Pornstars are psychologically as healthy as other women?

[caseymoz]

I'm not saying it's true, I'm just pointing out that's what a study has found. And it's reported not in some third-rate publication either.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/porn-stars-and-the-naked-truth-8348388.html

It is just one study. However, it does make this note:

"Some descriptions of actresses in pornography have included attributes such as drug addiction, homelessness, poverty, desperation and being victims of sexual abuse," they said. "Some have made extreme assertions, such as claiming that all women in pornography were sexually abused as children. Stereotypes of those involved in adult entertainment have been used to support or condemn the industry and to justify political views on pornography, although the actual characteristics of actresses are unknown because no study on this group of women has been conducted."

Basing your judgment on one study is better than basing it on zero.

[Warren DeMontague]

1. ***

[SoapBox]

2. ...

[4th law of robotics]

3. I'm glad someone did the study. There have been a lot

of assumptions about pornstars being thrown around as if they were facts by certain religious nuts and their radfem supporters on the left.

None of them thought it necessary to actually talk to the people they are supposedly fighting for.

[caseymoz]

4. A few other interesting details:

"One of the main claims by commentators on the industry has been that actresses have frequently experienced sexual abuse in childhood, but the results show no statistically significant difference between the two groups of women."

No significant difference between sexual abuse in childhood between the two groups of women. That's one I would have predicted. It's funny how many anti-porn crusaders willingly share the fact that they were abused. But thank goodness, it didn't effect their mind the way it did sex workers, right?

However there were a few differences between pornstars and the control group:

". . . they had first had sex at a lower age: 15 rather than 17. On the negative side, industry workers had a history of more drug and alcohol use, and problems possibly linked to sensation-seeking personalities."

I'm proud to say, I would have predicted these, too.

Then, at the end we have the feminist Dawn Foster commenting, "The study's main objective seems to be to prove that not all women in porn are exploited: no one has argued that."

Ms. Foster, what do you have in your ears? That's exactly what some people have argued.

[Major Nikon]

5. Surely nobody would argue that all or even most are

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12557284

[caseymoz]

6. Seems from the survey that about 4 in 10 do.

At least of people interested enough to answer the survey. I'll admit, a survey size of nine doesn't mean much, except to prove that some would say all porn stars are exploited victims.

[4th law of robotics]

7. Dawn isn't very bright

People have made that claim and that doesn't seem to be the purpose of this study.

Also she's discounting it because she doesn't like the conclusion not because she had conflicting data.

Disturbing how angry people get upon hearing that others *aren't* being abused as they'd hoped. They claim to care about the plight of porn workers then get upset when those workers turn your to be doing ok on their own.

[caseymoz]

12. A classic straw man, too.

The study doesn't imply that many are, or some are exploited. It says that, taking known measures of psychological health, you can't see that porn stars are less healthy than other women, and might arguably be more healthy. Also, they're not abused any more than other women.

No, it seems the main reason they go into it, besides the money, is that casual sex and exhibitionism really don't bother them. That difference seems to be hard to comprehend for many women, many people in fact.

[Warren DeMontague]

8. The thing is, like the "war on drugs", the simple truth is that the so-called war on porn is over.

The porn won.

[caseymoz]

9. Not if sex workers are treated as 3rd class citizens.

Then, no, the war isn't won. It's just become an asymmetric conflict. A guerrilla war. Or something like the Jim Crow stage of the Civil War.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. Couple things- one, i agree with you: ALL workers deserve protection. However, as with other

Last edited Tue Nov 27, 2012, 02:22 PM - Edit history (1)

Content industries, adult entertinment such as it is is experiencing a dislocation due to the internet. "Porn" is just as likely to be something done by exhibitionist amteurs for free as anything else.. So "porn worker" sort of becomes like "youtube actor" in that case.

That said, I think this is an important article. My point had more to do with the idea that anyone is ever going to get rid of it.

[caseymoz]

11. Yes, a lot of porn now is from webcams.

Where there's absolutely no "industry" involved, usually solo shows no male present for the "exploitation." Patrons tip with tokens bought on the site that the stars redeem for cash, with the site, of course, taking a cut. But they're not involved in management, except in making sure the TOS are followed. If a client gets rude, the performer can ban him herself.

