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Sun May 1, 2016, 07:23 PM

"No, Jon Favreau: We Will Not Learn To Love Hillary Clinton"

No, Jon Favreau: We Will Not Learn To Love Hillary Clinton

Dan Wright--April 22
The moment has arrived. That moment when the establishment’s sniggering apologists tell those damn idealists that it is time to get with the program and settle for the latest shabby party product or risk going home empty-handed. Hear the eternal refrain: Don’t make the perfect the enemy of the good.

There has been a slew of these strident come to Jesus jeremiads from the usual suspects after former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s win in the New York primary.
But the latest sermon on submitting to destiny from former Obama speechwriter Jon Favreau both perfectly encapsulates the mindless DNC Hillary Clinton Campaign talking points, while attempting to provide a how do you do fellow kids credibility because he was part of the 2008 primary fight against Hillary Clinton.

See? Even former rivals for power with future career interests tied to the Democratic Party support Hillary Clinton, you guys.

The substance of the screed is as tired as it is tiresome. Favreau makes a number of claims that fail basic scrutiny when he counsels supporters of Senator Bernie Sanders, or “Berniacs” as they are called by The Daily Beast. For instance:

“Maybe you don’t believe that she’s different from the caricature we’ve all helped perpetuate. But she is running a campaign with a policy platform that’s more progressive than her husband’s administration, her 2008 campaign, and—in a few cases—Barack Obama’s administration.”


The problem, of course, is not that Hillary Clinton is not taking progressive positions. The problem is that, given her record, the best analysis of her policy platform is that she is lying about those positions. Now, lying is a strong word and given her profession (politician) let us use a nicer word, bullshitting. Hillary Clinton is bullshitting people on what she will do in office and a large slice of the Democratic Party base knows it.

Favreau supports his previous point by claiming Sanders supporters should essentially declare victory because “Guess what? Bernie Sanders helped make that happen. He helped push Hillary Clinton to the left. And he should keep pushing her if she becomes president.”

Guess what? She’s bullshitting and even her most ardent supporters acknowledge she plans to move rightward for the general election. So, no, she has not been pushed anywhere, she is just saying what she thinks Democratic primary voters want to hear, just as she will change the tune and say what she thinks 51% of the general electorate wants to hear should she become the party’s nominee. That’s not taking a progressive position, Jon, that’s pretending to take progressive position.


Continued at.........
https://shadowproof.com/2016/04/22/no-jon-favreu-we-will-not-learn-to-love-hillary/

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Reply "No, Jon Favreau: We Will Not Learn To Love Hillary Clinton" (Original post)
KoKo May 2016 OP
Autumn May 2016 #1
TrueDemVA May 2016 #2
JohnnyRingo May 2016 #9
tom_kelly May 2016 #13
lewebley3 May 2016 #100
maxsolomon May 2016 #121
TrueDemVA May 2016 #15
roguevalley May 2016 #16
lewebley3 May 2016 #101
LiberalLovinLug May 2016 #110
SammyWinstonJack May 2016 #117
JohnnyRingo May 2016 #41
elljay May 2016 #44
LiberalLovinLug May 2016 #47
TrueDemVA May 2016 #55
passiveporcupine May 2016 #50
lostnfound May 2016 #65
Herman4747 May 2016 #56
SkyIsGrey May 2016 #22
zeemike May 2016 #26
Nitram May 2016 #61
truebluegreen May 2016 #67
Nitram May 2016 #69
truebluegreen May 2016 #75
tymorial May 2016 #27
ReRe May 2016 #29
JohnnyRingo May 2016 #43
truebluegreen May 2016 #74
JohnnyRingo May 2016 #92
truebluegreen May 2016 #94
JohnnyRingo May 2016 #128
jeff47 May 2016 #109
JohnnyRingo May 2016 #130
ReRe May 2016 #96
JohnnyRingo May 2016 #127
ReRe May 2016 #131
JohnnyRingo May 2016 #133
AlbertCat May 2016 #45
lostnfound May 2016 #66
Nitram May 2016 #70
lostnfound May 2016 #73
NanceGreggs May 2016 #51
JohnnyRingo May 2016 #53
Autumn May 2016 #104
AgerolanAmerican May 2016 #107
rhett o rick May 2016 #108
JohnnyRingo May 2016 #132
rhett o rick May 2016 #134
JohnnyRingo May 2016 #135
bvar22 May 2016 #112
deathrind May 2016 #129
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #122
lewebley3 May 2016 #99
TrueDemVA May 2016 #123
lewebley3 May 2016 #98
6chars May 2016 #3
roguevalley May 2016 #17
gordyfl May 2016 #19
JackRiddler May 2016 #54
Enthusiast May 2016 #37
Hissyspit May 2016 #72
cantbeserious May 2016 #4
roguevalley May 2016 #18
MissDeeds May 2016 #24
reACTIONary May 2016 #30
certainot May 2016 #85
cantbeserious May 2016 #95
lewebley3 May 2016 #103
Major Hogwash May 2016 #5
Plucketeer May 2016 #25
Enthusiast May 2016 #36
rtracey May 2016 #6
GoneFishin May 2016 #7
LovingA2andMI May 2016 #14
weknowvino2 May 2016 #23
GoneFishin May 2016 #40
GoneFishin May 2016 #39
disillusioned73 May 2016 #64
certainot May 2016 #90
certainot May 2016 #89
BeatleBoot May 2016 #8
stupidicus May 2016 #10
Chan790 May 2016 #12
stupidicus May 2016 #20
Vincardog May 2016 #28
stupidicus May 2016 #126
Enthusiast May 2016 #35
certainot May 2016 #91
AlbertCat May 2016 #46
HelenWheels May 2016 #97
stupidicus May 2016 #125
DeGreg May 2016 #11
MisterFred May 2016 #21
zentrum May 2016 #31
raindaddy May 2016 #32
kohodog May 2016 #33
Enthusiast May 2016 #34
zalinda May 2016 #38
Doctor_J May 2016 #42
chwaliszewski May 2016 #48
mudstump May 2016 #49
MFM008 May 2016 #52
fasttense May 2016 #57
Matt_in_STL May 2016 #79
TBF May 2016 #58
FlaGranny May 2016 #63
lostnfound May 2016 #68
TBF May 2016 #88
djean111 May 2016 #59
n2doc May 2016 #60
jtuck004 May 2016 #115
n2doc May 2016 #118
Victor_c3 May 2016 #62
Nitram May 2016 #71
Victor_c3 May 2016 #81
Nitram May 2016 #136
Victor_c3 May 2016 #137
Nitram May 2016 #139
ChisolmTrailDem May 2016 #113
dchill May 2016 #76
underpants May 2016 #77
Hiraeth May 2016 #78
ViseGrip May 2016 #80
PatrickforO May 2016 #82
fasttense May 2016 #84
TIME TO PANIC May 2016 #102
PatrickforO May 2016 #124
MariaThinks May 2016 #83
stonecutter357 May 2016 #86
bhikkhu May 2016 #87
mudstump May 2016 #93
avaistheone1 May 2016 #105
Jackie Wilson Said May 2016 #106
Spitfire of ATJ May 2016 #111
MisterP May 2016 #114
SammyWinstonJack May 2016 #116
Hatchling May 2016 #119
Progressive dog May 2016 #120
Dan May 2016 #138

Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 07:30 PM

1. She's talking a good game. Talking.

Favreau may want to consider fucking off.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #1)

Sun May 1, 2016, 07:39 PM

2. My thoughts exactly

I'm don't need to be told to support someone that is not progressive. She is a moderate republican.

