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  Post removed Tue Mar 22, 2016, 07:18 AM Mar 2016

Post removed

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Goblinmonger (a host of the Editorials & Other Articles forum).

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Post removed (Original Post) Post removed Mar 2016 OP
I'm hardly a fan of Clinton...but there are no campaign killers there. Chan790 Mar 2016 #1
Tell that one to the thousands of dead in Libya. highoverheadspace Mar 2016 #2
There are two problems with your position here. Chan790 Mar 2016 #4
This is real politik nostrum that earned Germany 2 lost World Wars and the Nuremberg trials leveymg Mar 2016 #5
+1 kristopher Mar 2016 #37
Wow.....Your giving Dick Cheney a run for his money. highoverheadspace Mar 2016 #7
Channeling Kissinger. Just like Hillary. leveymg Mar 2016 #8
No, I think it's unavoidable. Chan790 Mar 2016 #9
Machiavelli would be proud of you. highoverheadspace Mar 2016 #13
Not just Machiavelli. Chan790 Mar 2016 #16
Well that explains it then. zeemike Mar 2016 #21
I heard similar justifications for torture and murder in South America in the 80's. GoneFishin Mar 2016 #23
Prospering at the expense of other people - just the way it is. noamnety Mar 2016 #32
May want to dial it back angrychair Mar 2016 #38
Explain how destroying Libya helps the US "prosper as a nation". kristopher Mar 2016 #44
Well, durn... chervilant Mar 2016 #14
Read it, not a fan of LaFeber. Chan790 Mar 2016 #17
Presidents, whose policies are implemented by the SOS, are part of all of this, even Obama. brush Mar 2016 #33
There is one problem with your posts within this thread... MrMickeysMom Mar 2016 #34
I saw that also. jwirr Mar 2016 #47
Thank you for a realistic, clear-headed post. n/t pnwmom Mar 2016 #40
re:"A weak-kneed pacifist SOS of the sort you seem to want would be highly ineffective at the job" thesquanderer Mar 2016 #41
worse than that greymouse Mar 2016 #50
Starting wars is not the job of SoS AgerolanAmerican Mar 2016 #36
kick FlatBaroque Mar 2016 #3
Hillary, like Donald Trump, ejbr Mar 2016 #6
Yeah that's gotta hurt n/t sharp_stick Mar 2016 #10
Sadly, this sort of crap passes for strength in America today. nt thereismore Mar 2016 #11
"FB censored it" is the part I'm skeptical about. drm604 Mar 2016 #12
Everyone knows Facebook controls all information ToxMarz Mar 2016 #18
Interesting about FB... SoapBox Mar 2016 #15
That's not really a reasonable metric, though Orrex Mar 2016 #25
Funny how every story about Clinton is a campaign killer Orrex Mar 2016 #19
"... forwarded emails claiming a Sunni-Shiite war would be good for Israel and the West." Gee, what GoneFishin Mar 2016 #20
What is shocking is how callously and blatantly the disregard for human life is expressed. eom Betty Karlson Mar 2016 #27
Realpolitik. Every SOS and foreign minister of allies and non-allies have engaged in this . . . brush Mar 2016 #39
realpolitik. That's what neo-cons were called before the term was coined, I believe? Betty Karlson Mar 2016 #42
Nah! The term long outdates neocons. brush Mar 2016 #45
I have two questions kristopher Mar 2016 #46
Fascism — the merging of corporations, the govermnent and the military brush Mar 2016 #49
^^^ THIS ^^^ jwirr Mar 2016 #48
wow,,, Cryptoad Mar 2016 #22
This belongs in GD:P Dr Hobbitstein Mar 2016 #24
Good Reads is lately a favorite dumping spot for GD:P discussions Orrex Mar 2016 #28
I've noticed. Dr Hobbitstein Mar 2016 #30
Kicked and recommended. Duval Mar 2016 #26
Where are the outgoing emails that Hillary wrote??? laureloak Mar 2016 #29
The ones between her and Blumenthal were hacked. IdaBriggs Mar 2016 #35
Her BRAND IS CRISIS. Hiraeth Mar 2016 #31
Did I stumble on a Brietbart forum by mistake? hueymahl Mar 2016 #43
Locking Goblinmonger Mar 2016 #51
 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
1. I'm hardly a fan of Clinton...but there are no campaign killers there.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 07:37 AM
Mar 2016

There's nothing that wasn't strongly suspected, nothing damning, nothing that honestly (as much as the anti-war left, Wikileaks and Anonymous hates it) isn't part of the job of a Sec. of State.