Some of these shows are no more than the woman getting dressed for the morning. I mean, why not run it? Somebody might tip.

It's hard to argue that males are pushing women into any of that, other than by having money available.

[Upton]

13. Porn stars on TMZ live talking about this very study..

(24:10) Another TMZ Live first -- we get double-teamed by two hot porn stars -- Dana DeArmond and Bailey Blue! They join us to bust myths about adult entertainers ... such as they're all sexually abused growing up

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2012/11/27/tmz-live-angus-t-jones-halle-berry-gabriel-aubry-olivier-martinez-justin-bieber/#ixzz2DWqrUcda

[caseymoz]

14. Well, it's still only one study

But the these initial findings are intriguing.

I'm not going to listen to 24 minutes of TMZ just to get to the pornstars' reactions.

[Upton]

15. Sorry..I thought you could move it ahead..

anyway, both porn stars, Dana DeArmond and Bailey Blue, talked about how they made their own choices, love their work, have not been exploited, aren't drug addicts, etc.

In other words, they agreed with the study and knocked down most of the myths the anti porn radfems and fundies direct at the industry,..

[caseymoz]

16. It's what antiporn people won't listen to.

Or come up with excuses about.

[Warren DeMontague]

17. I am of the opinion that the attempts to vilify and outlaw porn make life more difficult for

these folks.

People- and they're becoming more and more the majority- who say "eh. Big deal" contribute to an environment that accepts, as opposed to shames, these peoples' life choices.

[opiate69]

19. ...

[Major Nikon]

20. Testing the water

[opiate69]

21. lol.. most likely, yup..

[liberal N proud]

26. That is too funny

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. I think that drug addiction and major psychological problems are a barrier to any career.

In other words, asking stonemasons, nurses, insurance adjusters and porn stars about their psychological health neglects the out of work or unemployable "stonemasons" "nurses" "insurance adjusters" and "porn stars"

It isn't that porn stars tend to be psychologically healthy, it's that psychologically unhealthy individuals don't make it as porn stars.

It's like this; if you want to poll the psychological health of athletes, a more nuanced answer will be obtained by asking more than just those present in the winning team's locker room at the Super Bowl.

[caseymoz]

23. But the standards for the study group

were that the women make at least one X-rated movie. That seems to set a really low standard for "success" if you can describe it like that. But that says nothing about how they found the women and got them to volunteer.

Objections to porn based on the porn stars being traumatized have always presumed that the ones at the top of their careers were damaged. At least this study counters that much. Unlike athletes, stonemasons, and all the other professions listed, generally people see porn performance as unskilled labor that any brain-damaged addict can do. I wouldn't go that far, but some people who've never had sex on camera before can become hits a month after they get into the business. Try that as a stonemason and a nurse. I'm not saying the work isn't hard. It just isn't skilled. Though, sexual skills might take you further for longer.

It's harder to wipe out in porn than it is in the other professions you name. You don't have a nine-to-five job, for one thing. Which is why sex work is attractive for people with drug problems.

I don't think sex workers have an addiction problem. I think addicts have a sex-work problem. I think the people who should never get into that business are the ones who are in because they're too crippled with a drug habit to do anything else, and sex work is the only thing that pays enough for the fix. Those are the people who are most likely to be in despite any moral or sexual aesthetic objections. They are the ones who commit the most risks, and the ones most likely to end traumatized and hating the general clientele.

Okay, though. It's not a bad objection you have. I'd just call this study preliminary You would have to test your hypothesis statistically before you could say it's anything but conjecture. You could check further into the study to find out if it were controlled for "dropouts."

However, that's not why I reported this. Personally, I'm just happy somebody, anybody, actually asked these women about themselves before reporting to the public, rather than relying on the stereotypes and prejudices that have dominated the discussion of porn. I think that's a step forward. I don't actually care what other studies find, as long as they actually study the porn stars and not the stereotypes, and are fair and don't tamper with the data.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. And it's silly for some to stigmatize the job- and then gasp in horror that there's a stigma.