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Response to TrueDemVA (Reply #2)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:35 PM

9. No she's not

Everyone, and I mean everyone, outside the Bernie Bubble sees Hillary Clinton as a liberal, perhaps too liberal to beat a Republican.

Step outside sometime and ask a typical Joe Schmo if he thinks Hillary is a right wing conservative. You have to know one somewhere who could use a good laugh.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #9)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:51 PM

13. Yea, ask a Koch boy... n/t

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Response to tom_kelly (Reply #13)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:36 PM

100. Koch is giving. 1Billion to the GOP and downstate races

 

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Response to tom_kelly (Reply #13)

Mon May 2, 2016, 05:21 PM

121. did you actually hear what Koch said?

Koch told NPR he'd THINK about it IF he believed Clinton's policies would be the opposite of her rhetoric.

I'm guessing you probably think they are, but does Koch? no. so not really an "endorsement".

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #9)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:56 PM

15. Question

Are the stances below something a Liberal or a Conservative would get behind?

Support for War
Against single payer
Against an increase of minimum wage to $15
Support for fracking
Support for Free Trade
Against LGBT rights (not evolving on issue to win votes)
Take money from private prison industry
Against reinstating Glass Steagall
Supports regime change
See business opportunities in countries ravaged by war

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Response to TrueDemVA (Reply #15)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:59 PM

16. Jon Favreau can kiss my ass

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #16)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:40 PM

101. When you are down to only vugerisms stop posting, you are out of ideas

 

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Response to lewebley3 (Reply #101)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:41 PM

110. Please take your own advice

Your incomprehensible one-liner insults all over the site are a joke.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #110)

Mon May 2, 2016, 04:25 PM

117. +1000000

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Response to TrueDemVA (Reply #15)

Sun May 1, 2016, 11:11 PM

41. 10th most liberal senator while she served

That's a undeniable fact. Your picking some pet issues and exaggerating them to suit your point doesn't make her a right wing nut job.

As I said, no one besides the Bernie people think she's a conservative. You have to have noticed. Perhaps you accidentally flipped through Fox News and heard she's such a liberal she's even to the left of Ted Kennedy. This is a real perception in the world outside of where you live.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #41)

Sun May 1, 2016, 11:37 PM

44. And Anhony Kennedy is the 5th most liberal Justice on the Supreme Court. nt

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #41)

Sun May 1, 2016, 11:50 PM

47. You're right perception is everything

Just because looney toons Faux News announces she's a liberal, means diddly squat. And she IS liberal....on social issues. (other than marijuana law reform, she's up to deep with the private prison $ to back that) so they can say they are technically right.

She gets a liberal rating for her stances on gun control, female reproductive rights, gay marriage rights (now), but on fiscal matters she is way to the right. Disastrously so.

Those "pet issues" you so easily dismiss should be everyone's issues. Those issues are paramount in shaping the country going forward. And where did TrueDemVA exaggerate? Seems a pretty basic drawn up list to me.

The point is not that some idiots on Fox News say she is a liberal, its if she actually IS one, or rather where she sits on that sliding scale, in actuality. Looking past her socially liberal evolutions, the issues that will cost the country the really big bucks for things like more war spending, and the really big cost of young lives, and the really big effect on the poor and middle classes by not dealing stridently enough with Wall Street, are THE most important issues. And in all of them she is to the right of center, to the right of even Obama.

Once a Goldwater girl, always a Goldwater girl.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #47)

Mon May 2, 2016, 05:56 AM

55. Thank you

I really have a difficult time understanding how any human being, let alone a democrat can overlook these issues. These issues have impacted the world.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #41)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:00 AM

50. You do realize most people don't pay enough attention to politics

to know if she is liberal or right wing or flaming pink with wings.

Most people don't know shit about politics or what politicians stand for, or what their history is.

I think it's a fairly small percentage of people who actually pay attention, and right now Bernie supporters are mostly in that camp. Because when people get excited enough...awake enough, they actually do research to find out what is going on. So most Americans today, even those that vote, vote by party and not by knowledge.

Sorry, but liberal shmiberal...she is no more liberal than my cats. And they only think of themselves.

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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #50)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:52 AM

65. Cats

That's a great and funny close

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #41)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:56 AM

56. Hillary HERSELF doesn't regard Hlllary as a liberal...

 

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #9)

Sun May 1, 2016, 09:06 PM

22. You forgot to add Neo-

 

n.t.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #9)

Sun May 1, 2016, 09:31 PM

26. You mean like the right paints Obama as a socialist

Or a communist?...and then Obama gives us Romneycare and the TPP?

The problem is that you don't understand the mechanics of triangulation.
And neither does Joe Schmo. And that is because they only notice what is said not what is done.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #26)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:39 AM

61. If compromise to actually move forward is "triangulation", then democracy just doesn't work.

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Response to Nitram (Reply #61)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:55 AM

67. Movement /=/ moving forward nt

 

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #67)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:58 AM

69. What a remarkable insight, green!

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Response to Nitram (Reply #69)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:06 AM

75. As was yours.

 

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #9)

Sun May 1, 2016, 09:38 PM

27. The same thingnis happening on the other side

It is all pretty amusing. All of the anti trump.folk on the right are calling him a liberal. Too funny.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #9)

Sun May 1, 2016, 10:02 PM

29. Ahhhh..

... government by "Joe Schmo." Really? Reeeealy? Talk about living in a bubble. We live in alternate universes right here on earth, your group and ours. Joe Schmo is smarter than you think he is, JohnnyRingo (I like your name.)

Joe Schmo is fed up. You may think everything is hunky-dory out there, but it's not. The Joe Schmos of the world know a thing or two you don't, and he's pissed. He's pissed at people who call themselves Progressive Democrats or Liberals, but are not. He's mad at people who don't keep the promises they make. He's mad because he knows the American Dream is dead. It's harder and harder for Joe and/or Susie Schmo to provide for their family. They have to work longer hours for less pay and are tired of never ever getting a raise. You get the picture.

JohnnyRingo, if Hillary Rodham Clinton really was a real Liberal, Democrat or Progressive or any combination thereof, I would be supporting her. But she's NOT.

What may be going on here is our frame of reference?

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Response to ReRe (Reply #29)

Sun May 1, 2016, 11:31 PM

43. The blue collar people I talk to see things differently

Most of them are indeed fed up with not getting ahead, but they aren't looking to socialism or liberals for help like you think.

They get frustrated that they work a fifty hour week and struggle to keep a roof over their heads. They get to eat every day, have cable TV and a decent car to drive, but there's nothing left over. Their reward for a tough week is a visit to the bar for a few drinks and a band on Saturday night.

Then they look at people on welfare who have the same exact things, seemingly without working. I try to explain that it's not the poor's fault that a working person only has the necessities of life, and taking down the needy won't help them. I think they understand that, but they don't like that the difference between a full time job and poverty is an iPhone.... at least it used to be.

