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Fri Feb 3, 2017, 12:35 AM

Done. Moving out. Back to Europe.

That's it.

I'm too old for this shit.

We have decided to sell up, buy an apartment in Aix and apply for long stay visa's for France.

Yes, I know, the French have their racists and xenophobes, and there is the worry of Marine LePen, but if we stay in the US, the stress is going to kill me and Mrs GoS.

Can't take it anymore. We'll join Democrats Abroad, we'll continue to be active, but the toxicity has finally gotten to us.

It's going to take a year or more, but going to be worth it.

We will miss our friends, and Philadelphia, but not the crap.

40 replies, 3541 views

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Arrow 40 replies Author Time Post
Reply Done. Moving out. Back to Europe. (Original post)
GoneOffShore Feb 2017 OP
2naSalit Feb 2017 #1
fleur-de-lisa Feb 2017 #17
BeyondGeography Feb 2017 #2
Jake Stern Feb 2017 #3
oldtime dfl_er Feb 2017 #4
Jake Stern Feb 2017 #6
mnhtnbb Feb 2017 #19
Jake Stern Feb 2017 #31
VMA131Marine Feb 2017 #5
Jake Stern Feb 2017 #8
FunkyLeprechaun Feb 2017 #10
oldtime dfl_er Feb 2017 #7
Jake Stern Feb 2017 #9
raccoon Feb 2017 #14
manicraven Feb 2017 #11
True Dough Feb 2017 #12
NanceGreggs Feb 2017 #13
Ghost Dog Feb 2017 #23
NanceGreggs Feb 2017 #37
alarimer Feb 2017 #15
sinkingfeeling Feb 2017 #16
fleur-de-lisa Feb 2017 #18
ginnyinWI Feb 2017 #29
mnhtnbb Feb 2017 #20
Va Lefty Feb 2017 #21
athena Feb 2017 #22
Jake Stern Feb 2017 #24
GoneOffShore Feb 2017 #25
JustAnotherGen Feb 2017 #26
lucca18 Feb 2017 #27
Squinch Feb 2017 #28
narnian60 Feb 2017 #32
AlexSFCA Feb 2017 #30
GoneOffShore Feb 2017 #33
pinboy3niner Feb 2017 #34
GoneOffShore Feb 2017 #35
pinboy3niner Feb 2017 #36
mackerel Feb 2017 #38
orleans Feb 2017 #39
SammyWinstonJack Feb 2017 #40

Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 12:43 AM

1. Can I go with you?

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 10:17 AM

17. Me too?

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 12:50 AM

2. Say hello to Yamina for me at the Institut Americain

on the Rue du bon Pasteur!

Spent one of the best years of my life in Aix as a student way back when and have been back many times. Great choice, which I probably don't have to tell you.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 12:55 AM

3. Feel the same here

My partner and I don't want to raise our son in this toxic environment. We are trying for simplified naturalization in a Central European nation we both have an ancestral connection to, which will open access to the EU.

If that fails we've discussed taking advantage of the Dutch American Friendship Treaty which gives Americans equal rights with Dutch nationals to reside and work in the Dutch Caribbean, Aruba and Curacao, maybe using that to springboard to the Netherlands.

Plan Z is Israel using Right of Return.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 01:03 AM

4. Looking that up now

I want out as well

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Response to oldtime dfl_er (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 01:16 AM

6. Never would I have imagined actually planning ways to leave America.

The thought of leaving family and friends behind is agonizing but raising our son here is simply no longer an option. This far right slide is not stopping anytime soon. I hoped that Dubya would be the end of it and that we'd come to our senses and shift back. With the election of Barack Obama it really seemed that way. But that feeling of relief and security was quickly shattered.

With TrumpenFuhrer it gets worse hour by hour not day by day.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 10:28 AM

19. I tried to get my husband to buy a condo on Bonaire two summers ago...

and he wouldn't do it. We have friends who have lived there--most of the year--for the last 25 years. They would have helped
us with advice about the paperwork.

I can't get my husband to give up his practice (he's 74). It's driving me crazy. I want out...willing to go to Hawaii or St. John or St. Croix
even though US very isolated from the gun nuts and bigots all over the mainland...if hubby won't do another country.

We also do have permanent resident visas for Panama--long story involving the decision to create an escape hatch during the Bushie boy years--but we
sold the property we were building there after our house here burned down in 2007 and Obama was elected we no longer felt the need. So we'd still
have to start all over again with bank accounts, etc and I don't think we could afford to buy in to the development 10 years later!

