Kaci Hickox Won't Follow Maine Ebola Quarantine Rule, Lawyer Says

[coyote]

Source: ABC News

Kaci Hickox, the nurse who was quarantined at a New Jersey hospital despite exhibiting no Ebola symptoms after arriving from West Africa, won't follow the quarantine imposed by Maine officials, her attorney said tonight.

"Going forward she does not intend to abide by the quarantine imposed by Maine officials because she is not a risk to others," her attorney Steven Hyman said. "She is asymptomatic and under all the protocols cannot be deemed a medical risk of being contagious to anyone."

Hickox will abide by all the self-monitoring requirements of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the state of Maine, Hyman said.

Maine requires that health care workers such as Hickox who return to the state from West Africa will remain under a 21-day home quarantine, with their condition actively monitored, Gov. Paul R. LePage said in a statement.


Read more: https://gma.yahoo.com/kaci-hickox-wont-maine-ebola-quarantine-rule-lawyer-080800461--abc-news-topstories.html

[cosmicone]

1. Arrest her and put her in isolation.

Since when do communicable disease patients get to decide the terms and methods of their own quarantine?

[dembotoz]

3. she is a ficken doctor

she was is africa working on ebola

she understands what she is doing than some stupid brain dead pol

[leftynyc]

6. No - she's not a doctor

She's a nurse and if she wont follow basic protocol (as advised by the CDC) and stay away from public areas, throw her entitled ass in jail. My cousin is a nurse and frequently travels to places like Vietnam and Morocco to help with surgeries and such and would never make such a big deal about this - she would follow the rules or she wouldn't go overseas. I don't know who the fuck this nurse thinks she is. And btw - I'd feel the same way if she were a doctor.

[Fred Sanders]

8. She is a certified epidemiologist, why do you folks hate educated folks? Christie is a blowhard.

No medical baisis for the rules of the bully Governeor pandering to the fear of folks like you.

Who do YOU think you are?

Democrats taking the side of the Cruz and Christie and Fox, have the poles reversed polarity yet?

You sure fear a lot of things that are not real. Science is real. How do you sleep at night?

[leftynyc]

16. Is she a fucking doctor

like the person I was responding to was saying? No, she's not. And given the post graduate degree in my hand, I obviously don't hate educated people So far today you've accused me of hating 1.6 billion Muslims and now I hate the educated. You're beginning to become completely unhinged in your posts - if someone doesn't agree with you you have a fucking hissy fit and ascribe to them whatever moronic charges your teeny mind comes up with. It's tiresome, childish and an insult to this entire website. And by the way, the fucking CDC recommends not to go out in public. Are they blowhards also? Now go away and let the adults talk.

[Travis_0004]

58. Results of Jury service

On Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:03 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Is she a fucking doctor
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=931016

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Post speaks for itsel, this fellow is tres upset that I criticize his loved Christie and Lepage now trying to imprison hero nurse Kaci Hickox.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:13 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This response is entirely appropriate.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Should have stated their opinion without the personal insults, which also goes for the alerter.
The sub-thread is pretty nasty.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: truth speaking doesn't need to be hidden. Fred Sanders is unhinged and I've had the "pleasure" of dealing with his ridiculous, accusatory retorts.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The post is directed at a clear disruptor who will eventually be banned. He deserves to be called out.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[leftynyc]

79. Thanks for posting the results (n/t)

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

123. You are operating on little information and lots of assumptions

These people that have worked with Ebola in Africa are more aware of you and I of the dangers and horrors of contracting Ebola. They are also not dumb enough to want to die. She is asymptomatic and before this whole Ebola thing blew up people were going back and forth to these countries with no problems. If she starts to get a fever I'm sure she would hightail it to the hospital ASAP. These people don't have a death wish and they are perfectly capable of determining if they have a fever above 101.

Just another sign of the fascist police state, and otherwise good people are falling for it.

[leftynyc]

144. Sigh

She is being asked to follow the protocols put forth by the CDC and the reality is none of this would be an issue if we didn't already have two healthcare workers decide for themselves flying on a plane or going on the subway was a good idea. I hold no animus against these people but this is what is being asked of them and if they cannot oblige, tough. Frankly I'm sick of this nurse's "I know better than everyone else" attitude - just another health care worker with a G-d complex as far as I'm concerned. I don't hold a very high opinion of people like that at all.

[Scairp]

155. I must ask

Who is sick because a healthcare worker who was infected went on an airplane? Nobody. This knee-jerk reaction is just absurd. The people who would have gotten ill because they were in contact with an INFECTIOUS Ebola patient aren't sick, the family of Duncan. He was infectious and none of those who were living with him got Ebola. I'm sorry if actual facts about this disease and how easy or difficult it is to get it confuse you, but there it is.

[leftynyc]

159. And another sigh

for someone shoving words into my mouth. I didn't make the rules, the CDC did. I didn't tell Christie to quarantine the woman but am perfectly happy with Gov Cuomo's allowing them to go home for the incubation period. I'm also well aware of the fact there is only one person in the country who currently has ebola as he's 3 blocks away from me right now. I'm managing (as are all New Yorkers) to make it to work and still ride the subway every day so obviously I'm not afraid of catching it. This condescending shit is getting tiresome. She doesn't want to follow the rules, too fucking bad.

[Scairp]

163. The rules aren't fact-base

The facts are no one is contagious if they are asymptomatic. She isn't sick, and if she does get sick no doubt she will inform someone right away. And I didn't put any words into your mouth. But I was thinking your mouth could use a nice scrubbing out with soap.

[leftynyc]

174. I'll try and be more careful

and remember some people are delicate flowers who can't handle swearing. I'm well aware that fear has taken over on this issue but that's besides the point. Thems the rules - there are plenty of rules in life I don't understand or respect. That's entirely my problem.

[muriel_volestrangler]

165. What part of CDC protocols (#63 - a reply to you) are you claiming she won't follow?

What 'rules' are you saying she doesn't want to follow? What she's objecting to are the Maine protocols they have decided to impose, which involve quarantine at her home. That is not part of the CDC guidelines.

[leftynyc]

178. The governor of Maine

has said she needs to stay out of public places - she's saying she will do whatever the hell she wants. You can defend her all you like - every nurse I've spoken to (and that would be plenty as NYC Langone Center has 10 floors in the building I work in) think she's an asshole who thinks she knows better than everyone else and is just making things harder for all the other professionals. Sorry, I don't have the "CDC has the last word" mentality of so many here. They don't have the last word - the Governors of the states do.

[muriel_volestrangler]

188. Then you should stop invoking the CDC as if they support your viewpoint

"if she wont follow basic protocol (as advised by the CDC) and stay away from public areas, throw her entitled ass in jail"
"by the way, the fucking CDC recommends not to go out in public"
"She is being asked to follow the protocols put forth by the CDC"
" I didn't make the rules, the CDC did."
that was all you. But now:
"Sorry, I don't have the "CDC has the last word" mentality of so many here. They don't have the last word - the Governors of the states do."
You had the "CDC has the last word" mentality until it was pointed out they didn't agree with you. Then you switched to supporting Governor LePage.

[Quackers]

235. Maybe this will help clear up some confusion.

Maine DHHS and CDC have decided anyone who has been directly exposed to the Ebola virus will be asked to voluntarily quarantine for 21 days upon entering Maine. Though they do not want to enforce home quarantines, the state is willing to pursue legal action if necessary. This policy goes beyond the federal guidelines.

http://www.wcsh6.com/story/news/health/2014/10/28/maine-cdc-dhhs-ebola-policies/18078435/

I think this is why the CDC is being used in some people's arguments.

[azureblue]

197. And those who should know

and likewise claim to have an "education" should know the definition of the word "asymptomatic".

She is not contagious, she is not going out and sharing body fluids with anyone, and As that word defines, she has no symptoms. Therefore, there is no reason to quarantine her. This is a witch hunt instigated by the GOP. Period. But those who love to parade their ignorance of this will continue to continue to try make a scare scandal out of it...

This parallels the Aids scare from back when. Much mis information, many scare tactics, and huge stupidity. I was around several people with aids and never caught, it, simply because I took precautions and kept my head. Even then I had a relative that would nto let me visit, because I had been around an aids patient. Remarkable comparisons here. May I add that Reagan let aids go on while thousands died, and how many have died in the US from Ebola? 1?

