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Sat Jul 28, 2018, 02:55 PM

LA Times 7/28 --- Was The 2016 Election Legitimate?

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-heffernan-trump-illegitimate-20180728-story.html




We need to talk about a forbidden subject: the legitimacy of the current president.

Thereís been a code of silence around President Donald Trumpís shady victory in 2016. Itís one of those tiptoe-around-it things that the American family just doesnít talk about. And with good reason. Whatever your politics, itís perilous to question the soundness of an American election.rder ó and grow harder to ignore.

A nation devoted to majority rule has a minority president. Who squeaked into office on an electoral college technicality. Against most data projections. Using dark money. Using voter suppression. Using Russian disinformation.

As more and more facts about Trumpís incongruous victory emerges, the doubts gnaw harder ó and grow harder to ignore.

44 replies, 7845 views

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Arrow 44 replies Author Time Post
Reply LA Times 7/28 --- Was The 2016 Election Legitimate? (Original post)
Grasswire2 Jul 2018 OP
Iliyah Jul 2018 #1
Mme. Defarge Jul 2018 #2
Grasswire2 Jul 2018 #3
DoctorJoJo Jul 2018 #5
aeromanKC Jul 2018 #11
OMGWTF Jul 2018 #20
yurbud Jul 2018 #33
Grasswire2 Jul 2018 #37
calimary Jul 2018 #28
yurbud Jul 2018 #34
Grasswire2 Jul 2018 #35
calimary Jul 2018 #39
Grasswire2 Jul 2018 #40
Grasswire2 Jul 2018 #4
Ferrets are Cool Jul 2018 #6
procon Jul 2018 #7
kairos12 Jul 2018 #8
NBachers Jul 2018 #9
Duppers Jul 2018 #10
NRaleighLiberal Jul 2018 #12
kennetha Jul 2018 #13
tomp Jul 2018 #17
LiberalLovinLug Jul 2018 #18
Amaryllis Jul 2018 #24
lagomorph777 Jul 2018 #25
kennetha Jul 2018 #27
calimary Jul 2018 #32
lagomorph777 Jul 2018 #42
Hekate Jul 2018 #41
lagomorph777 Jul 2018 #43
bucolic_frolic Jul 2018 #14
AlexSFCA Jul 2018 #15
SunSeeker Jul 2018 #16
ailsagirl Jul 2018 #19
calimary Jul 2018 #31
ailsagirl Jul 2018 #44
Racerdog1 Jul 2018 #21
malaise Jul 2018 #22
Grasswire2 Jul 2018 #36
Amaryllis Jul 2018 #23
calimary Jul 2018 #26
suston96 Jul 2018 #29
Gothmog Jul 2018 #30
Guilded Lilly Jul 2018 #38

Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 02:58 PM

1. Response to the title . . .

A big fat NO.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:02 PM

2. "Cue up your asterisks"

indeed!

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Response to Mme. Defarge (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:11 PM

3. yeah

George W* has carried his asterisk for 18 years now.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Reply #3)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:30 PM

5. George W** Should Have TWO Asterisks!

 

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Response to DoctorJoJo (Reply #5)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 04:14 PM

11. Everyone forgets about Ohio 2004

Diebold

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Response to aeromanKC (Reply #11)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 05:16 PM

20. Exactly.

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Response to DoctorJoJo (Reply #5)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:18 PM

33. We were called conspiracy theorists & nuts by MSM for saying this in 2000 & 2004

It drives me nuts that they are only now taking this seriously when it can be used to drum up a Cold War with Russia like our democracy isn't that important when ONLY Republicans are rigging the game.

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Response to DoctorJoJo (Reply #5)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:32 PM

37. TRUE! nt

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Response to Grasswire2 (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 05:21 PM

28. Grasswire2? Welcome to DU (because I always try to welcome those with low post counts).

I'm with the folks who'd make that TWO asterisks. Stolen election in 2000 and another one in 2004.