It's not all cupcakes, being chummy on foreign visits with small African girls, and diplomacy...sometimes it's poison pens, daggers in the back; promotion of the governmental and business interests of your own citizenry; and subversion of enemy interests and regimes. "Politics is war by other means" (Clausewitz)...Diplomacy is international politics by subterfuge, lying, theft and handshakes.

I have a lot of complaints about Hillary Clinton...but those complaints aren't about her performance as Sec. of State--at that, she was superb. It's a great fit for her. It's a shame that she has higher aspirations to jobs she's more poorly suited for.

 

highoverheadspace

(307 posts)
2. Tell that one to the thousands of dead in Libya.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 07:43 AM
Mar 2016
I guess what your saying is that being a Secretary of State requires one to be a sociopath? Because that certainly seems like sociopathic behavior in that video.
 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
4. There are two problems with your position here.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 08:01 AM
Mar 2016

1.) It's not out of character with any former Sec. of State.

2.) A weak-kneed pacifist Sec. of State of the sort you seem to want would be highly ineffective at the job and a threat to our national welfare.

It's the job...the job is to do those things. Not hug small children and have your picture taken on diplomatic jaunts for the newspaper. What you are complaining about is, frankly, pretty much the job-description...and it is a necessary job that must be done in that way. The job is to represent America's interests abroad and manipulate to advance those interests...it's a job for a bloodless sociopath that doesn't care if they get 100,000 people there and there and there killed or steal from the global poor. It really is that simple and unavoidable unless you want to be reduced to the state of a third-world nation.

By virtue of being an American, you are automatically a barbarous monster that profits at the expense of the global poor. Heavy is the head upon which sits the crown. So, do I feel bad for the thousands dead in Libya? No more so than the thousands that will die this and every year everywhere else to maintain the American way of life.

It'll happen and continue to happen regardless who is President and who is Sec. of State. Every liberty and luxury you have in life has been taken at someone else's expense. It really is easier to live with it than to tear yourself apart over it when there is nothing you can do to stop it, short of moving to a global slum and becoming the exploited yourself.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
5. This is real politik nostrum that earned Germany 2 lost World Wars and the Nuremberg trials
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 08:10 AM
Mar 2016

I think you captured the criminal mind set at the top, perfectly, that runs from from Kissinger straight through Hillary Clinton.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
37. +1
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:16 AM
Mar 2016
 

highoverheadspace

(307 posts)
7. Wow.....Your giving Dick Cheney a run for his money.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 08:14 AM
Mar 2016

It sad that you think that taking other human lives to prop ourselves up is the best that we can aspire to.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
8. Channeling Kissinger. Just like Hillary.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 08:21 AM
Mar 2016
 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
9. No, I think it's unavoidable.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 08:24 AM
Mar 2016

Understanding the difference is necessary. We're going to continue to prosper as a nation necessarily at the expense of other people...we can feel bad about it or not; but we can't change or end it.

 

highoverheadspace

(307 posts)
13. Machiavelli would be proud of you.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:05 AM
Mar 2016

Congratulations on your lack of hope for humanity.

 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
16. Not just Machiavelli.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:11 AM
Mar 2016

Also, Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, Nietzsche...pretty much everybody you're likely to cover in an introductory curriculum in political theory except J.S. Mill and Jeremy Bentham.

Mill might be a toss-up...he'd probably see a lot of his proposed panopticon in US foreign policy. Basically, the US as a jailor state to a mad world.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
21. Well that explains it then.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:24 AM
Mar 2016

They teach the virtues of sociopath y in school.
I kind of suspected that.

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
23. I heard similar justifications for torture and murder in South America in the 80's.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:27 AM
Mar 2016

Just wow.

 

noamnety

(20,234 posts)
32. Prospering at the expense of other people - just the way it is.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:53 AM
Mar 2016

Gotta wonder how you feel about slavery.

angrychair

(9,685 posts)
38. May want to dial it back
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:16 AM
Mar 2016

At Least I would hope so.
Yes, it is the job of a SoS to push American interest across the globe, the paraphrased job description.

That being said, there are still laws and ethics of professional conduct that must be maintained.
Just because it's been done in the past or others do it does not forgo higher ideals. We are who we are by being better than than the person before us.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
44. Explain how destroying Libya helps the US "prosper as a nation".
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:22 AM
Mar 2016

Explain how the invasion of Iraq helps the US "prosper as a nation".