I mean, one thing to do for people in that line of work is to de-stimgatize it. And I think that's happened significantly in recent years.

[caseymoz]

25. They still can't get charities to accept their donations.

You talk about insulting.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. Hey.. Whatever happened with Iceland's exciting proposal to ban all internet porn?

Gee, one would almost think that trial balloon didn't go over so well.

[TreasonousBastard]

28. And those problems don't exist in mainstream movies...

or, ummm, rock music?

No exploitation, drugs, alcohol, or abuse?

[caseymoz]

29. They do of course, but with sex workers

. . . the stereotype legitimizes the pariah status people give them just for being openly promiscuous. It gives the slut-shamers a way of saying that, no, it isn't the sex that bothers us, the sex they have is really just one symptom of a sickness. And then say, look, we're not judging them on their sex lives, we're showing pity because they're sick.

You don't have that perverse motivation connected to rock music. Over movies or rock music, people don't conceal what is really slut-shaming and harassment and then make those sound socially redeeming and even laudable.

[nomorenomore08]

31. Pop music has its fair share of slut-shaming - just look at some of the responses to Miley Cyrus.

Otherwise, though, I completely agree with you. Only authoritarians have anything to gain by reviling or pitying sex workers.

[caseymoz]

32. Anytime women are openly sexual

there's slut shaming. The authoritarians might benefit from it, but people of every class, of both sexes, and of every alignment commit it.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. Shit, some of the biggest drunks and coke fiends I've had the unfortunate pleasure of encountering

Have been accountants and stock brokers.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. It's uncanny how similar-sounding the arguments of the anti-porn and, say, anti-marijuana crowds are

It's like, abandon data and reason, prepare ye for an unending cavalcade of goofy anecdotal nonsense and spooky-sounding strawmen.

[caseymoz]

34. That's because they're both cases of hysteria. nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

35. You know, I would actually like to get into a full blown discussion of racism in porn

But I'm afraid hearing the actual position of the person proposing it is rampant would make my head spin.

I realize there was entendre there.....

[Warren DeMontague]

36. Part of the problem is the idea that there is some monolithic entity called "porn"

and usually what happens in these "discussions" is, the folks making the anti-argument, such as it is, latch onto the most egregious examples of whatever they're trying to find, and say "see! this is porn!"

Or else they're trying to argue that "porn" programs the fitzwardles of impressionable young mens' frimhammits into terrible contrortions of snizwafflery. Except, fact being, that the diverse media menu which is available (and isn't going away) now via our interconnected world, allows folks to find what they like, and some people seem to like snizwafflery. (Lest the inevitable derailment train try to go off the tracks at this point, please assume all the snizwafflery involves consenting adults).

No one, I would think, would try to argue that there isn't a lot of bad porn out there, a lot of stupid porn out there, and certainly some negative or racist porn out there as well. The same could be said for music. Good grief, there's a lot of bad music out there. But no one tries to make broad, ham-fisted general arguments about "music" (like "music" is bad!), do they?

They're capable of distinguishing, for instance, Mozart from Pavement from Frank Zappa from the Nuge.

So lacking a definition short of Potter Stewart's "I know it when I see it", what, then, is mainstream, readily available, legal "porn"?

Porn is still pictures or films of consenting adults, either naked or having sex. (personally, I do seem to prefer them to be physically attractive, but I'm funny that way) That's the broadest, most simple definition I think one can come up with, and when you cut through all the noise, that is what the people who have a problem with "porn" seem to have a problem with, first and primarily.

[opiate69]

37. The realization I've been coming around to is...

There are certain sectors of folks who have a pathological aversion to the male sexual response, and anything which is even remotely designed to appeal to said response is problematic. "Those pictures are fine, unless they're designed for men to jerk off to!!!"
Of course, many of those folk have suffered trauma, which was directly associated with a fucked up, illegal, abhorrent form of male sexuality/control, so a certain amount of empathy for any PTSD issues is warranted. But then, I think those same issues generally render them wholly incapable of having any kind of rational, healthy discussion on such topics as well.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. Yeah, pretty much.

