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Mon Jun 16, 2014, 10:46 AM

What would make this group "acceptable" to some people?

I seem to notice whenever someone wants to talk about a proliferation of MRA talking points on DU, this group almost inevitably is referenced, either directly or tangentially, as being part of the problem. DUers who get hidden or banned for saying sexist and using horribly personal insults against other DUers are often accused of being "Men's Groupers" (even though if you do a little research you find some of them have never even posted a single post in here). I've seen some "Why do we even have a Men's Group?" as if the very existence is a pox on DU's brain trust for allowing it....and others who seem to have a clear idea of what they think it "should be", and have decided this is not it.

If every post was about, say, prostate cancer, or awareness of make breast cancer.....would that be okay? Or is that still too, "troublesome" and "unnecessary".

How about every thread being about your favorite razor or cologne? Or is that too shallow and again, "unnecessary"?

Should it be about the place of the liberal man in today's society? Where we stand as a collective? Or is that "exclusionary"?

The suicide rate among men is apparently not worthy of discussion, by the way, at least in the context talked about here.

I'm trying to figure out what we need to do for DU to be just ok with us?

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Arrow 20 replies Author Time Post
Reply What would make this group "acceptable" to some people? (Original post)
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jun 2014 OP
JVS Jun 2014 #1
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jun 2014 #2
opiate69 Jun 2014 #3
Blue_Adept Jun 2014 #4
HuskiesHowls Jun 2014 #5
Darkhawk32 Jun 2014 #6
mokawanis Jun 2014 #7
nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #9
stevenleser Jun 2014 #15
nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #8
Doctor_J Jun 2014 #10
kjones Jun 2014 #11
nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #12
Warren DeMontague Jun 2014 #13
lumberjack_jeff Jun 2014 #14
Warren DeMontague Jun 2014 #16
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jun 2014 #17
name not needed Jun 2014 #18
opiate69 Jun 2014 #20
GOLGO 13 Jun 2014 #19

Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Original post)

Mon Jun 16, 2014, 10:50 AM

1. Nothing can make this group acceptable to some people.

But I think this group would be much improved if the hosts banned people hostile to the existence of this group from posting here and making trouble. The presence of such posters interferes with the creation of a supportive environment.

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Response to JVS (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 16, 2014, 10:55 AM

2. I think one of the things that's great here....

....is the hosts are willing to engage the openly hostile within reason. Granted, it usually takes about three posts for the hostility to boil over beyond acceptable levels....but it's always refreshing that it doesn't degenerate into a mob of zombies swarming the live victim in seconds pile on that it would devolve into elsewhere. The Men's Group is civil, and sadly, I think that's part of the problem for some of the hating outsiders. Their full frontal attacks aren't going to go anywhere.

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Response to JVS (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 16, 2014, 11:28 AM

3. Agreed on all points

 

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Original post)

Mon Jun 16, 2014, 03:25 PM

4. Considering how little activity this group gets

It's surprising the vitriol. I suspect many are just talking about Men's Group in a general sense and not this ne specifically, but others certainly are.

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Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #4)

Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:48 PM

5. I feel the small amount of activity is because of the vitriol.

I know that there are some things I would post about, and would like to see discussed, but I know that it would create a major problem with some groups here on DU. And what I find most bothersome is that I don't even consider them controversial, and could actually be a learning experience for those attacking, if they would actually participate, rather than attack.

Discussions of how we could help young boys grow up to be responsible, knowledgeable young men; what the proper response(s) to various situations we run into; how we as men deal with grief, and how better to deal with it; what we find most irritating in our lives. Some of these discussions would be greatly enriched by female input, and some would not, but attacks and (attempting to) shame us as "men" would add nothing.

And, unfortunately, I remember back in DU2 when this group was first started, the attacks on it started-probably on the very first day it was set up.

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Response to HuskiesHowls (Reply #5)

Mon Jun 16, 2014, 07:14 PM

6. The vitriol is pervasive and verbally violent. n/t

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Original post)

Mon Jun 16, 2014, 10:10 PM

7. I think a lot of people have decided this group is unacceptable

and they are entrenched in their opinions and judgment. I don't object to them criticizing the Men's Group, but I do object to some of the vile and nasty comments I've read from time to time. Criticism is fine, but contempt and open hostility aren't acceptable, imo. In answer to your question, I don't think anything could be done to make this group acceptable to a lot of people. Their minds are already made up. This group should just keep doing what it does, and I think the hosts do a good of job of regulating what goes on here. My 2 cents.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 17, 2014, 03:05 AM

9. The posts accusing you guys of being an MRA-fest are nearly all unjustified IMO.

DU has a problem with sexism - and racism, and homophobia or at least hetero-normativity - but the Men's Group is hardly the locus of any of these issues.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 23, 2014, 12:48 AM

15. ANY unjustified accusation that someone is a member of a hate group should be a bannable offense

 

Whether it is MRA, KKK, NeoNazi, Identity, etc.

Anyone accusing another DUer of being a member of a hate group without strong justification should be banned by admins.

I have no idea why people are being allowed to throw around an accusation like this without consequences. It's vile.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Original post)

Tue Jun 17, 2014, 03:02 AM

8. "Should it be about the place of the liberal man in today's society? Where we stand as a collective?

