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Thu May 21, 2015, 09:00 PM

Circumcision discussion

Since women don't have penises, are their opinions as valid (based on experience) as say, a man's opinions about vaginal health?

And yes, circumcision is very often a health issue since non-circumcised penises face greater chance for ailments such as inflammatory dermatoses (balanitis), HIV and other STDs, not to mention social acceptability (from both men and women varying depending on your micro-culture). These are things MEN experience in their lives and, like issues relating to women's bodies, are best understood by men.

P.S> This was locked in GD as flame bait... Is this flame bait?

38 replies, 3742 views

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Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 38 replies Author Time Post
Reply Circumcision discussion (Original post)
Bonobo May 2015 OP
Warren DeMontague May 2015 #1
Bonobo May 2015 #2
Warren DeMontague May 2015 #4
ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2015 #3
Bonobo May 2015 #5
Warren DeMontague May 2015 #6
Bonobo May 2015 #7
Warren DeMontague May 2015 #8
Bonobo May 2015 #9
Warren DeMontague May 2015 #12
Bonobo May 2015 #13
Warren DeMontague May 2015 #14
Bonobo May 2015 #16
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply *
Warren DeMontague May 2015 #18
opiate69 May 2015 #32
lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #30
MADem May 2015 #10
Warren DeMontague May 2015 #11
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #15
Bonobo May 2015 #17
Warren DeMontague May 2015 #19
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #22
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #20
Bonobo May 2015 #21
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #24
Bonobo May 2015 #25
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #27
Bonobo May 2015 #23
Behind the Aegis May 2015 #26
Bonobo May 2015 #28
lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #29
mythology May 2015 #31
MicaelS May 2015 #33
KWMB May 2015 #34
KWMB May 2015 #35
Major Nikon May 2015 #36
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jun 2015 #37
Bonobo Jun 2015 #38

Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Thu May 21, 2015, 09:07 PM

1. Technically, it was hidden, not locked.

I dont think "flame bait" is an exception to the GD SOP, otherwise GD would be a ghost town.

Bad jury call, too. I have no idea why 4 would vote to hide that.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Thu May 21, 2015, 09:11 PM

2. I think I just got a jury that hates me.

I've always been someone who is either loved or hated in equal measure and equal intensity.

I embrace my enemies. I sup on their vexations and drink their tears.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #2)

Thu May 21, 2015, 09:15 PM

4. Yeah, aint that a kick in the nuts?

I obviously have people on the board I like more than others, but I really do try to be impartial when Im on a jury.

But a lot of people have me on their blacklists, I think, so maybe it doesnt come up anyway.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #1)

Thu May 21, 2015, 09:12 PM

3. Seriously....hidden?

Whomever alerted is an asshole. A giant fucking one.

Hide that. I don't care. Supposedly they don't come in here anyway.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #3)

Thu May 21, 2015, 09:18 PM

5. Seriously though, in a way I DO embrace it.

It makes the double standard, the hypocrisy, as plain as day.

These are entirely valid questions and the comparison to women's health is equally valid.

Emotional screams of "MRA!" don't do much to hide that these are a reasonable thing to discuss on a message board.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Thu May 21, 2015, 09:43 PM

6. Okay on the topic of the thread

It's a sensitive area, so to speak, for a lot of reasons. Observant Jews can have one reaction to these threads for obvious reasons, because of feeling that there is an inherently discriminatory element to the discussion.

I think it touches on a lot of things...( Man, it's tough to avoid the double entendres) personal autonomy, tradition, culture, obviously sexuality...

I was born during a time when it was "just done", really almost automatically. And honeslty i never thought about it that much until the time came for me to have kids of my own... But once i really considered it, i came to the conclusion that, hey, this is my body and early in my life someone took it upon themselves to alter it without asking me, first.

That's where i sit with it, now. But ...I do not feel qualified to tell other parents how they should approach the matter.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #6)

Thu May 21, 2015, 09:45 PM

7. Thanks, but that actually isn't precisely the topic.

What I am asking is should men's opinions carry more weight (not legally, but morally in a sense) than women's because they have penises and know the experience and can evaluate the issues better -similar to vaginal health issues.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #7)

Thu May 21, 2015, 09:46 PM

8. Arguably, yes.

That makes sense to me. But then I defer to the base position that the ultimate authority about any decision or discussion regarding a human body ought to default to them which hath the body, or however you want to put it.

Like how to my mind, a woman's opinion that is anti choice - as in, anti choice for other women - carries no more weight than any other anti choice person's, to my mind. The person who should make decisions about a pregnancy is the pregnant individual. etc.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #8)

Thu May 21, 2015, 09:54 PM

9. Agreed.

And also agreed about people making their own decisions --but parents making decisions for what they think is in the best interests of a child is a pretty normal thing.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #9)

Fri May 22, 2015, 12:20 AM

12. True.

So I have sort of how I personally feel about it as a human being and male who didn't have a choice (without carrying a ton of blame, mind you) as well as as a parent, but then also as someone who isn't interested in second-guessing how other parents handle it.

