Under conservative assault, the Vatican backtracks on gay comments

[merrily]

Source: CNN

Rome (CNN) -- Under furious assault from conservative Catholics, the Vatican backtracked Tuesday on its surprisingly positive assessment of gays and same-sex relationships.

In a report Monday, the Vatican had said that gays and lesbians have "gifts to offer" the Christian community and acknowledged that same-sex couples can give "precious support" to one other.

The statement, an interim report from a closely watched meeting of Catholic clergy here, was widely praised by liberals. It is believed to be the first time the Vatican has said anything positive about gay relationships.

........

But many conservatives complained that the statement watered down church teaching and did not accurately reflect their discussions here, where nearly 200 Catholic leaders are meeting to debate pastoral approaches to modern family life.

One South African cardinal called Monday's statement, which also included positive language about unmarried couples who cohabitate, "irredeemable."

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/14/world/vatican-backtrack-gays/index.html

---

Damn!

[valerief]

1. Big surprise. Not. nt

[jtuck004]

2. "...said the report on gays and lesbians was a "working document,".." < So they accidentally

treated people with respect, but thought better of it?

Good thing that god thing they talk about is mythical. People might start trusting and believing what they say.

[merrily]

4. I am not an expert on such things, but I don't recall a lot of

premature releases or accidental releases from the Vatican about the pronouncements of the Pope, whether or not ex cathedra.

Maybe I missed them?

[jtuck004]

5. No, I don't recall a lot of public info about premature releases by the pope. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

7. Okay,....THAT brought up some imagery.

[merrily]

8. LOL! Totally unintentional on my part, but good catch.

[jtuck004]

12. I am guessing that is something they probably try to keep under the covers. n/t

[merrily]

33. We only wish!

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

17. The last time a pope issued an ex cathedra pronouncement was in 1950

And the time before that was 1864.

This particular document was an interim document from the Synod of Bishops. Pope Francis is in attendance, but he is deliberately not taking part in the debates because he does not want to dominate the discussion.

[Raine1967]

3. Too bad.. it is out there.

the internet exists.

and also: Cow out of barn.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

6. And just to make sure,...a bunch of conservatives open carried into the Vatican.

[DreamGypsy]

9. Yeah, for a moment there, Religion Incorporated thought a kinder, gentler business plan ...

...might provide some growth in market share and a consequent uptick in revenues.

But the existing consumers and franchises felt threatened, couldn't adapt to the new marketing requirements, feared a loss of moral revenue, and shut it down.

Word has it that the marketing department hopes to recover with a media blitz recreating the good old days of the Inquisition:



Limited test marketing has revealed significant support from the existing base.

[merrily]

10. From Day One, media has acted as though Pope Francis II is revolutionary.

However, he doesn't really say anything revolutionary. Gay priests are okay? Sure, because no priest is supposed to have sex and, long before Francis became Pope, the Catholic Church had finally come to, "gays are fine, as long as they never have sex. It's same gender sex we can't tolerate." Now, he says gays have gifts to offer? Who said they couldn't do a single good thing? So that is not revolutionary, either.

Finally, media seems to be admitting that there is no doctrinal change from Frankie, only a less harsh tone. Why didn't they admit that from Day One?


Meanwhile, America is clearly changing on the issues of gays and it's by far not the only nation that is changing. So, yes, I agree it was a business plan. But why was media his accomplice?

PS: nothing loosens purse strings and spurs action like hate. Sad, but true.

[Ampersand Unicode]

22. Sorry... Had to :)

[defacto7]

11. "irredeemable"?

That's a word?

[merrily]

13. Yep.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/irredeemable

Religious folks know the word "redemption" and its various variations.

[defacto7]

14. So they just flushed unredeemable

for irredeemable? What about irreclaimable? Did they very that various variation too? I say inredeemable, exredeemable.

[Javaman]

19. ... ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredeemable

[merrily]

34. "Unredeemable" is still unflushed. It's not either/or. Use whichever one you prefer

with total confidence that no current dictionary will say otherwise.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/unredeemable



I will leave you to google the other words, though.

[defacto7]

35. actually, I prefer none of them...