If you tell those people about socialism, they hear that the govt is going to take more of their money and spread it among the non-working. You may know better, and I do as well, but the average white working class American is angry at the wrong people. These are the voters who are looking to Donald Trump for relief.

Don't tell them Hillary is a conservative Republican, they're in no mood for jokes.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #43)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:05 AM

74. "Then they look at people on welfare who have the same exact things...."

 

Ah yes, the mythical moochers living just fine on welfare. Maybe you should try to educate the blue collar people you talk to instead of buying into their learned BS:

http://authority.scientopia.org/2013/08/21/no-cato-welfare-doesnt-pay-more-than-minimum-wage/

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #74)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:45 AM

92. I do indeed try to explain

but it's hard to deny that people on welfare usually have the necessities of life, including household appliances. That's what the safety net is supposed to supply. Am I the only one around here who knows people like these?

I work a voting precinct here in a union Democratic stronghold in NE Ohio and came face to face with those angry voters last month. Historically, our county votes a consistent 66% Democrat. Obama cost a loss of 6% of those back when he ran, but racism was the obvious cause.

This time I watched in sadness as one Democrat after another came in and asked for a Republican ballot. Out of 600 voters there were three under the age of 21 (their license is printed sideways and easy to spot). Of those three, two asked for a Republican ballot as well. For the 1st time in my life a Republican was the ultimate winner in Trumbull County. Clinton was a close second, but Bernie was an "also ran" in single digits.

Many made comments like "what party is Hillary?" before requesting an opposite party ballot. It's absurd to imagine that those voters shunned Hillary for Trump because she's "too conservative". When they hear Socialism, they translate it to Communism where they lose everything for the sake of the non-working. Sanders supporters may not like that, or they may call them ignorant, but that's the collective face of the disgruntled white voter... like it or not.

It's this collective, and the fact that young people don't show up, that ensures Bernie can't win a general election against what many see as a moderate Republican. Hillary will have an uphill battle herself winning a percentage over, but she'll have to change those people's view that she's a left wing moon bat, or that she'll cry like a little girl in the face of foreign adversity. That describes her platform pretty well.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #92)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:14 PM

94. "... it's hard to deny that people on welfare usually have the necessities of life,

 

including household appliances." This is such a right-wing meme it makes me vomit. I suppose people on welfare shouldn't have stoves or refrigerators to store or cook the steaks and lobster that they buy on food stamps.

Seriously, how can you hope to educate anyone when you repeat this stuff like it has even a toehold in reality?

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #94)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:04 PM

128. I didn't say that was my view.

Why would you skew my comment to make me the bad guy here? Is that something that you just do as a reflex?

It is true however that most people on welfare have the needs to cope with daily life, and that's what I said. That doesn't make them moochers, it makes the American citizens with human rights. That's what the social safety net is for.

The only time I generalize is when I say that Bernie supporters are liberal elitists who enjoy berating people for not meeting their lofty standards. Not that you'd do that yourself.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #92)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:25 PM

109. :facepalm:

but it's hard to deny that people on welfare usually have the necessities of life, including household appliances.



You realize most states require landlords to supply stoves, refrigerators and such when they rent out a property, right?

Or are you going to claim these welfare moochers are buying their home?

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #109)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:14 PM

130. People on welfare do indeed have the basic needs of life.

That's what the social safety net is designed to do. They aren't moochers, they're Americans with human rights. Perhaps you thought I was looking down on people who need assistance. I was on welfare myself in my 20s when it really did help people.

Why would you pick out that one sentence to define me? The sentence is literally true, but I don't wish to deny those who receive help from the govt.

Unfortunately, many resent that they work all week for the same basic needs that welfare recipient have and want to create a buffer between themselves and the destitute.

Just like you, they misunderstand and tend to blame the wrong people for their woes. I'm not your enemy.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #43)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:14 PM

96. Well, sure.

If you think all Joe Schmos have that opinion. Those Schmos naturally look for someone to blame and rather than hold the government or the officials they vote into office responsible, they blame the poor, or the Mexicans, or the Democrats. That's your average right wing Joe Schmo.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #96)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:56 PM

127. These aren't necessarily right wingers though

Sure, they may be to the right of you, but these are predominately blue collar union members who consistently vote Democratic. As moderates, it's hard to define them as Tea Party types as I know a number of those as well and the difference is stark.

This year they voted for Trump because they don't like Hillary. Don't think they're looking to Bernie to save them either, he made a distant third in the primary. Believe it or not, they consider Clinton too far to the left for their liking. This was the first year in my life that my Ohio county went Republican.

Only in DU is Hillary Clinton considered a right wing nut.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #127)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:27 PM

131. OK, I'll give you that...

I think the reason that DUers think she is is because as a rule, DUers are all informed political animals. We are more tuned in to what's going on in this country and abroad. This site was formed because of the nightmare 2000 election debacle. Doesn't it go without saying that there are allot of older folks on DU, Hillary's age and older?

What do you want us to do? Un-remember (not a word, I know) the lives we've lived and the things we have learned throughout our lives?

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Response to ReRe (Reply #131)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:47 PM

133. Continue you fight.

I'll not fault you working for a better form of government. You're to be commended for that, but standing on the liberal goal line and calling everyone downfield a right winger is a matter of perspective. I'm one of those older folks who have been here since the genesis and there's been an obvious shift since Bernie announced he's running. It happened briefly once before when Kucinich was a candidate, but the site found it's center again soon after he fell from grace.

I wouldn't have called you on unremember. I often use the word misunderheard.

Good luck in your plight.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #9)

Sun May 1, 2016, 11:41 PM

45. everyone, outside the Bernie Bubble sees Hillary Clinton as a liberal,

 

Baloney!

They may see her as some kind of Democrat, but not a liberal.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #45)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:54 AM

66. Yeah my compatriot Americans don't read books anymore

Woefully unaware

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #66)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:59 AM

70. So now people who disagree with you don't read books.

Your arrogance boggles my mind.

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Response to Nitram (Reply #70)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:04 AM

73. Hugs and kisses to you too

I'm very fragile today and there's a nice train about to pass by

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #9)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:05 AM

51. You're trying to reason with ...

... people who think Bernie will win all of the upcoming primaries by at least 99.9%.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #51)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:52 AM

53. You're right

I forgot where I was for a bit.

I just get so frustrated when people stand with their toes over the far left goal line, look downfield, and declare everyone else in the game right wing nut jobs with no discernible difference.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #51)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:42 PM

104. Only in your mind are Bernie supporters thinking that

Bernie will win all of the upcoming primaries by at least 99.9%. You should get that checked.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #9)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:22 PM

107. everyone outside the Clinton bubble sees her as a crook

 

The evidence of malfeasance and profiteering from political influence, from cattle futures to the Clinton Foundation and everything in between, is overwhelming.

She's going to get absolutely destroyed against an opponent who plays hardball, which Trump demonstrated he is with the way he took out the other GOP candidates like bowling pins. Look at the way he destroyed Jeb Bush, who prior to said destruction was still considered a top tier candidate. And then he did the same to Rubio, and to Cruz, beating each at their own game.

Trump may well be the most formidable GOP nominee since Reagan. The man has never run for office before and managed to emerge as a clear winner in a crowded field of 17 candidates.

