Why Do Europeans Dislike Americans So Much?

[YoshidaYui]

[captain queeg]

1. Full disclosure; I didn't watch the video. But I read a post a few days ago by a European discussing

His American friends and how he was disgusted with them. He said he asked a couple dozen of them after they complained about various topics, and not a single one votes. He just couldn’t understand them. And neither do I.

[Irish_Dem]

2. Maybe if Europe stopped free riding and paid their fair share of defense spending

Americans could have the same standard of living and safety net as they do.
And be a more modern and educated country.

Barack Obama said he was unhappy with European free riders.

[CTyankee]

3. Fair point. But culturally, some Europeans have legitimate gripes.

We sometimes go over and treat their wines like guzzlers and drink to just get drunk. And they truly don't understand why we think our health care isn't universal and why we think they are crazy for not wanting the "system" of health care we have here.

But I am a cultural snob myself, I admit it.

[Irish_Dem]

4. Yes I know they do have legit gripes.

But when Europe bashes the US for not have the same standard of living that that do,
it is galling when we provide their military security for free.

[Celerity]

7. I can assure you both of my other 2 nations (UK and Sweden) are not free riders

Also, even if the US spent spent far less on its MIC, it would still not have many of the social democratic superstructures like we do, especially in Sweden.

The US will not bin the profit motive to any degree remotely similar that we do in terms of healthcare, education, etc etc.

[Irish_Dem]

8. The entire European continent benefits from US protection and world order.

Last edited Sat Jun 3, 2023, 07:47 PM - Edit history (1)

Clearly highlighted by the recent events in Ukraine.
Joe Biden had to twist European arms to make them step up to the plate.
And now the US is paying a fortune to protect all of Europe from Russian aggression.

The US saved Europe's bacon in WWI and WWII.
And has been keeping the peace there for them since that time at great cost.

I don't disagree that the US is a shit hole country compared to Europe.
But maybe if we didn't bail Europe out of two wars and pay to keep European peace
we could afford better education here in the US which would help people
become better citizens.

And it might be nice for Europe to acknowledge some of these facts.
And to start bailing themselves out of trouble and pay their own way.
Then maybe the US could pump some money towards its own citizens.

ETA: The US also paid for the economic recovery of Europe and developed the Marshall Plan
which laid the groundwork for the great recovery of Europe and the social network they now enjoy.

[Celerity]

10. The Soviet Union did more to stop Hitler in WWII than the USA did. The size of the battles and the

casualties in the Eastern European theatres dwarfed the Western European theatres.





Superb podcast on this

Hardcore History 27-30 – Ghosts of the Ostfront Series


Ep. 1

https://archive.org/details/27-ghosts-of-the-ostfront-i-hardcore-history

Ep. 2

https://archive.org/details/28-ghosts-of-the-ostfront-ii-hardcore-history

Ep. 3

https://archive.org/details/29-ghosts-of-the-ostfront-iii-hardcore-history

Ep. 4

https://archive.org/details/30-ghosts-of-the-ostfront-iv-hardcore-history_202203

An incredible series that brings the war in the East into sharp focus. Dan Carlin draws information from a multitude of sources, first hand accounts, diaries & letters to bring the time to life and populate the history with personalities and colour.

His extraordinary enthusiasm for history is infectious and his delivery oozes with atmosphere, giving you plenty of ideas for further reading should you wish to focus on any particular part of the conflict.


Part 1

Dan introduces the series with a discussion about 'monuments'. Everyone is familiar with cultural or artistic monuments, but here he talks about monuments in their broader sense: the everlasting marker of an event. Enter the 'monument' that is the Steppes of Southern Russia. The plains that go on for hundreds of square miles. The plains that are carpeted in human bones that crunch under foot if one were to walk around. A local calls it a 'bone field' that extends for further than the eye can see in the countryside around Volgograd - otherwise known as Stalingrad.

This haunting first episode is a fascinating introduction into the suffering and destruction of Hitler's Wermacht on the plains of Russia. Carlin highlights how 2 governments under the control of single malignant, despotic personalities get out of control and the ultimate effect on human beings.

Dan looks back at Napoleon's ill-fated Russian campaign, how the weather extremes (in both summer and winter) contributed to the French General's dramatic defeat. Hitler was keenly aware of this lesson and Carlin goes on to examine what contextual circumstances surrounding the planning of the attack led to the final, imprudent advance into Soviet territory.


Part 2

Carlin introduces the second episode by showing Hitler as a gambler - the bet to attack Russia was based on 2 assumptions: that her power structure was rotten and just as weak as the monarchy during WW1; and that her people were essentially subhumans and incapable of resistance.