Not my style.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #12)

Fri May 22, 2015, 12:24 AM

13. So tell me, smart guy, what is it?

Why is it so offensive to suggest males have a more informed and therefore more weighty opinion about what happens to their kid's penises?

Why is it so offensive to suggest that castration and killing of men in war is at least as important as rape?

Why does pointing out that saying "hissy fit" or "whining man-babies" is as offensive as saying "hysterical bitch"?

Etc.

Is it just the pendulum having shot so far, inevitably? Or am I just mistaking a tiny number of over-the toppers for being representative of something that actually doesn't exist?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #13)

Fri May 22, 2015, 01:18 AM

14. Sure.

Although I'm fairly sure I'm not the target market for what you're asking.

1) I don't think it is.

2) I don't think it is, and, I think they're all important.

3) I think there's a lot of rampant hypocrisy on the intertubes. When the exact same people who tried to claim that Seth Rogen movies were somehow responsible for Eliot Rodger's shooting spree, 6 months later try to say Fundamentalist Islam has nothing to do with Charlie Hebdo... it's clear that logical consistency - not to mention fact- has gone out the window in service of perpetuating narratives.


Lastly, again, I think there is a giant, self-perpetuating noise machine on the web (and it has spawned reactions to it, which have in turn spawned reactions to that) ... it's unfortunate, because I look at the generation hitting voting age right now and I *KNOW* some of them are drawn to chucklemonkeys like Rand Paul because they see "liberals" as being full-of-shit, facts-be-damned agenda promoters just as surely as we look at Rick Santorum or GOP Global Warming denialists and say the same.

We ought to be the party, the side, of truth and not "truthiness". Once, we were, I think- or else we were so unified by being the underdogs that the fact-ignoring bs had to take a back seat.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #14)

Fri May 22, 2015, 01:44 AM

16. Warren, I think you are fucking awesome.

Amazingly, still you rise.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #16)

Fri May 22, 2015, 01:48 AM

18. *



anyway, right back atcha, brother. AND that was a crap hide.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #16)

Sat May 23, 2015, 09:50 AM

32. I second that motion.

 

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #14)

Fri May 22, 2015, 01:12 PM

30. +1 n/t

 

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #6)

Thu May 21, 2015, 11:18 PM

10. People do not realize that circumcision is a component of Islam as well.

One of the ways they can "tell" if you're a Muslim or fronting is to check your undercarriage, as it were.

It's not just a "Jewish thing" when you're talking about religious imperatives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khitan_%28circumcision%29

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Response to MADem (Reply #10)

Fri May 22, 2015, 12:19 AM

11. That's true- and I am, actually, aware of that.

I come from a Jewish family and larger community so on a personal level it's come up more conversation-wise in that context, but you are of course absolutely correct.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri May 22, 2015, 01:37 AM

15. I am not surprised it was hidden.

I do think men should have more input into the decision. I find the discussions around this topic to be ignorant at best, much of the time. I think remarks like "mutilated", "deformed", and the like to be offensive and akin to body shamming, but it is more offensive when it comes from women. Just as they don't like to be judged on their bodies, neither do we, and despite the patriarchal society, it doesn't make nasty remarks about our bodies any less destructive.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #15)

Fri May 22, 2015, 01:45 AM

17. You said it about the mutilated thing.

Can you fucking imagine if THAT was reversed. Holy fucking shit.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #17)

Fri May 22, 2015, 01:51 AM

19. Yeah well again, body shaming is apparently okay when done in the service of an approved ideology.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #19)

Fri May 22, 2015, 02:20 AM

22. Those were some nasty comments!

I think she is a beautiful woman. She has been attacked in so many articles, I really wonder where she gets her strength.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #17)

Fri May 22, 2015, 02:16 AM

20. I see it all the time in the main forums.

It is really very disgusting. Of course, it isn't limited to circumcisions either. There was the whole "baby dick" thread. The "little cock having" gun owners comments made. Quite frankly, it ties in with some of the homophobia I see here too, which primarily focus on gay men (sometimes bisexual men).

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #20)

Fri May 22, 2015, 02:19 AM

21. The baby dick thread was gross... I often want to ask this hypothetical...

"IF, as you believe, men are motivated out of embarrassment over their small penises to be bad people who do violent things, then why would you want to contribute to that shaming?"