From where I'm sitting, the type of activities described are pure evil that destroy not only the nations we target, but the security, economy and national spirit of the United States.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
14. Well, durn...
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:07 AM
Mar 2016

You must not have read The American Age. given your opinion about the "job" of Secretary of State. But, never mind. I think I'll just update my IL.

 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
17. Read it, not a fan of LaFeber.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:14 AM
Mar 2016

I think he takes a distorted view of the field and history to confirm his hypotheses.

brush

(57,272 posts)
33. Presidents, whose policies are implemented by the SOS, are part of all of this, even Obama.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:54 AM
Mar 2016

Presidents can, if they chose, present themselves to be above the fray as statesmen or stateswomen for optics while sending the SOS out to be the "heavy", but ALL candidates running for President of the United States have to know what that office represents in terms of realpolitik, even Bernie Sanders.

Once president they can rein in our avaricious imperialism somewhat, as Obama has tried to do, but the MIC, with their bought-and-pair-for reps in Congress, will not stand being denied for long, as the American lifestyle is at stake.

It would take a revolution to change that, which is where Bernie Sanders comes in.

I wonder how he would deal with the demands that come from being President of the United States, or maybe a better question would be, would he survive being President of the United States?

MrMickeysMom

(20,453 posts)
34. There is one problem with your posts within this thread...
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:57 AM
Mar 2016

Your description and acquiesces as to the establishment character of a SoS are diametrically opposed to everything in your sig line. Oh, yeah... I believe you...

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
47. I saw that also.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:32 AM
Mar 2016

pnwmom

(109,504 posts)
40. Thank you for a realistic, clear-headed post. n/t
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:19 AM
Mar 2016

thesquanderer

(12,326 posts)
41. re:"A weak-kneed pacifist SOS of the sort you seem to want would be highly ineffective at the job"
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:21 AM
Mar 2016

Two things...

1. there is space between "weak-kneed pacifist" and the more severe qualities you admire in Hillary's approach, but even if I grant you that those severe qualities are admirable in a SOS...

2. there is a question as to whether you think those more severe qualities you see as necessary in an SOS are necessarily the same qualities we ideally want in a President.

greymouse

(872 posts)
50. worse than that
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:44 AM
Mar 2016

Hillary's handiwork in Libya -

Before: a stable country reaching out to the West, with free healthcare and free education through college for its citizens and a semblance of equal rights for women.

After: A country with no central government, in civil war chaos, a total lack of safety for its residents, with ISIS bases within striking distance of Italy, and equal rights for women set back centuries.

She ruined the lives of six million people. Six million, where have I heard that number before...

 

AgerolanAmerican

(1,000 posts)
36. Starting wars is not the job of SoS
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:12 AM
Mar 2016

It's actually quite extraordinary the powers she took upon herself in that position. To my knowledge, never before has the US gone to war at the initiative of an appointed official.

Also, in open defiance of the expressed will of the people when we said NO to war in Syria, she went ahead and fueled the war anyway.

Her policies on Libya and Syria as SoS should each individually be a campaign killer. I feel like I am in bizarro world watching someone like her not only compete but actually be leading in the Democratic Party.

"War, war, what is it good for?"

Lining the pockets of the Clinton Foundation, apparently... and little else.

FlatBaroque

(3,160 posts)
3. kick
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 07:45 AM
Mar 2016

ejbr

(5,869 posts)
6. Hillary, like Donald Trump,
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 08:13 AM
Mar 2016

could shoot someone on a busy street in broad daylight and lose minimal support. Her change of positions for political expediency, ties to the thieves that wrecked the economy, and numerous lapses in sound judgment do not seem to affect her level of support. Her cheerleaders are either indifferent to or ignorant of her piss poor qualities. She's a woman who dresses well and tells people what they want to hear.

sharp_stick

(14,400 posts)
10. Yeah that's gotta hurt n/t
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 08:51 AM
Mar 2016

thereismore

(13,326 posts)
11. Sadly, this sort of crap passes for strength in America today. nt
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 08:55 AM
Mar 2016

drm604

(16,230 posts)
12. "FB censored it" is the part I'm skeptical about.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 08:57 AM
Mar 2016

That seems to get added to a lot of stories like this and, to my knowledge, it's always been false.