But when you are talking about people who take their cues on human sexuality from Andrea Dworkin; whose celibate relationship with John Stoltenberg is held up as the ONLY model for a permissible M/F arrangement, who could only envision non-oppressive hetero sex if it did not involve an erect penis... I mean, clearly you're not talking about the mainstream of opinion.

I've expressed my speculation as to the larger biological (dare I say, "evo-psych&quot roots of some of this drive of some in small hunter-gatherer bands to control the general level of group sexual availability-- a drive which is totally not prepared for the wide-ranging, open, uncontrollable media rich modern information environment, much of that stubbornly uncontrollable information consisting of pictures of Aria Giovanni's boobs, even.

...the perpetual slow-mo shitfit over stuff like pictures of naked women on the internet, hot celebrities, what-have-you... it's old. It was old a long time ago. Now it's just like beating the horse's skeleton, there's not even much dead horse left anymore.


Off the subject, did I see on FB that you lost another pet? I'm sorry, man.

[opiate69]

39. Thanks.. yeah.. both of our dogs in a span of 14 days.. it's been rough.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. :(

[opiate69]

41. But, no.. Nobody's pathologizing male sexual response... No Sir-eeee..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4061040

Not to mention, all the wailing and gnashing of teeth in that thread about men "whacking off"...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

42. I've actually been "insulted" several times via PM about "wanking off"

It's really amazing what goes on in people's heads.

[opiate69]

43. yeah.. nothing "stalker-y" in that, eh??

Sometimes I wonder about this place...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

44. LOL

Unfortunately, I just peeped into that thread via your link, and no shock, found said stalker in the middle of it!(It was not the person you quoted)

[opiate69]

45. Lol. Like flies to honey, dude.

[Major Nikon]

46. Here's a series of PMs I got from said stalker...

This was after the aforementioned poster got locked out of a thread. I wasn't the one who alerted, which makes it all the more amusing. I did alert on the PMs, but evidently this one is still up to more of the same behavior which says more about their own pathology than anyone else.

whathehell
YES.

Mail Message
Now that Wussie boy alerted on me,

I guess I'll just have to answer personlly, lol.

whathehell
Was it the little Wussie boy in you who needed to 'alert' on me?

Mail Message
I can SEE why you're threatened by strong women.

You've probably not gotten laid in a year, LOL.

whathehell
I'd suggest you stay in the shallow end of the pool, "Major", lol

Mail Message

[opiate69]

48. Wow..

Somebody needs a little break I'd say... Did anything come of your alerts?

[Major Nikon]

49. I have no idea

I forwarded it to the admins and let them take any action they felt necessary. But those were from a while back and said poster is still posting and evidently hasn't changed their bad behavior.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

50. Isn't "wussie" a quasi-sexist slur?

Clearly, it's crossing into homophobic bullying, which is supposedly verboten on DU and should be offensive to all here. I guess who says it is what really matters.

Glad to know I'm not the only one facing attempted verbal assault by this individual.

[Major Nikon]

51. Here's how I see it

If someone thinks their opinion is so important they have to engage in silly insults, alert trolling, or any of the other half-fast grammar school games that people like to play, they probably aren't all that relevant to begin with.

[TreasonousBastard]

47. I got less than halfway through that thread of...

people with goggles on talking past each other.

Much as I would like to say that there was idiocy on both (I think there were two) sides, it became clear that behind a lot of the anger and (deliberate?) misunderstanding was this deep disturbance about the fact that men do indeed masturbate to depictions of sex, and naked women. For some reason we are designed to get aroused visually and anything can trigger it, with porn having a guarantee when you're in a hurry. I can't help remembering Woody Allen getting a call on Sunday morning-- "What are you doing?" "Just masturbating to the lingerie ads in the NY Times Magazine."

There's also that phenomenon of elderly men suddenly showing an interest in porn, possibly nostalgic for the real thing.

It' complicated, and misplaced angst and anger have mo place in the discussion. Properly placed anger over criminal acts does, of course, but it helps to remember just what those criminal acts are.

BTW, did a few people in that thread just lose a job, a pet, a relative, or something else important? Seems some have a lot of time on their hands to post, and great personal loss would explain the attitude.

