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Tue Feb 17, 2015, 05:22 AM

Is a socialist america a possibility anymore?

Has citizens united destroyed any chance of America becoming socialist? Are we now doomed to become a libertarian fascist hell hole? Are we past the point of no return? I feel like billionaires control everything and all of the workers rights that union's fought so hard for will be stripped away in the next decade along with all of our environmental laws. The saddest thing is I don't believe that most of my fellow Americans even care. 2016 may give us Scott Walker for president. With a corporate friendly congress he will steam roll the rest of America the same way he has been steam rolling Wisconsin. Is there anything left that we can do to stop this?

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Arrow 22 replies Author Time Post
Reply Is a socialist america a possibility anymore? (Original post)
Kevin from WI Feb 2015 OP
TexasTowelie Feb 2015 #1
Depaysement Feb 2015 #2
newfie11 Feb 2015 #3
imthevicar Feb 2015 #4
rogerashton Feb 2015 #8
imthevicar Feb 2015 #10
rogerashton Feb 2015 #13
imthevicar Feb 2015 #19
rogerashton Feb 2015 #20
Demeter Feb 2015 #5
imthevicar Feb 2015 #21
Martin Eden Feb 2015 #6
harun Feb 2015 #7
wyldwolf Feb 2015 #9
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #16
Scuba Feb 2015 #11
vlyons Feb 2015 #12
RedstDem Feb 2015 #14
Starry Messenger Feb 2015 #15
socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #17
TBF Feb 2015 #18
2banon Feb 2015 #22

Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 06:01 AM

1. Yes.

VOTE!!!

Welcome to DU.

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 06:25 AM

2. Oh bloody hell

Don't mourn, organize.

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 06:56 AM

3. I've wondered that to Kevin

It seems people are oblivious to what's happening here.
Many don't vote and many vote the party line and have no idea what the candidate stands for.
Our news media is a joke. I know how you feel. I'm in all red western SD. I don't know one person that is a Dem except my husband and I.

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 07:14 AM

4. Capitalism is no longer doable,

 

let alone socialism. I can prove it with 4 words, Too Big to Fail. It's over we lost.

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Response to imthevicar (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 07:38 AM

8. Defeatism is always tempting.

But you are right on one thing. Capitalism is no longer doable. What we have is crony capitalism, and Citizen's United is essentially the constitution of crony capitalism. But crony capitalism is 1) very inefficient -- by the standards of pro-capitalism neoclassical economics! See Stiglitz' The Price of Inequality on that; 2) also increasingly unstable as inequality increases. (Stiglitz, who believes that capitalism can and should be saved, has no solution. Keynesian economics can trim the sails -- but when the mainmast is overboard, there are no sails to trim.)

But on your other point -- only half right. Soviet-type socialism is not doable, I agree -- except perhaps as a temporary emergency measure. But that has never been the only plan for socialism. A socialism based on decentralized worker-control and planning from the bottom up can give us a future worth having.

As a Fabian socialist, my hope is that the self-destruction of capitalism can be foreseen and avoided by building socialism through democratic processes. I admit my hopes on that score are less than they were. The alternative -- self-destructive collapse of capitalism followed by revolution "like kicking in a rotten door" -- would mean a terrible life for our children, though our grandchildren could reap the benefits. For our children's sake, we need to get out there and change minds, despite the obstacles created by Citizens United and all the other advantages that the billionaire class has. And make no mistake -- I am old enough to remember the eighties and nineties -- neoliberalism does not have the momentum it had. People are looking for some answers. Don't give up.

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Response to rogerashton (Reply #8)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 07:46 AM

10. I'm a Cynic, Defeatist join the other side.

 

“Scratch any cynic and you will find a disappointed idealist.”
― George Carlin
I Believe In Jacques Fresco's vision myself. But do you think the Koch brothers or Jacob Rothschild will ever Que up behind you or me!? I'm too old for Revolution. Revolution is a young person Game.

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Response to imthevicar (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 09:12 AM

13. No, you are a defeatist.

Traitors join the other side. And as for the Koch brothers, the collapse of capitalism will be their collapse.

And I suspect I am older than you are.

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Response to rogerashton (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 01:39 PM

19. Well let's see.

 

They (The Wealthy) Have all the money, Land, Newspapers, Radio, police, judges, courts, and politicians. we have the court of public opinion, Which means Jack shit, and is played like a violin. Stop for a moment, before you try to insult me again, to think about all the folks here who believe in the fantasy of the The Gulf of Tonkin Incident or 911 false flags, and that should tell you of the vast intellectual pool we have as a resource. and you tell me what good are things like the internet or DU!? I end this statement with a quote. One that I read In the book it came from, (Know thy enemy.)