ToxMarz

(2,241 posts)
18. Everyone knows Facebook controls all information
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:18 AM
Mar 2016

There is no other way to release information. If only there was another way, then people would know.

SoapBox

(18,791 posts)
15. Interesting about FB...
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:10 AM
Mar 2016

I heard about this, online, a couple times last night...being said that FB (or better, persons at FB) had removed multiple posting about some of the emails.

Seems...odd. If there is nothing there, then why remove the emails posted?

Orrex

(64,033 posts)
25. That's not really a reasonable metric, though
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:35 AM
Mar 2016
If there is nothing there, then why remove the emails posted?
If there's nothing there, then why post them? Someone will always and invariably claim that some omitted or edited email is the "campaign killing" revelation that FB (or whoever) tried to suppress, so there seems little point in fanning the flames.

Someone could as readily claim that Sanders has participated in illegal whale hunting excursions in 2007. If he didn't then why not post his emails from 2007 declaring that he didn't participate? Does he have something to hide?

As always, the assumption in any anti-Clinton fishing expedition du jour is that she must have done something terribly wrong, so it's up to her to prove that she didn't. Instead of, you know, requiring her accusers to make their case.

Orrex

(64,033 posts)
19. Funny how every story about Clinton is a campaign killer
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:21 AM
Mar 2016

Not "surprising news" or "an unexpected revelation" or "new information," but always "a campaign killer."

Hmm...

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
20. "... forwarded emails claiming a Sunni-Shiite war would be good for Israel and the West." Gee, what
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:23 AM
Mar 2016

a shocker.

 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
27. What is shocking is how callously and blatantly the disregard for human life is expressed. eom
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:40 AM
Mar 2016

brush

(57,272 posts)
39. Realpolitik. Every SOS and foreign minister of allies and non-allies have engaged in this . . .
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:18 AM
Mar 2016

for forever. It's a job requirement.

Will it change?

It's doubtful but I'd like to see a president implement policies that would change the job description of the SOS and survive.

But that's doubtful too.

 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
42. realpolitik. That's what neo-cons were called before the term was coined, I believe?
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:21 AM
Mar 2016

brush

(57,272 posts)
45. Nah! The term long outdates neocons.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:24 AM
Mar 2016

Google it.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
46. I have two questions
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:28 AM
Mar 2016

Do you understand what fascism is?

Do you understand what the bad aspect of it is even without it being in the shadow of the Holocaust?

brush

(57,272 posts)
49. Fascism — the merging of corporations, the govermnent and the military
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:40 AM
Mar 2016

Do you understand the term realpolitik?

Get to your point, please.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
48. ^^^ THIS ^^^
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:40 AM
Mar 2016

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
22. wow,,,
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:25 AM
Mar 2016

how can u say anything about this much BS that doesn't rhyme with Dooky? Somebody needs to find another Political Party to save.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
24. This belongs in GD:P
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:35 AM
Mar 2016

Not Good Reads. But I'm sure you already know that.

Orrex

(64,033 posts)
28. Good Reads is lately a favorite dumping spot for GD:P discussions
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:40 AM
Mar 2016
 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
30. I've noticed.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:41 AM
Mar 2016

It's childish and assholish of those that try to circumvent Skinner's new rule so they can get their drivel on the front page. I've noticed that Video & Multimedia is another dumping ground.

 

Duval

(4,280 posts)
26. Kicked and recommended.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:36 AM
Mar 2016

Drip, drip, drip. Our Country needs someone who will bring us together and that someone is Bernie Sanders.

laureloak

(2,055 posts)
29. Where are the outgoing emails that Hillary wrote???
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:41 AM
Mar 2016

Since when are we responsible for the content of the mail we receive??

 

IdaBriggs

(10,559 posts)
35. The ones between her and Blumenthal were hacked.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:09 AM
Mar 2016

The hacker has been extradited here so we will know soon.

Hiraeth

(4,805 posts)
31. Her BRAND IS CRISIS.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:43 AM
Mar 2016

hueymahl

(2,640 posts)
43. Did I stumble on a Brietbart forum by mistake?
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:21 AM
Mar 2016

Give me an f'ing break with these posts with over-the-top Drudge Report headlines. Hillary has her issues, but you are playing into the rethug talking points, hook, line & sinker.

I don't alert, but this one I'm tempted to on.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
51. Locking
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:51 AM
Mar 2016

Please feel free to re-post this in GDP.

Thanks.

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