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

242. Not only that, but Ebola is not as deadly as it seems

If you catch it early and are given intravenous fluids and other support, your immune system does make anti-bodies and eventually people do recover. The ONLY person that has died in the US is the guy the hospital turned away until his symptoms were much worse. Every other person has recovered. I ill not live in fear because I know the facts.

[Fred Sanders]

160. You hate educated people in general and medical folks in particular....now we all understand.

[leftynyc]

173. Careful, cupcake

You already whined with an alert once today and got smacked down. Your aversion to people having a different opinion and having a hissy fit about it has been noted. Your shoving words into people's mouths that were never said has also been noted. Adults can usually handle stuff like that without whining.

[Fred Sanders]

206. The vast majority are telling you are the cupcake, crumbling with fear, now you react with

derision, how is anyone not surprised?

Fearbola, not just for Republicans.

[leftynyc]

209. LOL

Riiiight - everyone that disagrees with you is crumbling in fear - how pathetic can you possibly get? I guess you didn't actually read the results of your whining. No matter - it seems plenty are onto your game. I'm enjoying watching the train wreck.

[CullenBohannon]

169. agree

[Sienna86]

147. Well said Elmer. nt

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

248. Thanks. Sienna!

[former9thward]

107. She is refusing the CDC guidelines.

Absolutely nothing to do with Christie. She is in Maine. She says the CDC is BS. Don't try and deflect. How do you sleep at night?

[Fred Sanders]

116. You are as wrong as can be. From the post, you did read it I hope:

"Hickox will abide by all the self-monitoring requirements of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the state of Maine, Hyman said."


Apology accepted.

[liberalhistorian]

117. Well, the CDC does have its problems

and Frieden is an ass who has NOT handled this well at ALL, especially his deflecting of blame onto the two Texas nurses when it was the hospital and the CDC who were at fault. That may be where her resentment of the CDC is coming from, and I can understand that. But that does not negate her responsibility to be as safe as she can for others and not put others at risk. Ebola is a horrendous, horrific, nasty, nearly-always-fatal disease and it simply CANNOT get a foothold here and get out and about. We are NOT prepared for it, as a nation. There are only four places in the country that can truly handle it on the level required and they have very limited space. She needs to think of others, not just herself.

And that also doesn't negate the fact that Christie is an ignorant blowhard who's milking this for his own political self-aggrandizement.

[Demit]

138. I think a nurse who has just been dealing with ebola FIRSTHAND knows what it can do.

I think your lecture on her need to think of others is laughably, ridiculously unnecessary. I think what you mean is, she should pander to the crowd's panic & ignorant fear.

[liberalhistorian]

145. Well, apparently the doctor

in NYC who'd just returned from treating Ebola patients also saw "firsthand what it could do", but that didn't stop him from going out in public, on the subway, bowling, etc., AFTER he'd begun to feel symptoms. Just because you're a health care worker, that doesn't automatically mean you're always going to do the right thing. They are not Gods.

[Scairp]

156. Ignorance

No one else is sick, no one else is going to get sick. If it were that easily spread then three times as many people in Africa would have it.

[Demit]

166. What symptoms were those?

He felt tired on Tuesday, is all I could glean. Then, the next day, he felt like running three miles. He was taking his temp twice a day, as recommended, and the readings were normal.

Here, via CBS News:

"On Wednesday, he ran three miles in his neighborhood and that evening took the subway from is apartment in Harlem to a bowling alley in Brooklyn. After bowling with his fiancee and two friends, he then took an Uber car service home.

The next morning, between 10 and 11am, Spencer developed a fever of 100.3 and contacted health officials."


If he was feeling symptoms of ebola, I can't see how he could possibly feel like running three miles. And if you're going to say that, well, if YOU felt tired one day but not the next, you would DEFINITELY quarantine yourself, even though your temp was normal & you weren't exhibiting infectious signs such as vomiting, don't bother. You'd be full of hot air.

[muriel_volestrangler]

167. He wasn't showing symptoms until last Thursday morning

which was when he contacted the health authorities. The bowling was before that.

[heaven05]

48. oohhhh

everyone hide!!!!!!!!!!!the boogieman is coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[askeptic]

54. The CDC does NOT recommend quarantine if no symptoms.

So as long as you are going to wonder who the FUCK this nurse thinks she is, I will wonder who the FUCK you think you are to falsely imply that the 21 day quarantine is CDC recommended.

Here are the CDC recommendations. You should know the facts before you start throwing FUCK all over the place.

What do I do if I’m returning to the U.S. from the area where the outbreak is occurring?

After you return, pay attention to your health.

Monitor your health for 21 days if you were in an area with an Ebola outbreak, especially if you were in contact with blood or body fluids, items that have come in contact with blood or body fluids, animals or raw meat, or facilities where Ebola patients are being treated or participated in burial rituals.

[DustyJoe]

101. just wondering

So what is the consensus of the military unit quarantined outside the country for just being in W Africa and not treating or seeing any ebola patients ? Why aren't our military afforded the self-monitoring option everyone else has ? This nurse seems to be riding a money wave with an ambulance chasing shyster as the constant lawsuit warnings everywhere she goes seem to indicate.

Be glad she's not your neighbor and someone elses problem.

[Hissyspit]

105. Because the ARMY can.

When you join the Army you lose your effin' rights, despite what anyone tells you.

She's not in the Army.

[liberalhistorian]

120. I have a cousin who joined the Army

last month, is almost finished with basic training, and is definitely finding this out for himself right now and is surprisingly shocked. Then again, he's a jingoistic, nationalistic, authoritarian libertarian, so it shouldn't bother him too much, frankly.

[former9thward]

162. Obama is the CIC of the Army.

Why isn't he following CDC guidelines? He can counterman any order.

[fishwax]

181. why would he do that in this case?

Why would he go against the decision/request of the joint chiefs?

[former9thward]

191. People (on this thread) claim it is not necessary.

That it is "anti-science". It either is or is not. If it is why is Obama anti-science?

[fishwax]

194. lol -- the criticism of Obama doesn't make any sense

It's not medically necessary.

The top commanders in the military feel it's prudent.

There's no reason to expect that "what is medically necessary" for a civilian population and "what the top commanders in the military feel is prudent for the military" would be the same thing.

[former9thward]

211. Top commanders in the military are now Ebola experts?

But governors are not.... Yeah, real difference. The Army order is coming from Hagel who is a direct Obama appointee.

[fishwax]

215. no, but they are experts on the military

The quarantine was requested by the joint chiefs of staff.

[former9thward]

216. And the governors are experts on their state. So what?

It was approved by Hagel. Either it is science based or it is not. You are trying to have it both ways. Governors, bad, military, good.

A 21-day quarantine for all military personnel serving in Ebola stricken areas of West Africa was approved by Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel Wednesday.
The quarantine was pushed for by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Hagel said.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/29/politics/military-ebola-quarantine/index.html

[fishwax]

218. i never said governors bad military good

That's ridiculous. I also never said the military policy was based on science. Or even that it is a good policy.

But I see no reason why Obama should go against his top commanders here, nor why the public health policy choices of a governor and military regulations should be expected to be consistent. The charge that this somehow makes Obama a hypocrite or anti-science is thoroughly baseless.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

250. You know full well if he did half the country (and some on DU)

would be after his head for "hating the military" and "he wants them all to die from Ebola!"

I can hear Megyn Kelly already...

The Prez should stay out of it.

[24601]

261. Just to clarify, The Joint Chief's Chairman, Vice Chairman & Service Chiefs are not Top Commanders.

Chain of Command is the President to the Secretary of Defense to the Commanders of the nine Unified Combatant Commands. As the name implies, the Joint Chief of Staff are instead staff officers without command authority.

That said, each JCS member has at least as much Ebola expertise as Ron Klain, White House Ebola czar.

[Scairp]

139. Just wondering...

Did you even think about this? Those people are under ARMY jurisdiction. They have no choice, they are literally government property. They aren't a risk either, that quarantine is BS. This nurse, who went into an Ebola area to take care of people, isn't going to then come back here and intentionally put anyone at risk for Ebola. She cannot be that kind of person at all after what she has done. She deserves the benefit of the doubt, considering that no one who isn't a healthcare worker who cared for people who were dying of Ebola has gotten sick in this country. Doesn't anyone have any common sense anymore? SHE ISN'T INFECTIOUS. Jesus...