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #21)

Fri May 22, 2015, 02:27 AM

24. Perhaps you should ask it!

How often are we (as people) are reminded the cycle of violence feeds on itself? If this is true, then participating in it by such comments simply "feeds" the process. We (liberals) know it is bad to belittle people for being born with darker skin; we know it is wrong to put down people who are sexual minorities, yet, when it comes to how men are born, including their penises shape, size, and look, are fair game?! Men can no more control the size of their penis (without surgery or some other risky methods) than I (or other GLB people) can control our sexual orientation!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #24)

Fri May 22, 2015, 02:34 AM

25. I am already sure of the reaction...

1. "Poor baby, you're so objectified and oppressed"

2. "Go back to the Little Boy's Club"

3. "Such a whiner"

4. "MRA blarggle garrrgle"

etc.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #25)

Fri May 22, 2015, 02:53 AM

27. Undoubtedly.

But, there is always the possibility it could spark some discussion or even open some minds. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. All that said, you are likely correct in what the responses would be.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #20)

Fri May 22, 2015, 02:24 AM

23. Could you explain the homophobia connection to me? nt

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #23)

Fri May 22, 2015, 02:51 AM

26. It is intricate and I hope I can explain myself well enough.

Some of the comments I have seen, which I feel are homophobic, almost always relate to male homo/bisexuals, mainly the "homo-" group, but I am trying to be inclusive. The male to male relationships are defined as being "less than" and all about sex. When I see comments about homophobes being "secret gays", the targets of the assertion are almost always men! Cruz just recently made some stupid (imagine that) comments about gay people (marriage), and the resulting comments on his ignorance were about him being a possible homosexual because of his "obsession" with gays. The reactions to him and about his comments revolved around who's penis might go where. Lindsay Graham threads are usually pretty bad too. Think about it...how often have you seen comments about female homophobes being "secret lesbians"? How about single women being 'closeted lesbians?" The other issue, IMO, is when a gay man is attacked and the homophobia is pointed out, it becomes a discussion about anti-female sexism or misogyny. Sure, both of those contribute to homophobia, but when the victim is male, the subject seems to get changed. I have noticed similar situations when gay men are the victims of sexual assault (sometimes, it applies to men in general).

It comes down to 'shaming' men, their bodies, and their sexuality.

Did that make any sense?!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #26)

Fri May 22, 2015, 02:56 AM

28. Yes, it did.

It is complex, but I see a glimpse of it now. I need to give it more thought when I am not working on a translation. Translating Japanese to English exhausts the brain and I have been at it the last 9 hours.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #26)

Fri May 22, 2015, 01:07 PM

29. I sorta understand what you're saying.

 

I have been guilty of criticizing homophobes on the (scientifically sound) basis that they are more likely to experience same sex attraction. My intention is to show that their homophobia is aggravated by hypocrisy or cowardice (it takes courage to come out), but I'm sure it often sounds like I'm suggesting that their character flaws are made worse by being gay.

I hope that made sense.

Thanks, btw.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri May 22, 2015, 09:49 PM

31. In general, yes I do

 

In the specific, such as a couple deciding if their son should be circumcised, both parents should be equally involved.

And no it's not flamebait.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Thu May 28, 2015, 07:00 PM

33. No.

We don't know what it is like to have a female reproductive system and the problems associated with it. Just like they don't have a male reproductive system, and the problems associated with it.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)


Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Fri May 29, 2015, 10:40 PM

35. Live and let live.

I believe in the freedom of individuals - whether male or female. Unless a procedure is medically necessary to a child's survival, decisions regarding one's person should be left to individual choice - period.

But, to answer more in line with the original question -- I do not believe anyone not qualified should make decisions about anyone's health. If this is personal choice we are talking about, then I would think the opinions of men are more valid when discussing male issues - just as the opinions of women are more valid when discussing female issues.

If, on the other hand, we are talking about professional knowledge, health issues, etc. - anyone who is qualified to answer such questions has a valid opinion. There are males who specialize in female health issues, and women who specialize in male issues -- so in those cases, their opinions would be valid - regardless of the gender of the professional.

Just my humble take on the issue..

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Response to KWMB (Reply #35)

Sat May 30, 2015, 04:23 PM

36. I think the point is...

either males' opinions over male health are more valid than females', or females' opinions over female health aren't more valid than males'.

Trying to have it one way but not the other seems a bit hypocritical.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Jun 9, 2015, 11:33 PM

37. I always think it's interesting to hear a guy who's pro-circumcision....

....whose only argument seems to be "well, that's the way we do it, get over it" and proceed to mock any man concerned about it.

Comes across as very similar to conservatives arguments about health care and drug law as opposed to other nations.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #37)

Tue Jun 9, 2015, 11:41 PM

38. Don't have your kid circumcised. nt

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