To send such a badly flawed, already damaged-and-limping candidate such as Clinton against someone like Trump is tanamount to surrender.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #9)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:12 PM

108. She is not liberal in any sense of the word. The Koch Bros don't think she is liberal nor

 

Goldman-Sach who said that either Clinton or Bush would satisfy the Oligarchy. Where have we heard Clinton and Bush. Oh yeah when they stood side by side and repeated the exact same lies about the need to kill the Iraqi people. Maybe a million innocent people dead and 5 million displaced. Ooops, is what Clinton now says to Democrats. What will she say to those that ask in the general why she switched parties in our time of need?

She isn't liberal because liberals don't support:

The corruption of Big Money in government via Citizens United.
Job killing "Free Trade" agreements (NAFTA, TPP, etc.)
Fracking for oil company profits over people's water quality.
Unregulated domestic spying and no oversight for the NSA/CIA Security State.
Drone killing of terrorist "suspects" in foreign lands (100 innocents killed for each suspect)
Prisons for Profits
American Exceptionalism as an excuse for neocon imperialism.

Liberals do support:

Strengthening Social Security (e.g., raising the cap)
Helping college students afford college (telling them to get a job doesn't cut it).
Making major corps pay their fair share of taxes
Reducing the defense budget
Taking a hard stand against torture and indefinite detention.
The end of the militarization of our local police forces.
The legalization of marijuana especially for medical use.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #108)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:37 PM

132. But the voters do see her as a liberal, and that's what counts

I know you're educated and well versed so I'm sure you know that's a fact. You have to get outside your comfort zone now and then and talk to people who think she's a left wing moonbat.

You can stand there and quote one after another of your facts, but that doesn't change public perception. Sure, Hillary is to the right of you, but you're hardly the yardstick by which the rest of the country views the political spectrum.

Telling people that Hillary is on the side of the Republicans goes over about as well as convincing them that Bernie is bringing about prosperity by breaking up a few banks. That hasn't worked out so well either.



Since you listed your lofty standards on liberalism, I should take time to address it.

I've heard Clinton speak on every one of your "rules", and while she doesn't make them the foundation of her platform speech like Sanders, she meets the standards for most if not all the points.

The anti list are just points you cherry picked because you see Hillary as being supportive of them. In most cases there are nuances that you refuse to acknowledge. Personally, I don't mind drone warfare for terror targets and most consider me a hopeless liberal. Not as liberal as you of course, but a real world progressive and moderate Democrat. There are more of me than there are of you, and we vote.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #132)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:31 PM

134. I won't address all of your post but the drone attacks are illegally and considered war crimes.

 

The kill ratio is about 30 to 100 innocents, including children, for every suspect killed. I would like to emphasize that it's suspects. That means that someone looks at data and declares a person to be a terrorist suspect and we (you not me) are willing to kill 30 to 100 (depending on who provides the data) innocents to kill that one designated suspect. Look up the definition of terrorism and this is what we are doing. No liberal would support this.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #134)

Tue May 3, 2016, 10:24 AM

135. I haven't checked the liberal handbook in a while.

You seem to have the current copy, is it on Amazon? I'm a Prime Member.

Or did you just make your own list up as self appointed arbiter of all things liberal? Otherwise we just disagree on a few policy issues that you personally define as standards.

It's frustrating that I seem to spend half my day arguing in the material world that Obama's been a good president, climate change is real, and that people need a social safety net, and the other half arguing here that I'm not an unregistered member of the Tea Party. I feel like telling both extremes to just back their foot off the pedal once in a while.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #9)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:15 PM

112. This may help clear things up for you:

* Sanders has supported gay rights for over 40 years. Hillary and Republicans have not.

* Sanders wants to end the prohibition of marijuana. Hillary & The Republicans do not.

* Sanders wants to end the death penalty. Hillary and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders wants to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Hillary and the Republicans do not.

* Sanders wants to break up the biggest banks. Hillary and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders voted against the Wall Street bailout. Hillary and the Republicans (and too many "Democrats) did not.

* Sanders introduced legislation to overturn Citizens United. Hillary and The Republicans did not.

* Sanders refuses to accept money from super PACs. Hillary and the Republicans do not.

* Sanders supports a single-payer healthcare system. Hillary and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders refrains from waging personal attacks for political gains. Hillary and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders considers climate change our nation's biggest threat. Hillary and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders opposed the Keystone XL Pipeline since day one. Hillary and the Republicans do not.

* Sanders voted against the Patriot Act. Hillary and the Republicans did not.

* Sanders voted against the war in Iraq. Hillary and The Republicans did not.

* Sanders wants to Raise (or eliminate) the CAP on FICA deductions. Hillary and the Republicans do not.

* Sanders opposes unrestricted "Free Trade". Hillary and the Republican do not.

*Sanders wants to protect Social Security by Raising-the-Cap. Hillary and the Republicans do not because the top 1% will have to pay their fair share.

*Sanders wants to diffuse the Middle East by NOT sending more weapons, Hillary and the Republicans do not.

(These are just a few of the differences. Please add more if you wish)

Hillary sure seems to agree with Republicans a lot.
IF that is what you believe to be "Liberal" or "Progressive", then no one can help you.



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #112)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:13 PM

129. 👆 This...x 💯

Excellent post.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #9)

Mon May 2, 2016, 05:31 PM

122. IF you compare her to Koch she's liberal

If you compare her to FDR she's a radical RW nut.

But when Trump can run to the LEFT of her onseveral issues ...Huston, We HAVE A PROBLEM


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Response to TrueDemVA (Reply #2)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:34 PM

99. Hillary is. very progressive: Sanders people are left wing tea baggers

 

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Response to lewebley3 (Reply #99)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:22 PM

123. Ha ha ha ha ha

That's silly.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #1)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:32 PM

98. Favreau is right; but.its easy to love Hilary's fighting spirit!

 

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 07:55 PM

3. wait and see what she's like as President

maybe you will like what she does

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Response to 6chars (Reply #3)

Sun May 1, 2016, 09:00 PM

17. I haven't yet so I know I wont. ever

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Response to 6chars (Reply #3)

Sun May 1, 2016, 09:00 PM

19. Yes, maybe we should wait and see

and decide yes or no in 2020.

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Response to gordyfl (Reply #19)

Mon May 2, 2016, 05:03 AM

54. Why are you supporting the next Trump?!

 

Clearly, everyone should stop playing and doing and imagining and demanding and thinking and fighting, and just vote for Clinton and then whoever her VP is, forevermore.

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Response to 6chars (Reply #3)

Sun May 1, 2016, 10:45 PM

37. That might be alright if the Democratic Party had not gone along with the trickle down

and perpetual war policy of the Republicans over the past several election cycles. We don't have time to wait and see what happens.