[fishwax]

177. why would one expect the protocol for a military unit to be the same as for civilians?

[magical thyme]

62. um per the article she IS FOLLOWING CDC PROTOCOLS

which also happen to be Maine protocols.

What she is not following is Gov. 38%'s unconsitutional mandatory quarantine.

Yes, a governor can order a quarantine. But it must be based on the recommendations of medical science, not political polls or public opinion.

And the medical scientists are unanimous on this. Ebola is not contagious in the incubation stage. It is only contagious when the patient is symptomatic. She is self-monitoring and reporting to the CDC and Maine State Health officials twice a day, as per medical scientist recommendations.

[marions ghost]

87. A quarantine must be

"based on the recommendations of medical science".... RIGHT

What is scary is that people evrywhere, even here--seem NOT to be hearing the consensus from the medical professionals.



She is complying. There should be no further debate now.

[SCVDem]

118. Well, I'm not a scientist.....

These right wing fear mongers should start this nonsense with....

Well, I'm not a doctor.

Yeah! No shit!

[muriel_volestrangler]

63. She is not in the high risk category, so I don't think the CDC "stay away from public areas" applies

She is in the 'some risk' category:

Some risk includes any of the following:

In countries with widespread Ebola virus transmission: direct contact while using appropriate PPE with a person with Ebola while the person was symptomatic

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/exposure/risk-factors-when-evaluating-person-for-exposure.html

That gives:

Asymptomatic individuals in the some risk category should have direct active monitoring until 21 days after the last potential exposure. Public health authorities may consider additional restrictions (see Table) based on a specific assessment of the individual’s situation. Factors to consider include the following: intensity of exposure (e.g., daily direct patient care versus intermittent visits to an Ebola treatment unit); point of time in the incubation period (risk falls substantially after 2 weeks); complete absence of symptoms; compliance with direct active monitoring; the individual's ability to immediately recognize and report symptom onset, self-isolate, and seek medical care; and the probability that the proposed activity would result in exposure to others prior to effective isolation.

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/exposure/monitoring-and-movement-of-persons-with-exposure.html

Since she's a health professional, who has not had any symptoms, it's very reasonable for her to argue that she should not be quarantined.

[PADemD]

98. Wasn't Dr. Spencer also in the Some Risk category?

He was pictured in appropriate PPE gear.

[Fred Sanders]

121. Spencer HAS Ebola, try to keep up.

[liberalhistorian]

122. That's what I tried to bring up upthread

and what many here on this thread don't seem to be understanding. And that's frightening.

[muriel_volestrangler]

136. I expect so; 'some risk' is not 'no risk'; there is no sign anyone has been infected by him

We have to wait another 2 weeks to be sure, but so far, 'some risk' looks appropriate. He contacted the authorities when his high temperature (100.3) started; and, as you know, the CDC recommendation is for a public health authority to directly observe the person at least once a day, anyway.

[PADemD]

146. there is no sign anyone has been infected by him

So far, yes; but he did cause three people to also be quarantined and economic loss to a business, which had to be shut down for cleaning.

It's OK and admirable if medical professionals want to take risks with their own lives in treating Ebola patients, but they should not ask an unvaccinated public to share that risk.

[blackcrowflies]

97. did you read the article?

She's following the CDC protocol, not the hysteria-laden unnecessary Maine protocol.

[liberalhistorian]

113. Probably the same type of entitled

mentality that health care workers who refuse the flu shot have; they don't care about others, only themselves. Fortunately, that's not the vast majority of them, who sacrifice a lot of their lives to care for others when they're at their worst.

I just talked to a longtime friend who's a nurse, and she said she didn't understand what this woman's problem was and why she was more concerned with herself than the possible effect on others. And my friend would be the first to care for an Ebola patient, without hesitation.

[Demit]

142. If your nurse friend would be the first to care for an ebola patient without hesitation,

why hasn't she? And she can't be the first, anyway, because there are hundreds already in front of her who have been doing it. They got up and did it. Like Ms Hickox.

I'm always fascinated by people who 'know' what they would do in a situation.

[Scairp]

196. What you said n/t

[leftynyc]

148. I don't hold much

regard for medical professionals who have "I know better than everyone" attitudes. That's what happens when your dad is a malpractice lawyer. My cousin nurse has the same opinion your friend does - this entitled attitude is turning off even other nurses.

[marions ghost]

164. "entitled"

Yes, she is entitled to better treatment than this, no matter what you think of her opinions or mental state. Have some respect maybe? The specialized nurse has not wronged anyone. She has in fact, been wronged. How about giving her the benefit of the doubt? Maybe--having been over there in Africa--she realizes that this kind of disrespect and detention will deter others from going there to help. That could be her motive. She is complying with the reasonable, medically sound CDC guidelines.

But get on with your tarring and feathering.......obviously satisfying

[leftynyc]

203. Spare me the hysteria

Yes, I used the word entitled because of her attitude that she knows better than everyone and will do whatever she wants - even break the law and nobody gets to say anything bad about it because she's a nurse who went to Africa. I have news for you - THOUSANDS of nurses to to Africa and plenty of other third world neighborhoods every single day. That she got caught up in the scientifically illiterate nonsense about ebola is unfortunate but the governors of two states are (whether we agree with them or not) get to make those rules about quarantines.

Tarring and feathering? Seriously? The over the top hyperbole from both sides is getting pretty tiresome.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

251. Well, she obviously understands the situation better than you do.

[leftynyc]

266. Because she's a nurse?

Should I go to a doctor and find out if putting my hand on the stove is dangerous?

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

270. That's pretty silly

She isn't just "a nurse", as you well know. She served in Liberia taking care of Ebola patients. Are you saying you have more real world knowledge of Ebola contagion and the risks associated than her? If you answer, yes, then this is my last reply to you.

[Scairp]

200. WFT?

That is absurd. I don't see an entitled attitude only a medical professional who knows what she knows and that's it. The lack of respect for scientific facts from you is staggering. You just aren't even listening to anything but the voices in your head are you?

[leftynyc]

204. More hyperbolic nonsense

I'm well aware of the scientific facts which is why I'm not hiding under my bed afraid of the ebola patient that is currently in a hospital three blocks from where I am so spare me the "lack of respect for scientific facts" bullshit. She thinks she's entitled to break the law because she's a nurse who went to Africa. I don't. Is that too simple for you? Thousands of doctors and nurses go to third world places to help every single day and while I have respect for the jobs they do, they don't get to break the law. I don't get to choose which laws to follow either. I suck it up.

[Scairp]

236. Three WHOLE blocks?

Are you certain you're safe enough? Maybe you should move, maybe another 12 blocks, then you would have at least 15 blocks between you and sanity. I mean, the EBOLA patient that you have zero to do with. Total flake.

[leftynyc]

265. Yawn

Do you feel better now? Are you denying there are morons who are forbidding children from attending school because they were in Africa 3000 miles from Western Africa? I was pointing out there was nothing to fear and you come on here and be a dick about it. Well, I shouldn't be surprised. The level of discourse around here has been going downhill for quite some time. So I hope you feel better - get someone to high five your juvenile post and find someone else to whine about. I'm not interested.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

252. But are you hiding in the closet? Don't forget the DHS duct tape!

Sorry, I couldn't help myself!

[PADemD]

7. She's not a doctor; she's a nurse.

An arrogant "hero."

[Fred Sanders]

10. Wow. And Christie is what, the delicate flower...some folks do not like strong women.

[PADemD]

18. Kaci Hickox is now fighting Maine's quarantine order.

That would be Gov. Paul LePage you can rant about.

[Fred Sanders]

22. So now you support anti science Christie AND insane Lepage? Has fear SO blinded you?

And of course I will continue to rant until you folk get it.