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Response to mnhtnbb (Reply #19)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 02:56 PM

31. If I didn't have a child I'd likely stay.

Stayed put throughout the Bush years. That being said I am concerned about who my son is raised around. Watched with horror how, in just a few months, Trump and Bannon has brought every stripe of radical right winger pouring out of the woodwork and is working hard to give them everything on their wishlist.

Despite dire predictions I don't see the far right populist parties in Germany (Alternative for Germany) and the Nethelands (PVV - Geert Wilder's outfit) taking over their respective governments anytime soon. Also while LePen has the best shot at the presidency she's ever had I don't think she'll make it.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 01:10 AM

5. I've thought about moving to Europe

I'm actually a dual US/EU citizen.

The EU country? Yep, it's the UK, which has screwed everything up by voting for Brexit. I'm not even sure Britain would be an improvement over the US at this point.

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Response to VMA131Marine (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 01:25 AM

8. Not thrilled that the citizenship program my partner and I are applying for

was started by Viktor Orban, Europe's own Trump clone, but that crimson passport is a key that opens 31 doors (EU plus Norway, Iceland and Switzerland).

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Response to VMA131Marine (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 02:15 AM

10. I live in the UK

And I'd much rather be here than the US. And I'm a dual national too.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 01:19 AM

7. My stupid bf

is a citizen of a euro country but I cant get him to marry me. Pisses me off.

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Response to oldtime dfl_er (Reply #7)


Response to oldtime dfl_er (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 07:29 AM

14. Get rid of him and find another citizen ot a Euro country who will. nt

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 02:32 AM

11. I really want out, too, but I can't leave my family, and my husband has an excellent job.

I have distant cousins in Norway and Sweden, who I communicate with, so the thought has definitely crossed my mind, but I can't leave my elderly mom, mother-in-law, daughters, son-in-law, two grandkids (one who is only 4 years old), and so forth. If I could transplant all of us, though, I'd like to go! Who needs this? I want to live where people use common sense and believe in a safety net, and free college, paid maternity leave, single-payer or some type of health care for all citizens and not just the lucky, and where people care about the environment and are actually doing something to move towards clean energy.

Instead, we have citizens who vote in the very people who want to take an ax to Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the Affordable Care Act; who think climate change is a hoax; who think health care is not a necessity and don't mind if drug prices are sky high; who think the minimum wage should be abolished or never increased; who continually give tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires; who want to ramp up coal production and oil drilling and pipelines; who think that despite having a huge military, it should be increased some more; and also who think that a narcissistic, racist, bigot, pussy grabbing conman and know-nothing is worthy of the presidency.

And it never ceases to amaze me that people on the right claim to care about security and want to ban all Muslims, yet see nothing wrong with the ease at which almost anyone can buy guns in this country, even those who have anger issues, mental health problems, domestic violence backgrounds, little to no training, and so on. The vast majority of us are more likely to be shot by a fellow American than be killed by a terrorist. They also don't think about the fact that if they want to blame everyone in a religion for the behavior of a few, then all Christians need to be banned for the terrorism of Timothy McVey and others in this country, such as the KKK. They don't even think things through whatsoever. Yes, so I'm tired of their hypocrisy and double standards and stupidity.

But I'm stuck here and my only option is to stay and resist with all my might.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 03:45 AM

12. I often wondered

how many Americans would make good on their pledge to pack up and leave the country if Drumpf got elected. Obviously it was easier said than done for a lot of folks, but a fraction of them must be keeping their word, like you GoS.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 04:51 AM

13. I don't blame you.

I have been very happy living in Toronto, because I LOVE this city. That was the overriding factor in deciding to stay here, rather than go back to my native NY. Being in Canada had little to do with it - being in Toronto was the big draw.

Of course, I have always been grateful for the healthcare here - but it still wasn't THE reason for staying.

With Trump's election, that has changed. I am no longer just grateful for being in a city I love - I am grateful for being in this country.

But be advised that you can never escape your ties to the US. Although I feel safe from Trump's madness here, I still lose sleep over what can or will happen to my country and my countrymen. I still worry endlessly over my friends and relatives still living in the States. Watching the destruction from a distance is better than living in the eye of the storm - but you still feel its effects no matter where you are.

That being said, Godspeed.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 11:36 AM

23. Are you sure Toronto is safe?

Free enough, far enough away?

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 07:32 PM

37. Given that I am in Canada ...

... yes, I am safe here - safe from Trump's EOs, safe from Republicans passing discriminatory legislation against women's rights and LGBT rights, safe from Evangelicals influencing gov't policy, safe from bankruptcy due to medical expenses, safe from the consequences of lax gun laws, etc.

