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Sun Oct 7, 2018, 04:45 PM

how much of the stock market is a ponzi scheme?

now much is insider trading? how much manipulation or just old fashioned salesmanship? how much is fraud perpetrated by and upon fund managers?

how much has anything to do with the stated purpose of providing capital to allow production of products and services to meet consumer demand?

do you think that retired americans can depend upon stock based investments to replace social security.

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Response to rampartc (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 04:51 PM

1. The whole damn thing.

There is no replacement for SS.

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Response to democratisphere (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 04:57 PM

3. i don't trust wall st with my money.

they need a lot more regulation before i trust them, and then i don't trust them.

democrats need to take a clear unambiguous stand on this.

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Response to rampartc (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 05:31 PM

11. 2008 was only a hint of what is now and what is to come.

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Response to rampartc (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 04:53 PM

2. Essentially all of it.

 

For example, NO money is raised for companies by stock sold on the market after the initial IPO. It all goes to the holders/sellers of the shares.

And NO WAY can the market replace social security. The whole idea is a right-wing / Wall St. wet dream. Remember the guy who was asked why he robbed banks? He replied, "that's where the money is."

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Response to shanny (Reply #2)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 05:03 PM

5. i think the bank robber was willie keeler

conservatives have twisted social security until theur base thinks it is the ponzu scheme, ans they would all be rich if that luttle amount was not deducted from their paychecks.

maybe that belongs in the propaganda sebunkung group ....

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Response to rampartc (Reply #5)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 05:18 PM

10. bank robber sounds right--I couldn't remember the name

 

But I think the conservative base loves social security....unless it gets paid to the wrong people (i.e. someone else). They have bought the lie that it is running out of money. We did experience a certain amount of luck (sorta) on the issue 10 years ago: the pukes wanted to privatize SS and since the stock market only goes up it seemed to make sense....until the stock market stopped going up and crashed instead. That put a damper on the whole movement.

It is a reflection of our corporate media that anyone thinks the market is a reliable indicator of the health of the economy.

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Response to rampartc (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 05:00 PM

4. All of it. Only fools, like all Republican politicians : ) think that

Americans can depend upon stock based investments to replace social security.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #4)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 05:05 PM

6. the 1929 crash is the reason social security exists

recessuins happen on a regular basis.

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Response to rampartc (Reply #6)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 05:07 PM

7. Yes it was. I laugh when TV idiot heads are so excited the stock market is

doing sooo goood!

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Response to Autumn (Reply #7)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 05:10 PM

8. don't get me wrong, i own stock

and have a 401k, but to depend on that in my old age would be frightful.

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Response to rampartc (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 05:17 PM

9. So do I, lost about half my 401K in 08. To depend on either of those would

indeed be frightful.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #7)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 05:33 PM

12. Doing "well" one day and "going to hell" the next.

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Response to rampartc (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 05:37 PM

13. It's not perfect, but not nearly as bad as others are suggesting

Outright fraud in actual underlying investments like Enron or theranos is rare. Obviously it happens -- those are two examples -- but generally it's hard to pull off given the scrutiny in this country (even though republicans keep trying to reduce such scrutiny.)

Fraud by investment managers is similarly rare, though it adds another layer of such risk. It's crucial to use investment managers who are properly licensed and disclose properly and are properly audited.

Most ipos and subsequent issuances are genuinely used for proper business, but the overwhelming majority of actual trading has little to do with actual fund-raising by businesses. Of course, the business enterprise may still be quite risky and speculative even if there's no fraud. No businesses can still be a crap shoot even if the founders are sincere in their hopes.


Having said all this, the stock market is completely inappropriate for social security. Social security is meant to provide a minimum income even in (especially in) disaster scenarios. Those are exactly the scenarios that would crush a stock market. So when it really matters, it's a terrible investment.

Stock market is best to maximize expected returns over the long term. But that's not meant to be the goal of social security. The goal there is to minimize the likelihood of failing to meet the minimum payouts. Investing in the stock market actually maximizes this likelihood due to its high variance.

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Response to rampartc (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 05:59 PM

14. Inflation is bad we are told...

...too much money chasing too few goods, rising prices, inflation, is bad we are are told.

However, in the stock market, rising prices are lauded. More money chasing fewer goods and doing no actual productive work, after the initial offering.

Just rich people encouraging lesser rich people to buy and sell ownership of the hammer used by labor to create actual value.

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Response to sanatanadharma (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 01:26 PM

16. Yup,

When I see that the stock market is up, I know the handful of uber rich royal families in the US are happy. When it is down they are are nervous.

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Response to rampartc (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2018, 07:01 PM

15. its all a CASINO. 401k's are bullshit. it was a wall street protection scheme.

i stick to my 401ebay. gleen & purge.

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