[PADemD]

35. I support quarantine orders, no matter who signs them.

BTW, 89-90 per cent of the public supports quarantine orders, too.

http://www.providencejournal.com/news/health/20141027-governors-stress-home-quarantine-for-ebola-workers-poll.ece

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2014/10/poll_do_you_agree_with_mandatory_quarantine_amid_ebola_threat.html

[blackcrowflies]

100. 89-90 % of the public

Well, as long as the mob supports it, it must be right.

I issue a quarantine order to you, PADemD. You're going to support that, right? I mean, you just said so.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

129. What a joke

80-90 percent of people that are scared to death by the fear driven media and don't have any real knowledge of the facts.

[snappyturtle]

161. I haven't opened your links...yet but this is my thinking. UNTIL

there is a cure and/or a vaccine I see no harm in leaving no stone unturned.

Someone downthread said there are a lot of what-ifs...true...therefore lets be
prudent. A 21 one day isolation is not a life sentence.

I've visited many boards on this subject of Kaci. Overwhelmingly people regard
her as selfish...to say the least. Why should she comply? If she were to do that
then people would see her as a professional not willing to take any risk, low or
not. She wins...albeit it her right to vocally object at the same time. Might even
make her 'case' stronger.

Until someone can precisely predict when a symptom will pop up in someone who
has had contact with ebola, I think it's prudent to isolate. Speaking of what-ifs...
what-if Coumo and Christie had not issued isolation and she infected others?...you
know these governors were between and rock and a hard place.

One person's (Kaci) objections has put this nation into a turmoil which is almost as
virulent as ebola itself. Of course, all of this is my humble opinion. Oh, BTW, while I'm
ranting, I find it weirdly amusing that folks are so upset over a 21 day isolation but
not so much as permanent loss of civil liberties and constitutional rights through
the Patriot Act, NDAA, NSA spying, et. al. when those do little to protect us, again imho,
but 21 day isolations may actually give us some protection against an enemy such as ebola.

[heaven05]

49. they'll never get your point

fear is all they feel and act upon. They can't help themselves.

[Fred Sanders]

72. They can have their fear, they can swim in an ocean of it for all I care, just stop spreading the virus.

This is a Science Zone, not the Twilight Zone.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

130. Sometimes this place seems closer to "The Outer Limits" !!

[Scairp]

237. LePage

Now there is an idiot. She had better look out because that nut will call out the National Guard on her.

[DeadEyeDyck]

43. this has nothing to do with Christie. The issue is the safety of the public, at large.

Besides, she is in Maine. Quarantine is never voluntary. It is the temporary suspension of certain civil liberties for the greater good.
And, fwiw, I interned at the CDC's infectious disease center and picked up a little bit of knowledge. ..

[heaven05]

51. ooohhhh!!!!!

run!!!!!!!! hide!!!!!!!!!!!

[jeff47]

154. And that little bit of knowledge should have included what the CDC recommends

or at least where to find her recommendation.

She's doing exactly what the CDC says she should do. You're demanding going beyond the CDC recommendation because....?

[HereSince1628]

14. It's not a matter of whether a politician is dumb. It's about compliance with regs and law.

MDs and nurses don't have special privilege to be above the law.

If they don't like the rules, and maybe they shouldn't, they've got to work and get them changed.

[Fred Sanders]

17. Christie clearly abused the law and you support him because......you is scared?

[HereSince1628]

25. No, I'm not. and shaming name calling you engage in is rhetorical fallacy

and your pivot to Christie to change the subject from Maine is noted.

It's about medics thinking they don't have to comply with rules and regulations.

You claim to hate despotism of authority but such statements of refusal to comply because 'I know better because I'm a medic' is nothing but a claim to privilege to be above the law based on a position/title. It may not be despotism but it's clearly an expression of exceptionalism to the rules of society...that's potentially every bit as bad as authoritarianism.

[Fred Sanders]

27. Dissent against abuse of political authority was the foundation of America, there is that.

Not to mention there is a legal system, due process is being abandoned with utter disregard to the concepts of American liberty, thus I do rant and rave and am proud to do so.

I do it for liberty and for reason. Nothing more.

And anything Lepage and Christie being supported at DU upsets me, can you see why?

[HereSince1628]

39. Not comparable. And that's a diversion from the issue

which is about consideration of statements of intention to willful non-compliance based on claims of a privileged position of being a medic.

Strange how a medical person whose life is so well ordered by 'protocols' of their vocation is unwilling to have their life ordered by regulations of society. It's almost as if that person thinks their position in their vocation gives them special privilege/authority in broader society.

on edit: It's pretty clear that Cuomo and Cristi acted within the authority granted their office. Their decisions, and the regulations that they put in place weren't right, in my opinion, but they had the authority. It isn't a question of due process.

[840high]

115. ...^ that

[Fred Sanders]

23. You can not reason with fear and paranoia, they cling to it like Saran Wrap on an sandwich.

[liberalhistorian]

111. First of all, she's a nurse, not a doctor.

And the doctor in New York City who'd contracted Ebola in West Africa sure didn't seem to know what he was doing, he even went out in public and bowled and went on the subway AFTER feeling symptoms. Being a medical worker does NOT mean that you automatically and always can be trusted to know and do the right thing.

[riversedge]

233. She is a nurse with specialized Master's degree's.....In Public Health and Tropical Nursing...

http://www.pressherald.com/2014/10/27/new-jersey-releasing-quarantined-mainer/

....“I always felt a strong desire to work overseas with vulnerable populations, and nursing seemed to be a perfect avenue,” she told the school’s alumni magazine in 2012.

She started her overseas work in 2004 with the International Medical Corps after a tsunami hit Indonesia. After being turned down by Doctors Without Borders, she obtained a Tropical Nursing degree in London and later earned dual master’s degrees in public health and science of nursing from Johns Hopkins University, the magazine said.

She eventually was enlisted by Doctors Without Borders in 2007 to manage three rural health care clinics in an impoverished section of Myanmar......

[PADemD]

20. Agree

[Hissyspit]

106. Because...?

[askeptic]

34. She is not infected, and there is no LAW. Your fear is overwhelming your thinking.

A. - There is no LAW. It is rules made up on the fly by the health department. Sorry - they are not the lawmakers.
B. - You are effectively imprisoning this person for no reason. The Constitution is pretty clear on this.

Maine is the one risking a big settlement and civil rights violation if they continue trying to house arrest anyone for simply having traveled to West Africa.

[Fred Sanders]

44. Fighting the fear....thank you, sir, lot of folks want to be fearful, it is the true virus.

The antidote is education. Now who is the anti- education party that folks here are now suddenly supporting, hard to remember?

[HERVEPA]

52. Polarity has indeed been reversed. I find myself agreeing with your posts these days.

[heaven05]

59. good one

[marions ghost]

71. Totally agree

The only thing I can concede to the fearmongers around here is that it has been shown that we have no reason to trust our institutions --as many of them are either corrupt or so starved for funds they can't do their jobs very well. So people adopt this kind of PTSD-like vigilance--immediate jumping to conclusions. Progressives do it differently from right wingers but it's all about the fear of societal breakdown. Given the fragility of things, it's not completely crazy to be afraid.

The lack of trust in public institutions and the media distortion of these issues is where the bigger problems lie.

[24601]

262. Just re-read the Constitution, especially the Ebola Amendment. Oops, the Constitution is silent on

both the topic of Ebola and medical quarantines. Per the 10th amendment, since it's neither delegated to the Federal Government, nor prohibited to the states, it's a power reserved to the states, or to the people. My money is on the states since there doesn't seem to be a history of individually-imposed quarantines and there actually is a record of state-ordered quarantines.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2014/10/07/a-brief-history-of-quarantines-in-the-united-states/

[Calista241]

264. There are laws that allow for the government to quarantine citizens to prevent the spread

of communicable diseases. The Public Health Service Act governs the power of quarantine, and SPECIFICALLY mentions ebola as a disease where the quarantine remedy is allowed for.

[heaven05]

42. ???

wow! Not right, big time.

[PSPS]

60. WHy stop there? She's a witch~! Kill her!11!!1

I am utterly gobsmacked that there are people on DU who ignore science and, instead, want to follow the "medical advice" of a politician. What's next? The earth is 6,000 years old?

[JoePhilly]

68. Look ... if she floats, then clearly she's made of wood ...

... and if she's made of wood ... we burn wood.

You really can't argue with the science here.