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Response to 6chars (Reply #3)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:02 AM

72. LOL

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:09 PM

4. Bernie Or Bust

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #4)

Sun May 1, 2016, 09:00 PM

18. forever

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #18)

Sun May 1, 2016, 09:16 PM

24. +1 zillion

 

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #4)

Sun May 1, 2016, 10:09 PM

30. Bernie is bust. It's over. eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #4)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:12 AM

85. the writer is smarter than bernie or bust

he ends with :

In other words, no Jon, we won’t learn to love her, though maybe some of us will hold our noses and vote for her in November if she is the nominee to prevent an even worse candidate from taking over the empire. Then again, maybe not.


so he is has a broader view that includes global warming and the supreme court maybe

but like most ineffective 'liberals', if he is one, yelling about liars and money in politics, i'll bet he never factored in this thing pushing the country to the right:

at a cheap $1000/hr x 15hrs/day x 1200 stations, rw talk radio is worth 4.68 BIL$/ year or 390MIL$ /month FREE for coordinated global warming denial, pro republican wall st think tank propaganda, deregulation, hate, and swiftboating

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Response to certainot (Reply #85)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:14 PM

95. Then Again Maybe Not

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #4)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:42 PM

103. You must be working for the GOP

 

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:14 PM

5. "Hillary Clinton is bullshitting people on what she will do in office . . .

. . . and a large slice of the Democratic Party base knows it."

Count me in as part of that slice!!




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Response to Major Hogwash (Reply #5)

Sun May 1, 2016, 09:24 PM

25. Of course they know it

 

Hell, they're COUNTING on her bullshitting the citizenry at large. Worked for her husband - worked for her '08 opponent - she figures that lyin's the way to go! Say whatever you want, then do whatever you plan to.

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Response to Major Hogwash (Reply #5)

Sun May 1, 2016, 10:42 PM

36. Me too.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:19 PM

6. My new saying

 

Party or Bust/Party or Trump...

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:21 PM

7. That crap is being peddled pretty much universally by "liberal" talk show hosts too. It is

wholly unconvincing. It doesn't elevate the argument a bit, rather it diminishes the formerly respected radio hosts.

I am starting to rediscover music stations again.

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Response to GoneFishin (Reply #7)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:55 PM

14. That is "Mainstream" Radio Talk Show Hosts...

That have been bought off for the highest dollar, of course.

Here are some Independent Alternative Podcast Host You Might Want to Tune into for True Progressive Talk -- Unbought/Unpurchased!

1). Independent Underground Radio LIVE

2). The Benjamin Dixon Show

3). Tim Black

4). The Bearman Man Radio Show

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #14)

Sun May 1, 2016, 09:07 PM

23. Try this station out of Chico, CA

http://www.kzfr.org

People powered radio. Streaming live.
Great programs, great music!!!

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Response to weknowvino2 (Reply #23)

Sun May 1, 2016, 11:00 PM

40. Thanks. I will.

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #14)

Sun May 1, 2016, 10:59 PM

39. Thanks. I am actively looking for alternatives. I will definitely check these out.

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #14)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:42 AM

64. Thanks..

 

I'm going to check all those out..

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #14)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:34 AM

90. the more the better but until the left stops ignoring

rw radio good liberal talk has no chance

they have a well subsidized and protected monopoly

the left needs to go on the offensive re talk radio

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Response to GoneFishin (Reply #7)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:30 AM

89. here's what liberal talk radio is up against

while liberals whine about hillary's money and 'corruption' and lies

at a cheap $1000/hr x 15hrs/day x 1200 stations, rw talk radio is worth 4.68 BIL$/ year or 390MIL$ /month FREE for coordinated global warming denial, pro republican wall st think tank propaganda, deregulation, hate, and swiftboating

and here are 90 major universities that support that shit while liberals whine about purity and decline - 268 limbaugh stations that would fall apart with the rest of rw radio if the bernie students at these universities would protest their unis support for trump and wall st instead of complaining about dems going right and lying and letting their own universities rent their logos to a few hundred racist liars calling bernie commie high school student molester and undermining their activism.

ALABAMA 8 Auburn 3, Alabama 2, Southern Alabama 2, Troy 1
ARIZONA 2 Arizona St. 1, Arizona 1
ARKANSAS 3 Arkansas 3
CALIFORNIA 5 San Jose State 2, USC 2, Fresno St. 1
COLORADO 4 Air Force 2, Colorado 1, Colorado State 1
CONNECTICUT 1 Connecticut 1
FLORIDA 20 Florida 10, Florida St. 4 Miami 2, South Florida 2, Central Florida 2
GEORGIA 14 Georgia 7, Georgia Tech 5, Georgia Southern 2
IDAHO 7 Boise St. 4, Idaho 3
ILLINOIS 7 Illinois 7
INDIANA 11 Notre Dame 6, Purdue 4, Indiana 1
IOWA 5 Iowa 4, Iowa St. 1
KANSAS 4 Kansas St. 2, Kansas 1, Wichita St. 1
KENTUCKY 3 Louisville 2, Kentucky 1
LOUSIANA 3 LSU 2, La.-Monroe 1
MARYLAND 2 Maryland 2
MASSACHUSETTS 1 Boston College 1
MICHIGAN 19 Michigan St. 11, Michigan 7, Western Michigan 1
MINNESOTA 4 Minnesota 4
MISSISSIPPI 6 Mississippi St. 3, Mississippi 2, Southern Miss 1
MISSOURI 6 Missouri 6
NEBRASKA 6 Nebraska 6
NEVADA 1 Nevada 1
NEW JERSEY 2 Rutgers 1, Seton Hall 1
NEW MEXICO 3 New Mexico 2, New Mexico St. 1
NEW YORK 7 Syracuse 6, Army 1
NORTH CAROLINA 16 North Carolina 8, North Carolina State 3, Duke 3, East Carolina 2
OHIO 10 Ohio St. 6, Toledo 1, Dayton 1, Bowling Green 1, Xavier 1
OKLAHOMA 5 Oklahoma St. 3, Oklahoma 1, Oral Roberts 1
OREGON 12 Oregon St. 7, Oregon 5
PENNSYLVANIA 14 Penn St. 11, Pittsburgh 2, Temple 1
SOUTH CAROLINA 4 South Carolina 2, Clemson 2
TENNESSEE 7 Tennessee 4, Memphis 3
TEXAS 16 Texas A&M 9, Texas Tech 4, Texas 1, Texas Christian 1, Baylor 1
UTAH 1 Utah St. 1
VIRGINIA 6 Virginia Tech 5, Virginia 1
WASHINGTON 6 Washington 5, Washington St. 1
WEST VIRGINIA 2 West Virginia 1, Marshall 1
WISCONSIN 4 Wisconsin 4

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:33 PM

8. Oh, the drama..


It's a toughy...

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:37 PM

10. I've only learned to despise her more

 

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Response to stupidicus (Reply #10)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:48 PM

12. If I wanted to vote for a Republican pretending to be a Democrat...

 

I'd have written in a Republican on my primary ballot...or voted for Hillary.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #12)

Sun May 1, 2016, 09:05 PM

20. indeed

 

all I see in her is more warmongering and another 4-8 delay in the much needed push for single payer and a host of other things the citizens of this country need.

Their "fear the rightwingnuts" tactic is running outta steam, and no longer hides who and what she is to the awakening masses -- the reason for Bernie's success. It's all theatrics intended to either justify or obscure the slow rightward drift in the party that started with her husband's admin.