The ONLY way the CONS can win is if they cheat. If somebody with power and/or influence and/or strategic placement places a thumb on the scale. Let's not forget - those two times they had both. Katherine Harris who was Florida's republi-CON Secretary of State in 2000, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME serving as bush/cheney's state campaign manager. Then four years later, Kenneth Blackwell who was Ohio's republi-CON Secretary of State in 2000, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME serving as bush/cheney's state campaign manager. Neither of whom faced any conflict-of-interest challenges as they should have faced.

And then, 2016. And we ALL know what happened that year.

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Response to calimary (Reply #28)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:20 PM

34. and the ONLY way Trump got close enough to win was low & no info voters who knew him from TV

as well as firing up the racist base.

That celebrity trick worked once here in California with Schwarzenegger, but you can only pull that scam about once every generation and a half.

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Response to calimary (Reply #28)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:29 PM

35. Thank you Calimary...

.....but I really have more than 50,000 posts and joined in 2002. Was absent for more than a year, and then I simply couldn't access my old email account to reset the password and so DU recommended opening a new account.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Reply #35)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 12:46 AM

39. I wondered about that.

I've loved your stuff - and your unique sense of humor - for years.

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Response to calimary (Reply #39)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 12:58 AM

40. how kind...

....thanks again! It's nice to see old friends. But I'm sad that Octafish is apparently gone.


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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:12 PM

4. the comments are interesting nt

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:38 PM

6. Surely you jest....

just don't call me Shirley.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:46 PM

7. More headlines like this will start to appear now.

Public opinion will begin to shift as suspicion about Trump and Russia grows. The questions are evolving to take on a classic Nixonian theme: What did the president know, and when did he know it?



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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:54 PM

8. He's a fake and a treason.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 04:03 PM

9. It's well worth reading the entire article.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 04:13 PM

10. K & R & R & R

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 04:18 PM

12. the answer is absolutely not. It was the outcome of crimes.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 04:20 PM

13. Yes, definitely a question worth asking.

Last edited Sat Jul 28, 2018, 05:04 PM - Edit history (2)

In fact, it has been a question worth asking since the beginning. On my view, it has been the ONLY question worth asking since the beginning. Only the vapidness of our access-seeking press stopped it from, in fact, being THE question, and the only question from the start.

Strangely, the one person who seemed to get it was Trump himself. He and he alone knew from the beginning that the question would come to the fore, and come to the fore with trumpets blaring eventually. That is why he dismissed the Mueller probe from the very start. That is why he bragged about his crowd size. That is why he switched gears from 2012 when he predicted that Romney would win the popular vote but lose the electoral college and that this would be an outrage against democracy. Suddenly, he saw the "wisdom" of the electoral college.

The Media, though, was dying to let him off the hook. They wondered aloud again and again why he wouldn't just distinguish between legitimate questions about the Russian attempt to sabotage our democracy from pseudo questions about his own legitimacy, as they themselves were willing and eager to do. Just get on with being president, they urged him. And let us get on with covering you in your role as president. But here Trump had it right and the vapid, access seeking media -- who were at first eager to normalize Trump, so that they could get on with the playing their role as color commentators on the passing political show -- had it completely utterly wrong.

The questions of Russian sabotage and Trump's legitimacy could not possibly be separated, not for long, and not by people wiling to to take a cold hard look at what our dysfunctional political system has become. A people's media would have dug and dug from the beginning. It would have sought to lay bare how ripe for the pickings by malevolent agents both internal and external the electoral college makes us. A little voter suppression here, a successful influence operation there, a little corruption over here, and --presto chango -- the electoral college nullifies the collective vote of the people. And this time all it took was the swing of a mere 70,000 votes ... a rounding error ... out of the 130 or so million that were cast. And all this In the name ... of what? Only God, if he exists, now knows.

Once upon a time, the Founding Fathers knew. And knew well. In the name of enticing the reluctant South, with its minimal suffrage and its peculiar institution of slavery, to join the new Union and to set aside its inordinate fear that the political weight of the North within that new Union might, with a different electoral scheme, force the suffrage-stingy, slave rich South to abandon its beloved institution. But once the bloody war that that bargain made all but inevitable finally came, and slavery was finally abolished, and there was nothing left of the peculiar institution to preserve, what was the enduring point of the electoral college? To guard the nation against the will of the people, considered as self-governing corporate body, and to keep the choice of the presidency in the hands of a narrow cabal of wise electors? But by that time the narrow cabal had long been exposed as a mere hope and wish of the founders, a reality that was never to be. It had long been replaced by a merely mechanical vote weighting mechanism, devoid of even the pretense of being a deliberative body that would act on behalf of the nation and with greater wisdom than the people themselves could possibly muster.

