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Thu Feb 22, 2018, 10:58 AM

I need to get some stuff off my chest. (Guns-n-Laws)

When 45 goes out of his way to extol an entity or person, they usually turn out they have some major malfunction. Yay, NRA, for your "get".

AR-15s. Gun fans are arguing they are "not assault weapons." This is a semantical argument. My question is "why do you need these"? They're not a hunting rifle, they're not used by the military. True hunters fire one or two shots at a time and intend to kill their target with minimal damage hunting for sport or meat. The AR has a high capacity, high rate of fire, and is designed to mangle multiple targets to decrease survivability. The only "hunting" scenario for its use would seem when facing an advancing wildebeest stampede or an attacking herd of moose or bear. It's not a stealth weapon; it is a civilian war weapon the military won't use.

In a mass-shooter/massacre situation, a standard sidearm would still do damage, but at a much slower fire rate with necessary reloads, and victims have a higher chance of surviving a standard bullet wound than a tumbling round from the AR that rips flesh and maximizes bleeding. The only point of an AR-15 is to cut through hordes of living people, or perhaps dead people in a zombie apocalypse. And it probably gives gun nuts the "cool" factor they want, knowing they're ready when the government invades their compound.

I'm not a gun expert, so usually, the rebuttal I get when expressing this is that since I 'don't know what I'm talking about' I shouldn't have an opinion. I have an opinion whether I, my loved ones and other loved ones are shot. I don't care whether it's an assault weapon or not. Massacres are done at distance and with the intention of killing large groups in spectacular fashion with minimal danger to the shooter (witness: Vegas - the Vegas shooter likely could not have killed and injured so many people from that anonymous distance with a handgun or even a rifle that requires reloading.)

No, cars are not the same thing as guns; cars have a nonlethal purpose. But yes, we can certainly pass laws to register guns exactly as we do cars, which similarly are dangerous in the wrong hands and require training and classes to be licensed to operate. Just because you have a 'right to bear arms' does not mean the government cannot restrict the right to how much firepower a civilian needs to have at one time, and cannot require a registration fee to own. "Driving is not a right but guns are..." yeah, whatever, learn history and learn that technology and advancing culture necessitates modification to laws. There is a Constitutional amendment process because the Founding Fathers likely could foresee exactly this sort of situation.

Keep your handguns and your single-fire rifles and shotguns. Protect your family if you live in the remote area near bears or from a home invader. If you need to fire more than six times, you're doing it wrong.

I am incensed when gun fans interpret the 2nd amendment to mean they should be allowed to own any gun, any number of guns, any military weapon of mass destruction, and that's the first theorem in the geometry of gun-control. "People are allowed to have guns, so there will be school shootings and teachers need to be armed in case." That's not a world we want to live in. They neglect to understand removing guns from both sides balances the equation. Teachers don't need guns if the shooter can't get guns, or at least can't get a gun that optimizes their kill rate.

The NRA needs to shape up and become a society that provides actual safety classes and gun reforms, not a corporation who wants to sell a product. Otherwise, I have no problem passing a specific law banning them from donating to politicians and lobbying on Capitol Hill for their continued disregard of public safety by hindering laws that would keep people safer.

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Arrow 22 replies Author Time Post
Reply I need to get some stuff off my chest. (Guns-n-Laws) (Original post)
forgotmylogin Feb 2018 OP
roscoeroscoe Feb 2018 #1
Aristus Feb 2018 #4
forgotmylogin Feb 2018 #5
Aristus Feb 2018 #6
forgotmylogin Feb 2018 #9
BigmanPigman Feb 2018 #14
malthaussen Feb 2018 #10
forgotmylogin Feb 2018 #20
malthaussen Feb 2018 #22
Collimator Feb 2018 #2
TarponSnook Feb 2018 #3
Aristus Feb 2018 #7
forgotmylogin Feb 2018 #11
masmdu Feb 2018 #13
TarponSnook Feb 2018 #15
malthaussen Feb 2018 #8
forgotmylogin Feb 2018 #12
bluescribbler Feb 2018 #16
Nitram Feb 2018 #18
Nitram Feb 2018 #17
forgotmylogin Feb 2018 #19
raven mad Feb 2018 #21

Response to forgotmylogin (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:51 AM

1. Good points

My battle buddy here wrote his take: we should all be able to keep our muzzle loader in case the French invade again.

