The Price of Pleasure - Noam Chomsky on Pornography

[seabeyond]

Last edited Mon Mar 26, 2012, 11:30 AM - Edit history (2)

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[originalpckelly]

1. As we all know, all pornography involves women...

is only made for money, and no one would ever want to show themselves off to the world if they have assets that might be desirable to the masses.

[freshwest]

2. Copy & paste the link opened by clicking the Share option beneath the video on youtube. Here it is:

Now I'll watch the video. But I won't comment. No use discussing the issue. n/t And by n/t, I mean I won't discuss it. So I'm leaving this thread, hope that helps you to post videos in the future.

[seabeyond]

3. thanks.

i dont care if anyone replies. i was surprised by chomsky.

thanks for teaching me. sure was hard. share didnt do it, ... had to hit embedded. will have to look at it again, make sure i remember. i am totally computer illiterate.

appreciate it

[freshwest]

4. I had originally posted the entire link, and it showed the last part below and looked sloppy.

Um, but it didn't do it this time, haha. So I started using the copy and paste under Share as suggested by Tx4Obama.

I use Firefox, and didn't see what you mentioned, the Embed option under Share, but found something brand new, being able to start the video at a certain place. Which would get to the point being made instead of the whole video.

As far as Chomsky, he has a clear vision of the power dynamics behind human relationships and how they are coerced. I was not surprised by him at all.

There are such things as forced choices, not free choices. And as you see in this video by Zinn which I used the other method that you did, there is a lot of pressure. I guess in reference to your OP, some see any resistance to this form of commerce, which it has become, is fear they will be denied the right to consume the commerical product as their own personal pleasure. We see the same in the brand wars on computers, a lot of that is grasping at straws.

Much of what is emotional is not logical, can't take into account the consequence on others, thus is seen as a loss and will be attacked with any verbal tools that can be found. Sex is an activity steeped in strong emotions, or it cannot occur.

Oh, and n/t.

[seabeyond]

6. 'Oh, and n/t'

lmfao... you are so funny. but i like what you say and agree. now i need to go out and find some more videos to practice on cause i dont think i totally get it. i admire you all that know what the shit you are talking about. how wonderful to be able to like, start where ever.

now i am going to listen to YOUR video. thanks.

and NT, really

[freshwest]

5. Okay now, I see you attempted it and it left those terms there. I'll see how it came through now.

Everybody ready now: Lights, action!

I see video! Congratulations.

I hereby declare you 'computer literate.'

So go on with your bad self, GF.

[seabeyond]

7. lol. my computer hubby would be so proud. nt

[redqueen]

8. I don't think we should ban porn, but...

it is disturbing that the left seems to be pretty much ignoring the serious issues related to it. For some reason liberals only see the GOP's side of the war on women.

For some reason, widespread abuses in other industries are deserving of attention; but widespread abuses in this particular industry are dismissed if not outright ignored/denied.

For some reason, cultural conditions which serve to promote violence as an acceptable idea and a rational way to settle conflicts is a huge problem; but cultural conditions which serve to overhype sexuality and promote unhealthy ideas about human sexuality (e.g. the way that it serves to legitimize violence against women and children) are ignored.

[seabeyond]

9. i cannot quietly sit as we point the finger at the right, as a whole, while we

do our utmost to denigrate women. what sense does that make.

[izquierdista]

10. Two words that kill your argument

Gay porn. There's a good subset of porn that doesn't denigrate women, because women are TOTALLY ABSENT.

What I find interesting is that men, either straight or gay, are more interested in visual porn, while women are more interested in story type porn (i.e. romance novels). There is plenty for behavioral biologists to study, but I'm afraid that whatever they find out about the subject, we won't be able to modify our behavior as it is hard-wired in.

[seabeyond]

11. no. gay porn is not an argument. and never has been.

for many different reasons that i have taken the time to explain and then is ignored.