Trump's bluster stops at the border. We here are not subject to his idiocy, or his policies.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 09:01 AM

15. I want to leave, too.

Anywhere is fine, but no one wants us.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 09:26 AM

16. I'm in the same process. Hope to be gone in 6 months.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 10:21 AM

18. I don't blame you.

My daughter has lived in Germany since 2009. I often harass her about moving back to the States, but mostly I am just messing with her. She is exactly where she needs to be for her career. And she loves traveling and has been all over Europe.

Since the election, I'm glad she's in Germany. I think she's far safer there.

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Response to fleur-de-lisa (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 02:37 PM

29. my daughter has lived in Paris for the last five years.

And off and on before that. And she, too, is exactly where she needs to be for her career. She likes traveling by train--has gone to Denmark, Spain, Germany, Gr. Britain, Hungary, and Italy so far.

She's had hassles with the French bureaucracy--permanent residency card, etc. Everything takes an ice age to come through. Although her cat got his "passport" right away--a naturally born French cat citizen, I guess!

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 10:34 AM

20. We have French friends in Aix--have known them 30 some years--

who live within walking distance of the old city center of Aix. We last visited them in 2014.

I didn't know that buying property in France would make you eligible for a long stay visa. There must
be a minimum euro value required? I have an American friend who recently received his 10 year visa--lives in Lyon--
but he married a French national and is also employed. We'd both be retired.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 10:41 AM

21. Feel the same

I've got my Mom and Dad in their late 70's or I'd be gone too.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 11:30 AM

22. France would not be an improvement over the U.S.

There is lots of Islamophobia, xenophobia, and racism, not to mention a deep, unconscious, and extreme sexism there. Perhaps, if you're white and Christian, you won't be too bothered by the openly expressed French hatred against black people, Arabs, and Muslims. But the xenophobia, not to mention class and nationality-based snobbery, extends to a resentment of Americans. You will never fit into French society; you will always be treated as an outsider. I love France for vacation, but I would much rather live in the U.S. than in France. There is a good chance that this country and its institutions will survive Trump. I'm not so hopeful for France under Le Pen.

After all, France is a country where you're still expected to put a photograph on a job application. It is a place where if you're a woman of childbearing age, you will be asked at every job interview whether you are involved with someone and whether you plan to have children. It's a place where a man forcing himself upon a hotel maid is seen primarily as a question of privacy. And that's just the sexism.

In towns across France, mayors have recently been forcing schools to serve pork for lunch - something observant Muslims and Jews don't eat. In 2004, France passed a law that prohibits girls from wearing the hijab in public schools. There is "extraordinary" discrimination against Muslim job applicants. In France, if you're Muslim or have an Arabic-sounding name, even if you were born in France, many people will not consider you French. This is a level of discrimination that is unthinkable in the U.S. If you were born in the United States, no one gets to tell you that you're "not really an American".

If you can still change your mind, I would urge you to reconsider. The reality is that the rightward move is a worldwide phenomenon. We just happen to be living through it, like millions of people have throughout history. The only solution is to fight it in your tiny corner of the world. No one is truly safe anywhere.

(Edited to add specific examples of anti-Muslim discrimination in France.)

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Response to athena (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 01:29 PM

24. "There is a good chance that this country and its institutions will survive Trump"

Disagree. It barely survived Shrub and he paid lip service to the idea of democracy. TrumpenFuhrer is openly contemptuous of it. With a high probability of SCOTUS becoming a 6-4 or worse conservative majority it's will be a mere rubber stamp to the 'Bagger agenda. I fully expect to see all of the following to receive favorable decisions within the next 8 years

Strict voter photo ID
Immunity for cops who shoot first, ask questions later
National right to work
Gutting Roe v. Wade
Religious freedom decisions legalizing LGBT discrimination
Drug testing for assistance including food stamps

I'd rather take my chances in a place that has an institution like the ECHR keeping an eye on things than a compliant, partisan life appointed Supreme Court.


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Response to athena (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 02:19 PM

25. This was just sent to me by a friend who lives in Paris.

"The 2017 French presidential election is in full swing. With first round voting scheduled for April 23rd and a second round May 7th. The main candidates are, François Fillon (Les Républicains, center-right), Marine Le Pen (Front national, right-wing populist), Emmanuel Macron (En Marche!, center) and Benoît Hamon (Parti socialiste, left). With outsiders as Jean-Luc Mélenchon (La France insoumise, left), Yannick Jadot (Europe Ècologie - Les Verts, center-left), Nicolas Dupont-Aignan (Debout la France, right), Philippe Poutou (Nouveau Parti anticapitaliste, far-left), Nathalie Arthaud (Lutte Ouvrière, far-left) and Jacques Cheminade (Solidarité et progrès).