The initial startling advances due to Blitzkrieg and Stalin's insistence to his troops to not fight back astonished everybody - he refused to believe that the Germans had attacked despite evidence to the contrary. Hitler's focus changed after nearly a month, and the armies targeting Moscow were re-designated to wipe out Soviet defence forces instead - his superstition to not follow Napoleon's mistakes was absolute and in hindsight, his first major error.

The rest of the episode details the difficulties the Germans encounter through letters, eyewitness diaries and second hand sources. Civilians saw no difference in the change of despotic rule; Russian resistance was fanatical, the roads (more like mud tracks) were appalling and 'Directive 34' to refocus on Ukraine led the Wehrmacht further astray.


Part 3

This episode opens with an examination of the fighting strength of the Germans after the first round of engagements, and how their estimate of the Soviet power was woefully inadequate. Hitler's armies had lost many of their veteran NCOs and mid-tier Commanders from the previous year's Barbarossa, posts now filled with inexperienced troops. A shell of its former self and despite capturing huge areas of Russia, the Wehrmacht still had a far larger task ahead of it: 'Operation Blue' - target the Caucasus oil fields.

Carlin describes how the 'tone' of the war changed in the East. The West was a 'gentlemanly' war - this theater wasn't comparable. German massacres in Soviet cities; Soviets making roads out of captured soldiers, hosing them down with water in sub-zero temperatures - atrocities on both sides, a hateful conflict.

The analysis continues, showing how the Germans completely underestimated the strength of the Soviet army & partisan activity: the inclusion of women caught them by total surprise. The ruthlessness of some of the women's sniper units, the daring of their night bombers, the brothels to support the morale of the male troops all added up to a swelling of combat personnel by around 40%, contributing to the pressure on the now hopelessly outnumbered Wermacht.


Part 4

Operation Citadel. Hitler had run out of ideas for offensives and the 1943 plans were developed by senior Generals.

Unlike the previous two years, the Germans chose to attack where the Soviets knew they were going to: the Russian salient around Kursk. The High Command was full of arrogance - how could they stand up to all this new, more powerful technology? Some Generals on the Chiefs of Staff were not convinced. Neither were most of the soldiers.

The battle of Kursk was gathering. The amount of war materiél built up was unsurpassed before or since: 37 divisions, roughly 900,000 men, 2,500 tanks & assault guns, 10,000 guns and 1,800 aircraft on the German side. Facing off against them were 1,300,000 deeply fortified Soviet troops, 8000 landmines per sq. mile, 3000 tanks, 20,000 guns, 2,500 aircraft and 3000 miles of trenches. This broke one of the major rules of warfare - the attacker should hold at least a 3:1 advantage in numbers; the High Command thought that tanks would make up for this deficit, but professional Generals knew better.

Battle lines were drawn.

The Battle of Kursk lasted for 10 days or so, and more men and armament met in combat than in any time before in history...

This episode continues to discuss the darkest periods of the Eastern Front campaign; atrocities, cruelties and massacres. Not for the faint of heart.


Conclusion

This series is a highly recommended listening - it will open your eyes to the reality of the worst that Humanity can offer during war, and really is a fascinating insight into the background, reasoning and feelings of Generals through to Privates. If you want an introduction into what actually went on, there is no better place to start than this.

[Irish_Dem]

12. Absolutely a total shameful distortion of reality. Really shameful.

No one ever gives the Soviet Union credit for saving Europe because it is simply not true.
Without US involvement in WWII, all of Europe would be under Nazi German control.

Too many DUers had close family members who fought in WWII, were injured or killed to let this comment go.
And the US taxpayer bore the brunt of the costs as outlined below.

Winston Churchill said that one of his best days was the day Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.
That was the day he knew that Europe would win the war. Stalin was of little or no use to Churchill.
It was the US which would save the day.

The US paid the Soviets $11 billion to fight in WW II. And their sacrifice of men meant nothing to Stalin.
In his eyes men were meant for the meat grinder.

Europe had been steamrollered or caved into Hitler. England was holding on by the skin of its teeth.
France had the best Army in the world during WWII but it caved in totally to Hitler. France even collaborated
with the Nazis with their disgraceful Vichy government.

The US spent a fortune fighting in WWII with blood and treasure. The US gave over $50 billion to
Europe during the war. And 3 million men were sent to fight on European soil. The US presence turned
the tide in the war and without our involvement Europe would have lost the war. We sent our best and
brightest. US Gen. Eisenhower led the dangerous DDAY invasion to save Europe from Hitler with a great
cost of American lives.

The US paid for the economic recovery of Europe after the war and developed the Marshall plan which
laid the groundwork for the wonderful good life Europe now enjoys. The US taxpayers paid $13 billion
for that plan which is the equivalent to $173 billion today.

