin FogerRox Dec 2012 #13

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
1. GE & Vesta IIRC are looking to develop 15-16Mw turbines
Sat May 19, 2012, 04:33 PM
May 2012

If the output goes up 3 times, and cost doubles, sounds like a large drop in price to generate.

IIRC last year GE got a $3 million grant from the DOE to study MRI type mag tech and composites, in an effort to reach 15Mw. Currently GE's offshore turbine is a 4Mw model.

Under 7 cents per KW hr is real nice. Nice find.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
2. You're right, under $0.07 /kwh is very nice.
Sat May 19, 2012, 05:05 PM
May 2012

The study is based on terrestrial wind installations where there are important problems with the transportation logistics of building turbines that are larger than 4MW. This might be overcome, but it is going to be related to some improvements in wind policy that makes investing in the fleets of larger specialty vehicles a safe financial proposition.

The study was based on actual transactions, and the typical onshore turbine going up right now (2012) is about 2MW. All of the larger ones that we are gearing up to make are going to be offshore and will come with their own set of economics and a completely different learning curve.

3.4 Increasing Turbine Size and Energy Capture
The average nameplate capacity of wind turbines installed in the U.S. doubled over the period of interest, from just under 0.9 MW in 2001/2002 to nearly 1.8 MW in 2010 (Figure 6). Along with this doubling in capacity, the average turbine hub height and rotor diameter also increased: hub height by one-third (from just under 60 meters to 80 meters) and rotor diameter by nearly two- thirds (from just over 50 meters to nearly 85 meters). Because mass scales more rapidly than height or length – e.g., taller towers are not only taller, but also need to be wider and thicker (and therefore heavier) to support the extra height – the rapid growth in turbine size has also impacted wind turbine prices on a $/kW basis. The fact that the capital cost of turbines can increase with size is widely understood (e.g., Dinica 2011, EWEA 2009), but the advantages in terms of lower balance of plant costs and higher levels of energy production typically outweigh those turbine price increases.




FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
3. My bad, I was talking only about offshore turbines
Sun May 20, 2012, 12:30 AM
May 2012

GE's 4Mw model is their offshore model.

And even then that requires a special design install ship to handle 450 ft towers & 150 ft tripod bases anchored to the sea bottom.

3.3 to 6.5 cents per KwH is insane. :~ )

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
4. Actually I'm the one that wasn't clear
Tue May 22, 2012, 04:27 PM
May 2012

The use of 4MW by both of us is coincidence. A recently read an article in a the trade pub North American Wind Power that discussed transportation logistics and it mentioned the 4MW limit.

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
11. I was thinking of the GE offshore model, its 4mw. Anyway under 7 cents per Kh is insane
Thu May 24, 2012, 06:11 PM
May 2012

Transportation and logistics RE: Atlantic Wind Connection, I'm guessing all the towers and bases will be made in east coast foundries in east coast ports, then transferred to the install ship.

The idea that GE would make a 450 ft tower in India, and then trans-ship it to the east coast is nuts. I think a special use ship would have to be built with a 500 ft hold to accomodate the 450 ft towers. Then you need fuel to power the ship to the EAst coast.


At least in my mind it make great sense to build those large components locally, near where they'll be installed, which means job creation in the US.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
5. kristopher: OT, please provide your best middle-school friendly proof of true cost of nukes.
Tue May 22, 2012, 09:32 PM
May 2012

seriously, because I watched a semester-end presentation by a bright young student who described nuclear power as cheap.

She's an idealist, wants to build H2 cars and be part of the green revolution, but I don't have anything handy and reliable that is at her reading level.

TIA.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
7. Maybe this will work
Wed May 23, 2012, 10:37 AM
May 2012

If she is eager to learn, she can probably work out enough on her own to get a decent idea of way the problem is analyzed. The source doesn't include external costs like risk transfer or a full accounting of the environmental consequences across the full fuel cycle; it is strictly the work of an accountant working out a comprehensive estimate of the range of probably costs associated with nuclear new build in the US.

It would also be good to explain what is behind references to how inexpensive energy from the present nuclear fleet is. Those electricity costs could be likened to the use you get out of a car after it is paid off - and it comes with the same sort of increased probability of failure.

The paper is: ' Business Risks and Costs of New Nuclear Power' by raig A. Severance, a practicing CPA with relevant expertise in the energy area.

A write up and link to download the paper is here:
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2009/01/05/202859/study-cost-risks-new-nuclear-power-plants/


Key points are here, with the rest of the paper functioning to explain and put these items in perspective.


