[merrily]

36. Excellent point.

[Ampersand Unicode]

24. Paging Inigo Montoya.

[cer7711]

16. "Intrinsically disordered" . . .

. . . is still the hateful phrase the Roman Catholic Church uses to stigmatize LGBT people.

Physician, heal thyself: of prejudice, hate and outmoded forms of pseudo-psychological phrasing that bigots seize upon to justify their bashing.

[Ampersand Unicode]

25. The APA already healed itself of the intrinsic disorder of homophobia in 1973

But leave it to the Catholic Church to reject science as intrinsically disordered too.

[cer7711]

30. Indeed! Good point.

Last edited Thu Oct 16, 2014, 08:45 AM - Edit history (1)

And exactly the reason I used the phrase "pseudo-psychological".

Same-gender sexual attraction had disappeared as a diagnosis of "pathological disorder" from the DSM-IV when I was studying psychology in the early 80s. The stigma attached to gays and gay sex (gasp!) was recognized as being a cultural prejudice, not a valid clinical diagnosis of anything but generalized homophobia of the body politic.

In the same way some of us no longer beat children for using their left (the "devil's&quot hand and force them to write with their right hand, all modern decent people recognize homosexuality as being simply another one of those "infinite variations in infinite diversity" that contribute to the glory and multiplicity of choices for certain self-actualized men and women of a queer nature.

[Ampersand Unicode]

32. Maybe someday it won't be so bad to be right-brained either

...in a left-brained world.

Not exactly a mental disorder but certainly an economic disadvantage these days.

[rpannier]

18. Conservatives fighting to the bitter end

I suppose it's a waste of time to try and point this out but I will

Large organizations have huge bureaucracies.
The longer one president, party or monarch is in power the more people that fill the higher and key positions within a bureaucracy
They got there through guile, back stabbing and butt kissing
They don't go down without a fight

Almost every Bishop and Cardinal was appointed by John Paul II and Benedict.
That's what the Vatican Bureaucracy and hierarchy is filled with are their appointments

To expect any wholesale change in a year, two years or even five is wishful thinking
Short of a wholesale purge replete with midnight raids, kicking down doors, secret murder rooms and tossing bodies from helicopters over the Mediterranean Sea at 2 am, any change you see is going to be slow.

Even in a true monarchy this is true. Study history. Most monarch's who made huge changes either came along when the foundation had been laid for their change or had been on the throne long enough to get his/her own people in the right spots

I would also point as, from the article in the mail that it's the conservative bishops at the Synod who are in attendance that are balking

"...On Tuesday, conservative bishops distanced themselves from the document's unprecedented opening toward gays and divorced Catholics..."

[yardwork]

20. Their original statement was lame and condescending anyway.

The statement that was supposedly such a big step forward (now retracted anyway) was full of condescension and obnoxious phrases such as "those people." While it signaled a step forward, it wasn't anything that was going to make gay people feel particularly welcomed or respected by the Catholic Church.

Ironically, I have found that the Catholics I know are personally very accepting of gay folks. I think that there is a big divide between the way that most American Catholics live and the Church's official position on a lot of things. Polls such as the recent Pew survey support this.

[theHandpuppet]

23. I agree about the disconnect

And the divide seems to be widening.

[yellowcanine]

21. I told you this man would not be amused......

William "Mad Anthony" Donohue of the Catholic League

[iandhr]

26. I am SHOCKED SHOCKED to find gambling going on here.

[sakabatou]

29. Your winnings, sir

[iandhr]

37. Oh, thank you very much.

Everybody out at once!

[whatthehey]

27. hmm..They can't even do empty "tone" PR for the gullible any more. What's Frankie for if not that?

Nobody sensible thought the earlier release meant anything or changed anything substantive any way.

I actually like and agree with (semantically only of course) irredeemable though, FWIW.

[blkmusclmachine]

28. We knew this would happen. The righties determine who god loves, and who god hates.

[AwakeAtLast]

31. OK, but you can't put the toothpaste back into the tube

you can try, but you will not be successful.

The intolerant are dying off, and I think this Pope knows he is on the right side of history. His handlers on the other hand......