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Response to stupidicus (Reply #20)

Sun May 1, 2016, 09:59 PM

28. The party has not shifted anywhere. The bought and paid for "Leadership" has gone full out fascist.

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #28)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:40 PM

126. agreed to an extent

 

I've always thought that the myth of this being a right/center country in terms of the masses is a sick joke, and refer only to DC politics with the "rightward drift" thingy, despite a great deal of the dem base being enamored and supportive of the Clintons.

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Response to stupidicus (Reply #20)

Sun May 1, 2016, 10:41 PM

35. The theatrics are played out.

We have had about a belly full of the bullshit.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #35)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:37 AM

91. liberals have missed all the bullshit while it was used to kick

our ass and push the country right

at a cheap $1000/hr x 15hrs/day x 1200 stations, rw talk radio is worth 4.68 BIL$/ year or 390MIL$ /month FREE for coordinated global warming denial, pro republican wall st think tank propaganda, deregulation, hate, and swiftboating


and then the left whines and doesn't vote and wonders why

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Response to stupidicus (Reply #10)

Sun May 1, 2016, 11:47 PM

46. I've only learned to despise her more

 

Yes. With Sanders as a foil, one can see there's no there there with Hillary. She's only "amazing' because we've been told she's amazing. I can't see anything she's done that was better than mediocre. She's really unimaginative. Kinda obtuse.

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Response to stupidicus (Reply #10)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:19 PM

97. You are trying to divide the Democratic Party

Just like Rush, Sean and other republicans you are very divisive and will hurt the Democratic Party. Is that your goal?

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Response to HelenWheels (Reply #97)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:35 PM

125. that was done by the thirdwayers long ago

 

and I've been a Clinton critic since before his first admin ended.

and you know where you can stick the rightwingnut comparisons, right?

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 08:48 PM

11. "She's running a ..."

 

A champaign platform..." Of false progressive promises that will vanish should be elected. So the way I hear that phrase goes like this: "She's running a long con on sucker democrats."

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 09:05 PM

21. Damn straight.

Clinton has plenty of money from corporate contributors. I'll get up on election day, and go vote for the down ballot candidates I support. If I'm in a battleground state, I'll vote for Clinton. But other than the vote itself, I won't lift a damn finger for her. And I wouldn't do that outside of a battleground state.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 10:13 PM

31. Will vote against

…the greater evil in the general, but will never love or trust Hillary. Never.

She's done too much harm already.

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Response to zentrum (Reply #31)

Sun May 1, 2016, 10:24 PM

32. I'm with you guys. If I lived in a swing state my vote would be against Trump but not for Hillary..

It's getting hard to support a party that not only stepped aside while we degenerated into a plutocracy but helped lead the charge.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 10:36 PM

33. In CT it will not likely matter

I cannot in good conscience vote for HRC. If it is close I will reconsider, but the DNC and DLC are anathema to me. Their world frame makes it impossible for them to understand what the majority of American families are going through. I have had enough. Bernie is right, change starts from the bottom up. That is the only way to make real change.



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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 10:39 PM

34. Kicked and recommended to the Max!

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 10:51 PM

38. I've had 2 people tell me

in one of the counties in New York that went for Hillary, that they will vote for Trump if she is the nominee.

I didn't know one of them, he just saw my bumper sticker, and knocked on my window and told me. The other, I just met and he told me he was for Bernie and he would vote Trump if Hillary was the nominee. Both of these gentlemen were over the age of 35, and I have no idea why they informed me of their decision.

It is certainly going to be an interesting run up to the election.

Z

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Sun May 1, 2016, 11:14 PM

42. No one trusts her as far as I can throw Chris Christie, so all of her bullshit is just for the adori

 

fans.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:19 AM

48. Bernie or Bust!

I can't vote for her, I just can't. I'm writing in Bernie at the GE, results be damned. If people don't like it, then I'll remind them that I'm an Independent. I have no obligation to tow the party line.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:01 AM

49. I didn't care for Hillary long before Bernie decided to run....

It's not about him....it's about her.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:23 AM

52. hes making it about him

like anyone 5 years from 80 has new great ideas.

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Response to MFM008 (Reply #52)

Mon May 2, 2016, 07:48 AM

57. Oh come off it, there is only 6 years between Bernie and Hillary

 

If Bernie's ideas are so uncreative, why are the younger voters voting for Bernie and the older voters voting for Hillary?

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Response to MFM008 (Reply #52)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:19 AM

79. Ageism? Nice....

 

Maybe you'd like to double down with some anti-semitism or will you be saving that for later?

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 07:49 AM

58. That would be much easier to hear IF

she were actually winning these contests. But she's not - we've seen the extremely strong evidence of registration flipping in every closed primary. She is cheating to win the primary, and she will be shut down in the general when she moves to the right (because those who are already on the right detest her). She is just a really bad candidate. Having 100% name recognition does you no good if 75% of the people out there have already decided they don't like you.

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Response to TBF (Reply #58)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:23 AM

63. The only hope is

that even more people dislike Trump.

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Response to FlaGranny (Reply #63)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:57 AM

68. I'm telling the Bernie or busters that I know to at least vote downticket

Republican fascist tea party congress plus trump is scary as hell
Whether HRC or trump is pres, better to have a Democratic majority

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Response to FlaGranny (Reply #63)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:21 AM

88. The problem with the Trump voters is that they do like him

and Bernie is the only one who has a hope of picking them off (early polls pitting him against Trump are showing us that he alone can pull the moderates). It will be a loss on epic scales if she is the candidate. I think she can pull more than Mondale, but barely. The problem is that the "base" that she is claiming are largely in states that have no hope of going blue in the general. And I'm quite sure Bernie will point that out at convention.

So it will be up the so-called "Super Delegates" to decide whether they want to take a chance with Bernie or go down with the ship (Hillary) to prevent the party from moving to the left.

We'll see what happens.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:17 AM

59. The thought of even pretending to "love Hillary Clinton" makes me retch.

 

Sorry, Jon. You are delusional and loaded up with wishful thinking.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:17 AM

60. Trust must be earned, not given n/t

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Response to n2doc (Reply #60)

Mon May 2, 2016, 04:08 PM

115. And it is something darn near impossible to earn back. n/t

 

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #115)

Mon May 2, 2016, 04:34 PM

118. Once Bitten, Twice Shy applies as well n/t

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:49 AM

62. Isn't it interesting that you rarely see a thread that is positive about Hillary on the front page?

I only occasionally see one in the "trending" section and I never see one in the "greatest" section

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #62)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:01 AM

71. Not much point in posting positive threads on Clinton, is there.

It'll get mobbed by unpleasant invective-spewing Bernie fans.

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Response to Nitram (Reply #71)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:27 AM

81. True, I'll give you the mobbded part

I'm guilty of being one of those spewing invective Bernie fans (I'm a totally disabled veteran produced by a war she voted for and then took more than a decade to give a halfhearted apology for which makes me doubt her sincerity) however I can listen to logic and reason. So far, the only positive thing I see about voting for Hillary in the even she becomes the nominee is that at least she is better than trump.

Yes, you are correct. There is a very upset base of Bernie fans on this board that would beat down a positive message about Hillary in a heartbeat.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #81)

Tue May 3, 2016, 04:15 PM

136. Victor, are you as angry at every other Represeentative and Senator that voted the same way

Clinton did? You must spend an awful lot of time being angry if that's the case. May I ask why you signed up for military service?