[Kber]

131. Or she could be a duck.

Ducks float

[Fred Sanders]

76. Burn this no nothing heretic "medic" at the stake, Lepage must now be the fucking hero to these fear

infected folk.

If you believe vaccines and climate change then you must believe in the CDC guideline, not the fucking GOP guidelines.

Maybe there are a few closeted anti-vapers here, would explain a lot.

You believe in science or you do not, you do not get to pick and choice because you is ever so scared.

[yellowcanine]

214. She turned me into Newt Gingrich!

[JoePhilly]

65. When exactly did she become a "patient"?

[Cal Carpenter]

75. Did I miss something? Was she diagnosed?

Last I heard she had no symptoms and had tested negative for ebola.

How, exactly, did she become a 'communicable disease patient'?

I just logged in so maybe I missed something...

[barbtries]

96. she is not a patient.

she has tested negative and exhibited no symptoms. if she gets sick she has indicated that she will respond appropriately.

[JonLP24]

238. Already knowing this makes this thread far more baffling

than it already is.

[barbtries]

239. yeah, i feel a whiff of hysteria.

didn't think i'd run into that on DU.

[Demit]

112. She's not a patient.

She's not a patient yet, Mr. Minority Report.

[Scairp]

135. What the hell for?

Because she *might* get sick at some point in the next couple of weeks? Which in reality people get sick much sooner. Unless she has a real fever she is of zero risk to anyone else, period. Why those who can obviously read and I assume also can hear the television don't get this is a huge mystery to me. Ebola isn't new and these people know what they are doing. I'm quite sure that someone who spent a month in Africa tending patients dying of a horrible disease is also the kind of person who would not recklessly put anyone at risk from themselves. Why can't we trust these healthcare professionals? If they don't have a handle on how it's spread then no one does.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

224. Last I checked, you have to break the law to be arrested.

Not following an edict is not breaking the law. Arrest yourself.

[Adrahil]

225. Has she TSTED positive? No. But I'm not surprised...

.... By your position.

[Warpy]

277. She is not contagious

and Gov. Le Putz is grandstanding in an election year.

These assholes need to listen to the CDC, not Pox News.

[enough]

2. I'm sure she is correct about the fact that she is asymptomatic and not a risk to others.

However, I wonder about the idea of individuals deciding for themselves whether to follow quarantine rules or not. The next person who decides not to follow rules because they "know" they are fine may not be as knowledgeable as Kaci Hickox.

This does not apply only to ebola, but to any situation where quarantine may become relevant for public health.

[RobinA]

5. This Lady

is awful sure of herself. While she is most likely correct, the best laid plans... She also doesn't seem to understand that perception is huge in a situation like this.

[Fred Sanders]

12. Illusion versus reality, you prefer your illusions...go for it.

[catnhatnh]

69. Are your constitutional rights...

...subject to the perceptions of others?

[Heywood J]

268. They have been in the past, technically speaking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korematsu_v._United_States

[catnhatnh]

269. Yep...

Thanks or the reminder!

[PeoViejo]

4. Fuck LePage

that Reactionary Assh0le.

[Dustlawyer]

9. You cannot pick and choose what laws to follow, you fight for change within the system.

I have a big problem with this due to the size of the risk of harm. What if she is out in public when she starts to run a fever? While I do not agree with what Chris Christie did, I believe she should stay home for the time frame.

[Fred Sanders]

13. What size of harm? She is perfectly healthy. The "what ifs" are the basis of your fear. I accept

your fear is genuine, it is based on uninformed paranoia...take the side of Christie??

Take the side of authoritarian imprisonment based on a lie.

Wow. Even after all these weeks of education about the science, folks still cling to their fear blankees.

Grow up.

[Dustlawyer]

30. What should she do if she is out in public and comes down with a fever? Answer that one!

Is she still harmless? The risk of harm would then be that she spreads the Ebola to others, that is a serious risk, even if the chances of it spreading are slight. I don't like other people taking unnecessary chances with my life or that of my families.

Can you at least debate without snark? When talking about growing up I think you need to look in the mirror.

[Fred Sanders]

41. The old "what ifs"....what if's are endless, the endless well of possibilities to drive fear forever

[Dustlawyer]

45. Didn't answer the question. I guess it has to happen first in your book before you deal with it.

[Gore1FL]

53. She should go to the doctor and not exchange bodily fluids with anyone.

This isn't the flu.

[barbtries]

94. her hypothetical fever does not constitute a risk

you must be in direct contact with bodily fluids. she'll have time to get herself into isolation.

obviously if it was all that contagious the USA would have 100s of cases by now, and we don't.

i truly am amazed at the fear level here on DU. fear sucks.

i prescribe no more TV news for anyone in the country!

[msanthrope]

109. She should wrap herself in plastic sheeting and duct tape and run

down the street, screaming?

[Marrah_G]

182. The answer to your questions:

If she gets a fever while she is out? Call the hospital and let them know she will be coming in.

Is she still harmless? Yes.

[Daemonaquila]

92. Ah, yes. 9/11 all over again.

All anyone had to do was yell "terrorism," and the fearful would abandon reason, their rights and liberties, and the big picture. Today, just say "ebola," and they're ready to do the same. Shameful.

[PADemD]

110. Like hearing the word "polio" before there was a vaccine.

There currently is no vaccine for Ebola.

[El Shaman]

133. And just in time for Halloween

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-2795129/China-sends-Ebola-drug-Africa-eyes-clinical-trials.html

[Tommymac]

137. Thanks to Teabaggers like Christie and Lepage, since that group led the way to budget cuts

that put back the development of an effective vaccine by many years.

Yeah, let's support them and their fear based faux news generated politically calculated 'quarantines' which are simply kabuki shields to hide the fact THEY share a large part of the responsibility that there is no vaccine available to start with.

[HereSince1628]

15. Yep. MDs and nurses aren't above the law.

[heaven05]

46. tell that to.........

oh never mind. She'll be fighting ignorance and stupidity of elected officials and just plain hair on fire folks looking for votes or affirmation of their 'black plague', draconian mindset, till the day she dies of old, old age.

[PeoViejo]

50. See Post #19 n/t

[Sienna86]

153. Rosa Parks would disagree with you. nt

[fishwax]

186. of course you can

One can choose not to follow unjust laws. (Of course, one must be prepared to face the consequences of that decision ...)

[truebluegreen]

257. What "laws" are you referring to?

Something some quack anti-science paranoid asshole made up on the fly? That "law?"

[coyote]

11. I cannot help but think this was planned.

For what purpose I do not know. However it certainly is a divisive story and will keep the sheeple distracted for awhile.

[PeoViejo]

19. I's not a Law

It's an Edict from an ignorant Reactionary Assh0le.

[Fred Sanders]

24. Love how folks do not see the pandering and abuse of an average citizens liberty.

[Fred Sanders]

21. Some folks, even on science loving DU want this perfectly healthy person back inside the plastic tent

"Hickox will abide by all the self-monitoring requirements of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the state of Maine, Hyman said."

No, lock her up, she could kill us all, where is my blankee?

Kaci Kickox is perfectly healthy, some folks right here not so much, because, fuck the CDC , fuck the twice elected Democratic President, and science, especially the science I do not understand or accept, I is ever so scared.

Join Fox News then, join the fear mongers and climate deniers and propagandists, it will be a better fit for you, no one will object to your paranoia.

[coyote]

31. I agree with you 100%

Unfortunately, fear will always trump common sense. I do know t think she is going to win the theatre of public opinion even with all the science behind her.

[Duckhunter935]

32. quit spreading falsehoods please

she is not going to be in a tent. It is home quarantine with all of the comforts she has. The CDC even says not to go into public areas. I guess you get to pick and choose what rules to follow. I do not think doctors, nurses or police are above the rules.

I do think this all is an overreaction and the quarantine stuff is bull unless you show signs of the sickness.

[heaven05]

57. she has been proven

not to have the disease. Quit spreading fear and absolute submission to so called officials with getting votes in mind. All this quarantine stuff is so obvious and transparent in this election season. Hide!!!!!!! Ebola is coming!!!!!!!!!!!! drip, drip, drip.........

[adigal]

74. No. She has NOT been proven to be disease free. That is why the 21 days quarantine

If after 21 days, she is disease free, THEN she is proven to not have the disease.