[izquierdista]

12. I don't think we have had this discussion

After you explain it to me, I'll let you know if it makes sense or if it should be ignored. How does gay porn degrade women? Because the 'bottom' is a fill-in for the woman's role? How then do you explain 'versatile' gays?

[redqueen]

13. Where the 'sex industry' is concerned,

liberals suddenly become libertarians and wash their hands of any concern for exploited labor.

It makes perfect sense if you take privilege into consideration.

[seabeyond]

15. liberals suddenly become libertarians and wash their hands of any concern for exploited labor.

this is very good....

[redqueen]

14. Kick

[NoMoreWarNow]

16. does porn have to be degrading or exploitative?

seems to me that it could be done in a beneficial way for all concerned.

[seabeyond]

17. from all i have read, seems to me the hetro male prefers the woman to be degraded or exploitative

it is a consistent in hetro male porn. it escalates to be more and more violent, exploitative meeting the needs that need greater stimulation and excitement.

Pornography and the End of Masculinity

I have always been part of the collective liberal progressive libertarian value system that accepts pornography as a legitimate expression of the First Amendment. Part of that thinking is that women participate in porn films of their own free will and that porn often represents fantasies -- though sometimes quasiviolent or degrading -- that people actually have. So as long as people are merely acting in porn films and there is no coercion, or law-breaking, it is acceptable.

But I've changed my mind. No, I'm not a prude, or anti-sex. Nor do I think there should be a national campaign to snuff out all porn. In fact, I sometimes watch certain kinds of porn. But what has become clear to me is that, under the guise of the First Amendment, a huge and powerful porn industrial complex has grown out of control. And a big part of its growth is fueled, not just by the internet, but by continually upping the ante, increasing the extremes of degradation for the women in tens of thousands of films made every year. I am convinced, although it is, of course, difficult to document, that the huge audiences for porn and the pervasiveness of the themes and behaviors of degradation are having a negative impact on the way men behave and the way society treats women.

Sexism and attitudes toward women were supposed to have gotten better after the 1960s and the feminist movement. The sons of boomers were going to be different. And while perhaps that is true in some cases, what we have instead is more violence against women and more social acceptance of demeaning male attitudes and behaviors that would have been considered out of bounds 20 or 30 years ago. As a society, we've gone backwards. Part of my thinking on pornography has been shaped by seeing what is on the internet myself, and part, by reading Robert Jensen's powerful and provocative book, excerpted below: Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity. Jensen has convinced me that something as powerful as the porn industry and its sexual extremism must not be kept under the rug due to liberal shoulder-shrugging about the First Amendment. The porn industry should not enjoy our collective denial in terms of its real-world impact on women -- and men -- simply because we might be berated by First Amendment purists or be uncomfortable grappling with complex issues of sexual expression.

The debate must be pushed, and the consciousness raised. Many will say, don't mess with the issue because it's a slippery slope and could lead to the repression of other freedoms. I've concluded we need to take that chance. Male attitudes are potentially being shaped by ugly and sometimes disgusting abuse toward women. And tens of thousands of young women are being seduced and intimidated into lives of extreme public humiliation on-screen. The impact on their lives over the long run could be devastating.

http://www.alternet.org/sex/62833/

___________________________

this is only a small snip of the article and not the true argument. if you are really interested, you need to read the whole of it. there is plenty of info out there

[redqueen]

18. Thanks for posting that link.

Robert Jensen really gets it. I really like the excerpt from his book where he tells his friends (who think he's too hard on men) about that site.

[NoMoreWarNow]

19. depends on how you define porn

I've never found movies of sex very interesting, and I hate the way the women always do oral sex first... very boring and not stimulating at all.

But I have enjoyed pictures of beautiful women, certainly, and I don't see the harm in that.

[redqueen]

20. And this too.

The left has really let women down by turning a blind eye to this insanely profitable industry.

Greed and entitlement. What a heady mix.