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Response to Nitram (Reply #136)

Tue May 3, 2016, 06:01 PM

137. Yes and Yes

I'll try to keep this as concise as possible.

I was 17 when I joined the army in 1997. I was a junior in high school at the time and my parents had to sign a waiver for me to enlist. I went to basic training during the summer break between my Junior and Senior year of high school and, after completing basic training, I spent my senior year in the Army reserves before I received and Army ROTC scholarship in 1998.

As a kid growing up in a center-right household I grew up believing that our military was a force that would be used for good. I believed that we had learned our lessons from Vietnam and that they wouldn't be repeated again (whatever that means). I was 11 when the first Gulf War took place and I viewed that as a success and justified through the eyes of a kid. I saw the situation in Kosovo develop and I was a 15 year old kid in 1995 when the Dayton Peace Accord was signed and NATO took over the defunct humanitarian mission in the Balkans. I saw that as yet another example of a justified military excursion. I wanted to be a part of a force that would make the world a better place and I ate the center-right viewpoint that I grew up under up.

When I was in college between the years of 1998 and 2002 I got very involved in my local ROTC program. I was in excellent shape and I was a pretty decent student. I was studying chemistry and the idea of being a member of the Special Forces really struck a nerve with me (I'm not sure how much you know about the different groups, but the Army Special Forces main mission is to deploy behind enemy lines and to train indigenous groups how to fight. They are extremely capable Soldiers, but their main mission isn't to go after unique and high-value targets). Their mottos is "de oppreso libre" or "liberator of the oppressed". I fell in love with the idea of being a part of a group like that.

I had just started my senior year of college when September 11th happened. At that point I had already made my request to be an Infantry Officer in the US Army (there are 16 different branches an officer in the Army can choose from like military police, field artillery, quartermaster, medical, etc). I wasn't afraid to face danger if it meant that we were making the world a better place.

At the time, I agreed with our nations response and mission in Afghanistan. It seemed a little scary, but I wasn't afraid to become a part of it. It was what I signed up to do. I graduated college in May of 2002 and between May '02 and May '03 I spent about a year at Ft. Benning, GA going through Infantry Officer Basic Course, Airborne School, Mechanized Infantry Leaders Course, and Ranger School. During that time period things were escalating between the US and Iraq and I remember wondering what the connection between Iraq and September 11th was. After all, weren't 19 of the 21 hijackers Saudi Arabian? I never, from the beginning, believed in Iraq. But at that point in time I had long since made a commitment to the military and I couldn't back out. Even though I didn't agree with the war on Iraq I decided that I would do my best for the people of Iraq.

I eventually was assigned to the 3rd Brigade of the 1st Infantry Division which was stationed in Vilseck, Germany. I was the Platoon Leader of 2nd Platoon, Alpha Company, 2-2 Infantry Battalion from roughly January 2004 until April 2005. I was in Iraq from 14 Feb 2004 through 22 Feb 2005. My platoon, being an Infantry Platoon, was attached to the 82nd Engineer Battalion which was mostly made up of 113s and HMMWVs. I was given two M1A1 Tanks in addition to the Bradley Fighting Vehicles I had in my platoon and I had a tremendous amount of firepower under my control. Whenever the unit I was assigned to faced any sort of combat, my platoon was thrown out in sector and tasked to "clean up".

We conducted combat patrols at least 6 days a week for the year+ that we were assigned there. I was in a number of firefights ranging from small-arms ambushes that lasted maybe 15 minutes, to IED attacks, suicide bombers, sniper fire, and two rather large firefights lasting 14 and 24 hours. During the course of the year my platoon was credited with killing 46 people that we actually found the bodies of and wounding approximately 100. I saw more than my fair share of combat and its impacts. It's one thing to shoot someone, but it is another thing altogether to find their remains after a firefight and see exactly what the weapon you fired at them did to their bodies. Not everyone killed was an obvious combatant. One of the most troubling memories for me is of a 9 or 10 year old boy I personally came across after a firefight who had been shot through the chest. The bullet came out of hiss lower back and he was obviously laying on the ground staying low when he was shot. He was still alive when I found him and when I started to apply first aid to him. I lost 5 of the 44 Soldiers that were under my command and I personally stuffed one of them in a body bag and carried it to the helicopter that was taking them away. Oddly enough, the guy had basically my same first name, Viktar Yolkin. He, and the others I lost, weren't just names to me. After spending nearly a year with these guys I got to know them very well and on a very personal level. Rank and military courtesy kind of melts away and you talk very frankly to one another. I personally met with the parents of 4 of the 5 Soldiers I lost. Some of them were supportive and kind towards me and others were hateful and accusatory of me - which is perfectly fine with me. As their platoon leader, I believed I owed it to them for their families to have the opportunity to curse me out for their loss.

It took me a few months to realize it, but Iraq was never about making the world a better place. Americans were upset after September 11th and they wanted to see dead Arabs. Apparently they realized after invading Afghanistan that Afghanis are considered to be ethnically Arab so we had to go mess up another country. Aside from that, Afghanistan was too easy and we had to flex our military muscle and look for a harder fight.

My attitude completely changed while I was I Iraq. I went from wanting to help the Iraqi people to not giving a shit about them and looking forward to the next firefight. I honestly didn't expect to come home alive or in one piece. I saw carnage and death around me on a daily basis and I expected my life to end that way. In hindsight, I'm sorry that it didn't - but that is another story altogether. War brings out the worst in humanity. Do you remember a few years back how a unit in Afghanistan got in trouble after they pissed on the bodies of the people they killed? The only reason I didn't do that was because I didn't think of it - and I was an officer!

Anyways, I returned from Iraq on my birthday in 2005 (Feb 22). As much as I hated leaving that country and leaving the war, I hated returning to civilian life even more. I eventually got out of the Army on 31 October 2007 and attempted to rejoin "normal" civilian life. I bought a house and got a good job working for Amazon.com in New Castle, DE. My PTSD symptoms started to get out of control and I sought treatment from the VA and was given a 70% disability rating. Eventually, after a number of issues at work, I was suspended for 5 weeks and then 3 months later fired after a number of flashbacks I had scared the shit out of my fellow employees. I ended up getting a job with the federal government as a chemist at the US Mint at West Point, NY and things went good for a few years. In 2013 I started to fall apart a little bit. I started to talk about suicide and have flashback episodes, but nobody took me seriously. On June 25 2014 I got into an argument with my wife. She threw some very hateful things at me and called me a coward and a killer. I called her bluff on being a coward and I slashed my left wrist four times with a razorblade, switched the blade from my right to left hand and slashed my right wrist once before my mangled left hand dropped the blade. I sprayed my blood all over my wife and started screaming about the war like a crazy person. My oldest daughter (then 5 years old) heard my wife and I fighting and came out of her room and saw me running around the house spraying my blood everywhere. I saw her and suddenly had doubts about whether or not I really wanted to die and I grabbed my left wrist with my right hand and attempted to slow the bleeding. I ran outside and continued to bleed everywhere while I waited for the cops to come. My wife came outside and tried to apologize to me but I just shoved her away. Fuck her and fuck that war. I completely fell apart and I spent the following 3 months locked up in a psych ward. I ended up losing my job a little while later as everyone around me felt uncomfortable working with a suicidal combat veteran. My family is still convinced that I might go "murder suicide" on my wife and our family and my relationships have completely fallen apart.