This is simple stuff. I don't get why people don't realize that a possibly carrier running around town is a bad idea.

[Fred Sanders]

86. You have no appreciation for the science, it is your right and privilege.

[adigal]

90. I saw you refuse to answer a question posed to you about what happens if she is out and about and

gets sick??? Since you won't address that, nothing you have to say on this subject means anything.

[Marrah_G]

172. ummm she is going to be fine one minute and projectile vomiting the next

The virus just does not work like that.

People freaking out have to assume 2 things:

1) The medical personnel who know this virus up close and and personal, have volunteered to go to one of the poorest places on earth to try and save lives, are coming back to the US and would think nothing of spreading it around.

2) have no regard for their own lives, since early treatment at the first sign of a fever is the best way to sway the odds that they won't die.

[Fred Sanders]

226. People freaking adore those that share their freakout, herd mentality. They side with Cruz and Palin

and Lepage and Chrsitie and even fucking Fox News because they are leading "their" herd, over the cliff of reason and science, quite pathetic, really.

[adigal]

208. The Director of the Maine CDC disagrees with you - may have been too early to test

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/29/after-fight-with-chris-christie-nurse-kaci-hickox-defies-ebola-quarantine-in-maine/?hpid=z3

[heaven05]

221. ohhhh!!!!!

run!!!!! hide!!!!!!! ebola is coming!!!!!!! drip, drip, drip..........

[enlightenment]

88. If you are going to jump on the

bandwagon of bizarre, hyperbolic sarcasm directed at other DUers, please get your facts straight.

Kaci Hickox has not been "proven not to have the disease". She is asymptomatic. Exhibiting no symptoms of the disease. That's a different thing. "Proven not to have the disease" would be testing her blood to determine if she is carrying a viral load. I have not read that this has been done - and you'd think she would mention it, since it would do much to change public perception.

Does she have Ebola? Chances are slim to none. Is the demand for quarantine over the top? Probably - but this isn't just about Kaci Hickox, despite her protestations.

The CDC, despite what has been mentioned in other posts, does recommend levels of quarantine, by the way. It might be voluntary, or it might be compelled. Note the "rather than relying solely on individuals to self-monitor" bit.

First paragraph here, you can read the rest at the link, if you care:

Active monitoring means that the state or local public health authority assumes responsibility for establishing regular communication with potentially exposed individuals, including checking daily to assess for the presence of symptoms and fever, rather than relying solely on individuals to self-monitor and report symptoms if they develop. Direct active monitoring means the public health authority conducts active monitoring through direct observation. The purpose of active (or direct active) monitoring is to ensure that, if individuals with epidemiologic risk factors become ill, they are identified as soon as possible after symptom onset so they can be rapidly isolated and evaluated. Active (or direct active) monitoring could be either conducted on a voluntary basis or compelled by legal order. Active (or direct active) monitoring and prompt follow-up should continue and be uninterrupted if the person travels out of the jurisdiction.

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/exposure/monitoring-and-movement-of-persons-with-exposure.html

[charliea]

103. Yes, she was tested.

From the Wall Street Journal: ..."Ms. Hickox—who tested negative for the virus Saturday and has no Ebola symptoms..."

article found at: http://online.wsj.com/articles/ebola-nurse-kaci-hickox-says-she-wont-self-quarantine-1414582411

So, she is asymptomatic, has no viral load, and has never presented any systems. She's a trained health care professional (and yes a nurse is that!) specializing specifically in infectious disease and the care there of. Oh, and of course she's acting on the advice and recommendations of our best medical professionals. (CDC guidelines)

A quarantine may indeed be within the power of Mr. Christie or Mr. LePage, but they should have a compelling reason to abrogate the rights of any citizen. I don't see it, I hope the courts don't either, and I hope she wins a settlement for false arrest and imprisonment, for Mr. Christie's unwarranted response.

[enlightenment]

141. Thank you for the additional information

and the reasoned response. I did not see the line in the wsj article.

I am not in disagreement as to her rights or to best practice. I am hardily sick of the poo-flinging that seems to have replaced most attempts at rational discourse on this multi-pronged topic.


edited to add a missing article.

[heaven05]

222. her right

to fair compassionate and empathetic treatment at the hand of those cretins in New Jersey at the behest of that political hack is my point. Nothing else. If she is shown to have the disease, still her treatment at the hands of those idiots....hair on fire response. I have read all the affirmations here at DU that NJ did the right thing by her. I would be pissed if I were in her shoes. A tent?????? In the parking lot.

[HERVEPA]

56. Science loving DU? With all the woo I see on this site. Hardly.

[CBGLuthier]

26. She is probably right. She is probably not infected. But if she is wrong she will probably kill

someone but hey rah rah freedom and fuck the man, right?

Arrogant and selfish are the words that come to my mind but fuck the system and fuck common sense, right?

Because she has things to do and any consideration for others is bullshit, right?

Just more proof that stupidity and a decent education are not exactly mutually exclusive.

[heaven05]

47. right

wish they had a hair on fire smilie................

[truebluegreen]

259. We've had exposed people flying on airplanes,

going on cruises, stuck at home with their families, going for 3-mile runs, bowling etc etc etc....tell me, who has been infected so far? Two nurses who had intimate contact with a late-stage, dying patient.

Maybe the nurse isn't the proof that stupidity and a decent education are not mutually exclusive.

[Submariner]

28. 88 gun deaths per day in the U.S.

and Christie and others piss their pants over how many Ebola deaths in the U.S. every day? "0"

Also, about the same number of vehicle accident deaths every day. Get rid of the cars and trucks?

Let's get our priorities straight.

[valerief]

189. ^^^THIS^^^ That Flying Metal Cylinder Disease is more likely to kill you

than ebola.

[azureblue]

219. from a twitter:

1 Ebola death and people want to punish the people fighting it.

Wait till they hear 30,000 Americans die from gunshots each year.

[Hoppy]

29. She has two degrees in epidemiology. That is the study of contageous disease.

Dr. Krispy probably got his medical degree from the same medical institution as dr. Rand. (I don't know if Krispy had to worship Aqua Budda.)

[Fred Sanders]

36. No. She is just a "medic", what does she know, some folks say...the ignorance and demonization is

pathetic.

[AndreaCG]

33. I think she's right but breaking the law's a bad idea

Gives LePage a platform to run and win on.

[Fred Sanders]

37. Holy shit, Batman, ya think LePage may be doing a political ploy? Never!

Go ahead, support LePage, maybe you can cross post on Fox and get your luv'n there. You will get none here.

[AndreaCG]

78. Man are you unnecessarily rude!!!!

Did I say I was HAPPY that this might help LePage? Didn't I say I AGREED with her except for breaking the law? Excuse the fuck out of me for being in law enforcement and knowing if you break the law you will probably suffer consequences. I'll save you the trouble of posting your reply: I'm a fascist pig for having a job in law enforcement in the first place, right?

[Fred Sanders]

80. Then you would know the difference between a law and a fly by your pants regulation?

[AndreaCG]

99. So are you saying the executive orders Obama makes

Aren't legal either? That's what the governor did. He has the power. I disagree with his decision but it's legal for the chief executive to make declarations that have the force of law.

[Fred Sanders]

119. LOL. Presidential EO's versus teabagger pandering, not even a good try at deflection.

[askeptic]

185. umm, this is why she has vowed to challenge its legality. It's not Constitutional and they know it

...because just because a governor makes an edict doesn't mean it's legal and Constitutional. Seems like youve forgotten that there is a Constitution that lays out what people may be imprisoned for, and it trumps all other proclamations.

[AndreaCG]

205. Well it will be up to the courts then

To decide if it is unconstitutional or not. I have said several times that I think LePage is wrong to want a quarantine but whether it is indeed unconstitutional is another matter. Gov Malloy of Ct has imposed one, and I haven't heard about court cases fighting it, even though frankly his use of it is more specious than LaPage's, as one person in quarantine in Ct had NO contact with Ebola patients as he was a tech worker. So time will tell about this matter.

[seveneyes]

38. The 15 minute interlude must be coming up

Obscurity is often hard to hide.

[heaven05]

40. I don't blame her

periood.