US troops have been stationed in Europe since WWII to provide security and protection.
Cost to US taxpayers is in the $billions.

During the Ukraine crisis, as per usual, Europe looked to the US to fund Ukraine.
Many European countries had sweetheart deals with Putinand didn't want to lose Russian revenue.
As usual, Europe wanted the US to do the heavy lifting and pay all the bills. Europe also knew it was
protected by NATO which of course the US pays a huge chunk to support.
The US supporting Ukraine was protecting all of Europe as well.

Thank God Biden kissed or kicked Europe into doing its fair share.
I don't know if Biden used his Irish charm, his Irish cussing/temper, or superb political skills,
but he got Europe off their duffs and made them start doing the right thing.

Europe denying the US role in WWII is a disgrace, they should hang their heads in shame.

[Celerity]

13. Get back to me when the US has taken in 50 million war refugees over a 28 year or so

period like Sweden (in US population adjusted equivalent numbers) did from 1991 to 2019. One city here, south of Stockholm, (Södertälje) took in more Iraqi refugees from the illegal 2003 US invasion and subsequent war than the US and Canada combined (at least during the first 7 years).

In 2007, we took in around 700,000 (US population-adjusted equivalent) to the US's 7,000. In 2006, we took in closing in on half of the amount the entire industrialised world took in.

All you have to do to see the pattern of Swedish refugee intake going back far before that is to look at American coups d'état and murder wars starting with the CIA-powered coup (Operation Ajax) of Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of the shah, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, on 19 August 1953. Of course the brutal US-backed Shah regime eventually lead to the Islamic Revolution (new enemy!) and all that has followed, including the US backing Saddam Hussein before they didn't.

A few years back (2018) we went to a Sweden v Chile football game with some Chilean friends in Friends Arena in Solna (right north of Stockholm), and around 2/3rds to 3/4ers of the 48,000 plus there were Chileans. Why so many Chileans here? Because of another murder coup the US CIA did in 1973 (Salvador Allende), just one of many in Central and South america the US did from 1968 to 1989 in Operation Condor.

Please do not come calling us free riders when we stepped up and gladly accepted the US population-adjusted equivalent of tens upon tens of millions of refugees who fled US global skulduggery post WWII. Over 30 per cent (and rising) of our population is first, second and now third generation non western European descent, the vast bulk of them coming as refugees from wars and coups the US kicked off.


you said

Europe denying the US role in WWII is a disgrace, they should hang their heads in shame.

Absolute non sequitur, as I never denied the US role. I just added factual context to the military battles in East Europe being vastly larger than in West Europe, and more destructive to the Nazi war machine. Hitler had to fight a 2 front war, take away the horrific (far beyond the Western front in scope) Eastern front meat grinder and short of nukes, the US and the Allies would have had a damn near impossible task, as least for many many years. The Nazis would have consolidated and utterly fortified the entire West European territory (including eventually taking us down in Sweden), along with the Italians (who they would have been able to vastly help more if not for the Soviets), etc. They also likely could have helped Japan a lot more too, in the Pacific theatre.

This entire 'Europe as free riders' meme makes me sick to my stomach, and frankly, plays right into a massive RW talking point.

My present continent of domicile (for most of my life), Europe, has suffered under massive wars for literally thousands of years, whilst, post War of 1812, other than the terrible blood cost of the US Civil War, the white American power structure's main militarism and supremacy constructs on its own soil have been to dominate and/or enslave and/or kill the indigenous populations, the Africans who were hauled over in chains as chattel property, and other assorted POC. It has been also pretty good at exporting that misery to POC (starting with the Philippines and parts of the Caribbean in the late 19th and early 20th century, to keep it relatively modern in empiric scope) around the planet far too often.

[captain queeg]

14. Thanks for posting this series. I'll check it out when I have more time

I’ve always been interested in WWII. It was the most significant event in human history. Like most Americans I grew up with a lopsided view of the war. The last few years I’ve read a lot about the eastern front. The soviets carried the bulk of the fighting against Germany while the US defeated the Japanese almost single handedly. The results affected the entire world.

[jimfields33]

11. 100 percent true!!!!!

[japple]

5. Thank you for posting this YoshidaYui. I completely understand why

many people in other countries are confused/conflicted about their view of America. They really seem to like the American people they have met, but are turned off by what they're seeing on our media. Guns, crime, tRUMP, McDonalds, etc. Feeling a bit that way myself. If you didn't watch the video but are just here for the comments, take 15 minutes and watch it.

[enid602]

6. Smoke

The French, Dutch and Belgians are upset because we no longer smoke.

[YoshidaYui]

9. oh SOME OF US SMOKE, JUST not TOBACCO

AND yeah, there are quite a few legal weed states.

[zanana1]

15. I think we care too much about what other countries think of us.