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Sun Jan 8, 2023, 01:47 AM

Communism or Capitalism - what do they mean

When it comes down to brass tax
what the hell does communism actually mean
when practiced by the state,
what if it was a democratic communistic state
has there ever been one of those

No - you got
Stalin, as well as many other

famous authentic Authoritarians
like Genghis Khan

maybe some would say people like
Mitch McConnell, (some might jest that he lies to stall progress, but they would not be necessarily joking)

Putin, Bashar al-Assad in Syria (what a major jerk)
Kim Jong-un and his whole family
and nobody,

Yes nobody.
Idi Amin
Supreme Leaders in Iran
The oppressive Saudi Kings

Fidel, etc...

Somehow that's all labeled communism

when it's really not.

It's more about oppression, not that capitalism by itself cannot be evil,
not in the slightest.

there's no clear-cut democratic communism,
nor is there a socialist or capitalist one.

Is there a clear-cut democratic capitalistic
higher power

Or is it possible that capitalistic ideology itself might be part of the reason
why too many people suffer,

how could anyone know without
critical analysis?

what does it mean to be free?

What does democracy mean?

democracy gets people talking
freely, there are more than a few aspects of capitalism
that do work well towards real progress

the individual is an asset towards any creation
of real progress

as is the team, and the freedom to choose

And it's a big world

especially if you dream

especially if you are free to

It's a lot to consider Joe

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Reply Communism or Capitalism - what do they mean (Original post)
Waterguy Jan 2023 OP
iemanja Jan 2023 #1
Waterguy Jan 2023 #2
iemanja Jan 2023 #4
Locrian Jan 2023 #5
Waterguy Jan 2023 #3
Waterguy Sep 2 #6

Response to Waterguy (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2023, 01:52 AM

1. Communism means the workers control the means of production

Yet in the interim--until a classless society is realized--the state acts as a dictatorship of the proletariat. That is according to Marx.

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Response to iemanja (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 8, 2023, 02:24 AM

2. how could the workers control the means of production?

Thanks iemanja,
I guess I needed that clarification.

How does the worker know,
how could they, any kind of commerce
is so, how we say, limited in any individualistic way.

Who controls the ship that sails, is the old age question

I wish it was an answer in itself, but it's not.

But, there is no question at all that we all are
dependent on one another's actions.

Especially when it comes to the Nation States.

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Response to Waterguy (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 8, 2023, 03:17 AM

4. Workers own the factories

There is no employer, and no one is exploited by an employer's profit motive. It's idealistic, but that's the concept.
Marx is meant to be the quintessential materialist. Unless you mean materialism as in a lust for goods. His ideal society doesn't have room for that.

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Response to iemanja (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 8, 2023, 12:08 PM

5. thanks

good explanation

The way I usually answer is to fist ask: "what is capitalism?" Its not really just "owning the means of production".

Capitalism is M-C-M' ie the the pursuit of profit for the sake of itself above all else. It is the elevation of that above all activities.

Capitalism is NOT the quaint notion of people trading goods and services, using money as an exchange - a bunch of happy artisans working in a village. Actual usefulness is only a byproduct of that activity. The system is designed to be a never ending game of continued increase in extraction (both of human effort and natural resources) for it to survive.

I believe it (capitalism) is fundamentally unsuited in dealing with the problems ie climate change.

Socialism is "above" communism, and contains a lot of subsets that contain "Marzism" which contains different version approaches (like the Netherlands, etc).

Go to about 5:30 in the video link:

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Response to iemanja (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 8, 2023, 02:31 AM

3. iemanja, you answered my question before it was asked

so according to Marx,
as you say, but why did
Marx posit this conclusion,

Some say humanism,
saying he didn't take into account
the material world, or the
whole congress about competition

but I think that premise misses the whole point

since I think all beings are pretty smart
I think wild animals are smart ---
even overly domesticated ones

like dogs and cats

and most humans

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Response to Waterguy (Original post)

Sat Sep 2, 2023, 06:56 PM

6. obviously communism wouldn't work - but it's not the threat they say it is

The slippery slope nonsense is clearly all propaganda which is something political conservative party leaders that imperative to disseminate.
SS or medicare doesn't lead to complete government control any more than public school or creation of the NIH.

Assisting people and protecting the environment in many ways helps to sustain economic progress.
The government can create jobs and has without controlling all means of production.

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