[jen63]

67. I don't either.

If people think she's doing this for "fifteen minutes of fame", they're being willfully ignorant. She's trying to set a precedent for all who follow her back home. I don't understand the kiss up and kick down around here.

[JimDandy]

140. Seems to be clear from day 1 that 'setting a precedent' was her new mission...

Her mother and she had discussed on the phone before she arrived in the US that she would be quarantined.

Both sides are disgusting treating the Ebola epidemic like just another political football...here on DU too.

Our side has no answer to the problem of HCWs taking public transportation and possibly becoming sick while traveling. Self-monitoring at home is great...self-monitoring on a 10 hour flight not so much.

[jen63]

241. She doesn't have ebola!

I don't believe for a second that she would have gotten on the airplane if she was symptomatic.

[candelista]

247. How do you know?

Being asymptomatic is not the same as not having Ebola.

[jen63]

249. They may as well be the same,

since the virus can't be passed without symptoms; but I think you know that.

[candelista]

253. But you can BECOME symptomatic.

That's the purpose of quarantining people before they are symptomatic.

[jen63]

254. No need for quarantine

with self monitoring, but I think you know that also. You won't change my mind and I won't change yours. Have a good one.

[candelista]

255. If Obama changes his mind on this issue, will you?

[jen63]

258. Nope.

[JimDandy]

263. No one said she has Ebola! But you knew that.

This is not about NOT BEING symptomatic when boarding a plane for a long flight. It is about the real possibility of a HCW BECOMING symptomatic on a long flight.

There simply is no other way to prevent that from happening except to require HCWs to self-monitor, in place, for 21 days after their last contact with a symptomatic person. While a quarantine like what Christie ordered was/is ridiculous for an asymptomatic 21-day-monitoring HCW, it is prudent for a HCW to not travel long distances on public transportation.

Kickox is a pre-21-days HCW. It was irresponsible of her to have traveled like she did.

[alarimer]

55. Good for her.

No reason for her too. Fuck the pants-wetters.

[seabeckind]

61. Breaking the law?

What law?

OTOH maybe we can set up a special section of Gitmo for health workers who rebel abainst the authority of the state. To make sure they don't have any recourse we can hold them incommunicado.



I must say I'm very surprised at how many people on DU have gone into the panic mode. So what other civil right will we suspend next?

[Fred Sanders]

81. I am surprised, appalled and fucking angry.

[Fumesucker]

210. Not surprised at all now

Not after a substantial portion of DU hared off after the nurses to give them hell based on faulty first reports.

[HockeyMom]

64. She was quarantined in a NJ hospital

and showed no symptoms. So because she is now in a different state, still with no symptoms, she has to start that quarantine all over again? At the very least she should be credited with "time served" in NJ.

[seabeckind]

70. Looked more like a tent to me.

No running water, no sanitary facilities, probably a lot like she was used to in Africa.

In the most exceptional nation this world has ever seen.

Maybe she's a witch ... or even worse ...

[HockeyMom]

73. Very true

People in jails have better living conditions.

[adigal]

66. So, all you people claiming doctors and nurses are smart enough to self-isolate - WRONG!!!!

I agree with those who say to put her butt in an isolated jail cell if she won't abide by the CDD regulations. One would think she would give a damn about the people here. Entitled fool.

[Fred Sanders]

82. She IS abiding by the CDC protocols, it says so right in the article, she refuses the "make up a

regulation on the fly for political pandering" by tea bagger Governors.

[truebluegreen]

260. "self-monitor" "self-isolate" These terms are not synonyms.

[Cobalt Violet]

77. We better stop her from spreading ebola even if she doesn't have it!!!11

Chris Christie is right. She is very sick! And she's spreading teh ebola and where all guinna die!!!!!1111

[Fred Sanders]

83. That is what the anti-science folk feel but are too embarrassed to say. thank you.

[whereisjustice]

84. We have a dangerous contagious disease spreading through the Democratic Party

It's something that we seemed to have picked up from small, despotic, primitive nations.

Authoritarianism.

It makes Ebola look like a common cold.

[Fred Sanders]

89. "Deliver us from evil". When the folks demand it the politicians will pander to it.

I trust my President, the CDC and the science, some are free to not, but then why are they on those site?

I distrust the tea bagger politicians, some now are allied with them, I ask again, are they on the right site?

[locdlib]

124. it's no use, fred. it's like i always say: some people love having their fears fed. critical

thinking and logic be damned. the fear must be fed and the fearful are always looking to be fed by those who are willing to stuff them full with junk.

[Fred Sanders]

127. I am not trying to reason with fear, it is useless as you say, shaming is the only way.

[geek tragedy]

85. threat level orange! Or is it peach? panic! nt

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

102. I'd call it Threat Level Brown

Last edited Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:51 AM - Edit history (1)

considering all the pants-shitting that's going on. OMG it's the Ebola!!!!!!!!1111!!

[Daemonaquila]

91. Good for her.

Science, people. She is an epidemiologist. She is a medical worker on the front lines, who understands the disease, unlike the panicked media and politicians. She knows the risks, and is following CDC - actual scientific - protocols. She is also taking a stand for all the medical personnel fighting Ebola and who are thinking of joining the fight... many of whom will NOT go to help if it means 21 days of unwarranted imprisonment after their tours.

[PADemD]

128. Can she please take her stand alone, in her own home?

The public, who works paycheck-to-paycheck, and small businesses can't afford to share her risks.

[Travelman]

93. I thought she was from Illinois

Not sure where I came up with that before, but for some reason I thought I had read that she was from downstate Illinois somewhere: Bloomington, Champaign, somewhere like that.


Hmph.


Oh well.


ABC says that she says she'll comply with the "self-monitoring" requirements, so that's at least a start.

Maybe a compromise? It seems to me that all of the cases we've seen "up close and personal" here have exhibited themselves within about ten days of exposure. Perhaps she could voluntarily agree to a quarantine of ten days from the day she flew out of Freetown. She got to Newark on Friday, which means that she left Freetown on Thursday. Get her a nice room up at the Attean Lake Lodge through Sunday night and then if she doesn't show any symptoms, send her on her way so long as she keeps self-monitoring.

Seems fair to me.

[jeff47]

149. Why should she have to follow your fear?

The CDC recommends that she take her temperature every day. If she develops a high fever, or starts vomiting or having diarrhea, then she should report to the hospital and be isolated.

The CDC does not recommend quarantine or isolation until she shows symptoms, because she can't transmit Ebola easily to others until she's producing vast quantities of infected bodily fluids.

There's nothing fair about ignoring science to pander to fear for ratings and political gain.

[barbtries]

95. i'm on her side.

all this hysteria and imprisonment is going to keep other health professionals from stepping up, and ultimately increase the spread of the virus. how stupid is that, and how tragic.

[IDemo]

104. Ebola Quarantine Showdown: Nurse Kaci Hickox Threatened With Arrest

A state trooper was parked Wednesday outside the house where a Maine nurse was holed up and vowing to defy a quarantine imposed because she treated Ebola patients in West Africa. The trooper said the nurse, Kaci Hickox, would be arrested if she walked outside.

More-> http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebola-virus-outbreak/ebola-quarantine-showdown-nurse-kaci-hickox-threatened-arrest-n236416

[Marrah_G]

184. Insane pandering to a hysterical public.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

108. She may not have much of a legal leg to stand on.

The CDC is not a legal body, it does not control things like quarantine in the US, so saying you'll 'abide by all the self-monitoring requirements of the CDC' has no legal meaning at all.

For a quickie overview of who DOES get to decide, tale a look at pages 11-16 of this CDC handbook (the one for TB, but the part on who has the powers to 'police' public health issues including quarantine doesn't change.)

http://www.cdc.gov/tb/programs/TBLawPolicyHandbook.pdf

It doesn't really matter what the 'protocols' are. It matters who actually has the legal powers to declare and enforce quarantine, no matter how stupid the basis for such may be.