Works.

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Response to roscoeroscoe (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 12:38 PM

4. Invade? The French? Again?

When did the French invade us? And why would be fight them if they did?

Think of it: spectacular cuisine, fine fashions, breath-takingly beautiful women, thriving night life, national health care insurance, yearly paid vacation, high morale in the workplace, no 'at-will' employment.

If the French invaded, I'd let them...

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Response to Aristus (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 12:52 PM

5. I totally see your point and his!

If only wars were still fought by either side lining up 100 yards from each other in a field far from civilians, each furiously reloading powder and musket balls manually. The ancestors couldn't predict a Terminator-style high-speed massacre of multiple unarmed civilians.

It probably made crimes of "passion" difficult as well. "Stand right there while I sort you out, ruffian! (begins five-minute process of loading musket while potential target finishes croissant and escapes...)"

Original guns had a built-in cooldown!

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Response to forgotmylogin (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 01:02 PM

6. Have you ever seen the Richard Lester-directed "Three Musketeers" films?

There's a hilarious scene in which Count Rochefort breaks into the home of Monsieur and Madame Bonacieux one night to arrest them for their support of the Queen's affair with the English Duke of Buckingham.

Rochefort's henchmen carry away Madame Bonacieux, and Rochefort orders Bonacieux: "You will come with me."

Bonacieux dives under the bed, emerges with an old matchlock pistol, and fires it at Rochefort. It's empty, and snaps impotently when he pulls the trigger. There's a funny couple of moments during which he frantically tries to load the pistol, sprinkling gunpower down the barrel, dropping in a bullet and wadding, and trying ram it down with the ramrod, which he then clumsily drops down the barrel. He pauses, then dumps everything out onto the bed, and tries hastily to load the pistol again.

This whole time, Rochefort stands there impatiently, examining his gloves, yawning probably, then interrupts the pistol farce by calmly taking the weapon away from Bonacieux and repeating: "You will come with me..."

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Response to Aristus (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 01:16 PM

9. I have not, but that sounds hilarious!

Your description reminds me of this Looney Tunes classic cartoon from my childhood. Ah. Simpler times (?)

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Response to Aristus (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 03:44 PM

14. I know that scene!

That is about how high tech guns were when the Founding Fathers wrote the 2nd amend. Testosterone driven nuts use this as an excuse to have a military weapon. Next they will want to carry flame throwers.

250 years ago guns were for hunting for food (we have stores and freezers now) or to fight a foreign enemy's militia which very simple weapons almost like the 3 Musketeers (muskets). I am sick of gun supporters making ridiculous excuses.

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Response to Aristus (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 01:17 PM

10. 7 year's war, aka the French and Indian war...

... granted, the United States didn't exist at that time.

The US did have a bit of an undeclared dust-up with Revolutionary France in the 1790s, but they didn't invade us, just scuffled with some of our ships.

Sorry, I'd fight to the death for the right to not eat snails and frog's legs. There are limits, after all.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 01:59 AM

20. Man, at one point I never thought I'd eat snails.

But I actually got to try escargot at a restaurant and they are kind of yummy. They're seasoned with a butter and garlic sauce and served on delicate puff pastry. I found it more pleasant than eating a chicken gizzard.

Frog legs aren't worth the trouble, and frogs are awesome.

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Response to forgotmylogin (Reply #20)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 09:58 AM

22. Ah, well, there you have it...

... I wouldn't eat a chicken gizzard, either.

I sense a Lounge topic: food you wouldn't eat if your life depended on it.

-- Mal

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Response to forgotmylogin (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 12:12 PM

2. This is Excellent.

Which is probably why it won't get quite as many views or very many comments.

Your post is well-reasoned and well-crafted. Sensible ideas and examples abound.

If you cursed a bit and added a little more rage at or mockery of Republicans your post could pick up speed and be shared around. But there's still the problem with being too sensible.

You know that won't get you anywhere, don't you? Now, if you paired your thread title of "I need to get some stuff off my chest" with an image of a pretty young women filling out the chest area of a t-shirt nicely, then the internet would be beating a path to your door.