[opiate69]

52. Kick for relevance....

[LadyHawkAZ]

53. LOL I had just fished the link off my FB to post

Forgot it was in here.

[opiate69]

54. GMTA!

Good to see you, Lady! How's things?

[LadyHawkAZ]

55. Busy. Moving always sucks.

I went into lurk mode after the levels of stupid in GD went toxic, and it's left me with a bunch of free time. I've been finding things to fill up the time with.

I remember now all the reasons why I hated Arizona . We're getting some lovely weather though, it's been in the 70s/80s since I got here: it would be perfect riding weather if my bike battery hadn't croaked. Dammit.

[opiate69]

56. Ah.. Arizona.. Nice place, but too many republicans, scorpions and snakes for me. lol

[LadyHawkAZ]

57. Yeah, it seems I arrived right in the middle of a scandal!

Typical AZ, where the state mascot is the Wild Desert Bigot.

[Warren DeMontague]

58. Oh, geez, you have my condolences.

Moving is right up there with root canals, in my book.

[LadyHawkAZ]

60. Thanks

This should give you a good idea of my stress level during the move: I took up smoking again, after more than 2 years. I'm having to take up *quitting* again, this week. I've spent the past 2 weeks within 90 miles of the grandchildren and have yet to see them, because I refuse to go visit them reeking like tobacco smoke.

Also my cat dislikes the new quarters and is pissed at me.

I almost hate to admit it but I miss Utah.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

59. You're not doing feminism right, indeed

Who should we save first from themselves, Kate Upton or the future Duke graduate?

[whathehell]

61. Yeah, sure

Except there are WAY more studies that say otherwise...Sorry boys.

https://www.google.com/search?q=majority+of+prostitutes+abused+as+children&sitesearch=#q=most+prostitutes+abused+as+children

[LadyHawkAZ]

63. You know you're searching a different industry, right? n/t

[whathehell]

64. You mean the difference between "in person" prostitution and the Big Screen version?

Uh, yeah, I guess so.

[opiate69]

66. And, if I'm not mistaken, most of those links just refer back to the same study anyway...

So much for "preponderance of evidence"

[Major Nikon]

65. A peer reviewed study vs an unrelated google search

I can't say I'm much impressed by your contradiction.

[whathehell]

67. An "unrelated" google search?...Riiiighht, because porn "acting" isn't "prostitution", Right?

I can't say I'm much impressed by you're critical thinking skills, either.

[Major Nikon]

68. "I can't say I'm much impressed by you're(sic) critical thinking skills"

Brilliant!

Speaking of which if your objective is to flame people in the MG, and I'm pretty sure it is, then I'll invite you to leave. Consider this your only warning.

[whathehell]

69. LOL...Is that the BEST you can do?

Good try, bro, but lots of us DO forget the spell check once in awhile!

You are "Warning" me?....Knock yourself out, honey, I'm "inviting" you to Ignore!

[Major Nikon]

70. Actually it's not

Consider yourself ignored.

[opiate69]

72. lol!

[Warren DeMontague]

73. Hey, "At" least you're "getting" some "exercise"

[opiate69]

71. Um..

All of those links refer back to the same study.

[Blue_Adept]

62. A good documentary

I saw this on XFinity on Demand the other day, I think it was Showtime on demand;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aroused_(film)

It had a couple of stars that I like so I checked it out and it was interesting as the woman who was doing the documentary stated she didn't want to see their films prior to the shoot and discussion itself. She wanted to talk to the women, not the stars, to hear about their lives and stories.

Some interesting stuff.

[TreasonousBastard]

74. Here's one who is...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/07/duke-university-rules-porn-star-student-has-not-broken-any-rules/

She's paying her way through Duke making porn and loves it.

[Exultant Democracy]

75. I know two porn stars. One fits the stereotype the other challenges it at every step.

The girl who was the total drug addicted porn star fuck up was from my high school and was raised by fundy xtians. The other I met in college and she was raised by some die hard hippies from Ithaca and not only does she say that porn has empowered her (like the Duke girl) but it is also obvious how she has been empowered by working in an industry that celebrates her for her personal sexuality.