Building a fuel cell car sounds like a pretty ambitious project given the costs involved but it is certainly a commendable goal.

The use of hydrogen for transportation does, however, provide a point of entry for a discussion on the overall approach to energy use and the roll of energy efficiency not only at the point of end use consumption, but also in the way the larger 'energy to work' system is designed. In this case, there is a substantial penalty efficiency penalty associated with H2 for personal transportation that, given present technologies, would require at least 60% more noncarbon energy generating infrastructure to be built than would battery electric. There are, of course, offsetting advantages for fuel cells, but from a system perspective the technology we choose makes a very significant difference; and that is true in many areas.


Hope this helps.
 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
10. Thanks, kristopher, and others....
Wed May 23, 2012, 05:45 PM
May 2012

She's very sharp and idealistic, she'll stay with the program even after she realizes that nukes are among many technologies that over-promise and which aren't sustainable.

Many thanks!

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
9. This is a bit old (2004) but helpful (in my opinion)
Wed May 23, 2012, 05:39 PM
May 2012
http://nuclear.energy.gov/np2010/reports/NuclIndustryStudy-Summary.pdf
[font face=Serif][font size=5]THE ECONOMIC FUTURE OF NUCLEAR POWER[/font]

[font size=4]A Study Conducted at The University of Chicago

August 2004[/font]

[font size=3]…

ABSTRACT

Developments in the U.S. economy that will affect the nuclear power industry in coming years include the emergence of new nuclear technologies, waste disposal issues, proliferation concerns, the streamlining of nuclear regulation, a possible transition to a hydrogen economy, policies toward national energy security, and environmental policy. These developments will affect both the competitiveness of nuclear power and appropriate nuclear energy policies. A financial model developed in this study projects that, in the absence of federal financial policies aimed at the nuclear industry, the first new nuclear plants coming on line will have a levelized cost of electricity (LCOE, i.e., the price required to cover operating and capital costs) that ranges from $47 to $71 per megawatt-hour (MWh). This price range exceeds projections of $33 to $41 for coal-fired plants and $35 to $45 for gas-fired plants. After engineering costs are paid and construction of the first few nuclear plants has been completed, there is a good prospect that lower nuclear LCOEs can be achieved and that these lower costs would allow nuclear energy to be competitive in the marketplace. Federal financial policies that could help make early nuclear plants more competitive include loan guarantees, accelerated depreciation, investment tax credits, and production tax credits. In the long term, the competitiveness of nuclear power could be further enhanced by rising concerns about greenhouse gas emissions from fossil-fuel power generation.



Summary of Economic Findings
Economics of Deploying Plants during the Next Decade
  • Capital cost is the single most important factor determining the economic competitiveness of nuclear energy.
  • First-of-a-kind engineering (FOAKE) costs for new nuclear designs could increase capital costs by 35 percent, adversely affecting nuclear energy’s competitiveness.
  • The risk premium paid to bond and equity holders for financing new nuclear plants is an influential factor in the economic competitiveness of nuclear energy. A 3 percent risk premium on bonds and equity is estimated to be appropriate for the first few new plants.
  • Without federal financial policy assistance, new nuclear plants coming on line in the next decade are projected to have a levelized cost of electricity (LCOE) of $47 to $71 per megawatt-hour (MWh). This study provides a full range of LCOEs for first nuclear plants for alternative construction periods, plant lives, capacity factors, and overnight cost estimates. LCOEs for coal- and gas-fired electricity are estimated to be $33 to $41 per MWh and $35 to $45 per MWh, respectively.
  • With assistance in the form of loan guarantees, accelerated depreciation, investment tax credits, and production tax credits, new nuclear plants could become more competitive, with LCOEs reaching $32 to $50 per MWh.

Economics of Deploying the Next Series of Nuclear Plants
  • With the benefit of the experience from the first few plants, LCOEs are expected to fall to the range of $31 to $46 per MWh; no continued financial assistance is required at this level.

Future Greenhouse Gas Policies
  • If stringent greenhouse policies are implemented and advances in carbon capture and sequestration prove less effective than hoped, coal-fired electricity’s LCOE could rise as high as $91 per MWh and gas-fired electricity’s LCOE could rise as high as $68 per MWh. These LCOEs would fully assure the competitiveness of nuclear energy.
…[/font][/font]


So (my summary) a somewhat optimistic analysis suggests that with sufficient government assistance next generation reactors might be competitive with fossil fuel plants.
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