[Emoji for mild sarcasm tinged with sadness rather than bitterness at the realities of the world required.]

Very good writing, though--mean that.

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Response to forgotmylogin (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 12:30 PM

3. Today 02/22/2018 I surrendered my guns

 

No child shall ever die by a weapon of war or handgun. My son has been adjudicated mentally ill. He was arrested last year July 2017. Before his arrest, he had placed $320.00 on a purchase of a handgun at a local pawn shop in Tarpon Springs, Florida. He came home and told me so. I calmly spoke with him and advised him that was not a good decision. The next day he returned to the pawn shop and rescinded the purchase. I respect the second amendment and I had a FL CCW. The AR-15 is a weapon of war. Any handgun in the hands of an questionable person will kill a child. How can one determine if the person purchasing the gun has an intent of harming someone else. My choice ban all weapons of war and high capacity magazines. The second amendment will live on. However I have a choice to not be a part of the industrial gun manufacturing industry and no organization should have the power to continue to manufacture weapons of war, sell them to the general public, and make a dollar. I surrendered my FL CCW.

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Response to TarponSnook (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 01:05 PM

7. Thank you.

And welcome to DU.

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Response to TarponSnook (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 01:21 PM

11. Thank you!



If everyone were as reasonable about gun ownership, we wouldn't be dealing with this problem.

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Response to TarponSnook (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 03:05 PM

13. Great! Please take note....how you surrender your guns is important

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Response to masmdu (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 04:06 PM

15. Thank you for the tip...for the enjoyment of all

 

All the guns I surrendered were turned into the Tarpon Springs police department with secure trigger locks. They asked me for the keys. I left them at home. I lost them. They will have to destroy the gun lock to remove them. I lost the keys! It feels so great!

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Response to forgotmylogin (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 01:14 PM

8. Look, the logical lacunae in the gun-nut arguments are many...

... which only goes to show, they are not arguing from a position of logic. And using logic in that case is a null program.

One that should be blazingly obvious is that "the right to bear arms" is not the same thing as the right to bear any (and every) specific arm.

-- Mal

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Response to forgotmylogin (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 02:14 PM

12. This was linked in another thread...

And it makes my point - AR-15 weapons are NOTHING like standard guns normal people own:
The reaction in the emergency room was the same. One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semi-automatic rifle which delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim. There was nothing left to repair, and utterly, devastatingly, nothing that could be done to fix the problem. The injury was fatal.

A year ago, when a gunman opened fire at the Fort Lauderdale airport with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun, hitting 11 people in 90 seconds, I was also on call. It was not until I had diagnosed the third of the six victims who were transported to the trauma center that I realized something out-of-the-ordinary must have happened. The gunshot wounds were the same low velocity handgun injuries as those I diagnose every day; only their rapid succession set them apart. And all six of the victims who arrived at the hospital that day survived.


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/?utm_source=atlfb

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Response to forgotmylogin (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 07:49 PM

16. "If you need to fire more than six times, you're doing it wrong. "

Exactly.

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Response to bluescribbler (Reply #16)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 10:28 PM

18. Unless you are committing mass murder.

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Response to forgotmylogin (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 10:28 PM

17. Look, I totally agree that assault weapons should be outlawed. But arguing without knowing what

you are talking about is counter-productive. This is just plain stupid: "In a mass-shooter/massacre situation, a normal caliber gun would still do damage, but at a much slower fire rate with necessary reloads."

Assault rifles are actually small caliber rifles, virtually equivalent to the 22 caliber. The caliber is not the point. It is the power of the powder load in the cartridge along with the instability of the bullet, which easily tumbles, that causes such extreme damage.

It really does help to know what you are talking about so that you don't give the opposition the excuse to point out your ignorance.

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Response to Nitram (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 01:44 AM

19. Fair enough...

I've edited the post and changed "normal caliber gun" to "standard sidearm" and okayed Grammarly comma edits.

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Response to forgotmylogin (Original post)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:01 AM

21. First, moose or a bear in the yard, I yell and make rattly noise.

If that doesn't work, one shotgun blast usually does.

That's all I've got.

The NRA needs to be outlawed. Period.

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