That after two highly problematic elections, one decided by a usurping Supreme Court, in the name of "equal protection," one decided by an archaic dysfunctional mechanism that has no present day justification, the so-called American people have not taken to the streets en mass to demand better, but instead servilely and hopefully wait in an infantilized stupor for Mueller or perhaps the slumbering Congress to save them from this nightmare shows how devoid of true political agency we have become.

But this too was part of the founder's design all along. It never ceases to amaze me how a nation born of revolution managed to give birth to a constitution that so disempowered the very people in whose name that revolution was supposedly fought and won.

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Response to kennetha (Reply #13)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 04:52 PM

17. With all good intentions...

 

...would you please consider using paragraphs? thank you.

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Response to kennetha (Reply #13)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 04:58 PM

18. Good post

I might suggest though for future that it is much easier to read longer posts on a message board if you separate such a long post into say at least 4 separate sections. It becomes just a wall of words and many will just scroll down past it. Which is a shame because you raise some good points.

cheers

Edit: I see someone else made much the same suggestion while I was writing mine and posting. Don't mean to pile on.

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Response to kennetha (Reply #13)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 08:39 PM

24. McConnell and Ryan and other GOP knew since before teh election.

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Response to kennetha (Reply #13)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 04:52 PM

25. Excellent op-ed; please publish it in a big paper!

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 05:18 PM

27. Thanks, I'm trying.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:11 PM

32. L.A.Times is a pretty big paper!

Last edited Tue Jul 31, 2018, 12:51 AM - Edit history (1)

But I definitely do hope to see stuff like this pop up more and more in places like the Washington Post and the NYTimes. And internationally, too.

On edit - I'm glad to see that reference to trump's illegitimacy in print now. That's REALLY good to see. And may it be only the first of legions of such references from here on! The legitimacy of his so-called "pResidency" SHOULD be questioned. Because it's as questionable as can be.

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Response to calimary (Reply #32)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 03:15 PM

42. I wasn't referring to the OP; I was referring to kennetha's post.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #25)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 04:05 AM

41. Los Angeles Times is a regional giant

The world does not end at The Rockies.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #41)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 03:15 PM

43. I wasn't referring to the OP; I was referring to kennetha's post.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 04:33 PM

14. It was theft of democracy and resulted in theft of assets

all of which would never have occurred if the election were copper-bottom

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 04:35 PM

15. trump has been obsessed with this question

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 04:49 PM

16. The answer is obviously NO.

That was clear since 2016 to anyone paying attention.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 05:06 PM

19. I smelled a rat from Day One

Last edited Tue Jul 31, 2018, 08:04 PM - Edit history (1)

And I know nearly everyone on DU did as well

I have friends who say, "yes, but the electoral college says he won..."

I don't buy it

I never will

This has been an absolute NIGHTMARE



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Response to ailsagirl (Reply #19)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:04 PM

31. With ya, ailsagirl.

100% with you.

1000%.

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Response to calimary (Reply #31)

Tue Jul 31, 2018, 08:03 PM

44. Glad to hear it, calimary!!

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 05:23 PM

21. No Way!

 

Exit polling is now coming out in key states. Anyone looking at this can see that this is not a legitimate outcome.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 07:14 PM

22. Great to see you back

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Response to malaise (Reply #22)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 07:30 PM

36. thank you! nt

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 08:38 PM

23. So they are finally getting to that. Better late than never, i guess.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 04:56 PM

26. Answer? NO!

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 05:31 PM

29. But......but........but........

What do we do to remedy such an event?

Must there be action taken before the electoral votes are turned in?

Talk about a badly framed government.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 06:09 PM

30. K&R

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Response to Grasswire2 (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 11:51 PM

38. To the point answer: Nyet.

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