Of the last two years, I spent roughly 6-7 months locked up in a psych ward. I'm doing alright now, but come June and the summer I start to do really bad. In 2014 and 2015 I spent both of the summers entirely in a psych ward. I'm not sure what to expect for 2016, but it'll probably be the same. The summers are my worst time of year as there are numerous anniversaries from Iraq during that time. I'm halfway decent most of the rest of the year, but I turn into a suicidal freak during the summer months.

I'm 36 years old and I hate the fact that I'm a shadow of what I was more than a decade ago. I'm a complete freak when I'm in public and I'm so sorry that I ever made back from Iraq alive. If I could go back to Iraq and go on another combat patrol, I would do it in a heartbeat. As aweful as the war was, I miss it terribly.

As of right now, I haven't worked in over a year. I'm considered totally and permanently disabled by the VA and I'm receiving 3 disability pensions from the government. My family is alright financially as long as I stay alive - and I hate staying alive.

I feel betrayed by my government and the politicians that sent me to war. I joined the Army to make the world a better place, not to turn Iraq into the mess that it is and to ruin the lives of others. I hate what I did in Iraq and I hate what I've become, but at the same time I miss the violence and the murder. Nothing can beat the high feeling of being on a combat patrol and knowing that the only thing that matters is what happens in the next couple of seconds. Fuck everything else.

Returning "home" is the hardest thing I've ever had to endure. I hate civilian life and I hate what I have become. I'm also terribly bitter at the politicians that sent me to the war yet have never had to experience its repercussions first hand. How many times has Hillary Clinton attempted suicide after her role in Iraq? how messed up are her children after her non-suicide attempts? How much did Hillary Clinton really lose from her life as a result of her role in Iraq?

I joined the Army to make the world a better place. instead, I was taken advantage of by our government and our politicians when I was thrown into Iraq. I cannot, in good conscience, ever stand behind anybody who ever supported that war. It was way more intense and way more violent than anyone who had never been a part of it could comprehend.

When I see Hillary Clinton ruined by her role in the war and riddled with the scars of suicide attempts after the guilt and shame she feels for the war she was a part of in Iraq then I'll believe the sincerity of her regrets for her Iraq War Vote and then I'll become a supporter.

I hope you can understand where I come from when I say I will not vote for Hillary Clinton.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #137)

Wed May 4, 2016, 08:43 AM

139. Did you support George Bush for president?

Did your parents vote for Bush/Cheney? Those were the architects of a plan to invade Iraq on false pretenses.

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Response to Nitram (Reply #71)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:21 PM

113. Like Victor_c3, I'm also an unpleasant invective-spewing Bernie fan. But Hill's vote to put...

 

...Victor_c3 in harm's way and totally disable him didn't manage to affect me physically. But I do get to feel the shame for my country that her vote has elicited from all the needless deaths of innocent Iraqis and Afghanis and our troops and others and for the ongoing quagmires that are left in her wake, and for the consequences of Libya and her other proxy and covert actions in the ME and elsewhere.

Thanks, Hill !

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:17 AM

76. How can I "Learn To Love Hillary Clinton"...

when all she has done for 25 years has taught me to mistrust and despise her? Not gonna happen.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:18 AM

77. I thought Favreau was a conservative

I'm basing that solely on the company he keeps - Vince Vaughan, Robert Downey Jr. (I think he's reformed), etc.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:19 AM

78. I might be forced to vote for her but, that only makes me hate her more.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:21 AM

80. Not voting for her.....

 

If Bernie is not the nominee, you'll see many different types of stickers.....

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:38 AM

82. Yes kind of sad. The establishment is still peeing down our backs and telling us

it is raining. So, with Clinton we will have more of same, or with Trump an extinction-level apocalypse.

Not much to feel good about with our fucking government, is there?

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #82)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:09 AM

84. Yes, we the oligarchs have made your choice.

 

Now, you liberals all run along and go vote for our pick. Like you did with Obama.

See last time we didn't pick Hillary because Obama talked like such a liberal. But once in office he gave us uber rich tax breaks and "free" trade agreements and contracting out of more schools and a pumped up industrial prison and military complex. And he tried to cut Social Security so that liberals couldn't run on that and get more votes. He didn't close GITMO and he kept us at war pumping out those lucrative government contracts that fund most of our wealthy lifestyle. He bailed all of us out for our stupid bets on Wall Street and he saved our corporations that line our pocket. Yup, we picked him and he paid off big time.

Now we are trying to convince you that Hillary will give you that Hope and Change thingy that Obama never gave you. Now, this time it is A OK to vote for Hillary. Not like in 2008 when she was just standing in the way of history. Now, she's a much improved Hillary then in 2008 when we didn't want you voting for her. Don't think of her as the runner up or second best of the 2008 election. Think of her as the best you can get. You don't want Trump do you?

Now be good little liberals and fall in line with another liberal talking politician and keep your fingers crossed that she keeps maybe a few liberal promises while she's turning over the remains of the American economy to our corporations. What choice do you have really? There is nowhere else for you silly little liberals to go.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #84)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:41 PM

102. +1,000,000 n/t

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Response to fasttense (Reply #84)

Mon May 2, 2016, 07:29 PM

124. Well written reply. Reading made my blood boil.

I guess that's how a lot of us feel.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:42 AM

83. ...because we already love Hillary Clinton.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:19 AM

86. yes you will.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:20 AM

87. You don't have to love a person, love has nothing to do with government

the Democratic Party platform has been about good government as long as I've been alive. Its a job that has to be done well, not an emotional thing.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:12 PM

93. We can probably make Hillary say just about anything to get elected...

however, she won't mean it. That is the flaw with her getting the nomination. We get lip service for liberal ideals and then, just like Obama, we get dumped after the inauguration. How many times do we have to do this to learn that we need a liberal....a real progressive...otherwise, we get nothing and the status quo.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:46 PM

105. K&R

 

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 12:49 PM

106. The right wing propaganda machine over the past 25 years has been

amazing to watch.

Thank god I am not on the receiving end of it.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:13 PM

111. "lying is a strong word and given her profession (politician) let us use a nicer word, bullshitting"

 

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:44 PM

114. we dislike her for the same reasons we dislike Republicans

we dislike her for what she'll impose, not because of what she'll fail to do

we've had two decades of "growing pains" and we have a good alternative who's far ahead of the Pubs in the polling--what a golden opportunity!

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 04:17 PM

116. Bullshitting...yes she is. Arrogantly and condescendingly bullshitting. Not falling for her BS!

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 05:01 PM

119. This.

"Hillary Clinton is bullshitting people on what she will do in office and a large slice of the Democratic Party base knows it."

And from what I hear and understand a very large slice of the base intends to go walkabout after the primaries.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 05:06 PM

120. You still have time to grieve

since Bernie will keep spending money as long as he can raise it. The longer he continues, the less influence he will have at the convention.
The delegates are what counts, votes are what counts, and Hillary is winning both, big time.

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Response to KoKo (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 11:55 PM

138. Wow

After reading some of these comments, I just hope that a President Trump will be more progressive than a President Hillary might or might/not be.

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