That doesn't sound like a bad starting point, honestly.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Original post)

Tue Jun 17, 2014, 10:44 AM

10. I think this quote from the HoF is instructive

 

The issue is a matter of male sexual appetite. Which is more often than not excessive, aggressive...

And demeaning.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1139&pid=10345

And, soon thereafter, by the same member

The reality is clear: Every group on DU is a men's group.


It will be difficult for this group to become acceptable as long as DUers think of us in those terms, and are willing to express such opinions so blatantly. Also I believe that the outrage over the SI pictures and the celebrity pic threads is probably NOT something we want to try to assuage.

I have been married for 3 decades to an ardent feminist, who also happens to be beautiful and extremely accomplished in her professional life. My grown-up daughters are happy, successful, and in great relationships with good, trustworthy men. What I am trying to say is I am comfortable in my skin with the life I've led, and don't spend much time worrying about being accepted. I say post what you want to - prostate cancer, comfortable shoes, raising offspring of EITHER gender, deciding not to have a family, pet peeves about your partners (for some reason Mrs. D_J won't pee in the shower). Let those who want to do so participate, ignore the rest, and, as far as the violent rhetoric from the others, don't feed the trolls. We may remain an under-used group, but c'est la vie.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 18, 2014, 12:26 PM

11. I agree

If people want to find somewhere and talk about anything that could be related to
men's interests, I'm sure they'll find their way here. Any one who is very opposed to
this group isn't likely to have their mind changed, especially through any kind of
diplomacy (war or peace). To the point those individuals have lead this group to
focus on them, they've "won." Or rather, once you can look back at the threads in
the men's group and see that too many (one is too many) reference ongoing trollage
and rhetoric, men's group loses (loses out on what it should be doing, discussing men's
issues). Go to the issues and let everything else fall as it does. The ongoing "contest",
I guess you could call it, just feels like it makes everyone involved look bad, whether they
are or not.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #10)

Thu Jun 19, 2014, 10:59 PM

12. That poster is actually a guy. And I don't always agree with him but he seems quite intelligent

and not generally full of shit.

Otherwise, I basically agree with your points. No point trying to please everybody all the time.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Original post)

Fri Jun 20, 2014, 04:22 PM

13. Nothing.

But it's worth noting that every single problem that is ascribed to this group, existed long before DU3 (and TMG) came into being.

In fact pretty much any ridiculous outrage-DU-jour in GD, has an identical twin in the archives some 5, 6, 7 years ago. The Rude Pundit? DU did this same exact dance over him in 2007, I think. Of course, he wasn't the household name he is today, but... the same arguments, often with the same people.

Two things I don't like are repeating myself and totally futile repetitive behaviors, so I don't bother with it much, anymore. But expecting "the rude pundit", for instance, to stop being the rude pundit is sort of like expecting the people who have constructed their online identities, such as they are, around being perpetually aggreived, as well as continual windmill-tilting against the words, expressions, opinions, and people they don't like on this website, to suddenly stop doing that.

"admin needs to get rid of the mens group, that will solve the problems" is merely one horse on the carousel, that comes around every so often. The fact is, "the problems" aren't supposed to be solved, ever. The endless battles against them are the sole raison d'etre, as near as I can tell, of some folks' showing up here year after year. Expecting those people to change what they do- what they've pretty much continually done for 10 years or more in some cases- is probably as ridiculous as expecting the rude pundit to stop being the rude pundit.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Original post)

Fri Jun 20, 2014, 09:26 PM

14. I think it's imperative that this group is fulfilling to its participants. Bystanders? Fuck 'em.

 

The group will always be unacceptable to some people, because there is a simplistic view of women's advocacy that sees actual bias against men to the be the correct reaction to perceived bias against women.

To "some people" the only acceptable function for liberal guys is as a feminism auxiliary. We are supposed to have no interests, desires, goals, aspirations or values in our own right, nor are we supposed to advocate for ourselves, because that would constitute whining about issues for which we should man up.

Oh, and by the way, while we're manning-up and suppressing our whining, we should stop using gendered language and reject rigid gender roles.

Seriously. Stop worrying about what they think. They are bigots and hypocrites. One of the virtues inherent in the male ideal is the predisposition to choose to either suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or take up arms against the sea of troubles.

Either is a perfectly valid choice, but the middle road whereupon we wring our hands, gnash our teeth and rend our garments about what we could possibly have done to earn such disapproval...?

I find myself uninterested in that path.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Original post)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 06:13 PM

16. Perhaps this group should engage in more ..."outreach" in GD, like some other popular groups do!

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 06:33 PM

17. And all thread headers of this ongoing series should start with....

"Why You Suck, and What You CAN'T Do About It!"

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #16)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 06:52 PM

18. We have determined that Itchy & Scratchy does not meet DU community standards.

Please replace it with something more appropriate.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:39 AM

20. Who doesn't appreciate a nice outreach program?

 


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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:28 AM

19. Acceptable to men?

I got no issues talking about the Yankees batting ave age going into this season. Or the never ending & unfulfilled plight of Scratchy in Itchy & Scratchy cartoons.

John Deere lawn mowers? Divinely inspired or tools of the devil?

Taste great or Less filling? What matters most to men?

Harley Davidson or Triumph? My quest for an iron horse!

Does Scarlett Johanson's legs go on forever or just seem like they do? An in depth analysis after these messages.

Maiden or Priest?

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