[TwilightGardener]

114. Nancy Snyderman had less contact with ebola than Hickox, and yet everyone

generally supported her quarantine. Forgive me if I don't understand how hard it is to stay at home for two more weeks, as it would be in Hickox's case. Two weeks, so that in the unlikely event she DOES fall ill, businesses don't have to suffer any economic losses and authorities don't have to tell unsuspecting regular people that they have to watch for signs of a deadly disease--thus terrifying them. Strange that someone who volunteers to help in Sierra Leone under dangerous circumstances would behave so selfishly here--but then, she's better than the rest of us, and a nursing license confers upon her special privileges and powers.

[Fred Sanders]

126. You find it "strange" because you do not believe in the science, I get it.

[candelista]

132. I think some of the opposition to quarantine on this site has to do with AIDS.

In the early days of AIDS, some people wanted to put HIV positive people in quarantine. Castro actually did it. People who know about this have a bad feeling about quarantine of any kind. Hence they oppose quarantine for Ebola. This is an emotional over-generalization, and you can't reason with it.

[TwilightGardener]

134. I agree with that--certainly a big part of it.

[Travis_0004]

125. Ive read she works for the CDC

If she is still a CDC employee she should be fired.

[jeff47]

152. She should be fired for doing what the CDC says she should do.

Makes perfect sense.

[valerief]

192. No, you s/b put on Ignore. Favorite=Gun Control and RKBA.

[Sienna86]

143. Good for her. Love it.

If they arrest her, this will force a lawsuit that I believe will undo these state policies that are based on fear not science.

Does anyone think these medical folks will not take their temperature!? They are serving themselves by doing so. If the virus shows up, quick intervention is key.

[d_legendary1]

150. She was imprisoned in NJ and now Maine wants to do the same?!?!

That makes no fuck'n sense. If she's clean, leave her alone.

[candelista]

151. This looks like a pretty good place for a quarantine.

The home of Theodore Wilbur, boyfriend of Kaci Hickox, the nurse who was released from New Jersey's mandatory quarantine for certain travelers from Ebola-stricken West Africa, is seen in Fort Kent, Maine, October 28, 2014. Hickox, who so far had not arrived at the house, said on Wednesday that she will challenge restrictions by the state of Maine and does not plan to follow guidelines to quarantine herself until November 10. Picture taken October 28, 2014. REUTERS/Joel Page (UNITED STATES - Tags: HEALTH POLITICS)

http://news.yahoo.com/u-nurse-threatens-court-actions-over-maine-quarantine-113730529.html

Good luck to Ted Wilbur!

[Gothmog]

157. Science should control here

This will be a fun lawsuit to watch

[Calista241]

158. Does the government have the right to quarantine people?

Nurse Hickox medical situation aside, does the government have the power to quarantine people and exclude them from the rest of society to prevent the spread of communicable diseases?

Personally, I would say the answer is yes. Thoughts?

[seabeckind]

168. Ask the question the correct way.

Does the gov't of the United States operating within the confines of the Constitution of the United States have the power to incarcerate a citizen without due process?

No.

The executive order of any official does not constitute probable cause. I thought we went over this already.

[candelista]

175. A judge would cite an "overriding state interest."

That lets the government do what it wants, including quarantining people.

[seabeckind]

176. So where is this judge?

Based on what I've seen there was nothing but some governors who said lock her up.

Maybe we can equate this to the Bush renditions. How did you feel about that "overriding state interest"?

[candelista]

180. Where?

Wherever they keep judges. And yes, there is an overriding state interest.

[seabeckind]

187. Ahh, the one who never issued the order.

The one who was never consulted.

Where, BTW, means more than location. It can also mean presence.

[seabeckind]

183. Let's do the other part of your hypothesis.

Let's say the tinhorn governor did follow the law and request a warrant and hearing before a judge. We know there'd be a hearing right away because of habeas.

The judge would hear both sides of the argument, the governor's side (OMFG, we're all going to die) and the CDC's side (presented by her attorney).

Wanna bet which way he'd go?

Wanna bet that's why Christie and Cuomo dropped it like a hot potato?

[candelista]

190. I don't understand your comments.

Your first post said:

Does the gov't of the United States operating within the confines of the Constitution of the United States have the power to incarcerate a citizen without due process?

No.

Actually, the answer is that YES, the US Government has the Constitutional power to put someone in quarantine without due process if there is an overriding state interest to do so.

That's what judges always cite when approving measures that would otherwise be unconstitutional.

And any judge who did this would be right in this case.

[seabeckind]

199. Getting a court order from a judge

IS due process.

Without the judge it is NOT due process.

Now do you understand the comment?

As I said, we were very upset when Bush ordered the renditioning of US citizens without the issuance of a warrant. What is different in this case?

Christie took a citizen on US soil and incarcerated her against her will even tho she was asymptomatic. He did this by executive order. There was no judge, no hearing. He dropped that crazy idea as soon as an attorney showed up. Having the ACLU watching closely didn't help his position much.

If there is an "overriding state interest" it shouldn't be too hard to get a court order, would it? But the fact that she has not tested positive for the virus sure leaves a lot of the overriding out of it, doesn't it?

Maybe this might be a good spot for this:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

[Calista241]

193. Quarantines are allowed under the Public Health and Welfare Act.

Ebola is specifically mentioned as a communicable disease with the quarantine remedy.

[TorchTheWitch]

285. yes, but it's a state power

Each state has the authority to make laws for the general public in the state or for individuals in the state including quarantines which states have done in the past.

This nurse is not above state authority and is required to adhere to whatever the state decides even if it is stupid. If she doesn't agree with the state's decision she has the right to fight that fight within the legal system. She does not have the legal right to blow off the state's authority regardless of how stupid she thinks their decision is concerning her own quarantine or any one else's after her. That's a legal fight to engage in within the legal system.

[CullenBohannon]

170. BS

The tent quarantine in NJ was a bit much but now she's just being stubborn and selfish.

[SpankMe]

179. I agree. n/t

[askeptic]

195. Stubborn and selfish? No, just challenging illegal arrest

So I think she is doing us all a favor and not letting fear, uncertainty and doubt become the basis for government actions. The reason we have these rights is due to the stubbornness of those generations before us. Imagine if in our history, everything was an exception, as you seem to be arguing should be the case here.

[TorchTheWitch]

286. she hasn't been arrested

The state has required her to remain under quarantine which they have the legal right and authority to do. Her defiance of that authority isn't legal. She does have the right to challenge the state's quarantine decision in her case, but she's required to do it through the legal system while still adhering to the state's decision even if she believes their quarantine decision is stupid.

[cstanleytech]

171. Sheesh all this arguing is senseless people. If the CDC thought she should be held

in quarantine she would be and legally they could do it http://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

[tammywammy]

198. I'm on her side.

There's no reason for her to be quarantined. She's following the CDC guidelines, will take her temperature and if she shows symptoms will follow protocol. Ignorance of science and how Ebola works doesn't mean she should be forced to quarantine for 21 days.

[Scairp]

256. Smart people are

And why do they think if she does get sick she would ignore it and go about her life until she starts bleeding from the eyes? It's just absurd. I'm sure she's stressed as it is not knowing if she could develop it. It is just all kinds of wrong to put her through this. Her OR anyone else returning from Africa after having helped treat patients.

[rocktivity]

202. If the problem -- the fear -- is that she could go symptomatic at any second

why was she allowed to get on a commercial flight and leave an Ebola-affected country in the first place? Are her fellow passengers being tracked down and locked in tents? Why not do the quarantining BEFORE being allowed to leave?


rocktivity

[Fred Sanders]

207. The first symptom is always, always, an elevated temperture, the medical folks can figure that out,

and report and then be examined, or isolate. There is no danger, NONE, until symptoms appear, of transmission. If you do not accept that, nothing can be done about it.

You fear is borne of ignorance of the science, nothing will persuade you to abandon the woo and embrace the science, so whatever, keep your fear, just please give the science a chance, not the woo.

[rocktivity]

212. The only thing I "fear" is Ebola being "exported" to other countries

Last edited Fri Mar 1, 2019, 06:41 PM - Edit history (3)

via airplane rather than fruit bat.

"There is no danger of transmission -- NONE -- until symptoms appear"? Then why is it okay to fly if you're asymptomatic, but you need to be locked up the second you step off the plane? It can't be both ways. Do the quarantining where you are, pass a blood test, and then get your plane ticket home: not 100% foolproof, but much saner than what's going on now.


rocktivity