Sun Jan 8, 2023, 01:47 AM
Waterguy (190 posts)
Communism or Capitalism - what do they mean
When it comes down to brass tax
what the hell does communism actually mean when practiced by the state, what if it was a democratic communistic state has there ever been one of those No - you got Stalin, as well as many other famous authentic Authoritarians like Genghis Khan maybe some would say people like Mitch McConnell, (some might jest that he lies to stall progress, but they would not be necessarily joking) Putin, Bashar al-Assad in Syria (what a major jerk) Kim Jong-un and his whole family and nobody, Yes nobody. Idi Amin Supreme Leaders in Iran The oppressive Saudi Kings Fidel, etc... Somehow that's all labeled communism when it's really not. It's more about oppression, not that capitalism by itself cannot be evil, not in the slightest. there's no clear-cut democratic communism, nor is there a socialist or capitalist one. Is there a clear-cut democratic capitalistic higher power Or is it possible that capitalistic ideology itself might be part of the reason why too many people suffer, how could anyone know without critical analysis? what does it mean to be free? What does democracy mean? democracy gets people talking freely, there are more than a few aspects of capitalism that do work well towards real progress the individual is an asset towards any creation of real progress as is the team, and the freedom to choose And it's a big world especially if you dream especially if you are free to dream It's a lot to consider Joe
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6 replies, 4486 views
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Author | Time | Post |
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Waterguy | Jan 2023 | OP |
iemanja | Jan 2023 | #1 | |
Waterguy | Jan 2023 | #2 | |
iemanja | Jan 2023 | #4 | |
Locrian | Jan 2023 | #5 | |
Waterguy | Jan 2023 | #3 | |
Waterguy | Sep 2 | #6 |
Response to Waterguy (Original post)
Sun Jan 8, 2023, 01:52 AM
iemanja (52,854 posts)
1. Communism means the workers control the means of production
Yet in the interim--until a classless society is realized--the state acts as a dictatorship of the proletariat. That is according to Marx.
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Response to iemanja (Reply #1)
Sun Jan 8, 2023, 02:24 AM
Waterguy (190 posts)
2. how could the workers control the means of production?
Thanks iemanja,
I guess I needed that clarification. How does the worker know, how could they, any kind of commerce is so, how we say, limited in any individualistic way. Who controls the ship that sails, is the old age question I wish it was an answer in itself, but it's not. But, there is no question at all that we all are dependent on one another's actions. Especially when it comes to the Nation States. |
Response to Waterguy (Reply #2)
Sun Jan 8, 2023, 03:17 AM
iemanja (52,854 posts)
4. Workers own the factories
There is no employer, and no one is exploited by an employer's profit motive. It's idealistic, but that's the concept.
Marx is meant to be the quintessential materialist. Unless you mean materialism as in a lust for goods. His ideal society doesn't have room for that. |
Response to iemanja (Reply #4)
Sun Jan 8, 2023, 12:08 PM
Locrian (4,516 posts)
5. thanks
good explanation
The way I usually answer is to fist ask: "what is capitalism?" Its not really just "owning the means of production". Capitalism is M-C-M' ie the the pursuit of profit for the sake of itself above all else. It is the elevation of that above all activities. Capitalism is NOT the quaint notion of people trading goods and services, using money as an exchange - a bunch of happy artisans working in a village. Actual usefulness is only a byproduct of that activity. The system is designed to be a never ending game of continued increase in extraction (both of human effort and natural resources) for it to survive. I believe it (capitalism) is fundamentally unsuited in dealing with the problems ie climate change. Socialism is "above" communism, and contains a lot of subsets that contain "Marzism" which contains different version approaches (like the Netherlands, etc). Go to about 5:30 in the video link: |
Response to iemanja (Reply #1)
Sun Jan 8, 2023, 02:31 AM
Waterguy (190 posts)
3. iemanja, you answered my question before it was asked
so according to Marx,
as you say, but why did Marx posit this conclusion, Some say humanism, saying he didn't take into account the material world, or the whole congress about competition but I think that premise misses the whole point entirely since I think all beings are pretty smart I think wild animals are smart --- even overly domesticated ones like dogs and cats and most humans |
Response to Waterguy (Original post)
Sat Sep 2, 2023, 06:56 PM
Waterguy (190 posts)
6. obviously communism wouldn't work - but it's not the threat they say it is
The slippery slope nonsense is clearly all propaganda which is something political conservative party leaders that imperative to disseminate.
SS or medicare doesn't lead to complete government control any more than public school or creation of the NIH. Assisting people and protecting the environment in many ways helps to sustain economic progress. The government can create jobs and has without controlling all means of production. |