"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders (The Wealthy) of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."-Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf

The old German War bride who used to live up the street from me, (RIP) saw this coming 6 years ago. And said to me, "It's happening all over again, and in my lifetime."

So what can a good German, oops I mean, American do, and not end up in a concentration camp?

BTW Capitalism does not exist any more for the big boys, remember? Too Big To Fail!

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Response to imthevicar (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 03:11 PM

20. How did I insult you?

Calling you a defeatist? From the dictionary: "a person who expects ... failure." and you quote "It's happening all over again, and in my lifetime." QED

On your last point, though, we agree. Crony capitalism is not capitalism, anyway not, as you say, "for the big boys." But "too big to fail" doesn't mean they won't fail. They will. It's only a question of how much else they will take down with them.

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 07:30 AM

5. Where there's life, there's hope

 

But damnit! If the smart people cower in corners, it will take generations.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 04:05 PM

21. I agree But,

 

I'm too old for this, too week, and hurt too much to put up a fight. especially when I have to educate the people first. I only do a one on one now. that's how I keep My sanity!

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 07:31 AM

6. I thought you knew ...

... Dictator Obama imposed socialism on America when he illegally occupied the Oval Office.

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 07:32 AM

7. http://www.wolf-pac.com/

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 07:42 AM

9. Except for a very brief window in the 1930s...

There was never a chance for socialism in America

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 09:31 AM

16. And as Bernie Sanders points out, economic inequality is back to what it was then.

The worse off people become under capitalism, the more they are open to rejecting it.

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 08:04 AM

11. It's difficult to avoid being demoarlized in these times, but I believe things will eventually swing

 

... back towards a better America. As another Wisconsinite, I too am seeing first-hand the destructive power of the oligarchs. But I will never leave Wisconsin, never stop fighting.

Things will certainly get worse before they get better, and some of Walker's damage will never be undone. But we will eventually see things improve.

Stay strong, Kevin, stay strong.

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 08:09 AM

12. socialism gets a bad rap

Thanks to 50 years of the cold war against the USSR and communism, RWers equated socialism with the evils of communism, which it certainly is not. I don't how many times, the slur "socialist" has been thrown at me by idiots, who don't know what socialism is, or that there are different types of socialism. They don't realize public schools and universities, fire and police depts, criminal courts, roads and bridges, fire and restaurant inspectors, waterways, parks, etc are all forms of socialism. We need to educate people that socialism is not some scarey anti-American conspiracy to run your life.

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 09:17 AM

14. yes, but

 

It will need to be called something else.

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 09:23 AM

15. I think so, I think it will emerge state by state.

I'd be happy with a reversal of RTW laws in my lifetime though, and the elimination of Taft-Hartley.

CA has been holding the line--a combo of high unionization and keeping control of districting to prevent whacked out gerrymandering. There are some terrible ant-labor court fights going on though.

We can fight back, but I think we're going to have to be on permanent war footing.

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 11:40 AM

17. Well, I certainly hope not. Because it's either socialism or barbarism..........

And I pick socialism.

Your post is the problem of looking at the institution of socialism through the methodology of reformism and that will never work. The working class must take political power by any means necessary and that includes the methodology of revolution. If you only think of instituting socialism by means of reforming capitalism and gradually installing more and more socialism over a long term, it won't happen. But if you go outside of that box the you can at least see a possibility, albeit not an easy possibility.

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Tue Feb 17, 2015, 12:39 PM

18. I doubt it -

you can see how it's going in your state (I grew up there and still have numerous family in the middle of the state).

We moved to Houston for a job, and it actually has been ok because we are in an area that is very diverse. My young teen daughter is already planning on east coast or Europe for college. She has no hope that Texas will improve nor do I.

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Response to Kevin from WI (Original post)

Sat Feb 21, 2015, 04:44 PM

22. Not in our lifetime, and IF folks like a number of them here ..

 

in DU have their way.. you and I and everyone in this forum would likely be sent to prison camps for criticizing U.S. IMPERIALISM and just as bad: Capitalism in any context but especially in the context of East-West tensions over events in Ukraine.

Defenders of U.S. Imperialism are ramped up with Cold War Red Baiting Rhetoric, and that's just HERE on DU! Feels a lot like a John Birch site in that thread.

This sort of leaves me cold with pessimism. Thankfully there is this forum, for however much longer it lasts.





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