This election marks the first time in France's Fifth Republic, that a president - François Hollande will not seek reelection after a first term. According to opinion polls Hollande is the most unpopular president in modern French history.
Initially it was thought this election was François Fillon's to lose. Fillon's come from behind win in Les Républicains primary in November seemed all he needed to be victorious in May. Hollande's record discredited his Parti socialiste in the eyes of many voters to the point where its candidate, Hamon could come in fourth or even fifth in first round voting. All that changed for Fillon, when in late January it was discovered that he paid (with public money) his Welsh wife - Penelope up to €10,000 a month as a parliamentary assistant when Fillon was a deputy in France's National Assembly. Penelope was also paid large sums to work for a literary publication owned by a friend of Fillon. This 'affair' is now know as 'Penelopegate' in France.
It's not illegal for French MPs to hire family members, they have a staff budget. Fillon also hired two of his children but for someone who wants to cut down on government spending and downsize the French civil service, it sure looks hypocritical. Fillon has said he'll step aside if indicted, it's not clear what work Penelope did but there is now a police investigation and if it's found she was being paid for doing nothing, then an indictment could be in the works.

Where does this leave the election? Well Le Pen must be loving it, as she spins Penelopegate to show an out of touch political establishment and how France is ready to elect her à la Donald Trump. That begs the question, could Le Pen be elected? Anything is possible but one big difference between France and the US is that France elects its president by popular vote. Le Pen would need to get a majority, something her Front national hasn't had an easy time doing outside of a few municipalities. Also Le Pen is running with the support of her Front national and not the support of one of France's more traditional political parties.

The real wildcard in this election is Macron. He was Hollande's aide and then Finance Minister but left in August 2016 to start En Marche! He's doing better than many thought and could make it into the second round in the wake of Penelopegate. Macron's running from the center, as neither left or right. In recent history that hasn't been a great recipe for winning a presidential election but maybe times have changed. The fact that Hamon, aka, France's Bernie Sanders received the Parti socialiste nomination opens up some room for Macron and the support from those in the Parti socialiste who are more social democrats than socialists. Hamon's main policy proposal is universal income of €700 per month for all, regardless of income. "

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 02:21 PM

26. Next year

April/May time frame. We already have property in Italy and as my husband says "I want to go home". He doesn't feel it's safe for me here.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 02:25 PM

27. Will be visiting Sydney Australia soon.... Should be interesting after Trump's remarks!

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 02:26 PM

28. I have the opposite reaction. I had been planning to move out of New York after 9/11.

I lived in NYC at the time. After the attack, I decided there was no way. I'm staying. I live just outside the city now, but I'll never leave the area.

Same with now. This is MY country. If you are going to ruin it, at the very least I will be in your face and making your life miserable. Not going anywhere.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #28)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 03:19 PM

32. +1

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 02:49 PM

30. France?

I'd wait to see if Le Pen gets defeated first. Otherwise, you may not want to live there either.

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Response to AlexSFCA (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 05:20 PM

33. See my earlier post.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 05:40 PM

34. Bon Voyage

I wouldn't think of leaving. Here is where the fight is and here is where I want to stay.

Good luck to you!

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #34)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 06:07 PM

35. As the expression goes, I'm getting too old for this shit.

I did the whole anti-war thing during the 60's and beyond.

We're just putting this in place and it's going to take more than 18 months. And will continue to fight.

But, I'd rather live in Europe. I have tired of the way that culture has changed and degraded in the US. And having lived abroad before, I really don't think that the US is the pinnacle of civilization. In fact, it has become the nadir in many respects.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 3, 2017, 06:19 PM

36. I don't blame you. You've done your time, you're entitled to seek some peace.

Though I'm sure you know that Europe today also is not the same as it was.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Sat Feb 4, 2017, 01:39 AM

38. If I could go it would be Australia.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Sat Feb 4, 2017, 01:58 AM

39. best of luck to both of you n/t

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Response to GoneOffShore (Original post)

Sat Feb 4, 2017, 04:37 AM

40. Don't blame you one bit, I would blow this pop stand if I could. Not financially able to, sadly.

Enjoy your stress and tRump free new life abroad.

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